nBSG Episode 4.13 “The Oath” (SPOILERS)

[Ohma]

My point is that 'OMG ppl are the dieing and humanitz is skrewed!!!SHIFT+1' is a fucking pathetic non-argument, especially when you consider the fleet population, what is realistically needed as the bear minimum for successful re-population and how the death toll has not even reached the 100's yet.

You have no way of knowing how many people have died. Granted, I'd be amazed if it were much over a hundred, but you don't get to assume a random number any more than I do. Furthermore, you've gone back to what I was getting at before. If it *isn't* a problem for people to die in a retarded coup in the fleet so long as their numbers remain above a minimum level necessary to sustain some future colony...somewhere..., then why is it a problem to work with genocidal robots offering to fit their super FTL onto their ships in exchange for being treated like equals in their society?

[DrMckay]

At no point did the REBEL cylons treat the humans like equals. They used them as bargaining chips and cannon fodder in the attack on the Hub. That is NOT how you treat an equal. Not that the humans are any prize themselves, but I am so damn sick of the "poor victimized cylon meme."

[Crown]

It's also worth pointing out that treating the rebel Cylons like second-class citizens is precisely what you shouldn't do.

I agree. But completely and utterly treating your own populations wishes as irrelevant is even more bizarre, wouldn't you agree?

Remember the extermination of the Colonies, the years of being hunted? You know what prompted that? Yeah, being treated as slaves and the belief that humanity would never see them any other way. "Give us your technology, do exactly what we tell you and at some point in the future, you might get a treat. What's that? You're not grateful? Well, frak you!"

Yes, that's most appropriate way to act: once again treating the Cylons as servants will in no way to come back the humans in the ass.

Don't be an ass. Not caving like a house of cards to their demands does not equal into turning the Cylons into the galactic whipping boys again.

This is not to say that the Rebels don't need to work towards redemption, atonement - whatever you want to call it. They are; Natalie traded the Hub for Three. When Roslin asked what she had to trade for their help in reviving D'Anna, Natalie gave up the Hub. She gave Adama its current location on nothing more than his word that he wouldn't turn around and shaft them. After meeting with the Quorum, she told the Eights and Twos to scuttle the plan to take hostages, that they needed to be the ones to make the first effort. They didn't betray the Viper pilots they were towing in battle or use them for cannon fodder as the pilots expected. Since the Rebels have arrived in the fleet, they have been making compromises to the humans. As others have pointed out, they just don't have a lot to give.

Yeah, I loved it when D'anna had a gun to Roslyn's head, and a nuke down the fleets throats wasn't any sort of betrayal ... oh wait!

For a species who's major hang-up is being treated like easily-replaced slaves, useful for their technology and nothing else, acting that way towards them is going to do quite a bit to sabotage any alliance. "Look, don't worry your silicon heads. You just sit on your baseship, stay away from us, give us everything we need and let us make all the decisions for you."

Where the fuck was anyone suggesting that this would have been a viable approach? In case you missed it - yet again - the mutiny is taking place NOT because Adama is upgrading the FTL, but because he's actively adding enemy representation to the government. Are you fucking insane to think that this would just fly with the human population? Especially after New Caprica?

This isn't to say that the Rebels are suddenly relieved of all responsibility for their part in the genocide, but the truth is they have been trying to get along and if the humans continue to spit in their faces, treating them as appliances or children who should only speak when spoken to... yeah.

I don't believe this thread, this must be the first instance of Stockholm Syndrome via osmosis in recorded history...

[Crown]

You have no way of knowing how many people have died.

I know that it is no where near enough to start with the histrionics which is all I need to know to make my point.

.... then why is it a problem to work with genocidal robots offering to fit their super FTL onto their ships in exchange for being treated like equals in their society?

.... then why is it a problem to work with genocidal robots

genocidal robots

Really, you need this explained to you? Do you like need a flow chart or something? Crayon colouring-in perhaps?

[Crown]

At no point did the REBEL cylons treat the humans like equals. They used them as bargaining chips and cannon fodder in the attack on the Hub. That is NOT how you treat an equal. Not that the humans are any prize themselves, but I am so damn sick of the "poor victimized cylon meme."

Cylons are humans too you spiciest meanie!

[Ohma]

At no point did the REBEL cylons treat the humans like equals. They used them as bargaining chips and cannon fodder in the attack on the Hub. That is NOT how you treat an equal. Not that the humans are any prize themselves, but I am so damn sick of the "poor victimized cylon meme."

Oh yes certainly. My point is that right now, survival should trump principal in BSG 'verse. Killing or imprisoning people due to their willingness to work with a group you find repugnant, particularly when said people have skills necessary to keep one of the things that's helping you continue surviving functional, is counter productive in the extreme.
I'm also annoyed that groups and characters in nBSG ALWAYS jump to "fuck it, let's just kill 'em" as a solution, hence why I'm currently rooting for mutual annihilation through spectacular CG to end the show.

Really, you need this explained to you? Do you like need a flow chart or something? Crayon colouring-in perhaps?

Yes please. It would certainly do a better job of explaining your point (whatever it is) than you've been doing.

[DrMckay]

Oh yes certainly. My point is that right now, survival should trump principal in BSG 'verse. Killing or imprisoning people due to their willingness to work with a group you find repugnant, particularly when said people have skills necessary to keep one of the things that's helping you continue surviving functional, is counter productive in the extreme.

"Why are we as a people worth saving?'

-Adama, Miniseries, and oft-quoted.

Galactica is not about making the right choice or the smart choice, because that's not readily apparent to the characters. It's about making the least shitty choice out of a handful of REALLY shitty ones, because maybe, just maybe that choice will enable them to survive, for some of them to be worthy of survival for just one more day. Gaeta's making his choice. Adama's made his. And Roslin's gonna make hers.

[Crown]

Really, you need this explained to you? Do you like need a flow chart or something? Crayon colouring-in perhaps?

Yes please. It would certainly do a better job of explaining your point (whatever it is) than you've been doing.

....

You have no way of knowing how many people have died.

I know that it is no where near enough to start with the histrionics which is all I need to know to make my point.

Do you need help with the big words or something?

[Ohma]

You have no way of knowing how many people have died.

I know that it is no where near enough to start with the histrionics which is all I need to know to make my point.

Do you need help with the big words or something?

