nBSG Episode 4.13 “The Oath” (SPOILERS)

[weemadando]

The same problem applies to killing the mutiners. They are still needed. But you cannot grant amnesty to them all. Execute the leaders and the killers amongst them.

Yeah, I've just gotten a bit annoyed with the whole thing. A bit more "fuck it, you losers want to blow yourselves up fine by me!" than I probably should be. >.>

If say 3/4 of the crew were somehow partying hard on another ship on vacation, I can see spacing large portions of the mutineers. But the sad reality is Galactica is in a shitty situation and she needs her crew badly.

You're right. She needs crew. Not mutinous dogs. Hell - the plus side of this is that there's about to be a shitload less mouths to worry about feeding for a while. And the next election is probably going to be fairly stacked in favour of the Roslin/Adama faction with Zarek's voter base being, you know, dead.

[Thanas]

What really can hurt Galactica in a huge way is that most of the marines seem to have switched sides. That means potentially huge casualties of the loyal crew.

[weemadando]

Just watched it. They're going to need a bigger airlock. And I really do get the feeling that we're going to see some Centurions storming Galactica again.

I can believe that they will kill off the Admiral and Tigh. Which makes me almost certain that there is going to be one fucker of a reckoning coming for the traitors.

My predictions?
Gaeta & Zarek - airlocked by Roslin.
All other mutineers - executed by Centurions.

Oh - and you just know that Cavill and the massive Cylon pursuit fleet is going to show up with about 30 seconds left in the ep.

*edit* and oh yeah. That's a 5. It looks like they're back on track and doing the nBSG that I love, not the hand-wavium mystical shit.

Geata might regain some self control when he realizes what his mutineers were doing or trying to do with Athena and Helo as well as the possible deaths of Adama and Rosilyn. In this case Geata might commit suicide.

Well, that's a possibility - or he might try and stop the executions and be killed by hardliners.

Or it's possible that Adama's sheer force of badassery results in a time-space rip and Crockett and Tubbs coming through and saving Galactica.

Actually - fuck yes. That's the finale I want to this 2 parter.

[LMSx]

I think by writer's fiat we know that the rebel Cylons aren't double agents, but I find it very easy for average Joe Citizen on a ship to be scared shitless of Cylons tampering with the FTL drives. What if they secretly sabotage it so the fleet is helpless when the Cylons strike? That seems a very pragmatic concern for the population, but it feels like it got skimmed over for general "boo Cylons" sentiment and quarrels over the legal reach of the Quorum.

[Thanas]

Having watched the webisodes, I think Gaeta just snapped. Plus, his best friend killing herself...that would have pushed anyone over the edge.

I don't think he really recognizes the enormity of what he did.

[weemadando]

Having watched the webisodes, I think Gaeta just snapped. Plus, his best friend killing herself...that would have pushed anyone over the edge.

I don't think he really recognizes the enormity of what he did.

When he hits open space outside the airlock, that's pretty enormous. It should serve as an apt comparison for him

[Crown]

Could you refresh my memory? Where was it shown that the negotiation were going to end in a double cross?

I could be getting my twists mixed up, but during the whole 'kill the hub' mission, both sides were going to make a smash and grab for D'anna to ensure the other couldn't run off with them. Not that it mattered in the end, for as soon as D'anna woke up, she promptly put a gun to Roslyn's head and held the fleet to ransom for the remaining 5.

They destroyed the restoration hub, losing almost all their raiders in the process. They have been quite conciliatory as well - at no point did they demand that Caprica would be freed, or that Hera would be turned over. Heck, them sharing jump tech may very well be the only method of restitution available to them.

On what basis could they have argued for Hera's return? Her parents are both Colonial officers who have no loyalties to the Cylons. More to the former argument; the Hub was their objective. They wanted it destroyed more than the Colonials to fulfill their own goals. That it happened to coincide with a Colonial objective was incidental. And lets not forget that now that downloading is off the table, reproduction is back on.

