nBSG Episode 4.13 “The Oath” (SPOILERS)

[Khaat]

The largest failing with Gaeta's mutiny is he hasn't even played it as a legitimate change. Helo quoted articles when he attempted to relieve Thrace of command of the (crap-treatment ship). Gaeta has just opened up a floodgate of rage and resentment. His personal "high road answer" may be "Adm. Adama has no right to force the RTF to accept this", but his motivations are not noble: he's recruited scum to get even (so I expect Anders to get spaced, since he's the one who shot Gaeta, then turned out to be a cylon on top of it!) His issue with Adm. Adama is personal: "You broke my hero-icon! It was my last one!"

Gaeta, hero of the flight from the colonies, lap-dog of President Baltar, hero of the Resistance on New Caprica, man of inaction then collateral damage in the mutiny under Thrace, morpha junkie, pawn of Zarek, mutineer, soon to be space junk. I do wonder what Baltar has on him, it can't be as simple as perjuring himself at Baltar's trial.

Unfortunately, the timing in which the writers choose to involve the Quorum in issues is about as annoying as creeping scientific inaccuracy ("Uh, earth is nuked. Nuked! Can't stay!"). The Quorum is too often used as a pop-up to raise the stakes, present or missing only to push up the stakes. Weak writing.

[JLTucker]

I do wonder what Baltar has on him, it can't be as simple as perjuring himself at Baltar's trial.

This was explained in The Face of the Enemy webisodes.

I can't seem to figure out what RTF stands for. Can someone enlighten me?

[Vympel]

Rest of The Fleet.

[Lord MJ]

Rest of The Fleet.

I thought it meant Rag Tag Fugitive Fleet or Rag Tag Fleet.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Man, if I disliked Gaeta before, I hate the sumbitch now. Anyone else thinking End of Evangelion with the mutiny?

[Anguirus]

This bullshit has no basis in reality. Dialogue from the episodes in question has been posted. Post evidence rather than speculation in your own imaginary fucked up world rebut, or shut the fuck up.

Wait, so dialogue is required, rather than the observable fact that there were thousands of Eights that were killed aboard the Hub? Do you really think that just because the rebels have decided to end resurrection that there is no sacrifice whatsoever on their part by doing so?

Yeah, they're regular heroes. Or unstable double crossing genocidal fucknuts. You know, the kind of people you want to place your trust in.

It sounds like you watch this show simply to yell at the screen for not punishing the villains enough. Since I don't have a completely black-and-white worldview, I don't feel that punishing the Cylons takes precedence over adding a significant military asset to the pathetic remnants of humanity.

I would not ask them. I wouldn't even consider installing tech that would make me totally dependent on them for survival.

It's not like you need Sixes and Eights to operate the new jump drives, just to install them. Humans have used Cylon jump computers before, to raid Caprica.

Think of it this way...there is a ship full of enemies next door who have offered to upgrade your shit, and thus drastically improve your chances of surviving the next few months, as well as handing you their greatest tactical advantage on a silver platter. If they turn bad in the future, then you have their technology already.

As for whether they are likely to sabotage all the human ships,
1) they will be accompanied by Marines
2) Athena is an asset that the Colonials can use to look over the Cylons' shoulders
3) the Cylons are simply not in a position to betray the humans. They have one ship and they can't reproduce on their own because they blew up their facility for doing so. It boggles the mind that this cannot be considered a Big Screaming Deal.
4) They don't have any motivation to do so, either, considering that they are no longer trying to beat anyone to Earth, the Final Five are not being threatened or hidden (well, except by Gaeta), their mini-messiah lives on Galactica and their ruthless leader just exiled herself on Earth. They have also lacked any religious motivation to destroy the human race since Caprica Six and Boomer convinced them to turn this around way back at the end of Season 2.

Getting everything they want, and not giving up ONE GOD DAMNED THING is not 'working for their redemption'.

Did you have family on the Colonies, or what?

Joking aside, they are working for free to upgrade everyone's jump drives, and all they want is the right to be considered part of the Fleet. Even if Galactica had the moral authority to order all the Cylons shot, they do not have the firepower to do so considering that the basestar has more nukes than they do.