What histrionics? I was sarcastic earlier...but I'm sarcastic a lot...I am irritated by the tendency of characters in nBSG to nearly always choose a course of action that will be more extreme than is helpful...I'm not sure where you're getting me being overly emotional here. It's not like I'm weeping because the poor widdle waiders got lobotomized *sniffle*...more like groaning at another decision by someone on the show that will make things more difficult than they need to be.

[Bladed_Crescent]

I don't recall saying anything about the humans' political situation, so kindly do not put words or arguments in my mouth. I am just pointing out that treating the Cylons like a cash register whenever you want something and giving them nothing in return (We'll get to this in more detail) is not a good idea.

Yes, Adama could have been more tactful. Yes, Roslin should have been there to quell the troubles. Yes, the Cylons have a lot to answer for.

No, treating the baseship like your butt-monkey is not the best negotiating strategy. They have something that will improve humanity's chances of survival. In exchange, they ask for not being "toasters" anymore but citizens. It's not a pardon. Well, probably. Roslin pardoned every human who sided with them on New Caprica and then turning around and flipping the Cylons the finger for the same thing...

But it's not absolution, it's not a mandate that everyone in the fleet has to smile, wave and hug them. It's not an amnesia ray to make people forget about all their loved ones. It's something that says "for better or worse, you are now a part of this fleet. In return, you will help us and know that we're not going to kill you or cut loose as soon as it's expedient."

So, onwards:

But completely and utterly treating your own populations wishes as irrelevant is even more bizarre, wouldn't you agree?

I don't believe I said otherwise. However, if that population refuses to accept a benefit that will - at a minumum - triple their chances of surviving, what else is there? I posit that it's far more bizarre to accept the wishes of the populace when those wishes significantly increase the chance of them - and you - dying of hunger and thirst in the vastness of space, or being reduced to radioactive shards of armour and charred gobbets of flesh.

The Quorum and the Fleet refused to accept these upgrades. Without them, the Cylons that are still set on 'crush-kill-destroy' will, sooner or later find the fleet. After all, any lead the Fleet managed to eke out by jumping straight to Earth will be steadily eaten away as the warships with more than triple their range expand their search to find them.

Convoy speed fucks the humans more than the Cylons.

Don't be an ass. Not caving like a house of cards to their demands does not equal into turning the Cylons into the galactic whipping boys again.

Jesus Christ; FUCK THE REBELS. They aren't going anywhere, for all their bluster they are lost and fucked hard without the Colonial Fleet. It is in their best interest to upgrade the FTL, all it would have taken is a used car salesman to see this, and yet the great and wonderful Adama totally missed it. Felix is right in his mutiny, if for no other reason that Adama is clearly suffering from diminished responsibility on the account that he is either senile or insane.

Told them to fuck off. Or at least remind them that giving the fleet Cylon FTL tech would benefit them more as it will allow the fleet to move at their speed, and make it harder for Cavil to catch up, and easier for all of them to get away. Or in other words negotiate a fucking deal that would not involve high treason by giving genocidal machines a seat at the power table.

So, what "deal" would you suggest striking, that gives the Cylons absolutely nothing of any real value and yet, doesn't make them "whipping boys"? You've said that your approach is to tell them to hand over the tech and sit and rotate. Appealing to their sense of self-interest is all well and good in theory. In practice, they're crippled one ship surrounded by people who hate them and can kill them with no repercussions whatsoever. That sounds like some good self-interest to me!

Seriously, what can Adama offer that doesn't include something legal and binding? "Protection"? Without any guarantees, there's no reason to assume Galactica (or Zarek once Roslin passes) won't cut Rebellion (if the Resurrection ship was originally called Resurrection, I'm calling the Rebel Cylon baseship Rebellion to save time) loose if Cavil's fleet shows up. After all, the Rebel Cylons are just frakking toasters. They're not human and everything they've done for us? Revealing the Hub, risking their now-mortal lives to take it out, upgrading our tech? Fuck 'em. Got what we wanted, after all.

What else is there to offer? Machinery and industry? Rebellion is self-repairing and sure as shit the Colonials are not going to be replacing the Cylon missiles and Raiders. The only thing the Cylons can count on is if they are part of the Colonial Fleet, then they can't just be dismissed or shoved off to the side when they're no needed.

So, I ask you, genuinely curious: what else can Adama offer to the Cylons? "Nothing" is a valid answer, of course. But then it comes back to "give us what we want and maybe we'll possibily consider doing something for you at some undetermined date".

Right now Cylons can even be killed with impunity and their murderers get a mulligan for it. That is an excellent way to encourage cooperation between two warships (who I may remind you, are in the middle of a fleet of civilians) consisting of people who hate and fear each other. Let one side be viewed as completely disposable.

It's the BEST PLAN EVER to marginalize and say "fuck them" to the crew of one of those ships, isn't it? As long as we're taking a stand against those dirty, filthy toasters nothing bad could ever possibly happen as a result.

But but but the Colonies! New Caprica! Buh huh huh huh haaaaa!

Yes, the Cylons participated in a brutal genocide. No, that shouldn't be forgotten or even forgiven. But the Rebels have done a lot already: they led humanity to Earth (just because it's a shithole know doesn't mean anything; both sides thought it would be a paradise). They destroyed the means of Cylon resurrection and even if a new Hub can be built, have cut themselves off from it in order to stay with the humans. They gave the location of the Hub freely when all they had was one man's word that he wouldn't take it and fuck them. They cancelled their plans to take hostages, believing that they needed to be the first to change. And now, all they want is the right not be tossed aside like garbage.

You're absolutely right: fuck 'em.

Is every single Cylon ever responsible for the attack on the Colonies? One of the Sixes on Rebellion was nothing more than technician working to keep the humans' water treatment plant functioning and she was brutally killed because, hey, she's a Cylon and therefore, absolutely positively had to be directly responsible for everything that happened to humanity. Also, we'll just say that Natalie was one of the models responsible for genocide instead of attacking military targets and that'll make it true. It's a war crime to exterminate civilians, no doubt. Is it a war crime to simply serve the same agency and attack military targets? Apparently!

To expand: Natalie could have been responsible for war crimes. That's very possible. Or she could have been like Gina, a soldier with a strictly military mission. No, sorry - I forgot that every Cylon ever is personally, utterly and completely responsible for every evil deed of the entire race. It just makes it a lot easier to say they are, doesn't it?

