Thanas wrote:First off, could someone please fix Crescent's quote tags? I did not say the things he is arguing against, Crown did.
Oh, sorry about that.
Crown wrote:And what does Algae their food source need to grow; nutrients, energy and *dramatic drum roll* ... water!
Then perhaps you should have said that instead of expecting your intentions to be plucked out of the ether. Algae is their food of last resort and what they have to eat when they have absolutely nothing else, so naturally when you said "food", you really meant something very specific. How silly of me. I should have read your mind.
What part of 'spies or luck' did you not understand retard. It is canonical fact that the Cylons would have never found them on New Caprica if suicidal bot hadn't detonated the nuke. They had run out of insiders, and got lucky on that one. Jesus, your inability to understand the most simplest things is unbelievable.
Yes, they found the humans on Caprica due to luck. Congratulations. I said that. I also said that from the Colonial perspective, it didn't matter, because that kind of "luck" gets them killed.
Or, I suppose the resurrection fleet tracking
Galactica was luck?
The baseship sitting in orbit of Kobol
with its Raider squadrons deployed and ready to attack was luck?
The fleet of baseships that jumped their ass at the nebula -
after they'd shaken the pursuit of the tylium ship - was luck?
The Raider squadrons laying in wait for Colonial pilots and constantly attacking them during their asteroid mining venture was luck?
Keep missing the obvious there retard. I'll spell it out for you; the Colonials lost the Cylons with their oh-so-crappy-short range FTL until the Cylons got lucky.
See above. There have been several instances of the Cylons pursuing or intercepting the Colonials without having to rely on spies or luck.
Why not? So a human is more likely?
What? I mean, really... what? No, a human isn't more likely, but the Cylons aren't going to chomp at the bit to betray the humans, not when - by your own admission - they'll get boxed or killed by Cavil for it. Your attempts to paint them as betrayers-in-waiting isn't even a little thought out. Especially since you post quotes about their desire for mortality and to be with the Five. That's not going to happen if someone goes running back to Cavil.
This is especially rich, when later on you actually mock me on saying the Rebels are more of a threat to Cavil than refugees. We'll leave that rebuttal for later, for this all I have to say is; what the fuck are you smoking? They are not going anywhere without the final 4, they sure as shit have no advantages in eluding Cavil once the shit hits the fan (i.e. if he ever jumps into weapons range with all of them), you obviously have a demonstrably incapability to understand the mechanics behind the in-universe jump evasion scenario despite it being playing out for 4 years now.
I'm not sure what, exactly, the rebels' threat to Cavil has to do with this. Oh, nothing.
And you're telling me, with a straight face, that if Cavil shows up in force and the only options are running or destruction,
Rebellion, with its superior drive technology and faster response times, wouldn't be best served by cutting and running? Espeically if the humans don't want them around, make it clear they're not wanted and go out of their way to drive that point home at every opportunity. Why, exactly should the Rebels stay and die when they can escape?
Oh, right. "Self interest".
Wait a minute, didn't you JUST SAY, that the Rebels are more likely to survive from Cavil than the fleet? Why would they need a 'binding form of protection'?
Uh... maybe because running is their
last option and their best chance of survival is with a fleet that will actually help them?
Your 'connect the dots' books were full of random scribbles, weren't they?
Oh now I get it; you're a Trekkie! You honestly believe that the mastering of radical new technology, how to apply it, how to maintain it, how to fix it when it breaks down, can be achieved in 40mins or less with some clever use of montages. Hey moron, a recognised in universe expert on this type of stuff flat out said that this was beyond him.
Oh now I get it; you're an idiot.
Again you launch yourself at windmills I did not erect. I said absolutely nothing on how long it would take the Colonials to understand the technology. In an earlier post, I even said the very same thing you just have: that Tyrol couldn't make heads or tails of the Cylon drive tech and the Cylons themselves were essential to the process. But hey, you have to have something to rail over, right?
(However, given the fact that they were able to operate a lobotmized Raider and later hook Sharon and a Heavy Raider's systems into a Raptor, it's not going to take generations for them to figure out Cylon FTL. They do have some experience in this area. You'd know that if you weren't chasing those windmills.)
