[discussion]elfdart

[Knife]

Prusutint to this thread. I wish to open the discussion of the wall of ignorance of Elfdart and the violations of Graeme Dice in violation of rules.


That Dice is probably in violation to DR 1 and 5. One could make an argument for vendetta though I won't. Grame's post seem to follow either a red herring or a wall of ignorance which even Thanas points out. I open the floor on the discussion on him.

Elfdart is basically the same though he tends to be smarter on the wall of ignorance charge.

Why are we putting up with this level of debate? Why do we have pages of debate over the purpose of the Senate and yet this level of discourse is tolerated. Think what you will of Ender, he replied to the challenges aptly and was continuously bogged down in bullshit.

Granted, I'm probably the least elegant Senator to bring this about; but the charge stays the same....discuss.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, I've seen people call for Elfdart's banning on dubious grounds so many times that I've got a serious case of "boy who cried wolf" syndrome.

[Edi]

Frankly, I've seen people call for Elfdart's banning on dubious grounds so many times that I've got a serious case of "boy who cried wolf" syndrome.

That's true, so I'm usually also skeptical of any attempts to paint Elfdart as the villain. However, I just read the entire thread and in this case the complaint about Elfdart's behavior does have merit.

[Knife]

Frankly, I've seen people call for Elfdart's banning on dubious grounds so many times that I've got a serious case of "boy who cried wolf" syndrome.

That may be so, however as has been observed or discussed before, just bringing these items up for discussion has acted like a censure and/or limited punishment in and of itself before. Plus, even if there has been 'trumped up' charges before, to the point of being desensitized on Elfdart threads, does not mean the mess that thread became isn't worthy of discussion.

Besides which, there is still Dice's actions in the thread as well.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's true, so I'm usually also skeptical of any attempts to paint Elfdart as the villain. However, I just read the entire thread and in this case the complaint about Elfdart's behavior does have merit.

Same here. Same with Graeme. I would like to point out (in answer to Knife's ealrier question) that this may be overlooked because Elfdart is arguing from a more (and this is the best term I can think up now, so if it isn't accurate feel free to correct me) "Liberal" viewpoint. I know this board strives to be fair, but it would be idiotic to assume that we are not, as a rule, generally more left leaning. As a result I think it tends to be easier for people who argue in that venue to get away with being outright dicks than it would be for, say, someone arguing as a conservative. It probably isn't helped by the fact we so often discuss idiot conservatives and REpublitards screwing things up - it wouldn't suprrise me if some people on this board assume "bash republicans = good reputation" or some other nonsense (as opposed to criticizing or mocking Republicans, conservatives, or fundies on the substance of their arguments - ie what makes them stupid.)

Its kind of a double standard and I would like to clamp down on it, but I'm not really sure how to do so either. I certainly don't want to "protect" the idiots who deserve bashing after all (like say, Bush.)

[Darth Wong]

Same here. Same with Graeme. I would like to point out (in answer to Knife's ealrier question) that this may be overlooked because Elfdart is arguing from a more (and this is the best term I can think up now, so if it isn't accurate feel free to correct me) "Liberal" viewpoint. I know this board strives to be fair, but it would be idiotic to assume that we are not, as a rule, generally more left leaning. As a result I think it tends to be easier for people who argue in that venue to get away with being outright dicks than it would be for, say, someone arguing as a conservative.

However, it must be pointed out that when you look for specific examples of individuals who were deluged with calls for banning and censure in the past on trumped-up grounds, they were often liberals. While the board may be left-leaning, the sub-population that repeatedly tries to ban its ideological critics does not appear to have any such tendency.

And I have a serious problem with people calling for banning over someone confusing legal and moral issues, since I have lost count of the number of times I've run into that exact problem when debating a right-winger, and I never called for a banning, and nor did anyone else. In fact, I can almost predict that when I talk about the evils of a social problem, someone will turn it into a debate about whether people have the right to be assholes 100% of the time. Sorry, but I still smell a double standard here.

[Edi]

Connor, noted.

Some observations on Elfdart's history on the board:

• We used to have a lot more conservative mods than we do now
• Back when Elfdart joined in 2004, the liberal posters already thought the Republicans a complete fuckup, but there was a strong conservative contingent, as we saw around the 2004 presidental elections
• This contingent raised a stink about Elfdart all out of proportion to what actually happened. Up to and including moderators threatening him with custom titling and permanent banning on trumped up charges.
• Since that time, some things have changed, but the old events and the way they happened at that time have practically poisoned the well and make it harder to adjudicate cases.

Now, the part about bashing conservatives etc, that's a problem which is separate from Elfdart and more people than just him are guilty of it. Elfdart is actually correct more often than not as long as you allow for the hyperbole he is fond of using. Just not in the particular thread that sparked this discussion.

As far as N&P double standards wrt liberals getting away with more shit go, the moderators, myself included, have to work on that. I'm going to try. I think one thing that will go a long way toward discouraging it is just clamping down on the spammy no-content "hur-hur" posts that certain kinds of topics tend to generate.

I also hope that the current shift with the Obama presidency leads to more constructive discussion, but it's somewhat too early to tell. It's looking good thus far, the quality of threads seems to be going up, but we'll see if it lasts.

