Ace Combat 4's "Strategy"

[Edward Yee]

Any notion of doing AC5 as well Hawkeye?

I'll think about it, but until I get my hands on a working PS2 it won't happen soon. Also, I keep hearing people say otherwise, but I won't be able to know whether or not AC5's plot is bullshit until I play it.

Zero should be cool enough to do -- I won't ask for 6, of course.

I wonder if CaptHawkeye can do a mini-essay on elite army/naval ground forces?

I was thinking about doing a light hearted Tabular Record of Movement for Erusean Iowa Class battleship Tanager, from its construction in AltEarth's "1940s" to its death as the flagship of the Aegir Fleet.[/quote][/quote]How do we know that it was that old, if Erusean strategy was still in that era?

[Edward Yee]

As for AC5, I will leave it up to you how far "Belka was trying to fuck Osea and Yuktobania" will be able to go as a rationalization for anything not sensible from either side.

[Big Orange]

I was thinking about doing a light hearted Tabular Record of Movement for Erusean Iowa Class battleship Tanager, from its construction in AltEarth's "1940s" to its death as the flagship of the Aegir Fleet.

The sinking of which not only provokes the slamming of fists down onto tables back in Farbanti, but also the flipping over of same said tables and the throwing of their accompanying chairs halfway accross the room.

Although it is motived mostly be artistic license, from the first mission onwards you as frontline pilot can listen into what Erusean units are saying over the air waves, including naval and army units far below, in the heat of battle. That sounds like a pretty serious compromise.

GHETTO EDIT: National flag for the Federal Republic of Erusea

[Adrian Laguna]

Re: Ofnir/Grabacr... they can't have just been talking out of their asses? I admit that these didn't bother me because thanks to "The Four Horsemen," I'd actually abandoned Ace Combat 5.

Ironically a mission you could have skipped, since the missions branch after Blind Spot depending on whether you choose "Yes" or "No" when Chopper asks you whether you liked a song. Instead of Four Horsemen you would have played Chain Reaction, which doesn't require precise timing, but does require you to dodge ManPADS.

[Setzer]

Although it is motived mostly be artistic license, from the first mission onwards you as frontline pilot can listen into what Erusean units are saying over the air waves, including naval and army units far below, in the heat of battle. That sounds like a pretty serious compromise.

Well, the Eruseans did shut down almost all the radio and computer setups not in military hands. They might have been forced to take such measures because they had trouble keeping things secure. And if resistance sympathizers can sabotage Yellow Squadron equipment, they might have been able to do far worse to less prestigious units.

[Big Orange]

Well, the Eruseans did shut down almost all the radio and computer setups not in military hands. They might have been forced to take such measures because they had trouble keeping things secure. And if resistance sympathizers can sabotage Yellow Squadron equipment, they might have been able to do far worse to less prestigious units.

Or it could down to the ISA having alround superior electronics and communications, after all they had many satellites and spy planes as well, things the FRE were deficient in. The Erusea military likely used slightly old but familiar radios that can be occassionally tapped into during battle without the help of insurgents (although you see a group of insurgents using a laptop).

[Edward Yee]

Re: Ofnir/Grabacr... they can't have just been talking out of their asses? I admit that these didn't bother me because thanks to "The Four Horsemen," I'd actually abandoned Ace Combat 5.

Ironically a mission you could have skipped, since the missions branch after Blind Spot depending on whether you choose "Yes" or "No" when Chopper asks you whether you liked a song. Instead of Four Horsemen you would have played Chain Reaction, which doesn't require precise timing, but does require you to dodge ManPADS.

*Gets shot down repeatedly in Valley of Kings*

No thank you... admittedly, Four Horsemen would still be an impediment because I want the damn FALKEN. Doesn't help that due to getting no indication of which is which, if you got it wrong the first time (as I did) you'd have to start over. That, and in AC5 I recall having a hard time making enough money per mission to be continually able to afford a good enough plane for myself and for the three wingmen... (This is even if I used a two-tiered system.) In contrast, in Zero I had no problem keeping up money-wise; same goes for 04.

