Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Azron_Stoma »

another question regarding the little ship that made a big impact on the vs debate, all sources say that it is 200 gigatons per shot, but since this weapon has 4 barrels, would it mean that each barrel fires 200 gigatons? or does each barrel fire only 50 gigatons?

I started thinking the 50 to maintain a conservative estimate, but after looking at the shield strength able to withstand 16,730,401 megatons per second (I now understand the difference between a watt and a joule :oops: ) that suggests that even an Acclamators full 12 turrets, with 200 gigatons each, firing 1 shot every 2 seconds, would only be 12,000 gigatons per second,

this brings up an interesting question regarding shielding strengths and how the shields react to damage and how the numbers come into play, it was my interpritation that star wars shields function largely the way they do in most of the games like empire at war and galaxies (minus the whole solid-objects-go-through-starship-shielding bs that EAW has)

in that they have a set charge that drains but recharge at a certain rate, I would have expected to see both a Joule rating and a Watt rating, the joule being, in video game terms the "HP" of the shields, while the Watt rating being the "recovery rate" of the shields.

the ICS book having only a watt rating initially suggested to me that the shields are an all or nothing affair, that nothing below that rating can penetrate but anything above it can.

Aside from just how arbitrary that seems, the fact that it refers to it as "peak" shielding suggests that it can be whittled down and overwhelmed, if anyone can give a description of how this works? There are scenes in the films where the shields take damage over time, but the ship itself doesn't until the shields fail, like how the Falcon didn't take any damage from the fighters until the warnings went off that they were losing shields. if the TIE fighters can only dish out 2 kilotons per shot, and padme's ship shields have a peak of 478 megatons per second, how could 4 fighters bring the shields on the falcon down so fast if they can only dish out 16 kilotons per second?

my last attempt at making a post like this was misunderstood as me trying to prove a point, i'm not trying to prove anything, I am merely asking questions for clarification, if I got anything wrong please be polite and don't act like i'm trying to stir up trouble.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Darth Wong »

Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of ambiguity in a lot of those statements, as you have obviously noticed. It is still very difficult to translate those shield figures into concrete predictions because we don't have a set of fully defined statements and equations to work with: just a specification whose underlying mechanism is not fully understood.

Suppose I told you that I had a piece of material which is rated to take 5000 lbs. What does that mean, exactly? Is that a yield strength figure per unit area for the material? Is it a tensile figure for that particular object of that particular size? Is it the same compressive as it is tensile? Does it refer to failure or inelastic yield? Does it include a safety factor? There are a lot of different ways to interpret that, and we're running into the same problem with some of these figures.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Kodiak »

Darth Wong wrote:Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of ambiguity in a lot of those statements, as you have obviously noticed. It is still very difficult to translate those shield figures into concrete predictions because we don't have a set of fully defined statements and equations to work with: just a specification whose underlying mechanism is not fully understood.

Suppose I told you that I had a piece of material which is rated to take 5000 lbs. What does that mean, exactly? Is that a yield strength figure per unit area for the material? Is it a tensile figure for that particular object of that particular size? Is it the same compressive as it is tensile? Does it refer to failure or inelastic yield? Does it include a safety factor? There are a lot of different ways to interpret that, and we're running into the same problem with some of these figures.
The problem reminds me of a Simpson's episode where Homer is trying to buy a bomb shelter and the salesman says "It'll take a 200 mega-ton blast. No more, no less". Trying to understand limitations of sci-fi is very tricky, and usually the best way to do so is look at on-screen footage and the scores of calculations done by qualified fans and experts. Also, often-times a quick letter to an author or university professor can help steer you in the right direction.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Ghost Rider »

Kodiak wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of ambiguity in a lot of those statements, as you have obviously noticed. It is still very difficult to translate those shield figures into concrete predictions because we don't have a set of fully defined statements and equations to work with: just a specification whose underlying mechanism is not fully understood.