So wait, now they will betray humanity to Cavil? I can't keep up man, you're flippin' and floppin' like a fish out of water all over the place!
You're not even a little bit smart, are you? Fuck, it's like arguing with mediocrity personified.
You said the rebel Cylons were quite likely to betray humanity to Cavil.
You said the Rebels shouldn't get anything for the tech, or that it should even be used it all.
I said that debliteraly ostracizing a shipfull of people who destroyed a civilization after being enslaved was a really stupid move. Especially people who you consider to be a security risk.
I said that not using the technology increases the risk of your fleet being destroyed by one of those "lucky" encounters.
Yes you are; the idea that this is needed upgrade is not satisfied by any objective criteria.
Crown's Lessons #2: Survival of the human species is not a useful benchmark of measurement.
Again; whether through skill, luck, or spies the Cylons have been attacking the fleet time and time again for years. There are too many 'just in time' escapes - unless you're some kind of moron who assumes that escaping with seconds to spare every tiime is perfectly fine. Increasing the range of the fleet's jump drives reduces the chances of Cavil's ships finding them.
In turn, this increases the chance of humanity putting more distance between them and the killer robots. In turn again, this makes it more likely that the human race will not end in a lot of screaming, pain and fire.
Clearly, a completely arbitrary criteria.
The idea of ceding political representation to the beings responsible for your race's genocide is not a realistically acceptable one. The idea tat you should give up your autonomy to said genocidal death bots by making your entire ability to escape reliant on them is not a good idea. And yet, you bulk at the mutineers as somehow acting irrationally.
I don't see the Cylons sending Centurions over to force the fleet to accept these upgrades. They offered, made their price known, and the terms were accepted. "Give us the Eye of Jupiter or we'll nuke you," is a demand. "Make us citizens now," is a demand. "For advanced technology, we'd like to be citizens" is not.
No, you said that if you don't give them what they want you're reducing them to 'second class citizens' or the galactic vending machine of technological know how. Stop disassembling with me. You bulked at my saying 'how about not giving them what they demanded because it is fucking insane to even contemplate such a concession with the history given what it is' to mean 'screw them all nice and hard'.
I said that if you keep taking from them without giving anything back, or showing any sort of compromise/trust, then yes - there are, effectively second-class citizens. Responsibilities but no rights. This doesn't help relations in the short term or long term.
I would like to apologize, then - when you said 'fuck them', I assumed you were discussing taking the upgrades, using them and giving the Cylons jack shit. Not taking the upgrades at all is a little more coherent, but it still gambles with the fleet's lives; you can't always get away with seconds to spare and sometime those Cylons are going to be lucky enough that without those upgrades, your ass is grass.
Oh, make no mistake, I wouldn't shed a tear if Adama had done that, but lets call a spade a spade. Flat out capitulating to their demands has precipitated a revolt (in case you weren't watching this was amongst the general population), doing the later would have led to nothing.
It's not a capitultion to accept someone's negotiating terms. Unless they're making them at gunpoint. Three's attempts to get the Final Five fit that bill. The Cylon offer here does not. As you've said yourself - not accepting them means nothing, except an increased risk of extinction. If the Cylons were saying "you have to take these FTL and give us a seat of Quorum", that's a demand. They weren't cramming the technology down the fleet's throat. Instead, they said "if you want the drives, we want representation."
Could have said no. Then, nothing. But their offer was accepted.
How would be telling them 'no' to a seat on the Quorom have started a shooting war?
It wouldn't, not right away. But taking the drives (which I now understand not to be your position) and giving the rebels the finger would increase the chance of one.
I get tired of correcting your imperfect memory (lets be generous here and not call it outright lying);
We're not all blessed with your MASSIVE BRAIN. I'm sorry I can't remember the exact dialogue from episodes I saw months and weeks ago.
Eight; I stripped the pliers, I had no idea he would give them to her though.
Eight; I chose you Felix, over my own kind!
Do you see a contradiction in the two statements there?
No, because if she was really going to sacrifice all the humans for herself and her sister,
Gaeta wouldn't be alive to confess to. She would have killed him anyways. Maybe she intended for herself, her sister and Felix to live. Maybe not, but we know that this Eight has no qualms about killing defenceless humans, so why would she not simply kill him along with the others? There was plenty of opportunity to do so.