I hate having to come across as some kind of Cylon apologist, but when the opposing argument is similar to: Arghl bargl rassa frass genocidal robtos! You expect to help us and get something out of it! You have to know your place! Rant froth rail curse foam, it makes it hard not to seem like one.

Also: fucking yes is the human fleet is a higher priority for Cavil. They have thousands of people, dozens of ships and a rudimentary industry... plus they can't run as far or fast as a baseship. The rebels have the crippled Rebellion and no access to a resurrection network. Do you not see the difference here? The humans, if allowed to live, can build and breed back into a new army. The Rebels... can't. All they have is that one ship, so if comes to a choice between the fleet and Rebellion, which is the more logical target?

Again: the Fleet cannot move as fast as the baseships gunning for them. Forcing them all to travel at a slower speed increases the risk of all of humanity being once and for all exterminated. I would argue that placing the sensitivies of the Fleet above humanity's survival is more indicative of insanity than prioritizing life over "Those frakking toasters aren't setting foot on my ship, Godsdamnit!"

But hey, fuck those rebels, right? You show 'em where they stand!

Right below a power-hungry politico and rage-driven mutineers, apparently.

Yeah, I loved it when D'anna had a gun to Roslyn's head, and a nuke down the fleets throats wasn't any sort of betrayal ... oh wait!

Me, I loved that scene where the 3s joined the 2s, 6s and 8s in their rebellion and agreed to their objectives and methods and planned out how best to accomplish them. Instead of waking up from a time when both sides still absolutely hated each other and the only way to solve the issues was through force... oh wait.

Could it possibly be that Three - who tend to dominate the other Cylons in case you missed the third season and Moore's commentary about that line - wasn't one of the Rebels, was told by the rebels that she didn't need to do things that way and had to be forced to realize that putting guns to the heads of humans wouldn't get her what she wanted, whereas the Rebels had through negotiation and compromise?

And what are the other Cylons going to do about Three? They can't kill her - she's the only one who can identify the Final Five. They can't stuff her in a hole, since she could just refuse to cooperate and then they're back to where they started. And they are afraid of the humans, worried that she might actually be right. They're frightened children listening to their eldest sister because she's got to have a plan... right?

To reiterate: this doesn't excuse D'Anna's actions, but it would, I hope, put them in context. She's not one of the rebels. It's even pointed out several times that she's thinking of Cylons and humans as adversaries, not allies. The other Cylons don't know what else to do, so they're following the one person who seems confident that she's knows what's best.

Sound familiar? Like, say, someone who seized control of Galactica at gunpoint? But those are humans, so when they act violently and irrationaly out of anger and fear, its perfectly all right. When Cylons do it, it's unforgivable.

Where the fuck was anyone suggesting that this would have been a viable approach? In case you missed it - yet again - the mutiny is taking place NOT because Adama is upgrading the FTL, but because he's actively adding enemy representation to the government. Are you fucking insane to think that this would just fly with the human population? Especially after New Caprica?

Gosh, I must have missed that scene where Gaeta goes off about Cylon representation, instead of the fleet's right to refuse Cylon tech and keep "those frakking toasters off our ships". I'm sure he said it just after he started lambasting Adama for choosing to ram the upgrades down the civilians throats, right? Or maybe it was after he started talking about toasters and toaster-lovers calling the shots? Or that the tylium ship was just exercising their rights to protect themselves? No, no - Zarek must have said it, one of those times he was talking about the rights of the people to choose for themselves.

The 'Cylons on the Quorum' issue was brought up by Tyrol and all the ensuing actions are based on the fact that the Fleet didn't want the Cylons on their ships, or didn't want them to get anything for their tech transfers. Yes, Adama was high-handed in pushing the upgrades through, but he didn't agree to the Quorum representation; he gave his word to Tyrol that he'd consider it and the Rebels, through Tyrol, trust in that.

So, in short: yes, Adama/Roslin could have handled the situation far better. Yes, the Cylons have a lot to make up for. No, this doesn't excuse captain "It's time for a reckoning! To me, rapists and emotionally damaged men and women!" Gaeta. No, the Cylons shouldn't get fucked just because they're Cylons. It's not good for the fleet in the short-term or the long-term.

Of course, if your goal is to ostracize the large, well-armed warship sitting off your port bow with a crew who gave up everything for the dream of Earth, then by all means tell them make with the FTL drives right quick and be damn grateful for the oppurtunity. If your aim is try and cement an alliance where neither side has to keep looking over their shoulders and waiting for the knife, then those people of yours - whose whining existences may just be saved by that tech - who get butthurt will just have to shut up and deal. As Roslin said: "At least someone will be alive to condemn us."

[Traveller]

Thats a nice summation Blade. One of the problems RM set up right from the very start, was of course totally destroying the 12 colonies. This, in effect, paints the cyclons into a corner, and what we see(now), are the results of that. At this point in the series, it really does appear that the RTF would rather die than work with the Rebellion.(They may not see it that way, but in effect...) If that is in fact, the case, they should just open all the airlocks and be done with it. Right now, were being shown that humanity is more interested in settling old scores than anything as pragmatic as well....survival. That pilot that Starbuck shot ,crack about 'How Laird had it comeing', really I think drives home just how far gone these people are. Dont doubt for a second, a lot of the muntineers are simply on a revenge against there own ship-mates killing spree. Lead by a murderer(Zarek) and a nutcase(Gaeta) Why did Laird deserve to die, because he was doing his job? makeing the best of a bad situation, or trying to? Our main characters seem pre-disposed to always make the least optimal choices(well its more dramatic, edgey, dark adult,and all that) when they make choices with lead to even more conflict that they can ill-afford I guess, rather than ones that lead to some from of co-operation. From the preview its apparent Gaeta gets to have his show-trial. Un-like Zarek, he has a hard time simply murdering someone, he at least needs to go through the motions first.

Im sure you all caught the dis-apointment Zarek registers with Gaeta when he reports Adama is still alive. Again, isnt a bit of fridge-logic to attempt to execute Adama for 'Aiding the enemy' or whatever plot-line were going to see next week? But when anarchy rules I guess its doesnt really matter what they accuse Adama of, it just has to *sound* plausible.