Suppose I told you that I had a piece of material which is rated to take 5000 lbs. What does that mean, exactly? Is that a yield strength figure per unit area for the material? Is it a tensile figure for that particular object of that particular size? Is it the same compressive as it is tensile? Does it refer to failure or inelastic yield? Does it include a safety factor? There are a lot of different ways to interpret that, and we're running into the same problem with some of these figures.
The problem reminds me of a Simpson's episode where Homer is trying to buy a bomb shelter and the salesman says "It'll take a 200 mega-ton blast. No more, no less". Trying to understand limitations of sci-fi is very tricky, and usually the best way to do so is look at on-screen footage and the scores of calculations done by qualified fans and experts. Also, often-times a quick letter to an author or university professor can help steer you in the right direction.
To be honest, this is why Mike, Saxton, Ender, Connor, Wilkens and a whole slew of others use lower limits of calculations. It's that most take this as an absolute without realizing that it is no such thing, and is based on a number of variables that they themselves note and use to come with something.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Stark »

He's asking about how the specific mechanics work, and nobody knows beyond 'must exceed peak output in short period of time to win'. The idea that shields have hitpoints is odious and stupid in the extreme, but one that many sci-fi authors are extremely enamoured of. :)
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Darth Wong »

Stark wrote:He's asking about how the specific mechanics work, and nobody knows beyond 'must exceed peak output in short period of time to win'. The idea that shields have hitpoints is odious and stupid in the extreme, but one that many sci-fi authors are extremely enamoured of. :)
We don't even know about the "must exceed peak output in short period of time to win" thing. The only thing we can irrefutably conclude is that the underlying systems are capable of moving enormous amounts of energy in a short period of time. It does give us an idea of the kinds of orders of magnitude of energy and power that their engineers must be accustomed to dealing with, but narrowing it down to a prediction in a specific situation is difficult, unless the difference in magnitude is enormous.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Azron_Stoma wrote:another question regarding the little ship that made a big impact on the vs debate, all sources say that it is 200 gigatons per shot, but since this weapon has 4 barrels, would it mean that each barrel fires 200 gigatons? or does each barrel fire only 50 gigatons?
Good question. We don't know. We know that they weapon placement can fire 200 gigatons per shot. Conservatively, we should assume each quintuple emplacement can fire a salvo of 200 megatons at maximum intensity. But of course, that could be different, as you point out. We don't know the rate of fire, we don't know how rate of fire relates to emission intensity (i.e., you'd expect that you could cycle the weapon more rapidly if the firepower was lower, but whether this is true and to what extent is not known).
Azron_Stoma wrote:I started thinking the 50 to maintain a conservative estimate, but after looking at the shield strength able to withstand 16,730,401 megatons per second (I now understand the difference between a watt and a joule :oops: ) that suggests that even an Acclamators full 12 turrets, with 200 gigatons each, firing 1 shot every 2 seconds, would only be 12,000 gigatons per second,
Of course, most SW weapons display higher rates of fire than once every two seconds. On the other hand, the Acclamator-class is an armed and armored amphibious landing platform. Depending on how vessels like the Acclamator are actually expected to function operationally, it may not be controversial at all that it lacks the firepower to effectively combat other ships in its class, being expected to use relatively light fire in support of amphibious operations while being protected against heavier firepower from dedicated anti-ship weapons systems. As a very general analogy, I'm sure some classes of Coast Guard cutter equipped with machine guns and light cannon may have trouble sinking ships of similar class.
Azron_Stoma wrote:this brings up an interesting question regarding shielding strengths and how the shields react to damage and how the numbers come into play, it was my interpritation that star wars shields function largely the way they do in most of the games like empire at war and galaxies (minus the whole solid-objects-go-through-starship-shielding bs that EAW has)
This I doubt, their mechanisms are very simplistic. Rather I should say the assumption should be that the game mechanics share a similar relationship as combat games set in a modern day "realistic" setting are to real life: not much.
Azron_Stoma wrote:in that they have a set charge that drains but recharge at a certain rate, I would have expected to see both a Joule rating and a Watt rating, the joule being, in video game terms the "HP" of the shields, while the Watt rating being the "recovery rate" of the shields.
Generally my hypothesis, that I detailed with Mad here is the following (itself a simplification):