Sure, you may argue that they place unreasonable demands, but what are those? Demanding to be treated equally? Like Partners should in an alliance? Heck, they only demand one seat, which given to their use to the fleet and the fact that they are first on the list of getting nuked by Cavil...I do not think those are that unreasonable. Fact is, if Cylons and Humans are going to build a future together - and given the low numbers of females around, Cylon models may very well be the only thing that will ensure the future of the human race - they have to start somewhere.

All you need to start a new colony is around 100 strangers[1]. There is enough genetic diversity in 100 strangers to ensure a successful population of offspring while avoiding in breeding. Are you arguing that a fleet of 49k lacks 100 child bearing capable adults? If so post the numbers. It's something that has been posted a few times in this thread how 'humanity cannot afford to lose one more person!', but it has never been actually demonstrated or proven to be true. Ironically the very same people who sprout this rubbish are the ones who are also 'hanging out' for Adama and co to 'clean house' next episode ...

What would you do in Adama's place?

Told them to fuck off. Or at least remind them that giving the fleet Cylon FTL tech would benefit them more as it will allow the fleet to move at their speed, and make it harder for Cavil to catch up, and easier for all of them to get away. Or in other words negotiate a fucking deal that would not involve high treason by giving genocidal machines a seat at the power table.




[1] - Taken (from memory) from 'The Millennial Project; How to Colonize the Galaxy in 8 Easy Steps'.

[Crown]

the rest of the rebels have done jack and shit.

What about executing a successful attack on the installation that allows their society to reproduce? There's a good chance that they have doomed their own species to extinction already by this act. What more do you want from them, an immediate mass suicide?

Err no. The Hub never allowed them to reproduce, it in fact - as now seen in show - prohibited them from doing that. And why is the Hub such a big loss? It's a piece of hardware that can be reproduced, all it did was give Cavil pause. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

[Thanas]

Could you refresh my memory? Where was it shown that the negotiation were going to end in a double cross?

I could be getting my twists mixed up, but during the whole 'kill the hub' mission, both sides were going to make a smash and grab for D'anna to ensure the other couldn't run off with them. Not that it mattered in the end, for as soon as D'anna woke up, she promptly put a gun to Roslyn's head and held the fleet to ransom for the remaining 5.

Hmm. Not having the episode at hand, I'll concede the point.

They destroyed the restoration hub, losing almost all their raiders in the process. They have been quite conciliatory as well - at no point did they demand that Caprica would be freed, or that Hera would be turned over. Heck, them sharing jump tech may very well be the only method of restitution available to them.

On what basis could they have argued for Hera's return? Her parents are both Colonial officers who have no loyalties to the Cylons. More to the former argument; the Hub was their objective. They wanted it destroyed more than the Colonials to fulfill their own goals. That it happened to coincide with a Colonial objective was incidental. And lets not forget that now that downloading is off the table, reproduction is back on. [/quote]

Very well, no Hera. Still leaves the fact that they did not demand Caprica to be handed back. And nice of you to ignore my point about the Cylons having little methods of restitution.

All you need to start a new colony is around 100 strangers[1]. There is enough genetic diversity in 100 strangers to ensure a successful population of offspring while avoiding in breeding. Are you arguing that a fleet of 49k lacks 100 child bearing capable adults? If so post the numbers. It's something that has been posted a few times in this thread how 'humanity cannot afford to lose one more person!', but it has never been actually demonstrated or proven to be true. Ironically the very same people who sprout this rubbish are the ones who are also 'hanging out' for Adama and co to 'clean house' next episode ...

The fleet will need massive new numbers in order to support the ageing population. That is the reason why they cannot afford to loose child bearing people.

What would you do in Adama's place?

Told them to fuck off. Or at least remind them that giving the fleet Cylon FTL tech would benefit them more as it will allow the fleet to move at their speed, and make it harder for Cavil to catch up, and easier for all of them to get away. Or in other words negotiate a fucking deal that would not involve high treason by giving genocidal machines a seat at the power table.

That will work really well, I bet. Hey, give us your tech, but we will give you nothing in return.

