Mechanicum Questions

[Falkenhayn]

Spoiler

1. Dalia and Rho Mu 31 stay on as Guardians of the Dragon. What underground manufacturing facility of Zeth's do the rest of the party go to, and why?

2. Who steals the book holding the Secret of the Mechanicus?

3. Dalia and Rho Mu 31 are Guardians for 10,000 years, and are replaced in "Modern" 40k. Why is "the damage done" by that point? What's the damage?


Dorn speaks to Malcador the Sigilite about Horus Lupercal's rebellion. The discussion takes place in the "Himadri" district of the Imperial Palace, which is one of a few districts left unfortified. They are walking past trophies from "The Wars of Unity"*. Keeping in mind that a full-blown rebellion is in the offing, and a civil war has started on Mars, their conversation is as follows:

Mechanicum, pg 328-'9
"The Emperor Still does not join us?" asked Dorn as the passed the bloodstained Armor of Pearl that had been torn from the body of the warlord Kalagann.
Malcador sighed. He had been waiting for that question.
"No, my friend, he does not".
"Tell me why, Sigillite. His Empire is crumbling and his brightest bastard son is dragging half the galaxy into war. What could possibly be more important?"
"I have no answer for you, save the Emperor's words that nothing is more important than his labors in the palace vaults, not Horus, not you, and certainly not I".
"Then we are alone".
"No. Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us, but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother legions with him. You have your fists and thirteen others."
"Would that it were fifteen," mused Dorn.
"Do not even think of it, my friend." warned Malcador, "they are lost to us forever."
"I know, and you are right".

*Cardinal Tang's empire ran a eugenic regime where people were liquidated for not restricting procreation to computer selected, "genetically acceptable" mates. "Clone-Surgeons" are mentioned as some of pre-Unification Terra's most despicable criminals.

But on the subject of Legions 2 and 11. This quote is deliciously infuriating (thanks, BL), due to the chosen verb tense and use of passive construction. Is Dorn saying that legions 2 and 11, and primarchs 2 and 11, still exist? Malcador's warning sounds like a reference to insane members of a royal family locked up in a high tower to expire at their own pace. This is about as far as I'm willing to go with something this cryptic, and I'm not aware of further evidence on the status of 2 and 11 besides the incident with Horus in Horus Rising.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

SPOILERS! You've been warned. Spoiler

1. Dalia and Rho Mu 31 stay on as Guardians of the Dragon. What underground manufacturing facility of Zeth's do the rest of the party go to, and why?

As we can see in Titanicus, Zeth's technology has become pretty standard throughout the Mechanicus, so someone had to have kept it alive during the Heresy. I suspect that there will be more written on the subject of Mars during and after the Heresy.

2. Who steals the book holding the Secret of the Mechanicus?

Almost certainly a member of the Dark Mechanicus stole it, although I couldn't say for certain who did it. It was probably one of the Fabricator General's inner circle, someone who knew about the Kaban Machine and used it as a distraction.
I'm fairly certain that this book (or an extract from it) is the one that causes the controversy in Titanicus. Much of Mechanicum seems to have been written as a precursor or prequel to the events of Titanicus.

3. Dalia and Rho Mu 31 are Guardians for 10,000 years, and are replaced in "Modern" 40k. Why is "the damage done" by that point? What's the damage?

We might have to wait for the current GW fluff to advance a bit more here, but I'm guessing that "the damage" refers to someone freeing the Dragon or causing a new rift in the Mechanicus, or both.

Coincidentally, there is a new Necron Codex coming out next year, as well as Forgeworld Mechanicus models. BFG has also introduced new Admech ships and Battlefleet Solar information. Something's been in the works for a while.

Dorn speaks to Malcador the Sigilite about Horus Lupercal's rebellion. The discussion takes place in the "Himadri" district of the Imperial Palace, which is one of a few districts left unfortified. They are walking past trophies from "The Wars of Unity"*. Keeping in mind that a full-blown rebellion is in the offing, and a civil war has started on Mars, their conversation is as follows:

Mechanicum, pg 328-'9 *snip*
"Would that it were fifteen," mused Dorn.
"Do not even think of it, my friend." warned Malcador, "they are lost to us forever."
"I know, and you are right".

I love that casual tweaking of all the fans' speculation on the missing legions. It makes these little teases even worse when you realize that GW will NEVER, EVER tell us what actually happened to those legions.

*Cardinal Tang's empire ran a eugenic regime where people were liquidated for not restricting procreation to computer selected, "genetically acceptable" mates. "Clone-Surgeons" are mentioned as some of pre-Unification Terra's most despicable criminals.

I love all of that little future history stuff. Graham MacNeil may have some faults as a writer (*cough cough Honsou cough*), but he always delivers the real goods in his throw-away lines. Almost as good as Futurama describing French as a dead gibberish language.
Like a good Schwarzenegger film, when MacNeil hams it up, he always adds a lot of cheese for additional flavor.

I did notice that a lot of his backstory completely screws up the timeline, though, considering that Mechanicum takes place roughly 200 years after the start of the Great Crusade, which followed the Unification Wars...so there was no possible way for a young man to have lived through Cardinal Tang's rule.