[Edward Yee]

What the hell?! Apparently there's a Japan-only Project Aces DVD, with four trailers for Shattered Skies, seven for The Unsung War, and two for The Belkan War. As it uses the ACZ screen/GUI style and sounds for the menu screens, I have no idea if this was a separate DVD or bonus data found only on the Japanese ACZ disc...

[Vendetta]

No thank you... admittedly, Four Horsemen would still be an impediment because I want the damn FALKEN. Doesn't help that due to getting no indication of which is which, if you got it wrong the first time (as I did) you'd have to start over.

Four Horsemen isn't that difficult, really. Just watch the mission clock carefully and use a plane you're familiar with, and you should be able to get into position to knock out the radars on time (you actually have a 3-4 second window around the "now")

That, and in AC5 I recall having a hard time making enough money per mission to be continually able to afford a good enough plane for myself and for the three wingmen... (This is even if I used a two-tiered system.) In contrast, in Zero I had no problem keeping up money-wise; same goes for 04.

Don't bother, initially, spending money on planes for your wingmen. They won't get much benefit from them because they're all rubbish. By the time I finished my save off by S ranking everything, I had something like a 20:1 kill ratio between me and all four wingmen put together.

[Edward Yee]

Four Horsemen isn't that difficult, really. Just watch the mission clock carefully and use a plane you're familiar with, and you should be able to get into position to knock out the radars on time (you actually have a 3-4 second window around the "now")

The heck, I thought it was one second! Problem probably was that I followed a FAQ where I kept upgrading my plane to the point that I never got used to/familiar with any one plane, and my tendency for the mission would be to accelerate til I was close, then suddenly hold onto the airbrake in hopes that it would control my forward movement just enough that I could be rightthere (to minimize launch-to-impact time) when Nagase called "mark." Having to do this four consecutive times didn't help either. If I do return to it, I'll definitely do the other branch the first time around; after all, I take it that I can actually make enough money on Very Easy to actually complete a first playthrough, then come back later for a "proper" run... unless only Normal makes enough money, in which case it'll be Normal for the first. AC Zero is the only one I know I "first-runned" on Normal.

Don't bother, initially, spending money on planes for your wingmen. They won't get much benefit from them because they're all rubbish. By the time I finished my save off by S ranking everything, I had something like a 20:1 kill ratio between me and all four wingmen put together.

Hmm... so when will I need to buy more than one aircraft that's not the F-4 Phantom II? Because I do know what you mean by wingman-suck. Seriously, Pixy, Shamrock, and even PJ -- and of course, every ally called in 6 -- were useful. Hell, at least Pixy was willing to join in Zero's masturbating Cipher/its players with the named aces' dialogue!

[Starglider]

Four Horsemen isn't that difficult, really. Just watch the mission clock carefully and use a plane you're familiar with, and you should be able to get into position to knock out the radars on time (you actually have a 3-4 second window around the "now")

The heck, I thought it was one second! Problem probably was that I followed a FAQ where I kept upgrading my plane to the point that I never got used to/familiar with any one plane, and my tendency for the mission would be to accelerate til I was close, then suddenly hold onto the airbrake in hopes that it would control my forward movement just enough that I could be rightthere (to minimize launch-to-impact time) when Nagase called "mark."

Yeah, I did that my first few tries. It isn't necessary really, you can just circle around at slow speed near the radar building until the time to shoot. After a little practice I could do that mission perfectly every time (but then again, I played AC5 so much I could do every mission perfectly every time, on Ace, unless I took the A-10 into 8492 ).

after all, I take it that I can actually make enough money on Very Easy to actually complete a first playthrough, then come back later for a "proper" run...

Very easy really is pathetically easy, 'Easy' should be quite sufficient - you can take what four missiles and keep flying, and if you hit the ground you actually bounce off?

By the time I finished my save off by S ranking everything, I had something like a 20:1 kill ratio between me and all four wingmen put together.

Ah, but did you S-rank every mission on every difficultly level /without/ using the Falken?