[Ohma]

All you need to start a new colony is around 100 strangers. There is enough genetic diversity in 100 strangers to ensure a successful population of offspring while avoiding in breeding. Are you arguing that a fleet of 49k lacks 100 child bearing capable adults? If so post the numbers. It's something that has been posted a few times in this thread how 'humanity cannot afford to lose one more person!', but it has never been actually demonstrated or proven to be true. Ironically the very same people who sprout this rubbish are the ones who are also 'hanging out' for Adama and co to 'clean house' next episode ...

Oh well thank goodness for that, I was getting worried about humanity being like, pretty close to extinction and everything. But since they only need a hundred people I guess it's TOTALLY FINE to kill off a bunch of other people who we don't like. Just so long as there's a hundred left EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE! :V

[Crown]

Very well, no Hera. Still leaves the fact that they did not demand Caprica to be handed back. And nice of you to ignore my point about the Cylons having little methods of restitution.

Yeah, and they could have also demanded her return when D'anna held the entire fleet hostage for the final 5 ... but they didn't. Maybe they simply didn't care about her? And for methods of making restitution; oh, I don't know, how about offering to share better FTL tech for the betterment of BOTH their positions, and asking nothing in return? Wow, you kinda walked into that one, eh?

The fleet will need massive new numbers in order to support the ageing population. That is the reason why they cannot afford to loose child bearing people.

Right, and you have the fleets demographics to post to support your position? No? Hmmm ....

Look, even if the fleet was suffering from an over abundant geriatric population ready to carck it, realistically they have to except that their standard of living out look kind of took a nosed dive when humanity was wiped out by massive genocidal nuclear holocaust, no?

That will work really well, I bet. Hey, give us your tech, but we will give you nothing in return.

Yes, because completely abandoning your principles to the articles of colonisation, rebuffing the civilian government and forcing a situation on a civilian population that was demonstrably not willing to accept (hello? 10 ships flat out said no, and another 12 went radio silent on Galactica), worked out so much better?

And what point of reference are you idiots using to assume that the Colonial Military and Government should be more sensitive to the feelings of the genocidal machines and not their own population? Jesus Christ; FUCK THE REBELS. They aren't going anywhere, for all their bluster they are lost and fucked hard without the Colonial Fleet. It is in their best interest to upgrade the FTL, all it would have taken is a used car salesman to see this, and yet the great and wonderful Adama totally missed it. Felix is right in his mutiny, if for no other reason that Adama is clearly suffering from diminished responsibility on the account that he is either senile or insane.

[Thanas]

A question: Why was Adama's stand even necessary? They could all have gone on the Raptor.

[Crown]

Oh well thank goodness for that, I was getting worried about humanity being like, pretty close to extinction and everything. But since they only need a hundred people I guess it's TOTALLY FINE to kill off a bunch of other people who we don't like. Just so long as there's a hundred left EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE! :V

And if my argument was; it's okay they only killed 48.5k out of the 49k fleet you guys are over reacting! Your sarcastic diarrhea would be spot on. But since the body count has not even been tallied and we can safely assume that it hasn't even gotted above 1k yet. And my point is nothing of the kind, it kind of makes you look like a complete and utter idiot. Have fun.

[Thanas]

Very well, no Hera. Still leaves the fact that they did not demand Caprica to be handed back. And nice of you to ignore my point about the Cylons having little methods of restitution.

Yeah, and they could have also demanded her return when D'anna held the entire fleet hostage for the final 5 ... but they didn't. Maybe they simply didn't care about her? And for methods of making restitution; oh, I don't know, how about offering to share better FTL tech for the betterment of BOTH their positions, and asking nothing in return? Wow, you kinda walked into that one, eh?

Yeah, that would work in Fairyland. Let's give up our one advantage and leave us entirely at the mercy of the humans....

The fleet will need massive new numbers in order to support the ageing population. That is the reason why they cannot afford to loose child bearing people.

Right, and you have the fleets demographics to post to support your position? No? Hmmm ....

Look, even if the fleet was suffering from an over abundant geriatric population ready to carck it, realistically they have to except that their standard of living out look kind of took a nosed dive when humanity was wiped out by massive genocidal nuclear holocaust, no?