Wait, wait. D'anna isn't really a rebel but the final 4 - 3 of which by the way, have chosen to shun their Cylon buddies and remain upon the Galactica - are? Wanna backpeddle more on that one sport?
Considering that D'Anna only joined with the rebels to avoid being killed, no she's not really a rebel. And considering that the situation with the other Cylons is what prompted the music to return (unless you subscribe to the notion that it was completely random and therefore ignore the characters' thoughts on the issues and the way the series has been moving so far) to the Four, then yes. The Cylons helped find Earth. Remember Starbuck's visions of Earth? The ones that led her to the crippled baseship.
Yes, clearly the rebels had no role to play whatsoever.
So ... uh ... you're gonna concede the point that the Hub was no sacrifice to them at all or what? Oh, and the betrayal they were planing was on the snatch and grab for D'anna (the same one President Stands with a Fist was planing) because the goal was the final 5 and Earth.
I'm pretty sure that even though it was closed to them, blowing up their species only way to survive without reproduction was a sacrifice, yes. That condemning the millions of their lines who weren't aboard
Rebellion to permanent death - when they hadn't had a chance to be outside the resurrection network long enough to share Natalie's epiphany - was a sacrifice.
Jesus titty fucking Christ we're dealing with a special one here; the Hub was not 'there's to give' you idiot. It was no sacrifice for them to give the Colonials the Hub, and it fulfilled their own objective of; A) being more mortal, and B) screwing over Cavil who wanted anything but. Concede, this is just embarrassing now.
Who's was it, then? It was a Cylon installation, built for and used by Cylons. Clearly, a Cylon has absolutely no claim on it.
Besides, what about the other 268s who weren't aboard
Rebellion? What happens to them now? Oops, they're dead for good once Cavil's forces kill them. Yes, sentencing millions of your brothers and sisters to permament death is not a sacrifice at all. Understand yet?
Natalie gave up the lives of all the millions of 2s, 6s, and 8s who weren't lucky enough to be on that baseship. She sacrificed millions of her supporters with the destruction of the Hub.
That's right, the big bad three who has the super magical mystical mind control over all over Cylons. The one who by your own admission still views humanity as a 'threat' and an 'enemy', who is actually still alive and with the Rebels, how silly of me.
Where did I say anything about Threes having mind control powers? Oh, in your head. Sorry about that. I said - and the creator confirmed it in an interview - that Threes tend to dominate the other models. In case you hadn't noticed before; over the Algae Planet, on New Caprica and on
Rebellion, it's always the Threes taking the lead. It doesn't take someone with a MASSIVE BRAIN to understand that being dominerring is not equal to mental powers.
Yes, because the Rebels who have an army of Centurions, who do not need to sleep/eat/drink couldn't set up a better and more realistic threat to him than a bunch of rag-tag of humanity who need to find a place to set child care centres.
And how are they going to replace these Centurions? How are they going to ship them to war zones if their raiders get shot down? Are they going to take down entire fleets of Cavil's basestars with TEH UBER CENTURIONS!!!!!!!!!
No, I've got it - through Crown's Magic of Somehow!
Oh you made a typo, and I admitted in being an absolute tard in bringing it up to mock you but couldn't resist. Be a man, grow up and just fess up to the typo.
Or you could have shown more tact then that of an eight year old. Apparently, that is beyond you.
Holy Shit! You don't get the above do you? Holy crap this is hilarious, here let me spell it out for the mentally retarded; you mention how good the rebels were in standing together in their rebellion and you listed them as such; '3s joined the 2s, 6s and 8s in their rebellion' and then in the very next paragraph you say; 'Could it possibly be that Three - who tend to dominate the other Cylons in case you missed the third season and Moore's commentary about that line - wasn't one of the Rebels ...' So uh, yeah, lol?
Oh, sorry. I made a mistake. I also assumed you were bright enough to figure that out for yourself. For someone who prides himself on his knowledge of the show, you're not really that capable of doing that.