I confess on AC6 I did 'cheat' and use the CFA-44 to get some of the S ranks on Ace.

Hmm... so when will I need to buy more than one aircraft that's not the F-4 Phantom II? Because I do know what you mean by wingman-suck. Seriously, Pixy, Shamrock, and even PJ -- and of course, every ally called in 6 -- were useful. Hell, at least Pixy was willing to join in Zero's masturbating Cipher/its players with the named aces' dialogue![/quote]

[Edward Yee]

Difficulty level affects collisions, damage dealt (or is it enemy damage capacity?) and damage capacity, but it doesn't make my plane go any faster or let me swap SP weapons... *raaaaaaage*

[Vendetta]

Ah, but did you S-rank every mission on every difficultly level /without/ using the Falken?

Pretty much. Never got the hang of using the laser for anything other than large stationary targets like the Arkbird or SOLG. Always use the X-02 or MFI-1.44 instead unless I want FAEBs for a mission.

Hmm... so when will I need to buy more than one aircraft that's not the F-4 Phantom II?

Never. About halfway through you get 4 free F-14s, which are easily good enough for puny wingmen. Either that or give them the cheapest planes that can use XMAAs/XLAAs, because they'll actually use those (won't use most SP weapons.)

[Lagmonster]

Moved to Gaming because, assumedly, AC4 is a game.

[Big Orange]

The Stonehenge facility may have a lot of local history around it - the construction of the array itself and its many support facilities looked like a huge effort that must've taken upwards of easily half a decade. And out in the middle of nowhere, small prefab towns would've sprung up overnight around the Stonehenge site to house and cater to the sizable workforce (and like any remote miner's town be full of gambling dens, brothels, and saloons). When the Erusea military forcibly took over Stonehenge, for security reasons they most probably ruthlessly cleared out some of the shanty towns under wartime conditions SS/NKVD style, since they were too close to the 'war winning' weapons platform (but some of the seedy venues were left open to entertain the Erusea officers and enlisted men now running Stonehenge).

[Edward Yee]

A thought regarding the "Escort" of the Erusean defectors...

As stated before, ISAF was discovering much about the Henge’s capabilities first hand. Apparently, the installation could attack aircraft from very far away, but unlike previous beliefs, it could not create a true no fly zone. Stonehenge was apparently limited in firing range not because of gravity, but because of the curvature of the planet. This meant that Stonehenge was strictly a “Line of Sight” weapon. Its shells were obviously capable of some downward arcing. Just not enough to keep the shell in the atmosphere of the planet before it ricocheted off into space. The documents ISAF recovered would probably confirm this theory. From the looks of it, they recovered a particularly valuable piece of information about Stonehenge. The information about the facility’s lackluster radar detection network.

While it wouldn't necessarily turn the tide of the war back against ISAF if the defectors were lost, the go/no-go or green light could have been conditioned on confirmation of "empirically gathered evidence" (read: what survivors and AWACS/other ELINT gatherers learned from its attacks) from enemy data. Better to get it from the horse's mouth than to have to get "empirically gathered evidence" again, no? The data could also reassured ISAF planners that there were no hidden traps waiting for them, and the earlier the "go," the less chance that some bright "young Turk" Erusean military officer might have had time to realize what was going on and have Stonehenge reinforced.

[CaptHawkeye]

ISAF must have been developing promising strategies and tech to deal with Stonehenge. It's not as if the system was totally foreign to them. It's likely that ISAF was going to find a way to destroy the facility sooner or later.

Early concepts probably involved things like stealth bomber attacks (which the Erusean's seemed to consider most likely) and commando ops to probe for weaknesses. Worst case scenario Stonehenge delays the war for another year or so while ISAF continues to build itself up. Eventually ISAF will probably have enough men and equipment to literally just overwhelm the thing. The Erusean Air Force wasn't what it used to be by that point. A ground advance with minimal air cover probably wouldn't cost ISAF too much.

[Big Orange]

Why was a commando team inserted into the Megalith stronghold and not the Stonehenge facility?