What exactly do the Cylons gain from this deal anyway? All they want is to be allies. Play nice with the toasters and they'll give you free things. Don't play nice with the toasters, and you have no reason to expect them to play nice with you. And installing jump drives on 60 ships is working...it is neither waterboarding them nor is it kicking their puppies, but it is work, being done by some of the most valuable Cylons still breathing in the rebel faction (their engineers and pilots), and they are volunteering to do it for a bunch of Cylon-hating Colonials for the sake of mutual self-interest.

It cannot have escaped your attention that if the Cylons take their ball and go home, the Colonies lose more than they do. There is nothing actually wrong with the basestar, as it has not lost its capacity for self-regeneration. (It held off two other undamaged basestars in its last combat.) They can take off at any time and the Colonials cannot catch them, and while this will be a bit of a shit sandwich for the Cylons, they DO have fewer mouths to feed (and if you're right about the resurrection apparatus being the key to everything, they will start breeding like rabbits).

I think you people need to take a step back from fairyland and into real world if you could even begin to characterise Gaeta's response as 'insane' (relative to what's been shown on this show any way).

Killing humans is an insane act for humans to be doing at this point.

If Gaeta and his rape-happy pals had simply sat on their asses, dozens of marines, crewmen, and fit civilians, as well as an aerospace engineer, would still be alive.

But hey, I guess cause the Sunshine Boys and Tom Zarek hate the Cylons more than Adama does, then they must be White Hats and the real heroes of this show.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Anguirus summed it up nicely. The moral relativism going on now is necessary for the humans to avoid going extinct. It's no longer "kill toasters on sight", hasn't been for a while. That some hold grudges is understandable. Understandable, not acceptable and certainly not actions that kill other humans, throw away a potentially huge technical advantage should Cavil's lot show up, and doom the species to slow agonising death.

If you want justice against an aggressor, you don't start the trial in the middle of a crisis.

[Bladed_Crescent]

Oh believe me, I'm more angry at myself than you ever could be for not realising earlier that I was dealing with a pathetic little twat that needed even the most basic things explained to him in the most simplest terms in order for it to sink in. I've wasted more than enough time on this little freak side show than I would have ever thought necessary.

Then my plan of getting you to take your rage out on your own body is halfway to completion. Here's a coupon to Denny's.

New Caprica. Oh, I suppose I could go line-by-line rebuttal but why the fuck bother? It is canonical fact that the archaic slow coach FTL drives have allowed humanity to survive and elude destruction for 4 years. It is also canonical fact that the Cylons admitted they would never have found them on New Caprica (1 year colonisation by the way there sparky).

For the third time: I have not argued that the Cylons have not been lucky. I have not argued that New Caprica was due to random chance. I don't know why you keep bringing up New Caprica when I keep agreeing with you about it.
I have, instead, pointed out several examples where the Cylons have found the Colonial fleet without resorting to luck or spies. It is also canonical fact that in these incidents that "allowed humanity to survive" has still had the humans encounter the Cylons on multiple occasions, even when the Cylons aren't being lucky. And that many escapes have been by their skin of their teeth. If you can do something to reduce the chance of lucky encounters and make it even harder for a determined search to find you, why would you not? Or are you foolish to assume that nothing will ever, ever go wrong with the Colonial FTL and the system they have now is good enough? When, canonically, the man in charge of the fucking fleet thinks it isn't!

If me agreeing with you that the Cylons have been lucky, several times, isn't enough what else are you looking for?

As above; oh and let's not forget that D'anna was part of the fleet the entire time. Err ... hello?

Proof. Now. You make this claim that D'Anna was leading the Cylons to them, you prove it. The only time we saw her do that was in "Final Cut" to summon two Raiders to get the footage of Athena's presence out to the Cylons.

If she was feeding the fleet's location to the Cylons as you seem to be implying, why the fuck did the Cylons lose the Colonials after the Olympic Carrier was shot down? Why wasn't the civilian fleet obliterated in Scattered when Galactica wasn't there to protect them? They didn't have Athena or Hera then; there was no reason to allow the humans to survive. So acting as a spy for the genocidal Cylons, D'Anna of course led her fellows straight to the humans.

Or not. Whyever could that be?

I think the answer is simple: you're just an idiot clutching at straws.

But fear not: you are quite the hilarious idiot, you can rest assured of that.

