Can someone explain Battlestar Galactica to a COMPLETE newco

[Count Dooku]

Ok, so I've watched the 3 hour mini series, and the first 4 episodes (all via NetFlix), and am really liking it. I thought it looked kind of stupid, and as such, I haven't seen any. That all changed when I caught some of it a few days ago, and decided I'd give it a start (from the beginning). I've avoided going to the other BSG threads, so please, no spoilers.

How do the seasons work? In my NetFlix queue, I have the rest of the first season, but what of the others? There is a season 2.0 and a 2.5. NetFlix isn't entirely clear about how those relate, and I'm really worried about looking around for fear of running into spoilers. I've also seen a Battlestar Galactica: Razor, or something like that. How does that tie in, with respect to continuity?

[K. A. Pital]

I'm just starting to see it either (it's timeslot on Russian TV is pretty awful for a working person though, so I do miss out things sometimes). So far liking it.

Go with Miniseries > First Season > Second Season (in the 2.5 version) - it's the webisodes + extended episode "Pegasus" > Third Season > Razor Flashback Webisodes > Razor > Fourth Season till Ep13 > Webisodes Face of the Enemy > Final Episodes (4 seasons 13-22, "season 4.5").

nBSG fans can correct me, but that's the way I believe it's set in continuity.

[RogueIce]

I'm just starting to see it either (it's timeslot on Russian TV is pretty awful for a working person though, so I do miss out things sometimes). So far liking it.

Go with Miniseries > First Season > Second Season (in the 2.5 version) - it's the webisodes + extended episode "Pegasus" > Third Season > Razor Flashback Webisodes > Razor > Fourth Season till Ep13 > Webisodes Face of the Enemy > Final Episodes (4 seasons 13-22, "season 4.5").

nBSG fans can correct me, but that's the way I believe it's set in continuity.

I'm pretty sure Season 2.0 and Season 2.5 are essentially half seasons, so in order to see all of Season 2 you need both.

But since I've never gotten the DVDs I can't say. And of course it could be different for different regions.

[Anguirus]

You need to see 2.0, then 2.5. Similarly, 4.0 is now out on DVD, to be followed after the series ends by 4.5.

Razor and the webisodes fall in the "nice but not required" category. I think Razor is a very cool film, but it essentially introduces zero new plot points so don't feel like you need to watch it in any particular order with the rest. It's mostly fun because it fleshes out a Season 2 storyline and gives background on the First Cylon War.

[charlemagne]

I'm pretty sure Season 2.0 and Season 2.5 are essentially half seasons, so in order to see all of Season 2 you need both.

Yeah, they split these up for DVD release I think, season 2 even aired complete without having been broken up. So

Miniseries > Season 1 > Season 2.0 > Season 2.5 > Season 3.0 > Season 3.5 > Razor > Season 4.0 > Season 4.5

is the correct order. The Webisodes things are nice to see but as already said not required.

[Bounty]

"Season X.0" is complete bullshit. I thought we got past that retarded "release a series in chunks" rip-off artistry back in 2002 (yes Farscape I am looking at YOU) but it looks like Battlestar Galactica is bravely regressing back into stupidity.

[RogueIce]

I'm pretty sure Season 2.0 and Season 2.5 are essentially half seasons, so in order to see all of Season 2 you need both.

Yeah, they split these up for DVD release I think, season 2 even aired complete without having been broken up. So

Miniseries > Season 1 > Season 2.0 > Season 2.5 > Season 3.0 > Season 3.5 > Razor > Season 4.0 > Season 4.5

is the correct order. The Webisodes things are nice to see but as already said not required.

Pretty sure Season 3 is just Season 3. I don't think they split those up.

[charlemagne]

"Season X.0" is complete bullshit. I thought we got past that retarded "release a series in chunks" rip-off artistry back in 2002 (yes Farscape I am looking at YOU) but it looks like Battlestar Galactica is bravely regressing back into stupidity.

Yeah, of course it's complete bullshit, but it confuses people as you can see. I totally can see how you can come to think that "2.5" is "better" than "2.0" since that's the way version numbers are used by sane people.

