SGA 5x20 "Enemy at the Gate" Talkback (Series Finale)

[Bilbo]

Atlantis episode The Tower, otherwise forgettable episode, Rodney uses a drone to blast a hole from an underground cavern to the surface.

I always thought of that as the "Fuck you Voyager" episode. Voyager never ran out of torps or shuttle craft no matter how long they were in the Delta Quadrant. At least on Atlantis they had an episode where they loaded up on extra drones and puddlejumpers.

[Revy]

As you describe the drones? no, I don't think they would punch through either a superdense wraith armor, or a neutronium shell. I think they would PHASE through, unless the ZPM also enhances their dampening field.

What makes you think they phase shift? Hell, I used to think that, and got slapped down on it. Never is it stated or even meaningfully implied that they phase through anything.

Please provide evidence of phase shifting drones.

Actually I think we have partial proof that drones cannot phase through solid matter. The very first time we see drones used is when O'Neil takes out the fleet of Anubis. When he fires them they blow a hole in the ice to get to the surface then fly up and destroy the fleet.

If drones can phase through matter then wouldnt it have made sense that they phase through the ice instead of wasting some of their destructive power punching through the ice?

O'Neill used the beam from the cargo ships rings to bore a hole down through the ice to the outpost, and it was that hole the drones travelled through - they never even touched the ice.

I dont know if drones phase shift (they dont even cause a shield glow when they impact Anubis' ships, which I'd expect if they were simply brute forcing their way through ala Ori beams) however something hinky goes on with them seeing as they make a Kull warrior vanish into thin air by swarming around it.

Personally, I think the drones are outfitted with similar technology to Kull warrior armour - that armour absorbs energy and was able to walk right through a shield iris and a Tokra shield trap - if you built missiles out of the stuff it may allow them to pass right through shields. This would explain why drone weapons are effective against Goa'uld ships like Anubis' (they simply ignored his shields) but had trouble with the Super Hive (it didnt use shields, it used armour, and energy absorbing shell wont allow you to bypass physical armour the way it could energy shields).

Also, the drone attack on the super hive may have caused some damage, but due to the enormous size of the damn thing may have simply failed to hit any vital systems. Sometimes you can shoot a person and the bullets pass right through, but the person might not realize they've been shot until later, so unless you hit them in the head or heart or similar, they could keep fighting despite being shot. Likewise for the hive?

[NecronLord]

O'Neill used the beam from the cargo ships rings to bore a hole down through the ice to the outpost, and it was that hole the drones travelled through - they never even touched the ice.

He means the hole they made in the foreground to get up into the outpost, I think. See here, in the scene you're talking about?

I dont know if drones phase shift (they dont even cause a shield glow when they impact Anubis' ships, which I'd expect if they were simply brute forcing their way through ala Ori beams) however something hinky goes on with them seeing as they make a Kull warrior vanish into thin air by swarming around it.

They seem to have the ability to make matter disappear. The long, impossibly straight column McKay got one to drill through the ground is a notable example.

[Vertigo1]

Both deploy the horizon missile, which partially disables the hiveship's sublight capability.

The Horizon weapons platform? Isn't that equipped with Mark IX gatebusters? The naquadriah nukes? A successful deployment would mean the Hive ship gets hit with 12 multiple gigaton warheads. You think the Hive becomes that powerful even with a ZPM?

Those were mark 9 warheads used, yes. Given that a normal hive only took moderate damage from a normal naq enhanced nuke (nuke spam from Daedalus in the first ep of Season 3 I believe...), I do think that is a possibility that while it would do damage, it wouldn't be enough to cripple/destroy the hiveship from the outside. It took a nuke from the inside to take it out in-episode due to the fact that there was a-lot more of the energy being delivered into the hive from THAT nuke than you would get from hitting it from the outside. (plus the fact that theres an actual atmosphere inside the ship, which only adds to the destructive power of the nuke)

[Vertigo1]

Actually I think we have partial proof that drones cannot phase through solid matter. The very first time we see drones used is when O'Neil takes out the fleet of Anubis. When he fires them they blow a hole in the ice to get to the surface then fly up and destroy the fleet.