As for Adamas not getting into the raptor, there are 2 good reasons why he didnt and 1 that has nothing to do with reason. Warship commanders are *extremely* reluctant to abandon there commands for whatever reason. Even worse, though Adama continuely shows little regard for how his actions are perceived by others, in this case, where is the raptor headed next?, you got it, the baseship. Talk about bad optics. I dont know that he took the 10 seconds to consider how that would appear, but I would like think he did. Taken together, he really didnt have any choice but to remain on board.

Secondly, I'm sure he knows there loyalists still fighting and if there was any chance he could get through to them and rally them to his side, he would have to try. Even if the odds of that happening stink.

Lastly, of course, we can tell from the pre-view that he gets captured, and thats just well....more dramatic, dark, edgy, etc..etc and no doubt will set up yet another plot arc involveing, lets guess, humans behaveing very badly(something they excell at in nBSG).

Im sure there will lots to talk about next week as well

[Uraniun235]

So what is your point then?

My point is that 'OMG ppl are the dieing and humanitz is skrewed!!!SHIFT+1' is a fucking pathetic non-argument, especially when you consider the fleet population, what is realistically needed as the bear minimum for successful re-population and how the death toll has not even reached the 100's yet.

Yeah because all we need are enough breeding pairs and everything's hunky-dory, right? I mean it's not like they'd want to even attempt to try to maintain any of the technical knowledge or expertise they have left once they land on whatever planet they happen to find, and certainly the Galactica will never again be troubled by Cavil's Basestars.

Fucking come on, I cannot believe that you think the only possible issue is sufficient genetic diversity.

[Skylon]

A question: Why was Adama's stand even necessary? They could all have gone on the Raptor.

Adama wouldn't leave his ship. It'd be out of character for him let himself get run off by a bunch of mutineers. Tigh says to him "you could have left" to which Adama replies "I couldn't have lived with it." or something like that.

[Gigaliel]

Is every single Cylon ever responsible for the attack on the Colonies? One of the Sixes on Rebellion was nothing more than technician working to keep the humans' water treatment plant functioning and she was brutally killed because, hey, she's a Cylon and therefore, absolutely positively had to be directly responsible for everything that happened to humanity. Also, we'll just say that Natalie was one of the models responsible for genocide instead of attacking military targets and that'll make it true. It's a war crime to exterminate civilians, no doubt. Is it a war crime to simply serve the same agency and attack military targets? Apparently!

Don't be dense; every single Cylon is responsible. Their government was based on the principle of one model being able to vote in an identical manner to another model. Considering they're of artificial manufacture, this doesn't strike me as too crazy. This assumption wasn't violated until Boomer, after decades of it working perfectly.

Specifically, it was working fine when the plan to exterminate humanity was hatched. Given the Cylon's frequent use of their brand of democracy, I'm going to say they voted on this plan. There were no references to dissent and every Cylon worked diligently on Plan "Kill All Humans" for the decades between the end of the first war and the mass nuking.

So, yes, every Cylon is or was a genocidal maniac.

Gosh, I must have missed that scene where Gaeta goes off about Cylon representation, instead of the fleet's right to refuse Cylon tech and keep "those frakking toasters off our ships".

Pretty sure he did in the scene it was mentioned. Something along the lines of "You can't be serious." And isn't the whole fucking issue the part where Cylon's have to install it themselves? Yes let's give the Cylon's access to our spaceships, can't see any reason to be suspicious.

Of course, if your goal is to ostracize the large, well-armed warship sitting off your port bow with a crew who gave up everything for the dream of Earth, then by all means tell them make with the FTL drives right quick and be damn grateful for the oppurtunity. If your aim is try and cement an alliance where neither side has to keep looking over their shoulders and waiting for the knife, then those people of yours - whose whining existences may just be saved by that tech - who get butthurt will just have to shut up and deal. As Roslin said: "At least someone will be alive to condemn us."

"Cementing an alliance" implies it is two-sided. Adama's plan was to shove the upgrades down the Colonial Fleet's throat with total disregard for civil authority. This alliance would be a Cylon-Military dictatorship and an ignored population.

Perhaps they might even rebel to express their annoyance! Oh wait that's what they're doing.

The Cylon's were overreaching with their demands. At best they could send an observer to voice their concerns at the Quorum. But a vote and a seat at the table? That's going a bit too far at this point.

Appendum: How much need is there for these drives? The fleet lasted a long time without the damn things. Sure, they would help, but I don't remember any massive strategic changes since the Cylon's have been chasing them the whole show. I might be forgetting something.

[Anguirus]

Err no. The Hub never allowed them to reproduce, it in fact - as now seen in show - prohibited them from doing that. And why is the Hub such a big loss? It's a piece of hardware that can be reproduced, all it did was give Cavil pause. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

1) Caprica got preggers before the Hub was destroyed, so your statement has no apparent basis.
2) If you pay even the slightest bit of attention to the dialogue, the rebel Cylons absolutely believe that their race is now mortal, forever. Even if it isn't true, they believe it to be true, and so they have murdered thousands of Cylons...including their own models...outright, and doomed however many millions of Cylons there are to apparent death, unless they can all reproduce like Tigh and Caprica-Six. However, this feat has happened once, and the rebel Cylons didn't know about it when they attacked the Hub.

Appendum: How much need is there for these drives? The fleet lasted a long time without the damn things. Sure, they would help, but I don't remember any massive strategic changes since the Cylon's have been chasing them the whole show. I might be forgetting something.

They don't have a destination, nor do they have a source of food, water, or fuel at this time. They need to find a planet or they all die slowly. FTL range is absolutely critical. I'm not sure Joe Schmo in the fleet understands this as well as Adama & Co, though...they have really dropped the ball in terms of talking to the crew and the fleet.

[His Divine Shadow]

I dunno from past episodes it seems the fleet has all they need in terms of infrastructure to keep going as long as they can find tillium to mine and other resources to replenish. Water should be the most common and easy to find.

I wonder how much they could build if they wanted to? Could they in time build more space ships or space industry?

[Sarevok]

I dunno from past episodes it seems the fleet has all they need in terms of infrastructure to keep going as long as they can find tillium to mine and other resources to replenish. Water should be the most common and easy to find.

I wonder how much they could build if they wanted to? Could they in time build more space ships or space industry?