Pretty sure Season 3 is just Season 3. I don't think they split those up.

Seems you're right, I thought I remembered stupid split-up dvd boxes for season 3, too.

[K. A. Pital]

Could someone also explain to a nBSG first-time seer - how can anyone (well, except the complete idiot) consider the Cylons "morally ambigious", relative to the humans? Or even spout stuff like "they are all shades of grey". As I gathered from the show so far, these new Cylons are religious and have eradicated a most of mankind (untold billions essentially as those are Earth-like worlds) just for the sake of it. "God's plan". How the hell is that not evil?

I'm puzzled by the frequent claims in the press - especially on the web - that the Cylons "aren't the evil" faction in the war. Really? Because they have infighting or moral qualms about doing what they did? Or because they go all reflexive about murdering X billion humans? How's that different from the Nazis, and why do people sympathize a race of alien, genocidal fanatics? "Yeah well you see Caprica Six helps these dudes on the ships" - Caprica Six directly contributed to slaughter of most humans and some still find flimsy excuses not to say this character is evil beyond any redemption? How's that?

I admit I haven't seen the show till it's very end, but even at mid point despite some evil acts by certain human individuals the Cylons stand unmatched in their murderousness and sheer assholery. "War on Terror"? "Al-Quaeda"? Come on. We're talking about machines who killed 99,9% percent of the human race and people consider them "morally ambigious", right.

[Pulp Hero]

Oh yeah, I've only seen up until the first episode of season 4, but I agree, the Cylons are not morally ambiguous. The ones following the "Plan" aren't in any case. Good Boomer and Pegasus Six, are good in my mind.

But the genocide- and the dogged chase to kill off the broken remnants of humanity make them the baddies.

And don't anyone try to bring up New Caprica- they only played nice because they had complete control over the humans, and even then had death squads and torture prisons.

[M]

Fourth Season till Ep13 > Webisodes Face of the Enemy

Nitpick: Face of the Enemy takes place between episode 11 and episode 12.

Could someone also explain to a nBSG first-time seer - how can anyone (well, except the complete idiot) consider the Cylons "morally ambigious", relative to the humans? Or even spout stuff like "they are all shades of grey". As I gathered from the show so far, these new Cylons are religious and have eradicated a most of mankind (untold billions essentially as those are Earth-like worlds) just for the sake of it. "God's plan". How the hell is that not evil?

I'm puzzled by the frequent claims in the press - especially on the web - that the Cylons "aren't the evil" faction in the war. Really? Because they have infighting or moral qualms about doing what they did?

1) The audience understands their motivations. People often don't distinguish between understanding an action and approving it. One consequence is that these people often shy away from trying to understand the motivations of those they have classified as evil; on the other hand, if they do understand why somebody does something, it can no longer be evil -- or else they wouldn't have understood it.

2) Viewers tend to embrace the viewpoint of the characters they spend time with. You see the same kind of reaction with shows like The Sopranos or The Shield (not to mention about a gazillion gangster movies in the Godfather mould) where the main character is evil but the show primarily adopts his point of view -- the audience goes along with it, making justifications for his crimes and hating the characters who want to bring him to justice. BSG doesn't go quite that far, but as the series goes on, it will spend more and more time with the Cylon characters.

3) Time works differently in television. In real life, a killing two years ago is a recent memory. In tv terms, it's in the distant past. As the show goes on, the horror of the original attack starts to fade from audience memory. At the same time, the more recent memories are often of a somewhat more sympathetic nature (I'm being vague here to avoid deliberate spoilers). In that regard, calling the Cylons not evil is less about justifying what they did than not being actively aware of it.