O'Neill used the beam from the cargo ships rings to bore a hole down through the ice to the outpost, and it was that hole the drones travelled through - they never even touched the ice.

I think what he's talking about is from the moment the drones are launched. What happened was the door leading to the drones opened, causing the ice on-top to collapse into said chamber. The drones "picked up" the remaining kull warriors, which were never seen again. We later see the drones smashing gliders into shrapnel on the way up to take out the orbiting fleet.

The only reasonable explanation for the way that the drones penetrated the shields of Anubis' ships without flaring them is the fact that Anubis is using an ancient design for the shields to prevent the Asgard from being a hindrance to their expansion efforts. (Asgard PPT) We know that vessels of ancient design can pass through their own shields with no need to drop said shield, as we witnessed this in the first minute of the pilot episode for Atlantis. Therefore it would make sense that the drones would have to be able to penetrate said shield in order to engage the enemy.

[CaptJodan]

We know that vessels of ancient design can pass through their own shields with no need to drop said shield...

The key word being vessels, in this case. We have the case of a jumper (ancient tech) being shot at with a drone, and its shield being effective against the drone that hit it (with shield interaction included). So I'd think the "drones effortlessly go through ancient shields" thing might not be 100%.

[NecronLord]

I never really got the idea that they could go through equivalent technology shields.

Anubis had some ancient bits and pieces, but he wasn't exactly cranking out Auroras or anything to that effect.

[Themightytom]

Necronlord, how were you slapped down? There is inconclusive that they either do or don't on screen, they never zoom in to show one either plop, or phase. I can cite examples of drones that "Pass through" but I suggest they "Phase through" because

a. It explains potential effects errors that are in Lost city. I'm pretty sure the writers weren't sure what they were going to be yet. Since the first example below is accompanid by a vanishing Anubis soldier, I'm not putting quite the same stock in my argument as I would use for say, arguing that vanishing asteroid= complete annihalation. Still you ahve to start somewhere.

b. Drones bypass shields. Shields that eflect solid objects (Like missiles or an F302). How does a solid object get through an energy barrier with no discernible effect? Shields have been seen to flicker when in contact with solid objects, and ripple. They even flicker when they FAIL. A drone slids right through them. How, through some complicated reverse polarity wormhole generating bullshit we've never seen applied anywhere else? Phasing on the other hand, is technology the ancients had, or at least merlin had.

c. Drones do things that are REDICULOUS, like doubleshotting a hatak, not with overwhelming firepower, but with a tinnnnny explosion that causes numerous secondaries? Who put that little vulnerability on the outside of a hatak and how come now one ever found it? Why don't the Goa'uld have surge protetors?? its simpler to accept that a drone passed through the outer surface, dumped a charge on its way by creating a small explosion, and continued on to the hyperdrive reactor for the larger explosion we saw moments later.

D. Drones pass through objects multiple times unimpaired. How is something doing that through sheer phsysical impact tough enough to do that yet not amazingly dense, and therefore REALLY heavy? Wouldn't energy be released and disfigurement on the surface result from that kind of impact? Not if its just phasing in and out, discharging energy where it wants.

In the lost City,
at 1:19:58 drones can be seen swirling through the dying Anubis drone, additionally, Nothing explodes, the drones killed it through some other means, IE passing through it.

at 1:20:02 drones pass into a death glider,it blows up, while the majority are just floating their, and then they turn and rejoin the main stream.

at 1:20:55 drones are seen pouring out o the TOP of Anubis' battleship, without even any explosions generated by an explosive exit.

At the very least the drones bypass shields, not surprising since the Ori weapon does that to some extent, but when a flood of intact drones comes sweeping out of a ship with no damage, it is reasonable to conclude they are unexpended drones that phased out, passed through the ship and kept on going so they could hit other targets. It also supports the concept of a "more advanced" weapon, we know the anients had phase technology, by all acounts they were far more advanced than the Sodan, the Tollan, and the Giant Aztek Aliens, so they should have the capability to construct a small phasing device. Why would they NOT put that on a weapon whose agreed function is to penetrate and destroy?