You have the shield itself, composed of exotic force fields, some invisible cloud of exotic superconducting matter, or some combination or hybrid. The shield itself deflects and re-radiates absorbed energy where possible, otherwise it is absorbed and then channeled into heat sinks which store the waste heat until the radiator systems can dump it. So the heat transfer between the shield and the heat sinks probably has sustainable maximum wattage and specific heat. The heat sinks have a maximum heat capacity, and the radiators have a limit on how fast they can dump waste heat. Any part along this is susceptible to failure.
Azron_Stoma wrote:the ICS book having only a watt rating initially suggested to me that the shields are an all or nothing affair, that nothing below that rating can penetrate but anything above it can.
Of course I think it goes without saying that even if the wattage is arbitrarily high but the total energy content is very low, the heat capacity of the system can simply absorb it (especially the heat sinks) even if it cannot be radiated away as fast.
Azron_Stoma wrote:Aside from just how arbitrary that seems, the fact that it refers to it as "peak" shielding suggests that it can be whittled down and overwhelmed, if anyone can give a description of how this works? There are scenes in the films where the shields take damage over time, but the ship itself doesn't until the shields fail, like how the Falcon didn't take any damage from the fighters until the warnings went off that they were losing shields. if the TIE fighters can only dish out 2 kilotons per shot, and padme's ship shields have a peak of 478 megatons per second, how could 4 fighters bring the shields on the falcon down so fast if they can only dish out 16 kilotons per second?
We don't know what the TIE maximum fire rate and maximum firepower is. The heat sinks will have to be filled first. And of course the shielding systems could be vulnerable to simple fatigue failure rather than be instantaneously overwhelmed. We don't know the exact mechanics of shields. They do have "seams" and "thickness" and must be "angled". Presumably different types, angles, and volumes of fire may stand a chance at penetrating without being fully absorbed by the shields. And I don't remember the Falcon ever being about to be destroyed by TIEs, only Star Destroyers.

I hope this was helpful, if complexifying and complicating.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Ender »

Shields, heh.

The single rating we do know can be thought of as an "overall" number, that they can capture, store, and reradiate that much energy that fast. And while it's more than we had, it isn't too useful itself.

Off the top of my head we would need to know the following to try and come close to answering the questions here

* Physical nature - volumetric vs planar vs whatever. Not a detailed explanation, but a solid description of properties to it.
* Some kind of measure of the time frame to diffuse energy within the shield
* Instantaneous energy capacity
* Total energy storage capacity
* "scattering" gradient of the shield
* Probability per given unit of bolt scattering as it interacts with the shield
* Similar, something about what triggers scattering - is it related to incoming angle, distance passed through shield, etc
* Something about how you "angle" the shields
* How "angling" the shields alters defenses - greater chance for scattering vs deflection of shot vs concentration of shields
* Something about the transfer of momentum from shields to the ship
* How shields interact with the environment and thus the protected object (momentum conservation within the shield, aerodynamics, etc)
* Observed selective permissibility of shields (visible light gets through, what else?)
* Power drain of shields and how it relates to properties


I'm sure Mike or someone could come up with more. Point is, it would take pretty much a book all by itself to explain shields, not just a few blurbs.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Connor MacLeod »

We could infer a heat sink capacity from the dissipation rate (the one number we do know) but it doesnt really help us much. The ICS shielding figures are generlaly more useful for telling us the magnitude of the defensive capability. For Vs debating its probably more worthwhile to take "sustained firepower" and "how long it takes a ship to be destroyed" - examples and numbers do exist (ranging from seconds to hours)
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Vympel »

* Observed selective permissibility of shields (visible light gets through, what else?)
I noticed something very interesting when watching RotS the other day. The Invisible Hand's hangar shield - implied to be dangerous given Obi-Wan's comment and the necessity for Anakin to destroy it's generator - there's a shot of the Vulture Droids flying away from the ship - after we see them close-up when they "jump" off the ship's hull. Four Tri-Fighters can be observed flying out of the hangar, through the shield - which distorts (think like pushing through some sort of bubble) before springing back into place after their passage- but it doesn't "break".

A few ideas off of the top of my head:-

* This type of shield is "one-way" - i.e. it stops solid objects getting in, but not solid objects getting out. Clearly, it cannot stop all matter getting out, or else the hangar wouldn't have depressurized on shield failure; or

* The shield only stops small, fast objects getting through, or large, slow objects getting through - like the Gungan shield in TPM.

Can anyone think of anything else.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Vympel wrote:there's a shot of the Vulture Droids flying away from the ship - after we see them close-up when they "jump" off the ship's hull.
I thought the Invisible Hand had its shields down for that last part of the battle?