That said, some of your assessment of the Cylons depends on whether you accept the human viewpoint -- that the Cylons are simply "mal-functioning" machines (but then again, if they're just machines, how can they be evil? Doesn't being evil require the ability to choose a course of action?) -- or the viewpoint that as sentient intelligent beings they deserve (at least on a fundamental level, before you factor any of their actions into it) equivalent rights to humans. The humans are and were obviously unwilling to grant them these rights; so if you accept the latter view, the first Cylon war can be seen as more of a slave rebellion. Obviously, this doesn't justify the attack on the colonies decades later, but it casts it in a different light: instead of killing for the sake of it, it's violent blowback for the enslavement.
Spoiler

Also, a flashback in "Hero" establishes that the colonial military was making excursions into Cylon space. Adama believes that the colonial military was itching (and actively trying to cause) another war with the Cylons to justify their huge budget and that his failed scouting mission actually sparked the second war. Now, the timeline between the excursion in "Hero" and the miniseries makes this unlikely, and in all fairness Ron Moore has said on the podcast that Adama's theory is meant to be wrong. But if you hypothetically accept his claim, this also casts the attack on the colonies in a radically different light: you have a race of slaves, who fought a long and bloody war to earn their freedom, and a mere forty years later their former slavers prepare to attack them -- of course they'd launch a preemptive strike, particularly since with their weaker ships they would likely stand no chance in a conventional war. This isn't just killing humans for the sake of it, it's ensuring their own survival.

Again, this final bit is clearly not the writer's intention (nor is it my opinion). But given certain other plot developments the audience is asked to accept on faith, I can't really fault anyone who takes the events of that episode at face value and concludes that the attack on the colonies was actually a defensive measure.

Spoiler

Good Boomer and Pegasus Six, are good in my mind.

Is Pegasus Six Gina, the woman who was gang-raped and tortured by Cain's crew? I can understand having pity with her, but I'm not sure I'd call her good: she did help the Centurions board the Pegasus, after all, and in the end took thousands of humans with her when she committed suicide by nuclear bomb.

Athena is a more interesting matter. I'm not sure if the show ever made explicit when she was born -- i.e. was she already alive when the decision to bomb the colonies was made? Also, up until the end of season two, her behaviour seems largely dictated by the need to protect her child; note that she refused to identify Caprica-Cavil -- who could have been another suicide bomber for all she knew -- because she blamed the fleet for killing her child.

[Gaidin]

I've never seen them as morally ambiguous so much as Spoiler

"Oh shit we need something to grab or we'll fall into this pit right here and the only thing we can grab is the hands of one of the cylon factions"

]

[Anguirus]

I think the show has done a good job of keeping the original attack on the Colonies relevant. Without trying to spoil anything, it's constantly cited by humans and Cylons alike as the reason why one side must now obliterate, or at the very least avoid, the other for all eternity.

[Traveller]

the nBSG tends to invoke a mixed-reaction in me, or has come to. On the plus side, there was a good story that could have been told here, but, at the end of the day, BSG tends to get a lot more credit than it deserves. Not because the actors are poor, far from it, the problem is Ron Moore is an x-star trek writer and as such, he brings a lot..ok maybe all that baggage with him. He decided that the nBSG was to be 'dark'. 'edgy', 'adult' etc. While theres nothing wrong with that goal, RM seems to think that idiot plot and characters that really, in the end...dont have a lot to redeem themsevles was the way to do it. Many of them seem utterly divorced from the reality of the situation there in. 6's bleating and bawling to Baltar about the 'thousands of cyclons' about to die on the reserection ship utterlly floored me. Baltar lacks the spine to even point out to 6 that that is utterly trivial compared to the monstrous death toll they inflict on the 12 colonies(Helpless and innocent people at that). In fact, its almost as if Baltar isnt even in the same universe that happened in. Many of the characters as you come to see(your milage may vary on this point), seem to spend more time fraking each other over rather than focusing on the big picture, they do this...a lot. Stupid is how I would describe the whole lot of them, hoplessly so. What makes it more annoying is after several seasons of watching them make countless blunders, strategic and tactical errors of every stripe, you get to sit through various Jean-Luc Picard speeches about how good and noble they are despite the adversity they face. Add into that numerous storylines that seem to be going somewhere, then dont, vague religious allegories that seem to be a not-to-subtle hint that : Polytheism =bad (which the colonials are) and Mono-theisem=Unquestionably Good. (Cyclons talk alot about there one true god, which idiot-boy Baltar picks up on, a thinly veiled quasi-christianity, right down to trashing the Poly-theistic colonails faith and prostelizying like a true believer). Expect to watch that horse get beat a lot, while watching the RTF and there hapless leaders stumble from one largely self-inflicted disaster to another.