So since we've established that assuming Cavil is somehow still tracking the Fleet despite knowing full well that Cylon tracking is not omnipotent, and can be eluded, and has been eluded, and since we flat out know that they had infiltrators/tracking devices on board that did allow them to track the fleet in the past and we can assume that the former has now been addressed (all models known), and the later is unlikely (kinda would have been something the Rebels would have pointed out to remove) that leads us to one probability (again remember we are talking 'in-universe' here, not what we all know the writer's will do) for Cavil to find them; betrayal.

Or Cavil could actually look for them.

Buh buh space is biiiiiiggg!

Well, of course. But Galactica and the fleet have certain requirements. Food, water (remember, for whatever reason they didn't harvest ice from a comet - they had to find a planet with it. While they might be able to be self-sustaining with algae, they still need nutrients to feed it, and they harvest those from planets). That narrows the field considerably. And as Cavil pointed out in The Eye of Jupiter, the time something takes (in that case, finding Earth) doesn't matter to machines. That, and ending "the human pestilence" is pretty high up his list. So, in-universe: they have a determined opponent who wants to exterminate both rebels and humans and is willing to go to any lengths in order to do so.

Lucky encounters or not, why would you increase the chance of Cavil locating you when there is a way to make that even less likely?

there are FOUR FUCKING YEARS of episodes for you to look at which show you that the Colonials emergency jump protocols are working just fine.

Clearly!

When Galactica gave the wrong jump coordinates to the fleet and had to jump back into a baseship's fire zone for (hours without Gaeta networking the systems; then minutes after doing so) to re-calculate the position of the civilian ship, that was working just fine. Never mind the fact that an Eight could do much the same thing in moments. "Face of the Enemy".

When the Colonials had to jump through a star's corona/plasma storm and lost two ships because it, that was their drives working just fine.

When they needed Cylon tech to retreive both the Arrow of Apollo and the Caprican resistance because the time and distance imposed by Colonial drives made those missions unfeasible, that was those Colonial drives working just fine.

Which is it you little worm? Stop hedging your bets and answer the fucking point.

You had a point? No, you didn't. You screamed, waved your hands, called me a Trekkie and then started whining about me not understanding how technology works.

I said that I fucking agreed with you because, yes, Tyrol said that the Cylons drives were too complex for the humans. Then I said that given time (this is the important part, which you unsuprisingly sailed right past in your Quixotic crusade) the humans would eventually figure them out themselves. Which is a far cry from instantly figuring them out, as you seemed to think I was saying. But why let the facts get in the way of your hysterics?

I say, steady on lad!

I supported my belief that the humans would eventually figure out the Cylon drives, because - and this is the shocker - they've figured out other Cylon technology before, well enough to hook it into their own tech and make it work. That's all.

How is that in any way "hedging my bets"? I said the Cylons were essential to the process at the moment. That's agreeing with you. And at some point in the future (not the next day, week or month) the humans will be able to understand it for themselves.

No, I said that the Rebels shouldn't be given what they want for the tech. I also have said that even installing the tech is leading down the 'very bad idea' path.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I don't agree with the latter point, but I understand your reasons for it.

On the former issue: I've covered why not giving the Cylons a voice in the fleet is a bad idea. Again and again I have covered it; it isolates them, increases mistrust between the factions, gives them no incentive to help the humans understand the tech on their own. Taking the drives and giving them nothing of value is in every way a bad idea.

And I've said you're full of shit to even begin to think that the tech is somehow a silver bullet, or that it should even be considered being installed given you are defacto tying humanities fate to the whims of genocidal robots.

I never said it was a silver bullet! Can you even make it through one response without strawmanning? Just one? I said - repeatedly - that it increases the fleet's chances of survival and decreases the chance of encounters with Cavil's forces, lucky or not. It doesn't magically make the fleet unable to be caught. It doesn't magically find them a home. It makes those things more likely before the fleet starts breaking down. That's all.

Ah, so if this is true; humanity should never stop running. Ever. Because it will be just a matter of time before Cavil finds them. Right?

No, it doesn't mean they have to run forever. It means that they get enough of a lead that they can stop running sooner and settle down. Instead of having a third of the range they could have and running longer. Aboard ships that haven't been properly serviced in 4 years and are cramped, starved for parts and continually running low of resources.

Don't be dense. This was covered in our first exchange. I wouldn't take the upgrades full stop. And even if I did, I would be ceding a lot of my autonomy and my chances of survival to my new 'allies' who were only 4 years ago joyfully participating in the slaughter of my race...