[Adrian Laguna]

Why was a commando team inserted into the Megalith stronghold and not the Stonehenge facility?

Probably because Stonhenge was too far in-land to deploy commandos in rubber boats out of a submarine. I assume this is what they did with Megalith because it had a lot of fighter cover, which would have made air insertion rather suicidal.

[Edward Yee]

ISAF must have been developing promising strategies and tech to deal with Stonehenge. It's not as if the system was totally foreign to them. It's likely that ISAF was going to find a way to destroy the facility sooner or later.

Eventually, but the go/no-go may have made all the difference between what happened in your retelling and a rougher, potentially bloodier grind. Also, from what I got of your retelling, Yellow Squadron was known to be tasked with its defense but was not directly accounted for and its defeat over Stonehenge.

Speaking of what happened in your retelling, here I see Erusea doomed in just three operations by losing four components: the Aegir Fleet, the majority of the FREAF over the space center, Stonehenge, and Yellow Squadron. Would you count "Sitting Duck" and "Imminent Threat" (or at least just the latter) amongst these operations?

As for why the lack of a commando insertion into Stonehenge, while the rough terrain negatively affected the radar detection network it also was supposed to impede any ground assault on Stonehenge.

[Sephirius]

Speaking of what happened in your retelling, here I see Erusea doomed in just three operations by losing four components: the Aegir Fleet, the majority of the FREAF over the space center, Stonehenge, and Yellow Squadron. Would you count "Sitting Duck" and "Imminent Threat" (or at least just the latter) amongst these operations?

As for why the lack of a commando insertion into Stonehenge, while the rough terrain negatively affected the radar detection network it also was supposed to impede any ground assault on Stonehenge.

Sitting Duck is not an 'important' operation in defeating Erusia, rather an important OP for the defense of the ISAF GHQ in North Point- Allenfort Air Base was just a target along the way, which Mobius 1 was dispatched to protect from his home carrier. (ostensibly as a rookie pilot.)
That being said, Imminent Threat was quite possibly responsible for the destruction of the bulk of the FEAF Strategic/General Purpose bomber force- Very few bombers of similar type and capabilities are found later in the conflict, so we may assume this is true. (note that only very expensive or niche strategic bombers show up from then on- B2s, Blackjacks, etc.)

[CaptHawkeye]

That's the idea I got from it. It's also possible that the Erusean's had plenty more strategic bombers, but a combination of obsolescence, poor crew standards, and low morale in the bomber wings made them give up on conventional strategic bombing. I doubt they'd concentrate ALL of their wing at a single base easily within ISAF striking distance. The Erusean military probably just never liked strategic bombing and initial losses seemed to prove their bias. They are a staunchly Mahan culture after all.

[Starglider]

Remember guys, Mobius 1 wasn't in every single operation of the war. The player shoots down twenty or so Bears in that first mission, but it would be reasonable to assume that raids on other targets and other intercepting aircraft claimed many more off-screen.

[Sephirius]

Remember guys, Mobius 1 wasn't in every single operation of the war. The player shoots down twenty or so Bears in that first mission, but it would be reasonable to assume that raids on other targets and other intercepting aircraft claimed many more off-screen.

Even as such it is quite possible that that is the 'bulk' of the Erusian Strategic Bomber fleet, at least 10 in the first mission and a good 30 in Imminent Threat- quite a large number, especially when we see such a variety of 'superbombers' in later missions.
I tend to think of it in a similar vein to Japan's Naval fleet by the end of WWII, they have completely exhausted their 'standard' ships and are forced to use their Yamatos and whatnot despite the lack of proper crew and supplies, and indeed anything else for that matter.

It could easily NOT be the bulk of the bomber fleet, but the fact that Erusia is so willing to throw Blackjacks and Spirits into the fray with little to no chance of success implies otherwise.

[Shroom Man 777]

Superbombers in the later missions? I don't recall any super aircraft in AC04 at all. The closest ones were the Tu-160 Blackjacks.