Most importantly, when combined with tech introduced in THIS episode, it makes the cumulative explanations simpler. The ancients have Phasing drones, but they aren't as effective because the Wraith have enough energy for a full spectrum jamming field, and the Drones can't phase through.

[Stargate Nerd]

Both deploy the horizon missile, which partially disables the hiveship's sublight capability.

The Horizon weapons platform? Isn't that equipped with Mark IX gatebusters? The naquadriah nukes? A successful deployment would mean the Hive ship gets hit with 12 multiple gigaton warheads. You think the Hive becomes that powerful even with a ZPM?

Those were mark 9 warheads used, yes. Given that a normal hive only took moderate damage from a normal naq enhanced nuke (nuke spam from Daedalus in the first ep of Season 3 I believe...), I do think that is a possibility that while it would do damage, it wouldn't be enough to cripple/destroy the hiveship from the outside. It took a nuke from the inside to take it out in-episode due to the fact that there was a-lot more of the energy being delivered into the hive from THAT nuke than you would get from hitting it from the outside. (plus the fact that theres an actual atmosphere inside the ship, which only adds to the destructive power of the nuke)

Yes but we don't even know for sure how powerful that Warhead in No Man's Land was.
Horizon's come with 6 Mark IX warheads each, so unless the Darts suicide ram most of them the Hive ship is going to get rocked with up to 12 separate multi-gigaton warheads. Even with a ZPM I can't quite see a Hive Ship surviving that.

As for the interior explosions, a normal non-naquadah enhanced Genii nuke was enough to destroy a regular Hive Ship.

[Revy]

Eh ... what about my explanation? That Drones use the same tech for their shells as is used in Kull Warrior armour? Actually, it'd be the other way around - Kull armour would use the same tech as in ancient Drones, and Anubis' Ancient knowledge allowed him to scrounge that tech and use it to build armour for his new soldiers. The only query then is why he didn't build Drone weapons himself, but the Others were clearly being cut and paste with him with regards to knowledge (ie he wasnt allowed to know the location of Atlantis or the Sangraal, but knew enough about Ancient tech to upgrade his weapons and shields, and possibly find that gatebusting weapon from the start of S6) so he may have been allowed knowledge of the armour tech without the rest of the tech used to make drone weapons, and thus used that knowledge for his Kull armour. Or maybe drones are very difficult to build (like Starfleet having the blueprints for an Imperial Hyperdrive but not having the industry to make one).

Either way, if the technology is the same or at least related, it answers a lot of questions. It explains how they could slide through shields unimpeeded (Kull warriors walk through ground base shields without evident trouble) and how they could be strong enough to punch through a ship and exit the other side undamaged (Kull armour is very strong, able to take C4, Claymore and machinegun attacks without so much as denting). Also, being energy absorbant (like a Stargate) it may be able to store energy like a capacitor and then overload, causing it to explode. The more it is charged the bigger the bang.

I used to collect the SG1/Atlantis DVD collection that came with a magazine, sometimes including bits and pieces of tech info from the show. Some of the articles were detailed (Tollan Ion Cannons and Naqadah Reactors especially so) others just made no logical sense and went against the show. Anyway, the specs for the drone weapons said that they used Neutronium in their design, and were superheated to allow them to bore through hulls and such. Don't know if that's jibberish or not in this case.

Keep in mind though that the lone Dron that Carson accidently fires at O'Neill's chopper in the first Atlantis episode - it slammed into the ice and we clearly see the impact disturb the surface of said ice, both on impact and exit. If it could phase through matter without disturbing it, why didn't it in this case? Why did it's passage through the ice disturb it? Also, if Drones are superheated, that could allow it to travel beneath the icy surface and emerge some distance away, just as it did. But then, I suppose we'd see some steam if that were the case. Feh, this is hard.

It's magic

[NecronLord]

Necronlord, how were you slapped down? There is inconclusive that they either do or don't on screen, they never zoom in to show one either plop, or phase. I can cite examples of drones that "Pass through" but I suggest they "Phase through" because

Except they do show them disintegrating matter - the ground in the Ancient outpost, possibly a kull warrior, and especially the tunnel that McKay has one make in The Tower. They don't show them phasing through anything.