See above moron, and cease and desist with these Straw Mans. I have never advocated for anything more than Adama showing more than 2 braincells to rub together when dealing with these toasters.
I'm pretty sure that Adama's figured out that if the Cylons want to betray humanity, they don't need to sneak around with engine upgrades. They can just use the
nuclear missile-armed warship they have sitting in the middle of the fleet to launch a surprise strike.
Oops, no more
Galactica and the fleet's a shooting gallery.
What's that? Some human ships escaped? Well, it's a good thing they didn't get any of our FTL drives, so now we can hunt them down at our leisure!
Seriously. If the rebels want to fuck over the fleet, they don't need to bother wih offering the upgrades. In fact, it makes it easier to do so if the humans don't have them and the Cylons spin some cock-and-bull about systems incompatibility.
Moron's Wall of Ignorance at display again. I'm going to spell this out for you in nice big shinny letters; IMMORTALITY WAS NOT AVAILABLE TO THEM THE MOMENT THEY LOST CONTROL OF THE HUB AND THE RESURRECTION SHIPS this has been said again, and again, and again. They were giving nothing up by destroying the Hub because they could never use it again.
They were giving up the lives of the rest of their models, dumbass. If the Hub remained in play, there was a chance the rebels could take it back. But if it's gone, they move closer to God... and so does Cavil and the rest of 268 lines who don't get that chance.
Natalie, sadly: We're rebels. We can't go back. What matters most to us is being with the Five. D'Anna will be able to identify them. We'll take you to the Hub if you help us unbox D'Anna.
Bolded for you. The hub was closed to the rebels, but they were also trading it for D'Anna. They weren't going to blow it up themselves; outside the resurrection network
they're already mortal. They don't need the Hub to go boom to stay mortal. Its destruction was for the humans, to get them to help unbox D'Anna.
Like I said, you're just painfully mediocre.
Natalie: In our civil war, we've seen death. We've watched our people die. Gone forever. As terrible as it was, beyond the reach of the Resurrection Ships, something began to change. We could feel a sense of time, as if each moment held its own significance. We began to realize that for our existence to hold any value, it must end. To live meaningful lives, we must die and not return. The one human flaw that you spend your lifetimes distressing over, mortality, is the one thing... Well, it's the one thing that makes you whole. I believe it was no accident that we were found by Kara Thrace. It was destiny...
Again: they were
already mortal. They're already outside the network.
Your own quotes prove that. The rebels didn't need to destroy the Hub to be mortal. It's destruction is to spite Cavil and as a bargaining chip for Colonial help. And in its destruction, they sacrificed all the other 268s who might still have been fighting, might have had a chance to re-take the Hub.
Even if I concede any of the above (and given your demonstrably inability to remember the fucking whole premise of the Hub that's me putting a lot of faith in your memory), none of it changes the fact the the 'slow coach' colonials have done fucking well enough on their own to escape repeated and multiple Cylon ambushes in the past (for a whole year with no Cylon's what so ever mind you), and the constant 'rar! Fear! Cavil!' excuse is actually the lamest and weakest argument for installing Cylon FTL on colonial ships (and computers too now).
Yes, because my inability to perfectly remember dialogue is exactly the same as being unable to remember
plot points. It sure saved you from having to worry about a rebuttal, didn't it, though?
Anyways, since you're unable to do so, I'll provide some examples where Colonial FTL doesn't cut it:
Kobol's Last Gleaming: Starbuck would have been unable to get to Caprica as quickly relying on Colonial engines.
Scattered: the
Galactica's computers require hours - minutes once networked - to re-calculate the Fleet's position after the disastrous jump. During that time, they are exposed to attack from a baseship, when they can't cut and run.
Lay Your Burdens Down: the rescue mission to Caprica wasn't possible without a Cylon jump drive and Cylon "navigator".
The Passage: The Colonial ships are forced to jump through the plasma storm (or whatever it is) to reach Algae Planet. Two ships are lost. The Cylon baseships show up over the planet, un-scorched. Either they circumnavigated the storm - which the Colonials didn't have time to do because of the food shortage - or they weren't in it long enough to take damage, unlike the Colonial ships.
There you are, three examples of the Colonial jump tech not being as useful as Cylon technology.