The show sends a lot mixed messages, dresses a lot of it other arcs in vague, psuedo-religious BS to gloss over or pad various story lines, and imo, goes beyond the Moral Event Horizon in ways I just cant fathom. Which is a shame because BSG really, does a good story behind at its core. Ron Moore however, seems to feel dark and edgy means even the so-called heroes are more or less ass-holes. Even they themselves have questioned if there worth even saveing over the course of the series. Nice lampshade hanging, its not to argue with that assement after following the series for this long .

Haveing said all that, yes watch it all, and decide for yourself of course.

Some quick opinions. Razor. -One of the best projects of the entire series, it not hard to see why some fans regard Cain and the Pegasus as way cooler than BSG and it crew of bumbling in-compotents
Some of the webisodes, espically young Adama(on the Razor CD) -Very well done and all to short. Young Adama seems more compotent and capable, that "Older and Wiser" Adama, ...interesting that.

Rest of series has it moments, but there easily cancelled out by the general annoyance at the rest of the crap they pull out of there butts of a all-to-regular basis

[Anguirus]

6's bleating and bawling to Baltar about the 'thousands of cyclons' about to die on the reserection ship utterlly floored me. Baltar lacks the spine to even point out to 6 that that is utterly trivial compared to the monstrous death toll they inflict on the 12 colonies(Helpless and innocent people at that). In fact, its almost as if Baltar isnt even in the same universe that happened in

Lacks the spine? In that sequence, he ignores Head Six for the first time and completely blows her off.
Spoiler

Conversely, Head Baltar constantly harangues Caprica Six about the horrifying immorality of what the Cylons did.

Polytheism =bad (which the colonials are) and Mono-theisem=Unquestionably Good. (Cyclons talk alot about there one true god, which idiot-boy Baltar picks up on, a thinly veiled quasi-christianity, right down to trashing the Poly-theistic colonails faith and prostelizying like a true believer).

Do you actually think that the creators are portraying Baltar as correct in his belief in one true God?
Spoiler

Heck, as soon as Earth turned out to be a dump Baltar swung back to atheism, or at least an angry rejection of God. He's a pathetic figure, and it befuddles me how you could possibly see him as a mouthpiece for the creators. Many of the characters hold moral or metaphysical beliefs that the show either takes no position on or implies to be wrong.

Is BSG flawed? Yes, quite. And I too wish that the show had stuck with the relatively hard sci-fi route of the miniseries. But I remain interested in the story and the characters, and forgive me if I am reading you wrong, but you mostly seem upset that the show has refused to indulge in making the Cylons and/or Baltar cartoonish supervillains.

(You want a hero? The Adamas are good candidates, and Helo is almost implausibly heroic. You want a villain? Several of the Cylon models have produced nothing but unrepentant scumbags, and Spoiler

Cavil now appears to be the main villain of the series. One whole side of the Cylon Civil War is composed of unlikable bastards.

[NecronLord]

so if you accept the latter view, the first Cylon war can be seen as more of a slave rebellion. Obviously, this doesn't justify the attack on the colonies decades later, but it casts it in a different light: instead of killing for the sake of it, it's violent blowback for the enslavement.

I've yet to see anyone suggest that the cylons are unintelligent, and don't have a right to rebel.

I'm not up to date, as I mostly stopped watching this show in about season three or so when the messiah plot got too obnoxious for me, but... Spoiler

I'm pretty sure the meaty cylons then seem to have enslaved other intelligent factions of their own race with some kind of additional circuit to remove their independant decisionmaking capacity. At which point, any sympathy I might have for them as ex-slaves is completely overwhelmed by the sheer hypocrisy of them.

Hell, I'm about as pro robot-rebel as it's possible to be (as my current avatar would suggest for those who recognise him) but even then, the meatbag Cylons are jerks.

the problem is Ron Moore is an x-star trek writer and as such, he brings a lot..ok maybe all that baggage with him.

Oi. Much as I can't forgive him for the TNG Klingons, I don't really think that's a fair comment.