Occam suggests that unless there's evidence of phasing (why then would there be hatches on Atlantis and the jumpers to fire them, even? That just draws attention to them) then they disintegrate their way through enemy hulls when they do not detonate on impact.

It's that simple.

Most importantly, when combined with tech introduced in THIS episode, it makes the cumulative explanations simpler. The ancients have Phasing drones, but they aren't as effective because the Wraith have enough energy for a full spectrum jamming field, and the Drones can't phase through.

...

That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week. That unknown energy field interaction handwaving to you is simpler than 'more, denser, armour is tougher' as given in the show?

[Themightytom]

Except they do show them disintegrating matter - the ground in the Ancient outpost, possibly a kull warrior, and especially the tunnel that McKay has one make in The Tower.

You mean the part where the ground shook and the ice fell inwards? The McKay example is a better one but that in now way disproves that the drones don't also have a phasing ability.

They don't show them phasing through anything.

No, they show them passing through with no resistance. if they are only tunneling as you suggest, where is the excess going? You'd think there'd be sawdust or soemthing. or is this like the phaser that disintegrates with no trace. Actually come to think of it, there is the in universe precedent of the Zatnicketel, but they have tried desperately to retcon that out.

Occam suggests that unless there's evidence of phasing (why then would there be hatches on Atlantis and the jumpers to fire them, even? That just draws attention to them) then they disintegrate their way through enemy hulls when they do not detonate on impact.

Why are there hatches??? I'm not saying I don't see your point, but thats not exactly the smoking gun that disproves the theory.
If there are destructive side effects to the drone phasing, inherent to its design as a weapon you wouldn't want to shoot one through your own ship. The explosion we saw on the hatak could have been surface disruption of a drone passing through an object rather than a drone fully detoanting. You wouldn't want that explosion ripping out the side of your ship would you?

It's that simple.

Most importantly, when combined with tech introduced in THIS episode, it makes the cumulative explanations simpler. The ancients have Phasing drones, but they aren't as effective because the Wraith have enough energy for a full spectrum jamming field, and the Drones can't phase through.

...

That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week. That unknown energy field interaction handwaving to you is simpler than 'more, denser, armour is tougher' as given in the show?

The unknown energy field has been a staple of the show since the beginning of season 2. LOLZ the ZPM Makes Trees Grow Big was introduced in THIS episode, so yeah, the handwaving is simpler. Like I have said ad naseum, I can see the ZPM making the armor stronger, but not to such an extensive degree.

[NecronLord]

You mean the part where the ground shook and the ice fell inwards? The McKay example is a better one but that in now way disproves that the drones don't also have a phasing ability.

That is a burden of proof fallacy.

You claim they can phase shift.

You have produced no evidence for this phase shifting.

I on the other hand, claim that they put holes through things they strike.

Here is my evidence

Now as I see it you have four choices:

1. Provide evidence of phase shifting.
2. Concede with some dignity.
3. Continue to evade pathetically, and endure me mocking you until such time as you take another option.
4. Run away and ignore this thread.

Frankly, I'd rather preffer them to be able to phase shift. But that's not what the show depicts. So if you could come up with option one, I'd be much obliged.

but they have tried desperately to retcon that out.

They have not, however, attempted to retcon transporter beams and stargates being able to make things go away

The unknown energy field has been a staple of the show since the beginning of season 2.

You're postulating an anti-phasing device, something not known to exist anywhere in the canon. Anywhere. There's more, but frankly, I don't want to make this post too long to aid you in evading the point.

[Vertigo1]

Yes but we don't even know for sure how powerful that Warhead in No Man's Land was.

Given the size of the bang (which totally ignores how real nukes would work in space, but that's another topic entirely....), it couldn't have been more than a few dozen megatons at the very most. Going by the episode, they were mark 3 tactical nukes, so the bang wouldn't be huge to begin with. (not by comparison to the naquad nukes anyways)



The detonation did superficial damage, but was enough to rock the ship roughly enough to make McKay nearly shit himself.

As for the interior explosions, a normal non-naquadah enhanced Genii nuke was enough to destroy a regular Hive Ship.

Which again was helped by the fact that it was an interior explosion, with all the elements that come with it.