This is true. Starting around mid season 2 they were churning out new fighters, there were bars and parties on ships like Cloud Nine, people were living like they were on vacation on a cruise ship. It seemed like a comfortable nomadic civilization on the move instead of the feeling of hopelessness and invisible doom coming any moment now. Not that season one kept it up but initially there was a feel for people being stranded in deep space with no resupply, repair or hope of return.

But season 4.5 seem to be a total 180 turn taking the show back to it's good side. I vented my feelings on what went wrong with Galactica in an earlier post in the season opener thread. But I seem to be wrong now. They flushed the religious supernatural bullshit down the toilet, the fleet is in disrepair, morale is at all time low and they are racing the clock to find a homeworld before their ships fail leaving them to die in space. It seems the deus machina that kept the fleet going previously has malfunctioned. I sure hope it stays that way for rest of the final season because last two episodes have immensely raised hopes for an awesome final chapter in the Galactica saga.

[Teebs]

I dunno from past episodes it seems the fleet has all they need in terms of infrastructure to keep going as long as they can find tillium to mine and other resources to replenish. Water should be the most common and easy to find.

I wonder how much they could build if they wanted to? Could they in time build more space ships or space industry?

I was under the impression that their ships are gradually falling apart. Sure they can keep themselves supplied with fuel and water (assuming they keep getting lucky) but irreplaceable parts are failing too and eventually too many will fail.

[His Divine Shadow]

But season 4.5 seem to be a total 180 turn taking the show back to it's good side. I vented my feelings on what went wrong with Galactica in an earlier post in the season opener thread. But I seem to be wrong now. They flushed the religious supernatural bullshit down the toilet, the fleet is in disrepair, morale is at all time low and they are racing the clock to find a homeworld before their ships fail leaving them to die in space. It seems the deus machina that kept the fleet going previously has malfunctioned. I sure hope it stays that way for rest of the final season because last two episodes have immensely raised hopes for an awesome final chapter in the Galactica saga.

The show still needs to explain what happened to Starbuck and where her shiny new viper came from. That seems to suggest to me a third party out there still, so possibly we'll see Ellen again.

And what of the opera house "prophecies" and all that from S1? I don't think they'll just flush it down the toilet like that, I'm still expecting to see their dying leader find that new land before wasting away and so forth. The show has had so many astronomically weird flukes and prophecies and whatnot come true that these things just need to be explained somehow.

Tie together all the bloody loose strings and don't become another Lost, please.

[Imperial Overlord]

On the issue of marines, we don't know if the majority are with Gaeta. We've seen a few with him and them seizing the arms locker and arming other members of the crew. At the moment they have the advantage over the loyalists just by having some idea of what the frak is going on.

As for the population issue, the problem isn't genetic diversity. The issue is the amount of skilled labor and the diversity of skills needed to keep an nomadic interstellar fleet operational. Laird, as Maya mentioned, was an aerospace engineer. He might have been the only surviving human with his skillset. A large population of trained and educated personnel are essential to the survival of the human race in its present form.

As for the relationship with the renegade Cylons, when both sides have a history of treating each other like shit and survival may depend on both sides working together there is going to be give and take in the relationship. The genocide was worse than the slavery, but that doesn't make the Colonials stainless heroes. The only way forward is cooperative and giving the commanders of a nuclear armed capital ship a forum to express their grievances and make their opinions known within your government is far better than having them resentful, suspicious, and outside of it.

[Bladed_Crescent]

Don't be dense; every single Cylon is responsible. Their government was based on the principle of one model being able to vote in an identical manner to another model. Considering they're of artificial manufacture, this doesn't strike me as too crazy. This assumption wasn't violated until Boomer, after decades of it working perfectly.

Specifically, it was working fine when the plan to exterminate humanity was hatched. Given the Cylon's frequent use of their brand of democracy, I'm going to say they voted on this plan. There were no references to dissent and every Cylon worked diligently on Plan "Kill All Humans" for the decades between the end of the first war and the mass nuking.

So, yes, every Cylon is or was a genocidal maniac.

You've also noted that they vote by majority; so if four models think going 'nukey nukey' is good and three don't, well. Note: this is not saying that there was dissent in the Cylon ranks before the campaign, only that we don't know, since once they make a decision, Cylons tend to jump in with both feet.

Secondly, as in the example of New Caprica, individuals can vehemently disagree with their model's decision (Boomer and Caprica), but the model as a whole still has the final vote. I will conceed, however, that the first major divisions of personality occurred after the Colonial genocide, so it's probably not to likely that such division occurred. Only that, given past information, it cannot be ruled out altogether.

Thirdly, the 'you voted for X, therefore you are personally responsible for everything that happens due to X', is weak reasoning. Is every American who voted for George Bush personally and directly responsible for the fuckups of that administration, or did they just make a bad decision or rely on improper information in making it? Human thinking doesn't even work that way; on a species that has a completely different approach to, well, everything and for all intents and purposes is an alien race whose approach to pretty much everything is so fundamentally different from ours, it makes it even more problematic.

Argh - again I'm in the position of having to defend the Cylons and I don't really want to be. Fact: the Cylons were enslaved by the Colonials. Fact: the Cylons are afraid of the humans finishing what they tried to do and wiping them out. Fact: the Colonial military had violated Cylon territory; (Word of Moore says it wasn't the triggering event, but it doesn't change the fact that the Colonies were entering the territory of a paranoid race that believes humanity wants to kill them all). Also fact: the Cylons were undergoing their military preparation regardless, but they were doing so because they believed that if they didn't, at some point the humans would come after them again.

No, none of this excuses genocide.

To once again reiterate: I am not saying that any of the rebels, as a group or in particular, are suddenly absolved of their sins or were in no way the 'bad' Cylons (Gaeta's Eight is proof enough of that). This is just to say that Cylon =/= full-on genocidal robot. Some may have voted because they absolutely wanted all humans to die (Cavil?). Some may have voted because it was God's Will (Leoben?). Some may have voted because they believed that if they didn't, it would be them facing extinction (D'Anna?). Some may have disagreed, but the model vote ruled the day. We have no way of knowing and to act as if every single Cylon's vote was specifically for unremitting, ethusiastic support for genocide is disingenuous.

Pretty sure he did in the scene it was mentioned. Something along the lines of "You can't be serious."

