Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

[Vympel]

Just a note, in the movie, a Super Battle Droid grabbed a clonetrooper, lifted him up, and blasted him such that it's blaster bolt penetrated clean through and flew out the other side.

A similar thing happened in Rookies when Rex shot the Commando Droid pretending to be a Clone (i.e. the blast penetrated the helmet clean and burned a hole into its head).

Also in the movie, Rex shoots an SBD in the back with his pistols and the blasts penetrate clean through and out the other side.

And of course blaster bolts penetrated Ki-Adi-Mundi clean through in RotS, too.

We also see blaster bolts easily penetrating the Lurmen "pod" housing in the last episode.

Methinks the SBDs didn't bother to dial up their guns, because they had an SBD with a rocket launcher who took care of it in one shot.

[Connor MacLeod]

True. I had forgotten about the rocket launcher, so I suppose that means the crates weren't carrying volatileS (or that those weren't at least.) On the other hand, that doesn't mean that blasting away at high power would be safe either, since there's lots of things in the hangar that could still be volatile (the rockets IIRC were guided, so the possibility of a miss would be far less.)

[Vympel]

Yeah, those rockets (look just like miniature proton torpedoes) have the ridiculously maneuverable guidance system inherent in a lot of Star Wars guided rockets - the same type chased Jar Jar around under water in Bombad Jedi.

[PainRack]

and you can tell me what is in those crates in the hangar? There's bound to be alot of volatile shit lying around, especially since they weren't anticipating a boarding, so you wouldn't want to just blast away widlly at full power. And even if the crates are somehow harmless, there's always the possibility of a stray hit hitting something ELSE potentially volatile. In case you forgot, the SBDs were a diversion to let Ventress get onboard and rescue Gunray. Blowing up the hangar (or possibly destrtoying the ship) was not part of the plan. and I doubt Ventress would want to have had the hangar blown up on her either, if it comes to that.

Let's assume you're right for this scenario.
What about the previous episodes, in which Anakin and the clonetroopers were hiding behind the crates, facing fire from the spider tanks, SBDs and droid troopers? Specifically, the mission where the Jedi were sent to destroy R2D2 and the station, and Anakin decided to rescue him instead?

Given the sheer amount of suppression fire, there is no reason to believe that any of your reasons apply at all. And in this episode, we specifically see blaster shots hit the crates in question and not penetrating.

Given other examples of blaster firepower, one seriously have to consider the in canon issue of whether the droid army designers designed stupidity into the droids.

[VT-16]

Anyone checked out the latest webcomic on the official site? I have to say it was the best installment yet (it shows what happens to the clones that go missing in the upcoming episode). Pretty disturbing and sad. I hope the episode manages something similar. Or any tug at the heartstrings really, given the villain is said to be a representation of the Rwanda/Yugoslavia/Darfur-type ethnic cleansers.

[Connor MacLeod]

and you can tell me what is in those crates in the hangar? There's bound to be alot of volatile shit lying around, especially since they weren't anticipating a boarding, so you wouldn't want to just blast away widlly at full power. And even if the crates are somehow harmless, there's always the possibility of a stray hit hitting something ELSE potentially volatile. In case you forgot, the SBDs were a diversion to let Ventress get onboard and rescue Gunray. Blowing up the hangar (or possibly destrtoying the ship) was not part of the plan. and I doubt Ventress would want to have had the hangar blown up on her either, if it comes to that.

Let's assume you're right for this scenario.
What about the previous episodes, in which Anakin and the clonetroopers were hiding behind the crates, facing fire from the spider tanks, SBDs and droid troopers? Specifically, the mission where the Jedi were sent to destroy R2D2 and the station, and Anakin decided to rescue him instead?

Given the sheer amount of suppression fire, there is no reason to believe that any of your reasons apply at all. And in this episode, we specifically see blaster shots hit the crates in question and not penetrating.

You mean episode 7 right? That's the one where TK's a fuel cell just lying out in the open and it gets blasted by one of the ARCs pistols (Rex I think) and explodes violently, right?

[PainRack]

You mean episode 7 right? That's the one where TK's a fuel cell just lying out in the open and it gets blasted by one of the ARCs pistols (Rex I think) and explodes violently, right?