The unknown energy field has been a staple of the show since the beginning of season 2.

Oh, you mean the wraith jamming of the asgard transporter system? Funny, it doesn't seem to jam anything else. We've seen them hit with railgun fire, missiles, nukes, drones, and the big bad asgard blue beams of doom. Quite frankly, all you've done is show that they have an incredible ability to burrow through damn near anything with the exception of the super hiveship.

[Stargate Nerd]

Yes but we don't even know for sure how powerful that Warhead in No Man's Land was.

Given the size of the bang (which totally ignores how real nukes would work in space, but that's another topic entirely....), it couldn't have been more than a few dozen megatons at the very most. Going by the episode, they were mark 3 tactical nukes, so the bang wouldn't be huge to begin with. (not by comparison to the naquad nukes anyways)

The detonation did superficial damage, but was enough to rock the ship roughly enough to make McKay nearly shit himself.

Well then, if a few dozen megatons warhead screws up so many systems on a regular Hive that McKay can't even find something to overload, then the ZPM must turn the Hive Ship into a Star Wars vessels for it to survive several multi-gigaton hits. That's what I'm trying to say.

Which again was helped by the fact that it was an interior explosion, with all the elements that come with it.

Yes yes I know. Internal explosions seem to act like you've described in your earlier post.

[Themightytom]

That is a burden of proof fallacy.

You claim they can phase shift.

You have produced no evidence for this phase shifting.

Not at all true, I provided weak indirect proof in the form of several special effects gaffes. And i said as much.

Here is my evidence

Now as I see it you have four choices:

1. Provide evidence of phase shifting.
2. Concede with some dignity.
3. Continue to evade pathetically, and endure me mocking you until such time as you take another option.
4. Run away and ignore this thread.

I don't have a problem conceding to you necronlord, you haven't really flamed me and it hasn't gotten personal. I don't think I can take this much further without it being rediculous so I will concede, but I will secretly nurture this theory in the darkness if my innermost sould and spring it back upon you when more evidence presents itself.

but they have tried desperately to retcon that out.

They have not, however, attempted to retcon transporter beams and stargates being able to make things go away

They don't make things "Go away" the convert them into energy, and tranfer it through a medium other than the physical world, They are part o why I suspect there is a phasing element to the drones. The stargates shoot matter through a wormhole, it wouldn't be rediculous to thinkn the Asgard might route it through some other space medium as we don't see any energy or physical matter being transferred, and everything seems to be coming back intact.

The unknown energy field has been a staple of the show since the beginning of season 2.

You're postulating an anti-phasing device, something not known to exist anywhere in the canon. Anywhere. There's more, but frankly, I don't want to make this post too long to aid you in evading the point.[/quote]

I will look that up before making a response, as I was forced to concede the last one beause I couldn't find enough evidence.

[Strider]

Well then, if a few dozen megatons warhead screws up so many systems on a regular Hive that McKay can't even find something to overload, then the ZPM must turn the Hive Ship into a Star Wars vessels for it to survive several multi-gigaton hits. That's what I'm trying to say.

I wonder how many years it takes until the wild 'n crazy SG tech progression gets to the point of matching SW ships.

[Vertigo1]

Well then, if a few dozen megatons warhead screws up so many systems on a regular Hive that McKay can't even find something to overload, then the ZPM must turn the Hive Ship into a Star Wars vessels for it to survive several multi-gigaton hits. That's what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, that kinda annoyed me how they never really showed how much that super-armor could take before it started to fail.

Not at all true, I provided weak indirect proof in the form of several special effects gaffes. And i said as much.

Here is my evidence

Wow, I didn't know that a hole drilled through the ceiling with clearly melted edges proves phasing took place. If it phased, wouldn't there be no hole at all? Isn't that the whole idea of a "phase" weapon? It passes through every damn thing until it hits its intended target. McKay didn't program that drone, and he certainly wasn't controlling it. He just set it off and hoped to hell it would go in a straight line. Furthermore, if they phased, then why did the aurans use drones to intercept Sheppard's attack on one of the auroras over Asuras? Wouldn't that be like shooting air at more air?