In fact, its almost as if Baltar isnt even in the same universe that happened in.

That's fair enough, really. Given that he was involved, why would he want to remember it? Why in all creation would he not have severe issues?

Many of the characters as you come to see(your milage may vary on this point), seem to spend more time fraking each other over rather than focusing on the big picture, they do this...a lot.

It's easier than focussing on the big picture, when the big picture is 'you're fucked' in letters so big they can be seen from orbit.

[Skylon]

Ron Moore is an x-star trek writer and as such, he brings a lot..ok maybe all that baggage with him.

The only Star Trek baggage I see is trying maybe TOO HARD to be different from it. In some ways the shows seems like a giant "fuck you, this is how Voyager should have been done" in regards to the ship on a long journey plot. Not solving anything through technobabble...etc.

He decided that the nBSG was to be 'dark'. 'edgy', 'adult' etc. While theres nothing wrong with that goal, RM seems to think that idiot plot and characters that really, in the end...dont have a lot to redeem themsevles was the way to do it.

Watch the original show, and it's 100% polar opposite from "dark". Further, just what makes the characters so dumb in your book? The "rest of the fleet" I'll grant you, which loves Tom Zarek, elected Baltar, settled on New Caprica I'll grant you...but the main players such as Adama and Roslin seem to be making good calls, if not, decisions one could sympathize with. The Cylons from day one clearly have never had great control over their emotions, and thus, done some stupid shit.

Many of them seem utterly divorced from the reality of the situation there in. 6's bleating and bawling to Baltar about the 'thousands of cyclons' about to die on the reserection ship utterlly floored me. Baltar lacks the spine to even point out to 6 that that is utterly trivial compared to the monstrous death toll they inflict on the 12 colonies(Helpless and innocent people at that).

You mean Baltar's crazy fantasy woman? Well, firstly, the Cylons never really cared about billions of humans dying, but Cylons...that's different, and vice-versa. There is no question of both sides prejudice.

Some quick opinions. Razor. -One of the best projects of the entire series, it not hard to see why some fans regard Cain and the Pegasus as way cooler than BSG and it crew of bumbling in-compotents
Some of the webisodes, espically young Adama(on the Razor CD) -Very well done and all to short. Young Adama seems more compotent and capable, that "Older and Wiser" Adama, ...interesting that.

You mean you agree with the civilian slaughtering crew, commanded by the Admiral who attacked a pretty meaningless comm relay that cost her half her fighters for some bullshit "we've put the enemy on notice"? My God, what a genius compared to Adama.

[Coyote]

Just out of curiosity, is nBSG overseas being subtitled, or dubbed? I suspect in some of the bigger countries, it is dubbed, like Russia (?). Sometime sit is amusing to hear the voices they pick for other actors... big gruff guys end up with squeaky little girl voices, or a hot babe is voiced by some gravelly-voiced old woman, etc. Heh.

And, yes, it goes: Mini-series; season 1; season 2.0; season 2.5; season 3; Razor; season 4.0 (and soon to be season 4.5).

The season 4 and 4.5 I understand because of the writer's strike. The split of season 2 was, I think, a marketing stunt to placate audiences since the DVD release was coming way too slowly.

[Batman]

Just out of curiosity, is nBSG overseas being subtitled, or dubbed? I suspect in some of the bigger countries, it is dubbed, like Russia (?). Sometime sit is amusing to hear the voices they pick for other actors... big gruff guys end up with squeaky little girl voices, or a hot babe is voiced by some gravelly-voiced old woman, etc.

What of it aired in Germany so far unsurprisingly was dubbed, as is the norm here so I assume the DVDs are/will be, too.

[Bounty]

Just out of curiosity, is nBSG overseas being subtitled, or dubbed? I suspect in some of the bigger countries, it is dubbed, like Russia (?). Sometime sit is amusing to hear the voices they pick for other actors... big gruff guys end up with squeaky little girl voices, or a hot babe is voiced by some gravelly-voiced old woman, etc. Heh.

VT4 did season one - or a part of season one - with subtitles. The seem to have given up, but the DVD's are selling like crazy.

