Big Professor is Watching You

[Junghalli]

So they decided to do this instead of making the lecture relevant to your grade?

Probably because that would require more serious effort on the part of the administration to fix the problem. Much easier to implement a simplistic solution to stop the symptom than to treat the root cause.

[Samuel]

So they decided to do this instead of making the lecture relevant to your grade?

Probably because that would require more serious effort on the part of the administration to fix the problem. Much easier to implement a simplistic solution to stop the symptom than to treat the root cause.

I know- still, it is funny thinking about their thought process
"Students aren't coming to class because it isn't necesary- they can get all they need from studying"

Which is a problem for some reason. I guess the students might realize that if they can simply learn from books, they might go to a college that actually offers something. So... they solve an entirely different problem.

I for one hope that students show the ingenuity that Americans are know for. Specifically, hiring Mexican immigrnats to do it for them

[Coriolis]

I am, as I have mentioned before, an undergraduate engineering student at Cornell University. Recently, I began a new design class in MAE, and was rather surprised to find their attendance policies. All students are required to carry an "iClicker" (essentially a combination remote/tracking device), uniquely registered to you, that is used to determine if you attend lectures. For each time your iClicker isn't registered, the computer system automatically knocks 2% off your final grade. It is also used at random points in the lecture to determine that everyone is listening -- again, with punitive penalties if you don't click in on time.

In of itself, this isn't so bad (though certainly irritating), but I find it surprising that these sorts of measures are employed. Although I am only in the one class, many classes at my school have started employing some manner of automated system to keep track of students movements. While describing this as Orwellian would be hyperbole, it's certainly a step in that direction. Even more interesting is the school requiring students to undertake steps to keep the system working, passing the workload off onto the people their monitoring.

Is this sort of thing common in other schools? What about the corporate world? I'm aware of companies like Google having amazing ability to track someone through datamining, but this is the first incident I've seen of outright aggressive monitering.

I think you might be exaggerating the situation a bit. The I-clicker doesn't have any sort of tracking device; it just takes in data from questions posed during class and uses that to compose attendance. After all, you have to be there to answer the questions (that still doesn't stop people from sending in "designated clickers"). I don't know where you're getting the "tracking system" from. Also, profs never ask more than a couple questions during lecture. With me, it was 2-3 questions at most. I personally don't mind the system. Profs primarily use this to gauge how well they're conveying lecture material, not to quiz students.

[lazerus]

I am, as I have mentioned before, an undergraduate engineering student at Cornell University. Recently, I began a new design class in MAE, and was rather surprised to find their attendance policies. All students are required to carry an "iClicker" (essentially a combination remote/tracking device), uniquely registered to you, that is used to determine if you attend lectures. For each time your iClicker isn't registered, the computer system automatically knocks 2% off your final grade. It is also used at random points in the lecture to determine that everyone is listening -- again, with punitive penalties if you don't click in on time.

In of itself, this isn't so bad (though certainly irritating), but I find it surprising that these sorts of measures are employed. Although I am only in the one class, many classes at my school have started employing some manner of automated system to keep track of students movements. While describing this as Orwellian would be hyperbole, it's certainly a step in that direction. Even more interesting is the school requiring students to undertake steps to keep the system working, passing the workload off onto the people their monitoring.

Is this sort of thing common in other schools? What about the corporate world? I'm aware of companies like Google having amazing ability to track someone through datamining, but this is the first incident I've seen of outright aggressive monitering.

I think you might be exaggerating the situation a bit. The I-clicker doesn't have any sort of tracking device; it just takes in data from questions posed during class and uses that to compose attendance. After all, you have to be there to answer the questions (that still doesn't stop people from sending in "designated clickers"). I don't know where you're getting the "tracking system" from. Also, profs never ask more than a couple questions during lecture. With me, it was 2-3 questions at most. I personally don't mind the system. Profs primarily use this to gauge how well they're conveying lecture material, not to quiz students.

I use the term "tracking device" because the class shifts between several rooms over the course of a class day and they use it to keep track of which room your in any given time. As for the iClicker, I've been in classes where it was used to quiz students, but here it was explicitly a threat -- failure to vote will be taken as nonattendance will result in a whack to your grade.

[darthdavid]

Well 2 things:
1)There's nothing like this at my current college, but that's not surprising considering I go to rinky-dink little TC3.

2) (completely OT) How are you liking all this cold and snow we've been getting? (Read: Welcome to the fingerlakes...)