[fuzzymillipede]

The unknown energy field has been a staple of the show since the beginning of season 2. LOLZ the ZPM Makes Trees Grow Big was introduced in THIS episode, so yeah, the handwaving is simpler. Like I have said ad naseum, I can see the ZPM making the armor stronger, but not to such an extensive degree.

My understanding was that the Wraith already had the ability to grow that kind of bulky armor. What they lacked were engines powerful enough to maneuver a ship with said heavy armor. The ZPM simply increased the power of the engines and thrusters, allowing the ship to grow heavier armor.

[Themightytom]

Here is my evidence

Wow, I didn't know that a hole drilled through the ceiling with clearly melted edges proves phasing took place. If it phased, wouldn't there be no hole at all? Isn't that the whole idea of a "phase" weapon? It passes through every damn thing until it hits its intended target. McKay didn't program that drone, and he certainly wasn't controlling it. He just set it off and hoped to hell it would go in a straight line. Furthermore, if they phased, then why did the aurans use drones to intercept Sheppard's attack on one of the auroras over Asuras? Wouldn't that be like shooting air at more air?

woah slow down and don't sprain, something, that link was left over from where I was editing the quotes, its actually the link necronlord provided, not something of mine.

I WAS proposing that the drones had a phasing option: matter is made up of mostly empty space, two objects "interacting" should pass through eachother but don't so they must be oriented such that they are in Phase, moving something "out of phase" as depicted in scifi allows them to pass through each other. This semed like a relatively desireable advance in weapons ability, who WOULDN'T want a drone that could pass through armor, rephase and then explode, or a drone that could partially phase through armor, disrupting the armor, but continuing onwards. Against such a weapon you'd have to either shoot another drone, programmed to stay in phase with the first drone, or you'd have to broadcast energy at multiple orientations so that no matter what phase the drone is in, it hits a shield wall.

But as I already conceded there isn't enough evidence to definitively say that is what the drones do, just on screen examples of them passing out of a solid object (Anubis' ship, and an Anubis Drone)with no disruption.

[NecronLord]

Wow, I didn't know that a hole drilled through the ceiling with clearly melted edges proves phasing took place.

His quoting's messed up. That's my evidence, reposted by mistake.

The penalty of a board that doesn't allow edits. Y'want me to fix the formatting, Tom?

Furthermore, if they phased, then why did the aurans use drones to intercept Sheppard's attack on one of the auroras over Asuras? Wouldn't that be like shooting air at more air?

We don't know if phased objects can collide or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could.

[Crazedwraith]

Wow, I didn't know that a hole drilled through the ceiling with clearly melted edges proves phasing took place. If it phased, wouldn't there be no hole at all? Isn't that the whole idea of a "phase" weapon? It passes through every damn thing until it hits its intended target. McKay didn't program that drone, and he certainly wasn't controlling it. He just set it off and hoped to hell it would go in a straight line. Furthermore, if they phased, then why did the aurans use drones to intercept Sheppard's attack on one of the auroras over Asuras? Wouldn't that be like shooting air at more air?

The Auroras over Asuras didn't seem to be using drones at all, they seem to be using some kind of pulsed energy weapons.

[NecronLord]

The Auroras over Asuras didn't seem to be using drones at all, they seem to be using some kind of pulsed energy weapons.

Why does this claim keep coming back? Am I going to have to put up a sticky?

2:32 - 2:45

An Asuran vessel counter-fires drones against Sheppard, and only a few of Shep's drones make it through. For an added bonus, watch the Auroras in the background, and you can see one fire a whole volley of drones at a hive ship.

[Crazedwraith]

Weird. I actually rewatched that episode today. I was in argument about how well 304 shields would stand up to drone fire on Gateworld. I claimed they stood up pretty well in BAMSR, to which I got the, 'they used energy weapons' response, so I watched the entire of BAMSR to check and still managed to miss that.

Are there any instances of drones being used of 304s? (As in we see them smack into the shields)

[Themightytom]

His quoting's messed up. That's my evidence, reposted by mistake.

The penalty of a board that doesn't allow edits. Y'want me to fix the formatting, Tom?

Oh hell no, I love having people quote the typo from the post where I conceded. It reenforces that I'm an asshole in case people forget.