Ahem. And that was the same episode where the droids and clonetroopers were already throwing out a hail of fire, and loads of blasters were already blasting away at said crates.

So, if the droids were smart enough not to increase their firepower so as not to hit stray violatile targets, they were not smart enough to aim precisely enough NOT to hit stray violatile targets.

[Knife]

Meh, so now I'm trying to watch this show every week. This week was...well weak. I like the enclosed speeder bikes though.

[VT-16]

I like the death toll but not the small scale of the war. And the Chairman's comment about seeing "100 planets rise and fall through force of arms". Nice to hear of more pre-CW wars in the galaxy without it all being connected to Naboo.

[Vympel]

Looks like next week we're returning to Christophsis. Interesting.

[VT-16]

It says it's a prequel to the movie on the Episode Guide. I guess this episode might have been pre-Ahsoka, too. Might be going back and forth between different times.

[tezunegari]

The preview for next episode was interesting. Spoiler

A clone soldier betraying the republic and his commanders... I can't wait for the reason that soldier had to turn traitor. Maybe we get a closer look at the conditioning of the clone soldiers.

[PainRack]

I like the death toll but not the small scale of the war. And the Chairman's comment about seeing "100 planets rise and fall through force of arms". Nice to hear of more pre-CW wars in the galaxy without it all being connected to Naboo.

Really? Nice...........

[VT-16]

It's pretty cool, for a throwaway reference:

I have led our people since before you were born. I've seen a hundred planets rise and fall through force of arms. If it's not the Separatists out there, then it is an aggressive and malevolent enemy nonetheless, and I will not let whoever it is jeopardize the security of the people of Pantora.

Now, the articles state that Pantora was influential, even though we've never heard of the moon before, but it's still noteworthy regardless of whether it's in the Republic outback or elsewhere. The Jedi had their work cut out for them even before the CW.

[Thanas]

It also seems that clonetrooper armour is not very resistant to spears, unlike Stormtrooper armour.

[VT-16]

Meh, the Stormtroopers were being pierced by the Amanin in the To The Last Man comic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Meh, the Stormtroopers were being pierced by the Amanin in the To The Last Man comic.

as I recall it was implied those spears may have been very odd. For one thing they didn't splinter or fracture at all when piercing. whatever they were made of they had unusual properties.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ahem. And that was the same episode where the droids and clonetroopers were already throwing out a hail of fire, and loads of blasters were already blasting away at said crates.

Yes, but as I admitted, the crates may not neccesarily be volatile (I did notice in rewatching the episode that SBD blasts seeme dto be knocking some of the crates around) But that doesn't mean that because the crates may not be volatiel that no other volatile objects exist (obviously not.)

So, if the droids were smart enough not to increase their firepower so as not to hit stray violatile targets, they were not smart enough to aim precisely enough NOT to hit stray violatile targets.

And yet they can't hit the clones (or the clones hit the droids) despite teh close ranges? Come on. Besides which, even ignoring the accuracy bit, that doesn't guarantee they WON'T hit things. Ricochets might happen, for eample. And didn't we also see tons of shoots shooting PAST the clones? They can't control every single bolt now, can they? Or are we going to assume that every bolt was somehow self-guided?

[Serafina]

Now, the articles state that Pantora was influential, even though we've never heard of the moon before, but it's still noteworthy regardless of whether it's in the Republic outback or elsewhere. The Jedi had their work cut out for them even before the CW.

Well, if you have millions of worlds, there will be lot of "influential" ones.
Do they have a powerfull military?
Lots of allies in the senate?
A good economy?
Lots of resources?

I guess they are simply the most "powerfull" (in whatever way) or trusted world in this region of space, and thus represent a couple of worlds. Of course, this would go something like "the representative of the free, independed alliance of the carmellia sector..." and not "the senator of pantora". But then again, Naboo propably had a similar status (representing lots of worlds, propably because of their peacefull, morally nature).