The Gungan shields around their cities also somehow stop water from getting in, but anything can just push through it no problem. Plus, when Obi-wan and Qui-gon passed through it, they weren't wet IIRC.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Ender »

The Gungan shield has a few odd quirks on its own. The water of the lake is extremely clear, like what one would see in a tropical vacation spot. The Jedi (and us) can see very clearly for quite a distance. Yet there is little to no ambient light from the sun reaching the city, implying it must be at considerable depth. But at the same time, none of the characters experience any problems from the pressure that you would expect unprepared ungeared people to deal with. Even if you want to put that down to them being Jedi and Jar Jar's alien physiology, the RPG and other sources have regular people making a similar journey without anything to deal with it. So somehow the city is near the surface, but something occludes the light, keeping it dark there. Given that it is a "hidden city", that may be canon evidence for the Gungans possessing cloaking technology.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Darth Ruinus »

The lake that led to the Gungan city was in a swamp, maybe that covers some of the sunlight? Also, it could be that we can see clearly in the water because of all the lights from the Gungan city.

I also wonder whether or not only certain "parts" of that Gungan shield actually let things through. Otherwise any small accident can lead to people, animals, equipment being accidentally passed through the walls, which might not be dangerous to the Gungans themselves, but could damage computers or equipment.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Darth Ruinus wrote:The lake that led to the Gungan city was in a swamp, maybe that covers some of the sunlight? Also, it could be that we can see clearly in the water because of all the lights from the Gungan city.
The fact that it is a swamp means there should be a great deal of particulate matter suspended in the water. There isn't, which is puzzling. The fact that we easily see the lights is in part what confirms that it is so clear, as it should be cloudy and blocking the light. It is a lot harder to block the sun then it is streetlights. So we have unnaturally clear water and strangely obscured natural light.
I also wonder whether or not only certain "parts" of that Gungan shield actually let things through. Otherwise any small accident can lead to people, animals, equipment being accidentally passed through the walls, which might not be dangerous to the Gungans themselves, but could damage computers or equipment.
More interesting is the fact that as seen in the film, there is the implication that the gungans have some kind of voyeur/panticopian streak to their society. At any given moment, you can see what is going on in someone elses home. It's reality TV taken to the next level.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Ender wrote:The fact that it is a swamp means there should be a great deal of particulate matter suspended in the water. There isn't, which is puzzling. The fact that we easily see the lights is in part what confirms that it is so clear, as it should be cloudy and blocking the light. It is a lot harder to block the sun then it is streetlights. So we have unnaturally clear water and strangely obscured natural light.
Gah, I forgot about that. Swamp water = dirty murky water.
More interesting is the fact that as seen in the film, there is the implication that the gungans have some kind of voyeur/panticopian streak to their society. At any given moment, you can see what is going on in someone elses home. It's reality TV taken to the next level.
This part of Otoh Gunga is called City Bigspace which seems to be some kind of tourist area, which might explain why there don't seem to be any walls. Gungans didn't trust foreigners, so it would make some type of sense that they would want to be able to keep on eye on them. What better way than with transparent walls? :D

On the other hand, they did have at least some walls. Probably in the residential areas of their city. That ring looks like some kind of bar or apartment complex, and those spheres at the bottom look like some type of building. Unfortunately, I can't get a better look to make sure.

Oh, their bubbles were bioengineered. They did have special entry areas.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Connor MacLeod wrote:We could infer a heat sink capacity from the dissipation rate (the one number we do know) but it doesnt really help us much. The ICS shielding figures are generlaly more useful for telling us the magnitude of the defensive capability. For Vs debating its probably more worthwhile to take "sustained firepower" and "how long it takes a ship to be destroyed" - examples and numbers do exist (ranging from seconds to hours)
Even implying that it works like a heat sink is an assumption; there is really so little we know about how shields are supposed to work, and I doubt the situation is ever going to improve, what with unapologetic imbeciles like Karen Traviss in positions of power over the direction of the literary franchise.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Darth Wong wrote: Even implying that it works like a heat sink is an assumption; there is really so little we know about how shields are supposed to work, and I doubt the situation is ever going to improve, what with unapologetic imbeciles like Karen Traviss in positions of power over the direction of the literary franchise.
oh god. Now i've got the mental picture of Traviss trying to write an ICS-style technical document

thanks a lot Wong.....