If so, I missed that part and I do conceed the point; in my defence, it got lost amidst the rest of Gaeta's braying about ships's rights, Adama's high-handedness and his searching for an outlet for his rage. It's worth pointing out that Gaeta's jibber-jabber about Cylons is a smokescreen; remember when he confronted Starbuck? He didn't go off on a political tirade - his entire rant can be boiled down to "You Cylon-lovers have to pay for what you've done and I'm going to be the one to do it." It was also a recruitment speech. Gaeta doesn't give a flying frak about the jump drives or ships' rights as long as he gets to wave his dick at the Cylons. If the rebels were asking for, oh, integrated crews or for the fleet to help them manufacture some vital widgets that they can't make, would things have turned out any differently? No. He wants to hurt the Cylons and anyone or everyone who's even remotely associated with them.

Remember the traitor Marines on the bridge, who tried to kill everyone there, without waiting? That doesn't seem like the actions of those participating in a political coup for the good of humanity; rather an attempt at slaughtering everyone who you don't like.

All those bodies in Galactica's corridors... are all of them Cylon sympathizers? No, Gaeta didn't order the mass slaughter. But he's in command of the mutineers. He knew the kind of people he was recruiting; he deliberately courted them. "Sunshine Boy", that Marine who would have beaten Anders to death if he hadn't been restrained, Connor, Seelix... People who are just as angry as him and don't care what they're doing as long as they get to make those frakking toasters - or the next best thing - pay. It doesn't matter what the toasters or doing, what they're trying to do.

All that matters is hurting them because they can.

And isn't the whole fucking issue the part where Cylon's have to install it themselves? Yes let's give the Cylon's access to our spaceships, can't see any reason to be suspicious.

The Cylons have to do it themselves; Tyrol clearly points this out. The humans don't have the technological capacity or the technical know-how to do it. And since he's the most experienced engineer on fleet - now that Laird got his skull crushed in for the crime of being in the way - it stands to reason that he'd have some idea if they were bullshitting him or not.

"Cementing an alliance" implies it is two-sided. Adama's plan was to shove the upgrades down the Colonial Fleet's throat with total disregard for civil authority. This alliance would be a Cylon-Military dictatorship and an ignored population.

Once again: I have not argued that Adama's approach was not high-handed or the wrong course to take. I am, however, arguing that the upgrades - which improve the fleet's chances of survival - are of more import then the feelings of the people.

Perhaps they might even rebel to express their annoyance! Oh wait that's what they're doing.

Tip: "expressing annoyance" =/= "gunning down everyone in your way, planning to rape someone who has done you no wrong, planning to carry out summary executions". Expressing annoyance = work stoppages, refusal to accept hails, demands for accountability, not "Open fire!"

The Cylon's were overreaching with their demands. At best they could send an observer to voice their concerns at the Quorum. But a vote and a seat at the table? That's going a bit too far at this point.

This brings us back to the very problem I outlined in my first post: an "observer" gives them absolutely nothing. No assurances, no promises. Once they've handed over their drive technology, taught the humans how to use it... where are they now? Sitting on the baseship, purposefully isolated and only called up to when the fleet wants something from them. This is not a good thing. As I have said before and probably will again, the Cylons biggest hang-up is humanity enslaving them. Saying "until we decide the slate is clean, you're going to do what we tell and thank us for it!" is precisely the wrong chord to play.

Tactically, Rebellion is worth even more consideration, because it adds to the fleet's defensive and offensive capabilities. It supplies a pool of engineers, soldiers and pilots, none of which the human fleet has in any great number. So practically - yes. Giving the rebels some consideration is absolutely the right thing to do because they can do more for your survival as willing, eager participants than suspicious, isolated 'toasters' who know that your people can kill them for no reason at all and never have to answer for it. Because if you want to survive, making sure the warship full of nuclear warheads and killing machines is also crewed by individuals who are afraid and suspicious of you is exactly the wrong call to make.

If you have people whose knickers are in a twist about it: fuck them. It's the lives of your entire species hanging in the balance. To clarify: see what you can do to allay their fears and suspicions instead of ramming your agenda down their throats, but at the end of the day, you need allies, not distrustful (and well-armed) second-class citizens.

Appendum: How much need is there for these drives? The fleet lasted a long time without the damn things. Sure, they would help, but I don't remember any massive strategic changes since the Cylon's have been chasing them the whole show. I might be forgetting something.

Yes, they lasted a while. With the Cylons constantly nipping at their heels. 33. Kobol's Last Gleaming, Resurection Ship, Captain's Hand... it goes on. These new drives give them a chance to open up some distance between them and Cavil, which as far as the survival of humanity goes, is A Good Thing.

[tezunegari]

I dunno from past episodes it seems the fleet has all they need in terms of infrastructure to keep going as long as they can find tillium to mine and other resources to replenish. Water should be the most common and easy to find.

I wonder how much they could build if they wanted to? Could they in time build more space ships or space industry?

This is true. Starting around mid season 2 they were churning out new fighters, there were bars and parties on ships like Cloud Nine, people were living like they were on vacation on a cruise ship. It seemed like a comfortable nomadic civilization on the move instead of the feeling of hopelessness and invisible doom coming any moment now. Not that season one kept it up but initially there was a feel for people being stranded in deep space with no resupply, repair or hope of return.

The ability to build vipers was part of the Pegasus, a mercury class battlestar. But since they lost that ship... (instead of sacrificing the rust bucket and renaming the Pegasus into Galactica) that ability is lost again. And they had adapted to the nomadic life, that is until baltar came with the great idea to colonies a barely life sustaining planet - which ended in the loss of around 1000 people and a few civilian ships.
Also the cloud nine was vaped by Gina... one less luxury liner with artificial planet feeling for shore leave.

In regard of the fall of morale since New Caprica it could be assumed that they lost a lot of ressources on that planet. The sutff they made the huts out. The trucks and cars. Food supplies, seeds and everything left for the cylons to nuke.

[charlemagne]

Just finished watching, and frak this was an awesome episode.

Most points I thought of bringing up have already been adressed, but I gotta express once again how I really don't get the hostility against the Final Four. Especially Lee was annoying in blaming Tigh for genocide.

Also, it was good to finally see Starbuck do something again, although I wasn't too happy about her being that trigger-happy. The rescue of Lee was a awesome, but she kinda went into murder rage after that.