[VT-16]

Naboo represents the Chommell sector for a time, but then Greejatus of Chommell Minor gets the job, after Palpatine but before Padme.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There are a lot of contradictions in the described governmental systems of the Galactic Republic, Galactic Empire, New Republic, and so on. For instance, the Imperial Sourcebook and other sources makes it clear the semi-sovereign full-member polities are the million worlds commonly cited. If each is sovereign in its own right, you would expect there to be a million-odd senators, one for each polity. Yet the films and most sources often show a working group of senators limited to a thousand or so. So there have been a lot of attempted fixes; Publius has suggested that the million-strong Senate self-elects a presidium of itself, with most senators in the working minority wielding not only their own world's vote, but also the votes-by-proxy of on average, a thousand or so worlds. Other suggestions have been that sectorial senators are elected for the purposes of most galactic representation (which is problematic because the Empire at least consisted of well over a thousand sectors, with more than one region being described as containing "thousands" of sectors according to the Imperial Sourcebook). No detailed official explanation has been provided. The Senator for Chommell Minor representing the Chommel Sector collectively for a time after the Senator for the Kingdom of Naboo would lend credence to Publius' theory.

[PainRack]

Yes, but as I admitted, the crates may not neccesarily be volatile (I did notice in rewatching the episode that SBD blasts seeme dto be knocking some of the crates around) But that doesn't mean that because the crates may not be volatiel that no other volatile objects exist (obviously not.)

So? Up your firepower high enough so that it burn through the crates and hit the clonetroopers hiding on the other side. It doesn't have to be a single shot either, it may require repeated bursts, but so what?

And yet they can't hit the clones (or the clones hit the droids) despite teh close ranges? Come on. Besides which, even ignoring the accuracy bit, that doesn't guarantee they WON'T hit things. Ricochets might happen, for eample. And didn't we also see tons of shoots shooting PAST the clones? They can't control every single bolt now, can they? Or are we going to assume that every bolt was somehow self-guided?

Hang on, I'm not the one making accuracy statements about the droids being smart enough not to hit violatile targets.

The point is, in this scenario, there was no reason for the droids not to be using increased firepower so as to waste away the Clones. Your argument that the droids might be using limited firepower in lieu of violatiles doesn't wash, since we already SEE the droids blasting away at said crates, which means that they aren't afraid of the crates being violate, they're blasting away merrily into thin air as part of suppression fire, which means they're NOT afraid of hitting stray targets and etc etc etc. Said fuel drums were vulnerable to the clonetrooper pistols, that's obviously not a standard of high damage capacity casing. And even if there were violatile targets lying around, that made even MORE sense to blast THROUGH the limited cover the clonetroopers were lying around in, since you would miss hitting the stray fuel tanks lying around. And even if said crates were violatile, it would be the clonetroopers and the Jedi eating the dust, not you.

Or at worse, the droid armies lose another bunch of droids and a tank. What's that compared to the million droids being produced daily?

We already knew the droid army was being commanded badly. They have a flimsy command structure that's inflexible and slow to respond to changing circumstances. Its unweildy, vulnerable to cracking under pressure and droid tactics places too little value on cover and force preservation. Droids would smash aside other droids so as to take their place in the firing line and etc. I'm just saying the Clone wars series show that the droids obviously must have another layer of stupidity layered into them. The inability to choose appropiate firepower and weapons to the situation. Look at how they chose to take out Jar Jar Binks. Deploy a goodly number of depth charges, THEN launch a missile? One that's powerful enough to cause a huge blast, but not take out the big fish monster, meaning they invested a significant amount of its payload on concussive effects. Good when used against solid or in this case, underwater. But one has to wonder why the droid armies chose to use a blast weapon as an AP weapon. Alternatively, witness the hunt against Master Yoda and the 4 clonetroopers in the first episode. Slow tactical response and inappropiate tactics and weapons.......

[Noble713]

That's the exact same reasoning behind the automatic in modern days firearms. The auto-button allows for improved armour penetration.
...
Pro-PROTIP: You don't need suppressive fire when you can have penetrating fire. What the hell do you think the auto mechanism is for on the M4 and M-16?
...
For those of you who don't know, hiding behind a car may protect you from single shot M-16 bullets........ It does absolutely nothing however against the auto 3 shot burst, which increases the penetrating power of a well aimed burst, unless you're hiding behind the engine block.