4 years after the end of WWII, USA was advocating that Japan and Germany be re-armed to prevent communist expansion. Clearly, bitter former enemies becoming allies against a mutual threat is completely unpredecented and will always, forever and ever, backfire. Because you need to nurse that grudge. Never let it go. Never forgive and always make sure your former enemies know how much you absolutely hate them. That's the way to make alliances and move forward.

And, to ensure that you don't "misunderstand": I am not saying the slate needs to be wiped clean and Adama needs to enact "Hug a Cylon" day. Just that practically, Rebellion, brings a lot to the fleet. Treating them as something you'd like to scrape off your shoe is not a good plan. Giving them something is beneficial to, and to you and actually helps reduce the chance of betrayal, since both sides can build bridges off that initial framework. If you're on friendly - or at least no openly hostile - terms with a former enemy, they're going to be much less likely to stab you in the back.

And no, this does not mean forgiving, forgetting or anything of the sort. It means working together.

Or, you could harbour your grudges for the sake of harbouring your grudges.

A negotiation is an exchange of proposals to each sides favour. Flat out accepting their latest attempts at political and military extortion is anything but. Why anyone would need this explained to them is beyond me.

So... the Colonials don't make a counter-offer to the Cylons original offer and that suddenly makes it a demand, because there was no "exchange of proposals"? What an interesting world you live in. Especially since you've said that you you wouldn't give them what they wanted (which I'm assuming means citizenship instead of anything they want and therefore, would ask for).

If you're not going to give the Cylons representation for their FTL, what do you offer? You remember this - it's the same question you avoided answered before. A promise for "something" at a late date? "Protection" that doesn't mean a damn because since they're not part of your fleet, you're under no obligation to protect them? Are you going to turn your industry towards repairing and re-arming the baseship? If you're going to accept the tech, what would you deem a fair counter-offer?

Also, just so you know: "We won't kill you all" doesn't count. In fact, it's worse then nothing.

Again: the Cylons didn't make a demand. They made an offer. By your own admission, the Colonial fleet has no real need for these drives. Therefore, there's no imperative for the Cylon tech. Therefore, they couldn't be making a demand! They weren't forcing the Colonials to accept them. They weren't the only option humanity had. If there was an another option on the table, one that you see as perfectly fine, then the Cylons can't be extorting the Colonials, because the Colonials have an option that is just as good, if not better! There's no threat and no consequences to saying no.

Or to put this on the level you can understand: You really, really like desert. Can't go without it. Right now, you have pie. I have cake. I say. "Cake is better than pie; I'll give you this cake if you loan me your car."

If you had no dessert at all, then that would be closer to a demand or an attempt to extort you. But you've got pie. You're happy with pie. Cake doesn't do anything for you and I'm a bad driver, so you don't want to loan your car to me, so you say no.

Have I made a demand? Or have I made an offer that you rejected?

Hey fuck face. I have the grace to check an episode before I use it as evidence to confirm what I remembered as being correct, and failing that I make it clear that I'm going from memory.

And yet you don't have the grace to let typos go. That is hilarious!

You are truly unique.

Then you're an idiot.

My favorite part here is you completely ignoring the fact that if the Eight was the murderous anti-human robot out for her own existence and nothing else as you claimed, she would have killed Gaeta. She wouldn't have confessed to him, tried to get him on her side. She would have killed him just like the others, if all human life meant so little to her.

I guess that is just too darn inconvenient, isn't it?

Funny, I could have sworn it was the black box in Crazybuck's faux Viper that contained all the fucking information needed to get to Earth, but guess you're right. It was them Rebels!

You mean the black box that Tyrol and his engineers went through in the very first episode of the fourth season and said there was absolutely no information in? Remember Starbuck not having any sensor logs or proof that she'd been to Earth except for her visions? Remember her (or Apollo) saying that they'd already gone over the Viper and there was absolutely nothing useful in it in the episode where they do find Earth?

The black box (actually the radio, receiving a transmission that no other radio in the fleet could) that suddenly had information in it after the Four heard the music again. After the rebels showed up. After Starbuck's visions led her to the Rebels.

How are those dots coming?

The Hub:.