[Crown]

<snip irrelevant bullshit preamble>

I don't believe I said otherwise. However, if that population refuses to accept a benefit that will - at a minumum - triple their chances of surviving, what else is there? I posit that it's far more bizarre to accept the wishes of the populace when those wishes significantly increase the chance of them - and you - dying of hunger and thirst in the vastness of space, or being reduced to radioactive shards of armour and charred gobbets of flesh.

Colourful. The only real advantage of the Cylon FTL is their ability to squeeze more AU out of an ounce of fuel. Sol is more than capable of restocking the fleets water supply and then some, and since their food is algae based proteins it also takes care of their food supply.

The Quorum and the Fleet refused to accept these upgrades. Without them, the Cylons that are still set on 'crush-kill-destroy' will, sooner or later find the fleet. After all, any lead the Fleet managed to eke out by jumping straight to Earth will be steadily eaten away as the warships with more than triple their range expand their search to find them.

Okay, this is actually an important point, and it does deserve some consideration; for the record I do not believe for one second Cavil won't find them eventually, because I expect from a story telling perspective this is necessary to happen in order to create closure for the story. However this is not suspension of disbelief, and it is a cop out.

From an in-universe perspective; it is absolutely ridiculous to believe that Cavil will find them. Space is beyond huge, and despite this we have canonical proof that the only way the Cylon's were able to find the fleet was either due to onboard spies, or luck. New Caprica shows us this - as bad as an idea it would have been to settle there, it quite ironically would have worked fine if suicidal psycho bot hadn't detonated the Nuke in her funeral pyre (taking out more of humanity as well, gotta love those harmless misunderstood toasters eh?). Story telling favours your argument (and hell I agree with it), in-universe analysis leads us to believe that this is not the case unless there's someone on the inside willing to betray them to Cavil.

Wanna take bets on who that could be?

Convoy speed fucks the humans more than the Cylons.

No, since they all move at the same it speed it fucks them evenly. Are you still to dense to realise that the Rebels aren't going anywhere on their own?

So, what "deal" would you suggest striking, that gives the Cylons absolutely nothing of any real value and yet, doesn't make them "whipping boys"? You've said that your approach is to tell them to hand over the tech and sit and rotate. Appealing to their sense of self-interest is all well and good in theory. In practice, they're crippled one ship surrounded by people who hate them and can kill them with no repercussions whatsoever. That sounds like some good self-interest to me!

Your completely and utterly incapable of thought aren't you? Do you even lack the mental comprehension to realise that even if the Colonials grew a vertebrae and forced the Rebels to upgrade the fleets FTL without giving in to their demands for political representation in a nation they were responsible in nearly wiping out, that the Colonials couldn't just fly away laughing?

Tyrol flat out said he had no idea how their FTL worked, nevermind installing the fucking things. Who do you think would be maintaining them? Troubleshooting them? The Colonials?

Jesus H Christ, even without ceding political recognition to the Rebels, the entire fate of humanity rests on that they never go on strike!

<snip the mindless ramblings of an incoherent idiot>

So, I ask you, genuinely curious: what else can Adama offer to the Cylons? "Nothing" is a valid answer, of course. But then it comes back to "give us what we want and maybe we'll possibily consider doing something for you at some undetermined date".

I fail to see why in ANY of this, the Colonials should be the gracious and meek people in this relationship. See my rape analogy in an earlier post, it boggles the mind how you morons can actually argue with conviction that the onus is somehow on the Colonials to be making concessions in this exchange.

Right now Cylons can even be killed with impunity and their murderers get a mulligan for it. That is an excellent way to encourage cooperation between two warships (who I may remind you, are in the middle of a fleet of civilians) consisting of people who hate and fear each other. Let one side be viewed as completely disposable.

Oh give me a break, Felix witnessed with his own eyes, what a Toaster will do to ensure it's own survival. Stop pretending or even trying to paint the Rebels as some kind of meek, helpless victims here.

Yes, the Cylons participated in a brutal genocide. No, that shouldn't be forgotten or even forgiven. But the Rebels have done a lot already: they led humanity to Earth (just because it's a shithole know doesn't mean anything; both sides thought it would be a paradise).

Funny, could have sworn it was Crazybuck that led them to Earth, but what the fuck do I know, I just have eyes to watch what the pretty pictures on the screen tell me.

They destroyed the means of Cylon resurrection and even if a new Hub can be built, have cut themselves off from it in order to stay with the humans. They gave the location of the Hub freely when all they had was one man's word that he wouldn't take it and fuck them.

They did it because they wouldn't, and couldn't go back. The Hub was in Cavil's control, the only future for them even if they died would to be boxed by Cavil ... like I said before; whoop-dee-fucking-doo! FFS, Six even told the Quorom that they wanted the Hub destroyed since they felt that the more they felt their own mortality, the closer they felt to God. Wanna try and revise history any more there champ?

They cancelled their plans to take hostages, believing that they needed to be the first to change. And now, all they want is the right not be tossed aside like garbage.

Yeah, loved how they did that, how did it work out again ... ? Oh yeah, they weren't to 'blame', we'll get to that later.

Is every single Cylon ever responsible for the attack on the Colonies?

Yes.

One of the Sixes on Rebellion was nothing more than technician working to keep the humans' water treatment plant functioning and she was brutally killed because, hey, she's a Cylon and therefore, absolutely positively had to be directly responsible for everything that happened to humanity.

And Boomer was a bonafide war hero who fought gallantly in defending the rag tag human fleet, and even succeeded in leading the first mission that resulted in the destruction of an enemy Basestar ... and then she plugged Adama full of bullets. Do you see where I'm going with this? Oh, and the irony of the whole thing was that when she woke up again, guess what, she's a BONAFIDE WAR HERO who played a pivotal role in their successful nuclear holocaust. Ain't life just a bitch that way?

To expand: Natalie could have been responsible for war crimes. That's very possible. Or she could have been like Gina, a soldier with a strictly military mission. No, sorry - I forgot that every Cylon ever is personally, utterly and completely responsible for every evil deed of the entire race. It just makes it a lot easier to say they are, doesn't it?

I hate having to come across as some kind of Cylon apologist, but when the opposing argument is similar to: Arghl bargl rassa frass genocidal robtos! You expect to help us and get something out of it! You have to know your place! Rant froth rail curse foam, it makes it hard not to seem like one.