C'mon Crown. You cannot really expect the civilization to survive in the current numbers until more babies are born. Roslin said so herself.

That will work really well, I bet. Hey, give us your tech, but we will give you nothing in return.

Yes, because completely abandoning your principles to the articles of colonisation, rebuffing the civilian government and forcing a situation on a civilian population that was demonstrably not willing to accept (hello? 10 ships flat out said no, and another 12 went radio silent on Galactica), worked out so much better?

Better than giving up their only bargaining chip.

And what point of reference are you idiots using to assume that the Colonial Military and Government should be more sensitive to the feelings of the genocidal machines and not their own population? Jesus Christ; FUCK THE REBELS. They aren't going anywhere, for all their bluster they are lost and fucked hard without the Colonial Fleet.

They are both lost and fucked hard without each other. No cylon FTL, guess who Cavil is going to find first? The fleet needs the FTL.

It is in their best interest to upgrade the FTL, all it would have taken is a used car salesman to see this, and yet the great and wonderful Adama totally missed it. Felix is right in his mutiny, if for no other reason that Adama is clearly suffering from diminished responsibility on the account that he is either senile or insane.

No. You need to start building trust and that starts by treating each other in a fair manner. Your method would result in Adama essentially trying to extort the FTL. With no guarantee of succeeding.

[weemadando]

A question: Why was Adama's stand even necessary? They could all have gone on the Raptor.

I'd say it was a play to see just how committed the mutineers are. Are they willing to shoot him and Tigh now that their primary objective is out of their reach?

[Thanas]

But if he wanted to make such a play, wouldn't it have been better to not start shooting at them without the marines getting a good look at him first?

[Ohma]

And if my argument was; it's okay they only killed 48.5k out of the 49k fleet you guys are over reacting! Your sarcastic diarrhea would be spot on. But since the body count has not even been tallied and we can safely assume that it hasn't even gotted above 1k yet. And my point is nothing of the kind, it kind of makes you look like a complete and utter idiot. Have fun.

So what is your point then? From my reading you're arguing that the mutineers are justified in killing off members of the crew (again, people who have skills that are useful to the continued survival of the fleet and people in it) because they disagree with Adama and Roslin's plans to ally with the rebel Cylons in an effort to maximize the fleet's chances of finding a new habitable planet to live on. To refute the point that the Fleet and Rebel Cylons need each other to have a reasonable chance of surviving to find a new world and ensure the survival of both species, you pointed out that the fleet only needs a hundred people to be able to continue the human species.

I am unsure of how to interpret that as other than suggesting that it would be acceptable to lose the majority of the fleet so long as they don't have to deal with the Cylon Rebels on equal terms.

[Crown]

Yeah, that would work in Fairyland. Let's give up our one advantage and leave us entirely at the mercy of the humans....

Ah, so restitution is instead gained by blackmail, coercion, hostage negotiations and Mexican standoffs? Please stop wasting my fucking time.

C'mon Crown. You cannot really expect the civilization to survive in the current numbers until more babies are born. Roslin said so herself.

No shit babies need to born to get another generation going? Holy fucking shock there Batman! That's never occurred to me! Now show me how or where I ever disagreed with this sentiment, or how the mutiny that is localised on Galactica has interfered with this.

Better than giving up their only bargaining chip.

Re-read my response, and then yours and tell me what the two have to do with each other? What bargaining chip was Adama holding onto by completely acquiescing to the genocidal skinjobs demands?

They are both lost and fucked hard without each other. No cylon FTL, guess who Cavil is going to find first? The fleet needs the FTL.

At the risk of getting totally owned by writer's fiat; no they don't. Cavil's only lead on the fleet was that they were heading for Earth. Guess what? Been there, seen that, moved on. And now? Space is a HUGE - well space. Unless he has a spy on the inside the chances of him finding them are so infinitesimal as to be non-existent. And he'd go for the Rebels first, you know that as well as me, it's easier to kill one ship than try for the whole fleet.

No. You need to start building trust and that starts by treating each other in a fair manner. Your method would result in Adama essentially trying to extort the FTL. With no guarantee of succeeding.