Points of 'argument' from the moron;

1. Limiting ALL Cylon model's ability to Resurrect was an act of 'sacrifice'.
2. Ownership of the Hub & by implication the ability to use it was as much there's (the Rebels) as it was Cavil's.
3. The fate of the 2,6&8's not with the Rebels (which is nothing more than a corollary to point 1).
4. They didn't need to blow up the Hub.

Yes, it was. Unless you think that every 268 everywhere had a chance to vote on the whole "no more resurrection for you! No more chance at resurrection for you!" deal instead of Natalie and the models with her on Rebellion. Others have pointed out there were thousands of dissenting Cylons aboard the Hub; they were all destroyed, because they were less important than getting D'Anna and the Final Five.

That was a trade-off; the lives of other Cylons for D'Anna.

It was in the Rebels interest to eliminate resurrection for themselves and their entire race. It is not a sacrifice to give up something that you do not want, nor that you do not have access to any more. I've provided 2 quotes from episode 4.07, which dipshit has flat out failed to read, so I'll highlight the pertinent sections for his education;

No, it wasn't. This batch might think it was, but the other 268s might not. They might have wanted the opportunity to re-take the Hub and retain their immortality; Natalie's band didn't want that. Instead, they condemned every other rebelling model to the same end as the 145s and killed a shipload of boxed allies at the same time.

Again: they not only denied their fellows resurrection, but they killed hundreds of their own lines in the destruction of the Hub. You're the one who says Cylons all think and act the same; isn't killing/knowingly allowing your brothers and sisters to die to save someone else a sacrifice? If, as you say, all other 268s were fine with this, then killing the models on the Hub was still a sacrifice the rebels made in order to fulfill their deal with the Colonials and hurt Cavil.

These guys wanted it destroyed. They lost nothing from their perspective by the Hub's destruction, but gained 'meaning'.

And funny how Natalie didn't mention the Hub until Roslin asked her what they had to trade, isn't it? Exactly - they lost nothing from its destruction, so why should they care about destroying it? For revenge on Cavil and to induce the humans to help them. Once more: Natalie didn't give up the Hub until it was clear the Cylons were expected to offer something.

I will also say this, if it'll help you understand: yes, the rebels came to reason the value of mortality. Yes, they believed it brought them closer to God. This is factual and correct. It is also factual and correct that they willingly traded the Hub for D'Anna. Just because the rebels were high on life doesn't mean they weren't also using it as a bargaining chip or that its wasn't something important that they gave up.

They happily and cheerfully want all of their brethren to be mortal. So again I ask; what sort of sacrifice is it, to have all your dreams come true?

Let's ask all their brothers and sisters who don't share that particular dream, shall we? Let's ask the entire Cylon race - yes, Cavil included - about their slow trudge to extinction and ask if that was no sacrifice at all. Until Caprica got pregnant, the 268s knew that it wasn't just them, but their entire species would go extinct. They effectively committed self-genocide to be with the Five.

Destroying your entire race isn't a sacrifice?

The Hub was under Cavil's control, even if they weren't on their mortality trip, and they did still want resurrection it was denied to them as long as Cavil held the access nodes, for as soon as they found themselves downloading, they'd be promptly boxed. This isn't an argument of 'a product of all their race, so there's too'. They had no need to use it (as shown above), and even if they wanted to, they would never, ever, wake up since Cavil held it.

In other words; it wasn't something that was 'theirs' to give anymore. The only exception to this being Boomer.

Other 268s could have taken the Hub back and used it themselves. Destroying it condemns all those millions of Cylons to death. Natalie's rebels didn't want resurrection; we're in agreement. They realized this after Rebellion drifted, crippled and isolated, outside the resurrection network for who knows how long. There were more rebel models than just those on her ship, though. Cutting them off from resurrection because of her people's epiphany is giving up a lot for the humans help; they're trading the immortal lives of their brothers and sisters for the Final Five. Millions of Sharons, Natalies and Leobens are now going to die and are dying permanently so that D'Anna would be unboxed and the Final Five recognized.

Even if those models popping up in the Hub keep getting boxed, there's still the chance they can be resurrected. Since, you know, one rogue basestar is such a tremendous threat to Cavil, why couldn't they eventually take the boxing facility back and give their fellows the chance to experience mortality?