Oh for fucks sake, pull yourself out man. There is not one IOTA of a shred of a possibility of a chance that every skinjob was not culpable in the nuclear holocaust on mankind. The Centurions and Raider's we'll give a pass due their diminished capacity, but the entire third season shows us not one model was against 'their plan'.

Also: fucking yes is the human fleet is a higher priority for Cavil. They have thousands of people, dozens of ships and a rudimentary industry... plus they can't run as far or fast as a baseship. The rebels have the crippled Rebellion and no access to a resurrection network. Do you not see the difference here? The humans, if allowed to live, can build and breed back into a new army. The Rebels... can't. All they have is that one ship, so if comes to a choice between the fleet and Rebellion, which is the more logical target?

The Rebels are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more of a threat to Cavil than a race of people that are running for their lives. People who have no industry, who cannot be expected to make an meaningful strikes against him or his assets for generations to come, even if they knew where these assets were, which they don't. But hey, who does? Starts with an 'R' and ends with 'ebles'.

<snip repetitive grandstanding and chest thumping mockery>

Me, I loved that scene where the 3s joined the 2s, 6s and 8s in their rebellion and agreed to their objectives and methods and planned out how best to accomplish them. Instead of waking up from a time when both sides still absolutely hated each other and the only way to solve the issues was through force... oh wait.

Minor nitpick just for the 'lolz' ... D'anna is a '3';

Could it possibly be that Three - who tend to dominate the other Cylons in case you missed the third season and Moore's commentary about that line - wasn't one of the Rebels ...

ELLE OH ELLE!

...was told by the rebels that she didn't need to do things that way and had to be forced to realize that putting guns to the heads of humans wouldn't get her what she wanted, whereas the Rebels had through negotiation and compromise?

And what are the other Cylons going to do about Three? They can't kill her - she's the only one who can identify the Final Five. They can't stuff her in a hole, since she could just refuse to cooperate and then they're back to where they started. And they are afraid of the humans, worried that she might actually be right. They're frightened children listening to their eldest sister because she's got to have a plan... right?

To reiterate: this doesn't excuse D'Anna's actions, but it would, I hope, put them in context. She's not one of the rebels. It's even pointed out several times that she's thinking of Cylons and humans as adversaries, not allies. The other Cylons don't know what else to do, so they're following the one person who seems confident that she's knows what's best.

Sound familiar? Like, say, someone who seized control of Galactica at gunpoint? But those are humans, so when they act violently and irrationaly out of anger and fear, its perfectly all right. When Cylons do it, it's unforgivable.

Or an eight methodically killing off human survivors on a stranded Raptor in order to improve her chances of survival? AHHH-ouch that's gotta hurt for your retarded 'the 2's, 6's and 8's are fine, it's just the 3's!!!!!!SHIFT+1!!!' retarded smokescreen eh? Or not, you could just throw up another wall of ignorance, stick your fingers in your ears, and spew even more false examples to help your cause.

Your inability to grasp the obvious is beyond my ability to comprehend. The only power D'anna had over the other Rebels, was the power they allowed to her to have. She had no way to force her way over their objections (were any aired by the way, kinda been a while since I've seen that ep), unless they were willing to let her.

Gosh, I must have missed that scene where Gaeta goes off about Cylon representation,

Then get your eyes checked, it was right there.

instead of the fleet's right to refuse Cylon tech and keep "those frakking toasters off our ships". I'm sure he said it just after he started lambasting Adama for choosing to ram the upgrades down the civilians throats, right? Or maybe it was after he started talking about toasters and toaster-lovers calling the shots? Or that the tylium ship was just exercising their rights to protect themselves? No, no - Zarek must have said it, one of those times he was talking about the rights of the people to choose for themselves.

Gaeta balked at the 'catch' he prompted out of Tyrol moron. This is established. His further concerns were at Adama willfully and wantonly running rough shod over humanity, and essentially putting all of humanities asses in the Rebels hands by handing them the keys to the ignition of their FTL. Are you so fucking lost that you couldn't possibly see how this is a bad thing?

The 'Cylons on the Quorum' issue was brought up by Tyrol and all the ensuing actions are based on the fact that the Fleet didn't want the Cylons on their ships, or didn't want them to get anything for their tech transfers. Yes, Adama was high-handed in pushing the upgrades through, but he didn't agree to the Quorum representation; he gave his word to Tyrol that he'd consider it and the Rebels, through Tyrol, trust in that.

Trust in what? It was Gaeta who made Tyrol spill the catch 22. We've seen nothing on screen to tell us of Adama altering the agreement.

So, in short: yes, Adama/Roslin could have handled the situation far better. Yes, the Cylons have a lot to make up for. No, this doesn't excuse captain "It's time for a reckoning! To me, rapists and emotionally damaged men and women!" Gaeta. No, the Cylons shouldn't get fucked just because they're Cylons. It's not good for the fleet in the short-term or the long-term.

So you have no problem that the fate of humanity should rest in the good intentions of genocidal, nuke happy, double crossing robots. Ohhhhhh, k. Thanks for sharing.

Of course, if your goal is to ostracize the large, well-armed warship sitting off your port bow with a crew who gave up everything for the dream of Earth, then by all means tell them make with the FTL drives right quick and be damn grateful for the oppurtunity.

False premise; they gave up NOTHING to get to Earth. At least nothing to the Colonials. The Hub, wasn't there's to give up anymore. Reason tells us this, the show flat out shows us this, and somehow it still eludes you.

If your aim is try and cement an alliance where neither side has to keep looking over their shoulders and waiting for the knife, then those people of yours - whose whining existences may just be saved by that tech - who get butthurt will just have to shut up and deal. As Roslin said: "At least someone will be alive to condemn us."

Roslyn also said; 'throw that thing out of an airlock'. Kinda thought she made more sense then. Also please explain how entrusting the fate of the entire human race to genocidal robots is a smart thing?

[Crown]

As for the population issue, the problem isn't genetic diversity. The issue is the amount of skilled labor and the diversity of skills needed to keep an nomadic interstellar fleet operational. Laird, as Maya mentioned, was an aerospace engineer. He might have been the only surviving human with his skillset. A large population of trained and educated personnel are essential to the survival of the human race in its present form.

That's actually a point I wouldn't argue against, it also happens to be a point that no one I've responded to brought up.