Oh I'm sorry, I'm again caught in this thing called 'the real world' where the victim of a rape shouldn't exactly be expected hand out a fucking loan to the rapist who since then has taken her hostage and blackmailed her and who has not even offered to pay for the dry cleaning bill for the dress he sullied.

My God, this is the twilight zone.

[Thanas]

Yeah, that would work in Fairyland. Let's give up our one advantage and leave us entirely at the mercy of the humans....

Ah, so restitution is instead gained by blackmail, coercion, hostage negotiations and Mexican standoffs? Please stop wasting my fucking time.

No, it is gained by helping each other to the best of the ability. Somehow, in your world, this means one side should completely surrender every advantage to people who repeatedly tried to kill them.

C'mon Crown. You cannot really expect the civilization to survive in the current numbers until more babies are born. Roslin said so herself.

No shit babies need to born to get another generation going? Holy fucking shock there Batman! That's never occurred to me! Now show me how or where I ever disagreed with this sentiment, or how the mutiny that is localised on Galactica has interfered with this.

More dead people = less babies being born. Is that so hard to understand?

Better than giving up their only bargaining chip.

Re-read my response, and then yours and tell me what the two have to do with each other? What bargaining chip was Adama holding onto by completely acquiescing to the genocidal skinjobs demands?

I was talking about the Cylon perspective. They gain one seat on the council, being ordered around by humans in exchange for surrendering their only bargaining chip.

They are both lost and fucked hard without each other. No cylon FTL, guess who Cavil is going to find first? The fleet needs the FTL.

At the risk of getting totally owned by writer's fiat; no they don't. Cavil's only lead on the fleet was that they were heading for Earth. Guess what? Been there, seen that, moved on. And now? Space is a HUGE - well space. Unless he has a spy on the inside the chances of him finding them are so infinitesimal as to be non-existent. And he'd go for the Rebels first, you know that as well as me, it's easier to kill one ship than try for the whole fleet.

That is a ridiculous argument. We have a single ship on the run. Then we have a whole fleet (guess what: bigger dradis signature etc), that moves slower than the single ship and is composed primarily of civilian ships.

And you suggest that somehow Cavil is more likely to find a single ship with a faster FTL? Really?

No. You need to start building trust and that starts by treating each other in a fair manner. Your method would result in Adama essentially trying to extort the FTL. With no guarantee of succeeding.

Oh I'm sorry, I'm again caught in this thing called 'the real world' where the victim of a rape shouldn't exactly be expected hand out a fucking loan to the rapist who since then has taken her hostage and blackmailed her and who has not even offered to pay for the dry cleaning bill for the dress he sullied.

Thank you for the theatrics and I fail to see why you brought rape into this. Thank you also for ignoring my point - they have to start trusting each other. Do you agree with the fact that allies have to trust each other?

[Bladed_Crescent]

It's also worth pointing out that treating the rebel Cylons like second-class citizens is precisely what you shouldn't do. Remember the extermination of the Colonies, the years of being hunted? You know what prompted that? Yeah, being treated as slaves and the belief that humanity would never see them any other way. "Give us your technology, do exactly what we tell you and at some point in the future, you might get a treat. What's that? You're not grateful? Well, frak you!"

Yes, that's most appropriate way to act: once again treating the Cylons as servants will in no way to come back the humans in the ass.

This is not to say that the Rebels don't need to work towards redemption, atonement - whatever you want to call it. They are; Natalie traded the Hub for Three. When Roslin asked what she had to trade for their help in reviving D'Anna, Natalie gave up the Hub. She gave Adama its current location on nothing more than his word that he wouldn't turn around and shaft them. After meeting with the Quorum, she told the Eights and Twos to scuttle the plan to take hostages, that they needed to be the ones to make the first effort. They didn't betray the Viper pilots they were towing in battle or use them for cannon fodder as the pilots expected. Since the Rebels have arrived in the fleet, they have been making compromises to the humans. As others have pointed out, they just don't have a lot to give.

For a species who's major hang-up is being treated like easily-replaced slaves, useful for their technology and nothing else, acting that way towards them is going to do quite a bit to sabotage any alliance. "Look, don't worry your silicon heads. You just sit on your baseship, stay away from us, give us everything we need and let us make all the decisions for you."