Rebels were killed when the Hub was destroyed. It was a Cylon installation built for Cylons by Cylons. The rebels may have ceded/lost claim to it, but it they are still Cylons. It was built for them. Just because they don't want it doesn't change the fact that yes (in a general sense; it was for all Cylons), they have a claim to it, even if they don't want it. They could be just as happily mortal away from the network, but they wanted D'Anna. For her, they needed the humans' help. For that, they offered the Hub. Hosting who knows how many boxed 268s.

Furthermore, just because you hold something militarily, doesn't make it yours. After the genocide, did the Colonies belong to the Cylons, or was there just no one to contest that claim? By your logic, New Caprica belonged to the Cylons because they took control of it and the Colonial military abandoned the planet. The planet was denied to them as long as the baseships held it and the people on the ground were under Cylon control (the rebels resurrecting in Cavil-controlled Resurrection ships or the Hub). And since they had around 2000 people still aboard the fleet - according to you, more than enough to re-kindle humanity - they had no need to back to New Caprica except for their morality.

Therefore, New Caprica was not humanity's to re-take. Of course, that's a total load. It was their planet - their homes and ships - and a hostile military force had seized control of those and were imprisoning their people. Just like Cavil and the Hub. So did New Caprica belong to the humans who settled there, or the Cylon occupiers?

In fact, Lee points out that New Caprica isn't theirs anymore, that they can't go back, need to keep moving to find Earth. He's portrayed as being incorrect. So, when the Cylons do something similar - going back to a facility that was previously theirs because they believe it's the right thing to do - it's not theirs.

As mentioned this is covered in point 1, so all I have to say is; too bad for all those other 2,6&8's that the Rebels don't give a shit about them eh? For the Rebels, the destruction of the Hub as a gain not a sacrifice.

You say that the 268s don't care about their fellow models, when we know that isn't the case at all. Remember how Natalie cradled the Six before killing her to even the score after that Six killed a human? How the Eight reached out to Athena as she was dying? How the 268s aboard Rebellion reacted with dismay when they learned Natalie was dead? Clearly, these rebels have no empathy for their own and don't care when they die. It's all about being mortal.

Yes they did. These are religious nut jobs who have clearly lost their mother fucking minds. It was no good just them being mortal ALL their race had to be (pasting the quote again for your pea sized brain to digest);

So, you missed the part where Roslin asks what could compel the humans to help and Natalie says "Vengeance." They were going after Cavil just as much as they were liberating themselves from immortality and offering that same retribution to the humans was a carrot.

So again I ask; what the HELL made the destruction of the Hub and act or restitution or sacrifice on behalf of the Rebels?

The condemnation of millions of their fellow models to death? Again I point out: they were already mortal. They already had their rapture. They didn't need to destroy the Hub to move closer to God; they already had done so. Hell, if all the other 268s believed the same thing, they were forced away from the Resurrection network and now have the same gift - the Hub's destruction was therefore unnessecary, since all the rebels had their chocolate-flavoured mortality.

But they still gave it up in exchange for help unboxing D'Anna. They may have believed that doing so was for the greater good of the Cylon race, but that doesn't mean that they willingly participated in an operation where thousands of their kin would be killed and more would be mortal. Giving up the lives of all those rebel models who were boxed - helpless and would never be able to experience that gift - yes, that's a sacrifice.

And others have pointed out the element of resitution: the destruction of the Hub means the end of the Cylon race. Not without reproduction and they can't do that. The rebels condemned their own species to death.

When you're done ranting and raving over my first sentence you could - oh I don't know - man up to the point; D'anna is still there. Why is she no longer a threat? And I just loved how you just admitted they couldn't even argue on the grounds of diminished responsibility there.

Really, I must have missed the part where she said she was staying behind on Earth.

And if she is still there (we haven't seen her so far and since I specifically avoid most show talk to avoid spoilers, I don't know if Lucy Lawless is going to be in the rest of the season)... maybe she actually learned that force won't work anymore? Like she figured out at the very end of season 4.0 where the other models, Baltar and Lee drove it into her head? Or are you stuck on sitcom personalities where people never, ever change?

"Tonight on Battlestar Galactica: more wacky antics as D'Anna once again takes hostages and points nukes at the fleet! 'Oh, those threes!'"

...and why would I even argue diminished responsbility? Where did I?

You amuse me.