I spent 2 years as an infantryman and I've NEVER heard this line of reasoning before. In my experience, 3-rd burst fire (and by extension auto fire, if our M4's had it) was used solely to pick up the slack of fire suppression when a fire team/squad's SAW/M60/etc. is down due to jams, reloading, or barrel changes. The only way you'd significantly increase penetration would be if the rounds were practically hitting the same hole, one after the other, and that's highly unlikely with any assault rifle except the Russian AN-94.

Here's a relevant quote from the 2003 edition of the US Army's FM 3-22.9 Basic Rifle Marksmanship, on automatic and burst fire.

a. Effectiveness of Automatic or Burst Fire. Automatic or burst fire is inherently less accurate than semiautomatic fire. The first full-automatic shot fired may be on target, but recoil and a high-cyclic rate of fire often combine to place subsequent rounds far from the desired point of impact. Even controlled (three-round burst) automatic or burst fire may place only one round on the target. Because of these inaccuracies, it is difficult to evaluate the effectiveness of automatic or burst fire, and even more difficult to establish absolute guidelines for its use.

(1) Closely spaced multiple targets, appearing at the same time at 50 meters or closer, may be engaged effectively with automatic or burst fire. More widely spaced targets appearing at greater distances should be engaged with semiautomatic fire.

(2) The M16-series rifles and the M4-series should normally be employed in the semiautomatic mode. Depending on the tactical situation, the following conditions would be factors against the use of automatic or burst fire:

Ammunition is in short supply or resupply may be difficult.
Single targets are being engaged.
Widely spaced multiple targets are being engaged.
The distance to the target is beyond 50 meters.
The effect of bullets on the target cannot be observed.
Artificial support is not available.
Targets may be effectively engaged using semiautomatic fire.

(3) In some combat situations, the use of automatic or burst fire can improve survivability and enhance mission accomplishment. Clearing buildings, final assaults, FPF, and ambushes may require limited use of automatic or burst fire. Depending on the tactical situation, the following conditions may favor the use of automatic or burst fire:

Enough available ammunition. Problems are not anticipated with resupply.
Closely spaced multiple targets appear at 50 meters or less.
Maximum fire is immediately required at an area target.
Tracers or some other means can be used to observe the effect of bullets on the target.
Leaders can maintain adequate control over weapons firing on automatic.
Good artificial support is available.
The initial sound of gunfire disperses closely spaced targets.

(4) Trainers must ensure soldiers understand the capabilities and limitations of automatic or burst fire. They must know when it should and should not be used.

Notice that penetrating cover isn't discussed at all.

[PainRack]

I spent 2 years as an infantryman and I've NEVER heard this line of reasoning before. In my experience, 3-rd burst fire (and by extension auto fire, if our M4's had it) was used solely to pick up the slack of fire suppression when a fire team/squad's SAW/M60/etc. is down due to jams, reloading, or barrel changes. The only way you'd significantly increase penetration would be if the rounds were practically hitting the same hole, one after the other, and that's highly unlikely with any assault rifle except the Russian AN-94.

We were trained that automatic fire for our SAWs and by extension, the M-16s were to be used against troops hiding behind light cover.

[VT-16]

The new article on the upcoming episode has some possibly big implications for the series, if this means what I think it does: Spoiler

"I thought it was interesting because the clone's logic is understandable," Lee says. "He no longer wants to be just a slave to the Jedi, and wants to try and break that infrastructure. He thinks he's doing the right thing for all the clones and that the sacrifice is worth it."

"It's all about the brotherhood, and how far those boundaries stretch," Greenberg adds. "Even the guy who turns out to be the bad guy makes the case that he was doing it for his brothers. This is about what it means to be a clone and what it means to be part of that brotherhood."

"If one clone can break from his brothers, and what he is bred for as a soldier of the Republic, and act on his own," Lee says, "how many more would do the same? This creates an interesting beginning of something to come."

Emphasis mine. Could this mean Spoiler

we'll finally get clones vs. clones in the Clone Wars

?