I don't suppose there's anymore chance that Dr. Saxton could write another tech-manual and describe how shields work in more detail. Wasn't the Ep II ICS sort of a one-shot deal for him?
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Darth Wong wrote: Even implying that it works like a heat sink is an assumption; there is really so little we know about how shields are supposed to work, and I doubt the situation is ever going to improve, what with unapologetic imbeciles like Karen Traviss in positions of power over the direction of the literary franchise.
True to an extent, though we know shield heat sinks and radiators exist on the ships as they're clearly labeled on the ICS. My point was is that we know that some shields are capable of dissipating X watts, which can (Depending on timeframe) translate to different energy figures. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that most shields can dissipate at least a second's worth of output, particularily since (as I noted) we know shields don't "instantly" fail under bombardment.

Again, I know its not precise, but it does give us a rough benchmark (though I am aware for vs debate purposes not everyone will be "reasonable.")
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Darth Wong »

The fact that it can "dissipate X watts" does not tell us that it acts just like a conventional heat sink. The fact that the system includes heat sinks also does not tell us that it acts just like a conventional heat sink. One can generate inferences by making a few assumptions, but you can't draw a straight logical line from A to B because there are just too many unknowns.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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Darksider wrote:oh god. Now i've got the mental picture of Traviss trying to write an ICS-style technical document

thanks a lot Wong...
You mean something like The Essential Guide to the Star Wars Military?
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

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"All technology is based on the pure awesomeness-output of Mandalorians: shields function by radiating awesomeness, generators are actually the domiciles of Mandalorians designed to capture the radiating awesomeness of their residents, weapons are the focused awesomeness of Mandalorians. How the Republic functioned at all before the cloning of even a handful of Mandalorians is a matter of much debate. General consensus is that the awesomeness of Mandalorians bends the rules of space-time itself, perpetuating backwards to the origin of the universe." - Essential Guide to the Mandalorian Star Wars Military, p1.*


*This has been a spoof, it is only a spoof. Had this been an actual excerpt, I would be unable to transcribe the text, as I would have gouged out my own optical organs. :)
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Vympel »

I thought the Invisible Hand had its shields down for that last part of the battle?
I'm talking about the hangar shield.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Darth Wong wrote:The fact that it can "dissipate X watts" does not tell us that it acts just like a conventional heat sink. The fact that the system includes heat sinks also does not tell us that it acts just like a conventional heat sink. One can generate inferences by making a few assumptions, but you can't draw a straight logical line from A to B because there are just too many unknowns.
so here's a question then. Is it unreasonable to assume the radiators dissipate energy continuously? I would think sustained operation is not unreasonable (at least as long as the shields have work to do that is.)
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Darth Wong »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The fact that it can "dissipate X watts" does not tell us that it acts just like a conventional heat sink. The fact that the system includes heat sinks also does not tell us that it acts just like a conventional heat sink. One can generate inferences by making a few assumptions, but you can't draw a straight logical line from A to B because there are just too many unknowns.
so here's a question then. Is it unreasonable to assume the radiators dissipate energy continuously? I would think sustained operation is not unreasonable (at least as long as the shields have work to do that is.)
It's not too bad to assume that it can dissipate energy at the specified rate, but you still can't assume the whole system acts just like a conventional heat sink.
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Re: Turbolasers, shields and 200 gigaton figure

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Is there some specific alternative you had in mind, or is that just a general warning? I'm trying to go by what I can remember Curtis saying about his intentions on shielding and such when he wrote the ICSes.

Edit: And the reason I asked about the continuous is that if it is reasonable to assume it dissipates continuously, ,then its likely that the dissipation rates could be interpreted in terms of "joules/second" - ex: we know IIRc the Acclmator had a 7e22w dissipation rate, which means it potentially could handle up to 7e22 joules a second (or less energy over a shorter timeframe.) I would imagine that also means the shields could absorb and hold that much energy BEFORE it is dissipated. Alternately, I suppose one could assume that, say, an ISD could absorb at least one broadside from another ISD without its shields failing.
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