I'll also comment on Graeme Dice as far the recent events go. I usually like him and he does have insightful things to post at times, but if and when he goes off the deep end like he did in the HoSed thread and the one under discussion, he for whatever reason gets completely stubborn and refuses to listen. I don't know why, but then it's like talking to a wall. So I can certainly understand why some people get frustrated with him and why he gathers ill will. This is also why he has a bad reputation among many posters who disagree with his politics and stances on certain issues (such as things military in certain respects). This is not the kind of behavior that is tolerated on SDnet, or it should not be, which is why there has been action on the recent events, with thread splits and HoSings.

I'm too new to the supermoderator position to start really swinging the axe here, especially surrounding the events that sparked this and the controversial history involved in some of it, but I'm keeping an eye on it. This has been kicked up to the administrators for review and they will no doubt pronounce some sort of judgment on it later.

[CmdrWilkens]

And I have a serious problem with people calling for banning over someone confusing legal and moral issues, since I have lost count of the number of times I've run into that exact problem when debating a right-winger, and I never called for a banning, and nor did anyone else. In fact, I can almost predict that when I talk about the evils of a social problem, someone will turn it into a debate about whether people have the right to be assholes 100% of the time. Sorry, but I still smell a double standard here.

I'm not sure banning is called for in Elfdart's case, at the very least I would not vote for a perma-ban flat out, because he was at least providing some meaningful response at the start between himself and Ender. It was only later when he threw out the "Concession Accepted" that really made me think this deserves a response. Its a case where we probably do need some time to srot things out because I strongly feel that a response is required to his actions but at the same time the number of tools available to us is rather limited.

A title he already has and its too fitting to change, perma-ban seems excessive to me, a temp-ban would be tricky to figure out in terms of severity of offense versus length and that about exhausts the remedies available to us. This is the dilemna from my end in as much as Elfdart rather clearly, in my view, violated the rules but at the same time severity of violation doesn't seem to match well against the remedies we have available.

Quite right which is why I am going to request that Dice be split off from Elfdart because Dice could be banned alone based on This thread right here

I am going to set up a ban thread on the subject later this evening. The main thing to keep in mind, He flat out admits to breaking the Vendetta rule and his response when confronted on this is in essence "Yes and? Sheppard deserves it.

Bean before you go straight to ban poll give it a day or so of seperate discussion. I just want to give everyone the chance to at least wander by and see the evidence so we can get a sense of temp-ban versus perma-ban. I don't yet have the ability to split threads so I'm going to open a seperate discussion thread IRGT Graeme.

[Stark]

I'd like to say that while I agree that violations should be examined in light of other contributions, the rules are the rules and they need to be seen to be enforced. I'm not familiar with this thread but being a trolling rulebreaker -sometimes- shouldn't be a defense. We've had many very quick bans over people admitting rulebreaking or daring bans.

[Edi]

Banning is most definitely NOT called for in Elfdart's case, not over this. A warning, yes, but banning, no. Else there's going to be a LOT more bans to go around on a fairly hair-trigger basis in the future. Nobody is going to like it if that route is taken.

[Coyote]

Elfdart is just arguing. Being a bit of a dick about it, to be sure, but that's our Elfy.

The only thing I'd consider is that we need to consider another, more fitting Custom Title for him. He seems to feel that "the anti-Shep" is a statement about how he's like 'Raid' to Shep's 'Bug'; or he's the 'wooden cross' to Shep's 'vampire'. It's supposed to mean he's Shep's mirror-image from the left, is all; that he reflects what he claims is the worst of his traditional adversary...

[Darth Wong]

Quite right which is why I am going to request that Dice be split off from Elfdart because Dice could be banned alone based on This thread right here

I am going to set up a ban thread on the subject later this evening. The main thing to keep in mind, He flat out admits to breaking the Vendetta rule and his response when confronted on this is in essence "Yes and? Sheppard deserves it.

Funny how Wayne Poe unabashedly broke the vendetta rule against me a while ago and nobody thought he should be banned. Many people even thought it was excessive to dump him from the Senate.

Maybe it's different when you do it in the name of pro-Americanism, eh?

I've said it once and I'll say it again: debates on this board may lean left, but quite frankly, those who attempt to railroad their opponents out of town seem to be leaning right.

[Imperial Overlord]

People do break rules in minor and not so minor fashions on this forum and don't get dragged to the Senate. We have moderators that slap around people who post badly. Elfdart undeniably did, Edi slapped him, and then addressed Ender's points like he should have in the first place. We shouldn't be looking to railroad people for having an off day and fucking up. I don't see Darth Hoth getting dragged up here for his far more blatant, repeated, and Hall of Shame worthy multipage violations of debating rules with regards to his rabid Sith apologism. Should we start a ban poll the next time Shep segues off into red herring territory with his love of American military ordinance or Stuart decides to slip in how great he thinks Reagan was into one of his posts without providing evidence to back it up?

Elfdart was unquestionably over the line. He was called on it, a moderator told him to shape up, and he started to address points. He violates the rules again in the near future, then it might be Senate worthy.

[Coyote]

I wasn't involved in the Wayne Poe debacle, and found out about it later, but I have to admit it caught me by surprise to hear about his blowup. My first thought was that it must be something on the outside (away from the board) eating at him and he'd later apologize-- it was hard for me to see him storm off in a huff since he was such a fixture here from way back. He'd also been a content contributor and kind of a community pillar... things that aren't comparable to Graeme Dice.

[CmdrWilkens]

While I can't lock the thread Elfdart has responded and is continuing the debate which brought this up. The Graeme Dice matter has been shifted to a seperate thread. I consider the matter of SDNSvElfdart to be closed.


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