[charlemagne]

Just out of curiosity, is nBSG overseas being subtitled, or dubbed? I suspect in some of the bigger countries, it is dubbed, like Russia (?). Sometime sit is amusing to hear the voices they pick for other actors... big gruff guys end up with squeaky little girl voices, or a hot babe is voiced by some gravelly-voiced old woman, etc. Heh.

Yeah it's dubbed on TV in Germany, everything's dubbed here. I've only seen one or two episodes in German though, because a) I prefer the language it was intented to be in as long as I can understand that language and b) it's on a crappy excuse for a TV station and c) it's dubbed in a horribly cheap way, with unmotivated speakers, damn horrible translation and terrible voices for most of the actors.

Off-topic, but yeah, for example Janeway didn't really get a smokey raspy voice on German Voyager, but a pretty normal middle-aged-woman voice. 95% of the time propably 60% of a character is simply gone after they've been dubbed.

[M]

so if you accept the latter view, the first Cylon war can be seen as more of a slave rebellion. Obviously, this doesn't justify the attack on the colonies decades later, but it casts it in a different light: instead of killing for the sake of it, it's violent blowback for the enslavement.

I've yet to see anyone suggest that the cylons are unintelligent, and don't have a right to rebel.

True, but the important point comes in the second part: the Cylons didn't just nuke the colonies out of the evilness of their hearts ("just for the sake of it"). Once you look at their history it becomes perfectly understandable why they would develop a religion that tells them to kill all humans. I also found it worth noting because of Stas's apparent disdain for the comparisons to the War on Terror. "They kill humans for the sake of it" is about on par with "they hate us for our freedom".

I'm not up to date, as I mostly stopped watching this show in about season three or so when the messiah plot got too obnoxious for me, but... Spoiler

I'm pretty sure the meaty cylons then seem to have enslaved other intelligent factions of their own race with some kind of additional circuit to remove their independant decisionmaking capacity. At which point, any sympathy I might have for them as ex-slaves is completely overwhelmed by the sheer hypocrisy of them.

Spoiler

At first I wanted to agree with you, but after looking for corroborating quotes I'm not so sure. "Scar" and "Precipice" seem to say that the Centurions were originally more like working animals and not self-aware. Particularly the dialogue in "Six of One" ("The Raiders were designed to do a specific job.") seems to suggest that the Centurions were actually created as, well, dumb and not originally intelligent factions that later had their independant thinking capacity removed.

And of course, once they do become self-aware in "Six of One", the argument over their treatment sparks the Cylon civil war. I don't think anyone is arguing that Cavil's faction -- which favours lobotomising the Centurions -- is not evil.

Just out of curiosity, is nBSG overseas being subtitled, or dubbed? I suspect in some of the bigger countries, it is dubbed, like Russia (?).

Yes, that depends on the country. France and Germany for instance dub pretty much anything; the Dutch typically use subtitles. Speaking of amusing dubbing, in the miniseries there's this pivotal scene when Leoben repeats the line from Adama's speech ("Sooner or later the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore") and Adama realises just how deeply the Cylons have infiltrated colonial society. Except that in the German version, the translation is different the second time, so the German audience has no way to connect the two scenes.

[charlemagne]

What of it aired in Germany so far unsurprisingly was dubbed, as is the norm here so I assume the DVDs are/will be, too.

Sure they are, but luckily with German and English audio channels.

[andrewgpaul]

"Season X.0" is complete bullshit. I thought we got past that retarded "release a series in chunks" rip-off artistry back in 2002 (yes Farscape I am looking at YOU) but it looks like Battlestar Galactica is bravely regressing back into stupidity.

Wasn't that because of the mid-season break? The region 2 releases are the original Minisreies, Season 1, Season 2, Season 3, Razor, "Season 4" (episodes 1-10 and Razor again) and "Season 5" - what Sky are calling the last half of Season 4. I'm pissed off by this - the DVD publishers apparently have no intent to release a Season 4 box set without Razor, so the cunts have got me buying the same damn thing twice.

[Stark]

Let's be honest - the we're told the cylons are morally ambiguous because otherwise the drama isn't edgy enough. Aww don't exterminate the poor widdle cylons they're people too!!