[Narkis]

There's nothing remotely like that in not only my college, but the entire country as well. Classes here are divided in two categories. Lectures, where attendance is strictly voluntary and the only consequence for skipping them is that you'll fail the tests, and "laboratories", where attendance is monitored by the good old attendance sheet and you're allowed one absence during the semester. One more, and you'll have to attend the class again next year.

And I can't imagine anything like this getting implemented without 9/10s of the country's colleges closing downs in protests. College students here are generally very protective of their freedoms.

Sorry for my first post being here. I couldn't find any designated newbie board. Please don't kill me!

[Coriolis]

Well 2 things:
1)There's nothing like this at my current college, but that's not surprising considering I go to rinky-dink little TC3.

2) (completely OT) How are you liking all this cold and snow we've been getting? (Read: Welcome to the fingerlakes...)

That's cool, I didn't know there were other members that close. I'm a sophomore, so I've pretty much gotten used to it.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm aware of nothing of the sort at WSU, mercifully. I'd be bitching for the rest of my life if they used something like that, I can't think of a more retarded thing. Especially in engineering, where you sometimes have to skip class to study for class. Fortunately with the current budget crisis the country over (or frankly world over..) I can't see the shitty little things continuing to spread.

[Gil Hamilton]

I don't understand the point of such a thing. Missing class is the sort of thing that punishes itself at exam time or with missed due assignments.

[erik_t]

To throw my hat into the ring, I experienced the use of such a system for giving quizzes in freshman physics at Arizona State circa 2003. The instant feedback was useful both to the professor (so they know if they're properly presenting the material) and for the students (so they know if they're getting it).

There was some grade portion assigned, but it was because the things were technically quizzes, and the clicky-thing was just a convenient way to administrate them.

After our second year or so, multiple-guess quizzes became more difficult to use meaningfully, and the potential benefit eroded as class sizes shrank.

[Morilore]

I don't understand the point of such a thing. Missing class is the sort of thing that punishes itself at exam time or with missed due assignments.

Unless the exams are shitty and the professor is a moron (or under pressure not to fail people for failing). In which case some moron-proof and uncontroversial way of assigning grades is needed.

[darkjedi521]

The school I went to/work at is implemented these things a year ago. Profs are encouraged to use them, and students are required to buy them. I have no idea why RPI is doing this, other than the decision makers seem to be playing buzzword bingo and following market trends. Surprisingly, there hasn't been much protest over this since its included with the school laptop package every freshman is strongly encouraged to purchase, and there are other political issues going on over finances and the perception that the administration wants to turn the place into a liberal arts college.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Of course they want to turn the school into a liberal arts school; liberal arts schools are much more profitable than technical institutes at every level but that of the highest research institutes, because liberal arts schools can milk the students for lots of money with almost no overhead except for buildings and staff costs, which are less for liberal arts profs since they have no other choice except to be on a uni, whereas science personnel can easily go into business or government research institutes. The liberal arts are a huge scam for the most part, increasing debt and duping lots of innocent freshmen into thinking that they can get a worthwhile job with a BA, when they'd be better off going to a vocational school.

[darkjedi521]

I give it 5-10 years tops before an engineering degree from this place isn't worth the paper its printed on. And this place is older than MIT. And figuring out how to make payments on a new $300M arts center and a $175M athletics complex for D3 teams. And I'm going to shut up before I end up venting.

[Karrick]

The Rochester Institute of Technology was attempting to implement something like this in 2005, when I was a freshman. I had to buy one of the damn things for 50 bucks to use in my chem lecture. They said I'd be able to sell it back for 25 when the course was over, but the professor could never figure out how to work them properly (even with somebody from the company peddling this shit there to help), and we promptly forgot about them. I remembered it by the end of the year, but the bookstore was no longer buying them back then. As far as I know they never got implemented as more than a pilot program. I know they didn't use them ever again in any of my engineering, math, physics, or liberal arts classes after that. I couldn't comment on the bio and chem departments, but the evidence suggests that RIT dropped the idea like a ton of bricks.

Probably so they could spend money on making the school "green" by building an "innovation center" with glass walls in Rochester. Because that's not going to cost a fortune to heat in winter or anything.

[The Jester]

I'm surprised this hasn't been sabotaged yet. At MIT, they'd probably have modified the system to order 15 pizzas or set off the fire alarm or something by now.

The system could implement some challenge-response system which would make it difficult to reverse engineer. However, if you wanted to screw up the system, the easiest thing would be to jam it (so everybody would be "absent" from class). Though it'll probably operate at 2.4 GHz so you'll probably end up blacking out WLAN and bluetooth while you're at it.

