The OotS thread

[Molyneux]

This is making me wonder...if V tried to make up for killing the dragon's child, at this point, is there any way that a resurrection could actually be accomplished? It would make for a pretty interesting sidequest.

And vengeful or no, odds are the dragon would rather have its kid back than kill V's.

[Serafina]

Sure - a true resurection spell (which does not need the body), a clerical Wonder or a Wish + normal resurection (the wish can restore the body). Oh, and divine intervention, of course .

[consequences]

This is presuming that the dragon didn't already do that, and that she really truly cares about her loved ones living, and isn't just a vengeful bitch doing this out of pure spite.

[Sriad]

This is presuming that the dragon didn't already do that, and that she really truly cares about her loved ones living, and isn't just a vengeful bitch doing this out of pure spite.

Unlikely; black dragons never get 9th level spells unless they level up Sorcerer separately. And the OOTS world isn't particularly high-leveled from what we've seen. There are probably only a handful of 17+ casters (even including Xykon, maybe Redcloak) in the world.

Of course, it is very draconic (or vengeful-bitchy, if you prefer) that she asked the oracle how to get revenge instead of how to resurrect her kid, as far as we know.

[NecronLord]

This is of course, assuming that the ex dragon involved wants to come back from... wherever it is black dragons go when they die.

[Serafina]

And if the god (or whatever) controlling the afterlive is permitting it (at least according to D&D rules, which OOtS does not have to follow).

But the explanation that she simply did not THINK about it is really good - its a black dragon after all, and dragons in OOtS are color coded for your convenience - the evil ones are NOT all shiny

[Ender]

This is presuming that the dragon didn't already do that, and that she really truly cares about her loved ones living, and isn't just a vengeful bitch doing this out of pure spite.

She has no hoard, how will she acquire the diamonds?

[consequences]

This is presuming that the dragon didn't already do that, and that she really truly cares about her loved ones living, and isn't just a vengeful bitch doing this out of pure spite.

She has no hoard, how will she acquire the diamonds?

Find an appropriately sized town, terrorize it into giving her 30000 gold for components and casting cost. Ambush random adventuring parties. Cast excessively high level spells for others for the standard cost for a week or two. She's had more than four months just since the fall of Azure City to get off her ass and do something about it.


She also doesn't seem to have bothered rezzing her mate, even when she had a hoard(and a body isn't a requirement for a True Ressurection). So my default assessment until evidence to the contrary is presented is that she's a vindictive bitch lashing out because something she saw as 'hers' was taken away, and that she'd rather keep the 30K gold when she gets it than spend it getting a family member back.

[NecronLord]

She's had more than four months just since the fall of Azure City to get off her ass and do something about it.

And then she's got to find a seventeenth or higher level cleric who is likely more powerful than she is (as far as we know, she's an old black dragon, CR16; a 17th level character is CR17) who won't kill her for being an abomination, kill her to make armour out of her, or enslave her... Or take the money and say 'it failed, no garuntees.'

[consequences]

Right, what intelligence does an old black dragon have again? Because I'm pretty sure it's better than the piddly-ass 12-13 which is the best I could expect for myself in a D&D world. Plus of course the hundreds of years she's been alive to make contacts. Like the oracle who she went to that can answer any question, like 'How can I most quickly and effectively raise my son and mate from the dead while retaining my and their health and freedom in the process?'

Funny, she didn't ask that question, she went for revenge. So, the simplest explanation, accounting for her intelligence, resources, contacts, and in-universe knowledge, is that she doesn't give a shit whether they live or stay dead, only about punishing the insult.

[LadyTevar]

Funny, she didn't ask that question, she went for revenge. So, the simplest explanation, accounting for her intelligence, resources, contacts, and in-universe knowledge, is that she doesn't give a shit whether they live or stay dead, only about punishing the insult.

And thus, she is being a Dragon. Even good dragons would get upset over the insult.

[Solauren]

I remember reading once back in the days of 2E that you needed specific variants of Raise Dead, etc, to revive a dragon due to the nature of their souls.

It might be possible that she can't bring them back from the dead and go 'okay, fine, they took our hoards, boo hoo, time to go loot a few caravans', and that's the reason she's out for revenge.

Or the spells are not required to be unique, but the dead dragons didn't want to come back. I mean, can you really see tearing a Black Dragon away from what it would consider the perfect afterlife?

It's also possible she was out looking for a way to revive her dead mate when the Order of the Stick got her offspring, and having failed, knows it's not possible.

Now, as an evil dragon, it's probably she didn't even consider bringing them back, and went straight for payback. It's also possible she doesn't have the resources, and plans to extract revenge and then use the Orders resources to have the kid (and mate?) raised.

We really don't know.

All we know is there is a pissed of Ancient Black Dragon holding the Order of the Stick responsible for the death of her child, and she intends for that to be repaid in blood.

I wonder if V will be smart enough to try to convince the dragon to oh, work with the Order of the Stick in exchange for them finding a way to bring her child (and mate) back. I'm sure a dragon could be useful. All you need is a magical contract and poof, binding deal.

[consequences]

See, the trouble with all of those things is that they are adding extra previously unknown factors to arrive at what we see. Whereas her being spiteful and out for revenge is already established. And any Black dragon that was actually sufficiently chaotic evil to make it to chaotic evil paradise would always go for the prospect of revenge on those who had killed it, their families, their families' pets, and their families' pets' friends' fleas.