I have said, time and again, that the taking of hostages was a bad thing. I have said the 268s listening to D'Anna and following her was a bad thing. I have not excused them for it. I have not said that they were not to blame, that it was that nasty ol' 3 and t3 alone. I said that they were responsible. I tried to explain why that happened, which you seem hellbent on re-assembling into some argument that makes the 268s hapless and innocent.

Tip: explaining the context for an action is not the same as justifying the action itself.

You truly are quite the character. I find you more endearing with each moment.

This entire series is based upon the fact that a former slave race was able to rise up against it's masters and fight them to a cease fire. After that they disappeared for 40 years and returned with overwhelming fire power and superior technology.

Tell me, if you were Cavil who would you be more worried about; Group 1 who had managed to elude you for 1 year, and when you finally stumble across them have failed to even build permanent housing let alone managed to create and scale of industry that could threaten a WWI era Industrialised Power?

Or Group 2? Who have a ready and able work force that can out last and out perform Group's 1. Who have a demonstrable ability to quickly and competently assign proper resources to rebuilding and reconstruction? Who have already done so in their recent history (reconstruction on Caprica), and have from living memory gone from being nomads on the run for a search of a home away from their former masters and have actually managed to return with the mantle of conquerors? Who know all your static positions and resources? Who have equilevel tech?

Yeah, 'Crown's Magic of Somehow' my ass.

If I was Cavil, I'd be more worried about the species that has the following attributes:Reproduction, Industry and Numbers instead of a group comprised of a few hundred seditionists who cannot replenish their ranks, have no construction capacity and cannot build new attack craft or make good any losses from combat.

But for shits and giggles, I'll debunk your reasoning: the Cylons originally weren't just soldiers, remember? They were industrial builders and construction units - remember how the show says they were used to fight Colonial wars and make Colonial life easier at home? Yeah. When they left, you think they tossed all their industrial units into a sun and went "You know, re-building a civilization is well and good, but let's do it with one crippled warship!" No, that's ridicuolous. They pulled out with everything they had; ships, personnel, experiments (as seen in Razor) and the accompanying infrastructure. Which means that, no, they didn't work from one crippled ship like the rebels are doing.

The Colonials on the other hand, can build. Yes, New Caprica was a refugee camp at first, but they have the ability to construct more and more as they rebuild their infrastructure and population. Meanwhile, the Rebels have one generation to destroy Cavil. Then they die and don't come back. Yes, those are definitely the pre-eminent threat here.

Your magic ass is very amusing. I wish I could frame it and hang it on my wall.

It would be an excellent conversation starter.

Waaaa! Waaa! Waaaa!

So, that's a yes?

As above. What's sad is that if you just ignore these things rather than trying to play the 'mature high card' you wouldn't be making this so fun for me. But since I'm dealing with a moron who flat out fails to see how the destruction of the Hub was no sacrifice you deserve it, and worse.

This is fun for you and yet you're angry at yourself for doing this?

Mmm... cognitive dissonance tastes like taffy. Sweet, sweet taffy.

You want a piece? It's 'Ocean Lime' flavour.

I'm definitely sure that using an appeal to authority with Adama on his reasoning skills is completely retarded since he just empowered a mutiny on his own ship.

By (tactlessly) trying to increase humanity's chance of not being all blowed up, clearly he had it coming. Trying to overcome differences instead of clutching onto his anger forever and ever. How could the mutineers not be in the right?

Also, I note you haven't bothered to rebut that; why would the Cylons need to bother sharing tech with the humans if they planned to betray them? Why would they want to, if they were really these ever-murderous monsters you keep harping on about? Giving the humans any edge whatsoever just makes shafting them even more difficult.

Ah, so the crippled half of it missing Basestar is going to win this fight is it?

It doesn't need to. All it needs is that first strike to cripple an already damaged, overtaxed and undercrewed warship. Then it can turn the refugees into a free-fire exercise. Or didn't you notice that that was precisely what Lee was worried about in the stand-off with D'Anna, that the baseship would open up on the civilians before they could escape or Galactica could destroy it?

So, yes. A crippled baseship is very likely to slaughter a chunk of the human fleet if they had a mind to, by simple reasoning and by the characters' own beliefs in the matter. Even if Galactica survives, the human race just edged even closer to extinction. Which, being the Cylon goal, is something that would be worth one rebel basehip.

Ah, so they can already cause some damage, so it's no risk at all to give them he ability to totally fuck us over? What kind of retard logic is this?