I have also worked in research for indoor positioning and this sort of field is of interest to the corporate world, but the interest (at least in Finland) is mostly for the sake of convenience.

[Marcus Aurelius]

There's nothing remotely like that in not only my college, but the entire country as well. Classes here are divided in two categories. Lectures, where attendance is strictly voluntary and the only consequence for skipping them is that you'll fail the tests, and "laboratories", where attendance is monitored by the good old attendance sheet and you're allowed one absence during the semester. One more, and you'll have to attend the class again next year.

That's pretty much the same system as in Finland, or at least it was like that in the 1990s. However, there was a third category: some lectures required 80% attendance for passing, but that is fairly rare. For labs one or two absences for "non-specified" reasons were usually allowed depending on the duration of the class. Sick leaves (with a note signed by a doctor or nurse) and other force majeur type things were not included in that count.

In humanities there are usually only very few compulsory classes since they don't have any lab work. Seminars are compulsory for them, but typically they are not as numerous as lab classes in sciences or engineering. I know people who have graduated from humanities without attending practically any lectures after the first year.

[Silver Jedi]

I had to use one of those things in one of my classes (a first year comp-sci class), but it was hardly what I would call orwellian. It's not like it's a GPS tracker students have to keep on them at all times or something. We just used it to take a little multiple choice quiz every day, that was as often as not just a participation grade (which all together were, like, 5% of the final grade). My professor usually used it as a quick, immedieate indication of who in the room had actually done the reading before hand, so he would know what to expect when posing questions to the class, etc.

I don't see how this is any worse than any other class that takes attendance (i.e. most freshman classes), it's just a slightly more expensive way to do it. I know the poor TAs that would have otherwise had to grade 100+ quizzes by hand appreciate it though.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

You are lucky if you are allowed any absences. At my school, we are allowed ZERO...excused absences.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You are lucky if you are allowed any absences. At my school, we are allowed ZERO...excused absences.

That's really screwed up. I don't think that would even be legal in most European countries, since the right to sick days are protected by law and university students are no exception.

[Rye]

You are lucky if you are allowed any absences. At my school, we are allowed ZERO...excused absences.

So you're not allowed to go to funerals or a hospital if a parent or sibling has been in a car crash? What the fuck is wrong with your school?

[Sky Captain]

In University of Latvia where I study there is no such thing. Most of the lectures are completely voluntary. To successfully graduate you need to finish all lab works (if there are any associated with lecture in question), attend seminars or tests which there are usually 1 or 2 during semester and pass the exams at the end of the semester. Here many students also have a job somewhere, it would be very difficult for them to attend all lectures and still have their job.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

So you're not allowed to go to funerals or a hospital if a parent or sibling has been in a car crash? What the fuck is wrong with your school?

It's fucked up. Courses are like little fiefdoms. That's what's wrong with it. Technically, the school has "rules," but doesn't enforce any of them, so they are as good as useless. And you can't complain, or else you will paint a bullseye on your back. I complained once that a professor routinely cut a three hour course by 2 hours because she wanted to shop, and it didn't go over well. I learned my lesson

They can pretty much do whatever they want here. We are "allowed" to go, but don't get make ups and lose participation points.

[ArmorPierce]

Just the other day I had a problem with a professor of mine. I was attending his Advanced Accounting II class yesterday for the first time in the semester (classes started this week) and he informed us of his attendance policy. I believe you are allowed one absence before it starts counting against you (or it was one emergency absent). I have a Accounting/Finance networking event that I am going to attend next week to attempt to get a job. Since this school doesn't really help Accounting majors in attaining internships or jobs, you are pretty much on your own to get it. After class I went to him to inform him that I will not be able to attend class next week in order to attend this event and he starts flipping out on me saying "What are you going for, you think you're going to find a job?!" and "I hate it when students miss my class!" Obviously, I'm at school so that I can get a job. I am from a working-class immigrant family and don't have family, family friends, or co-workers to hook me up with an accounting job which is how a lot of people get an public accounting job. The school also doesn't provide any assistance. He expects me to miss this opportunity and not have a job once I get out (I am a senior) so that I don't offend him and miss his class.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I am pretty sure that such a procedure would be illegal in most of Europe.

My school, back in 1994, introduced a system where we had to swipe electronic cards through data readers at least 3 times a day (arrival, leaving at lunch and coming back after lunch) to monitor attendance. This was in the UK.