And Tevar, a good dragon, or even an evil one that liked having it's family on the same plane of existence and was actually using that supra-genius intellect, would raise it's family, then kick the living shit out of the adventurers in concert with them. I'm practically doing cartwheels here to make the dragon have a motive for the specific actions she's taking, and not simply being an ill-conceived idiot lizard.

Edit: oh yeah, and to throw out anti-magic shell, wou'ldn't she have to be caster level 15 or more? That makes her either a great wyrm, or an old dragon with 8+ levels of sorceror.

[Solauren]

or a few levels of Wizard + Ultimate Magius (which would be terrifying)

[Serafina]

You do not need a special spell to revive dragons. Only outsiders can not be revived "normally", but even on those, the mentioned high-level spells work. Heck, a wonder works on EVERYTHING, as long as your god agrees.

[NecronLord]

Edit: oh yeah, and to throw out anti-magic shell, wou'ldn't she have to be caster level 15 or more? That makes her either a great wyrm, or an old dragon with 8+ levels of sorceror.

Indeed. Misread the caster level before. She'd presumably as you say be a great wyrm.

However she still has to go to a civilised area, and try and find a well intentioned high level cleric. Without disguising herself (a questionable effort at best, even with magic, these folks tend to have ways of dealing with that) this is easier said than done when you are best known for melting humans with acid and polluting water. I really think you're overestimating how easy it is to get this done.

And you're assuming the religious beliefs (and the goddess) permit this.

And that she knows the place and time of birth (according to the Dragonomicon, male back dragons normally tend the eggs alone, and incubation periods vary... and hell, the eggs are left outside, and presumably moved later so she wouldn't even know the place, so she'd not know that) or death (hey, 'Oh Oracle of Tiamat, tell me every detail of the death of my son X' is actually a prerequisite of knowing the time of death anyway) being able to state either of these is the sample prerequisite for use of True Ressurection, though not necesserily the only way to do it. For all we know the answer she got was vague enough that she has to torture the exact date and time of death out of V, anyway.

D&D rules for ressurection are vague enough that you can come up with dozens of ways to deny their use. They're intentionally written that way, to stop PCs solving mystery plots with them (hence the place/time sample requirement, you don't know the local lord's exact details offhand).

[consequences]

Huh, black dragons don't actually get above the level of human geniuses. Still, some iteration of, 'what is the exact knowledge I need in order to ressurect my family and take revenge in the most safe and time efficient manner possible', with however much fine tuning is needed to close loopholes should be a doable question(as is, demonstrably, threating the little smarmy lizard to get additional questions if the first flubs). It's the oracle that's the dealbreaker here, without that little kobold annoyance, I'd be able to let the issue slide.

Adding no ressurection requirements to the religion would be another added factor with no evidence existing as yet(and the fact that the oracle is allowed to be raised makes it extremely unlikely to be the case).

[NecronLord]

Huh, black dragons don't actually get above the level of human geniuses. Still, some iteration of, 'what is the exact knowledge I need in order to ressurect my family and take revenge in the most safe and time efficient manner possible', with however much fine tuning is needed to close loopholes should be a doable question(as is, demonstrably, threating the little smarmy lizard to get additional questions if the first flubs)

Threatening his holy oracles is a bad way to get your (if it's standard D&D Tiamat, spiteful bitch of a) goddess to allow a ressurection.

(and the fact that the oracle is allowed to be raised makes it extremely unlikely to be the case).

What she should have asked is 'how do I most efficiently get my son raised' and then get the answer 'kill me, and pay the clerics that ressurect me to do it.'

[Raxmei]

The dragon's remains are completely gone, the leftovers from the disintegration having dissolved into the swamp. You'd need True Resurrection, a 9th level spell, to fix that. Maybe there just aren't any 17th level NPC clerics in the game setting.

An ancient black dragon would need one level of sorceror to gain access to antimagic field. It's a sixth level spell, sorcerors gain access at 12th level, and ancient black has a caster level of 11.

[lance]

The dragon's remains are completely gone, the leftovers from the disintegration having dissolved into the swamp. You'd need True Resurrection, a 9th level spell, to fix that. Maybe there just aren't any 17th level NPC clerics in the game setting.

An ancient black dragon would need one level of sorceror to gain access to antimagic field. It's a sixth level spell, sorcerors gain access at 12th level, and ancient black has a caster level of 11.

I think with the quote of "I too have a passion for the arcane arts...even moreso than others of my kind" it is obviouse that she has a higher caster level than a normal X aged black dragon.

[Raxmei]

I think with the quote of "I too have a passion for the arcane arts...even moreso than others of my kind" it is obviouse that she has a higher caster level than a normal X aged black dragon.

Yeah, I know. I was just correcting the fellow who thought it required caster level 15. If dragons cast as clerics, sure, but they cast as sorcerors.

[Serafina]

The dragon's remains are completely gone, the leftovers from the disintegration having dissolved into the swamp. You'd need True Resurrection, a 9th level spell, to fix that. Maybe there just aren't any 17th level NPC clerics in the game setting.

Redcloak is around that level, IIRC.

Besides, OOtS is not really a "low-power" world - we have at LEAST one epic character running around, and more than that (one dead epic wizard).

[Ender]

629 up.

Being of indistinguishable sex with white skin but black genes... did Rich just make a Michael Jackson crack?

[Lord Relvenous]

629 up.

Am I the only one that can't load the page? I can't even load the main Giant in the Playground page.

[Eulogy]

This will either be an epic sidequest or a really humiliating encounter for the dragon. Also notice the irony inherent the remark about it being okay to kill black dragons.