But on the subject of Legions 2 and 11. This quote is deliciously infuriating (thanks, BL), due to the chosen verb tense and use of passive construction. Is Dorn saying that legions 2 and 11, and primarchs 2 and 11, still exist? Malcador's warning sounds like a reference to insane members of a royal family locked up in a high tower to expire at their own pace. This is about as far as I'm willing to go with something this cryptic, and I'm not aware of further evidence on the status of 2 and 11 besides the incident with Horus in Horus Rising.

It's pretty hard to come up with a crime they could have committed that would net a worse punishment than starting your own heresy, rebelling, and then besieging Holy Terra.

[Cykeisme]

It's pretty hard to come up with a crime they could have committed that would net a worse punishment than starting your own heresy, rebelling, and then besieging Holy Terra.

Maybe the two missing Primarchs not "bad" like Horus, but they're mad like mad, mad people.

Locking them up in a metaphorical tower is not punishment, but simply to keep them from hurting themselves and others.

[Samuel]

It's pretty hard to come up with a crime they could have committed that would net a worse punishment than starting your own heresy, rebelling, and then besieging Holy Terra.

Maybe the two missing Primarchs not "bad" like Horus, but they're mad like mad, mad people.

Locking them up in a metaphorical tower is not punishment, but simply to keep them from hurting themselves and others.

Last I checked, several of the "normal" primarchs are a bit insane. Isn't the head of the Night Lords a sociopath? How can you get much worse- they can't have genetic disorders, remember.

[NecronLord]

Last I checked, several of the "normal" primarchs are a bit insane. Isn't the head of the Night Lords a sociopath? How can you get much worse- they can't have genetic disorders, remember.

Yes they can, the Emperor's genetics programme was far from perfect. Magnus was seriously mutated, as was Sanguinius. Those weren't planned by the Emperor. Nothing stops the other two having been turned into hideous squealing chaos spawn.

Especially if you take the 'Horus travels in time' vision-trip as literal.

[Cykeisme]

Nothing stops the other two having been turned into hideous squealing chaos spawn.

Hmm, from the limited information we have, can we determine if they were sane enough to have taken part in the Great Crusade at some point, or if they were unfit for crusading as soon as they were re-discovered by the Emperor?
Evidently they were functional for at least some time if Rogal Dorn mused about calling upon their assistance.

And what of their Astartes Legions?

[NecronLord]

Hmm, from the limited information we have, can we determine if they were sane enough to have taken part in the Great Crusade at some point, or if they were unfit for crusading as soon as they were re-discovered by the Emperor?

Supposedly their legions were founded, IIRC. The primarchs themselves were created and lost. That's about all we know, I think. I'm not too sure of my sources in this, though.

Evidently they were functional for at least some time if Rogal Dorn mused about calling upon their assistance.

Not really. In similar circumstances, a British general could fantasise about having extra troops, who were planned but weren't recruited because of budget cuts, or something, no?

[Elheru Aran]

Hmm, from the limited information we have, can we determine if they were sane enough to have taken part in the Great Crusade at some point, or if they were unfit for crusading as soon as they were re-discovered by the Emperor?

Supposedly their legions were founded, IIRC. The primarchs themselves were created and lost. That's about all we know, I think. I'm not too sure of my sources in this, though.

Hold on. I thought the Legions weren't founded in the first place? They don't appear in that chart from Collected Visions. I always thought they were lost from the get-go, and without the Primarchs, they wouldn't have been able to sustain the Marines as distinct from the other Legions due to the need for individual geneseed...

[Leman-russ]

The leading theory's for the missing legions are:
1) were lost in combat
2) sent to cleanse the eye of terror and never came back
3) were exiled for some unknown reason

Given there's noting else published mentioning them we just have to guess.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

On another board, the theory was raised that the legions themselves turned against their primarchs and murdered them. The Emperor would have had the legions destroyed and the memory of such a base act wiped out, for such unpleasant truths could harm the Great Crusade from the very beginning in a variety of ways.

[NecronLord]

Hold on. I thought the Legions weren't founded in the first place? They don't appear in that chart from Collected Visions. I always thought they were lost from the get-go, and without the Primarchs, they wouldn't have been able to sustain the Marines as distinct from the other Legions due to the need for individual geneseed...

All the legions were founded without a Primarch. The Emperor used the gene-samples already taken from them for his Marines. They were ready to roll when each Primarch was discovered, and he was put in command of them. Iacton Qurze was even an example of a Terran Space Marine from the Luna Wolves, from before they had a primarch.

And I'm pretty sure the phrase "Twenty legions were founded" has been used a few times.

[Lord Revan]

Battle-captain Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard is another pre-primarch marine (battle-captain is a specific rank for the captain of the 7th great company for the Death Guard) to a point that he remembers the pre-primarch name (the Dusk Raiders) for the legion.

so it's highly likely that the missing legions were a)lost in the warp b)became too "unstable" to be of use c) got wiped out (probably in a way really embrassing to the Astrades explaining the way they talk of those legions

[Lost Soal]

Most of the Marines Virus bombed in Isstvan were pre-Primarch with loyalty to the Emperor before their Primarch.

[Falkenhayn]

sorry for the typing but my computer is fighting that sonuvabitch worm that just came out

page six of of the new sm codex states "these were the primarchs: twenty extraordinary individuals who would be his generals"