This isn't to say that the Rebels are suddenly relieved of all responsibility for their part in the genocide, but the truth is they have been trying to get along and if the humans continue to spit in their faces, treating them as appliances or children who should only speak when spoken to... yeah.

[Thanas]

Nevermind the fact that they have not called for retribution towards the murder of their leader by a psychotic colonial officer.

[Crown]

So what is your point then?

My point is that 'OMG ppl are the dieing and humanitz is skrewed!!!SHIFT+1' is a fucking pathetic non-argument, especially when you consider the fleet population, what is realistically needed as the bear minimum for successful re-population and how the death toll has not even reached the 100's yet.

I am unsure of how to interpret that as other than suggesting that it would be acceptable to lose the majority of the fleet so long as they don't have to deal with the Cylon Rebels on equal terms.

Then I suggest you take some reading and comprehension 101 before making idiotic sarcastic non-points in the future.

[DrMckay]

Allies don't have to trust each other-they just have to hate each other slightly less than the people they're fighting. Look at the Allies and the Soviet Union in World War Two, for fucksake.

[Crown]

Ah, so restitution is instead gained by blackmail, coercion, hostage negotiations and Mexican standoffs? Please stop wasting my fucking time.

No, it is gained by helping each other to the best of the ability. Somehow, in your world, this means one side should completely surrender every advantage to people who repeatedly tried to kill them.

I asked you to stop wasting my time, clearly you didn't understand, so I'll repeat; the argument was originally about restitution. The Rebels have not shown one iota of desire to give anything, unless they get something in return (to date at the point of a nuke), have they made restitution for their crimes? No. Could they have, well one way was to upgrade the FTL with no strings attached, they didn't. Case closed.

More dead people = less babies being born. Is that so hard to understand?

Ah, so all of these people were parents in lieu of some colonial breeding program? Check.

I was talking about the Cylon perspective. They gain one seat on the council, being ordered around by humans in exchange for surrendering their only bargaining chip.

They gain political power, the ability to play deal broker (12 seats +1 = 13, 13 is an odd number, can you say swing vote?) and a GUARANTEE that Adama will risk his ass, and thus humanities fate on their skins when Cavil comes a knockin' ... yeah, what a fucking bad deal for them.

That is a ridiculous argument. We have a single ship on the run. Then we have a whole fleet (guess what: bigger dradis signature etc), that moves slower than the single ship and is composed primarily of civilian ships.

And you suggest that somehow Cavil is more likely to find a single ship with a faster FTL? Really?

They're moving in a convey genius, the Rebels move with the fleet, Cavil will be more interested in destroying their basestar than anything else at this point in time.

Oh I'm sorry, I'm again caught in this thing called 'the real world' where the victim of a rape shouldn't exactly be expected hand out a fucking loan to the rapist who since then has taken her hostage and blackmailed her and who has not even offered to pay for the dry cleaning bill for the dress he sullied.

Thank you for the theatrics and I fail to see why you brought rape into this. Thank you also for ignoring my point - they have to start trusting each other. Do you agree with the fact that allies have to trust each other?

Because the analogy is apt moron. The Cylons (the Rebels included) gang banged humanity. Now they've had a falling out within the gang, so half of these gang bangers met up with what's left of humanity and has since then; blackmailed, extorted and taken them hostage, and now they want a fucking credit rating for doing something that would be in their best interest to do anyway.

[Crown]

Nevermind the fact that they have not called for retribution towards the murder of their leader by a psychotic colonial officer.

Oh that would have been rich;

Rebel genocidal machine skinjobs; One of your officers killed our delegate to your ship!

Colonial; Would this delegate be the same delegate who was responsible for the extermination of 99% of humanity on the unprovoked attack that took place 4 years ago? The same delegate who later ran death camps and summary executions on New Caprica?

RGMS; Yes! Now if you were at all honorable people you would shoot your officer!

Colonial; We'll get back to you .. oh wait, no, how about no? Does that work for you?