The brand you use in assuming that a sneak attack by Rebellion won't fuck up the humans just as much. It's a lot easier to pull off, a lot less convoluted to plan and a lot less likely to be detected before you carry it out. Open missile bays, launch nukes. There, you've just radioactively sodomized humanity.

"Hey, look. There's the ships that grow their food. There's their one fuel processing vessel. There's the handful of ships that perform most of the repair work!"

Hell, taking out the tylium ship (you know, the sole provider of processed fuel to the entire fleet) and nothing else fucks the humans just as completely.

Demonstrably so. Since it is the dialogue that has defeated your imagined 'plot points' vis-a-vis the Hub and 'Face of the Enemy'.

Where did dialogue indicate that Cylon drives don't spool faster than Colonial one?

This is just painful now. If I ever had denied that Cylon drives weren't superior to Colonial ones, I'm pretty fucking sure I've made it clear by now. My point is making humanities survival completely reliant on genocidal robots is beyond stupid.

Aw, you're so cute when you're trying to cover your tracks and lying about my arguments! You really deserve some taffy. Go on, take a piece.

You said - even in your last post - that there was no reason the Colonials needed Cylon tech. I pointed out four examples where Cylon FTL was used or would have been useful. I did not say you denied they were superior; your entire argument has been based on the theory that human FTL is just fine and dandy, when we have several instances where it wasn't good enough and even when the humans needed to rely on Cylon tech.

Therefore, we come back to the central thesis of this argument:

You're an idiot.

But a funny one!

With a magic ass.

[RedImperator]

On New Caprica: The Cylons were a light year away from the planet when they detected Gina's nuclear suicide bomb. That puts them inside the New Caprica system's Oort Cloud. I think it could be successfully argued that it wasn't dumb luck at all that let the Cylons find New Caprica, because they were right on top of the planet already. If they could detect the nuke through the nebula, they could certainly detect New Caprica's sun, so they had to be aware there was a nearby solar system, and even if they couldn't spot the planets directly, the planets' gravitational effects on the nebular gases would be obvious. I think Doral was lying, just as Cavil lied about the Cylons leaving humans alone. What were they even doing one light year from New Caprica besides looking for the Colonials?

[Crown]

Then my plan of getting you to take your rage out on your own body is halfway to completion. Here's a coupon to Denny's.

Then two for me and none for you, for trolling the troll.

For the third time: I have not argued that the Cylons have not been lucky. I have not argued that New Caprica was due to random chance. I don't know why you keep bringing up New Caprica when I keep agreeing with you about it.

The reason I keep bringing up New Caprica is to drive home the following fact; Colonial FTL tech was sufficient to find them their first refuge (as a complete aside, I was never a fan of New Caprica and thought it was doomed to failure but that's neither here nor there) so why all of a sudden is the ever present Cavil threat used to justify it being installed?

I have, instead, pointed out several examples where the Cylons have found the Colonial fleet without resorting to luck or spies. It is also canonical fact that in these incidents that "allowed humanity to survive" has still had the humans encounter the Cylons on multiple occasions, even when the Cylons aren't being lucky. And that many escapes have been by their skin of their teeth. If you can do something to reduce the chance of lucky encounters and make it even harder for a determined search to find you, why would you not? Or are you foolish to assume that nothing will ever, ever go wrong with the Colonial FTL and the system they have now is good enough? When, canonically, the man in charge of the fucking fleet thinks it isn't!

I'm sorry, no. I do not accept your examples of a Raider flitting around to show that this tech can be scaled up to include a Capital ship. The main point you've tried to impress is that Cylon FTL not only gets you further, but it is also faster to use and implement. You use Scar's maneuvers as proof of this, however why should anyone believe that this can be scaled up to a Capital ship? We've never seen Basestars even remotely demonstrate this ability on many occasions when it would have been pertinent to do so, so why should we just flat out assume that it can?

If me agreeing with you that the Cylons have been lucky, several times, isn't enough what else are you looking for?

Is this a joke? You can't possibly be insinuating that you're agreeing with someone by posing smarmy rhetorical questions.

Proof. Now. You make this claim that D'Anna was leading the Cylons to them, you prove it. The only time we saw her do that was in "Final Cut" to summon two Raiders to get the footage of Athena's presence out to the Cylons.

Proof of what? Proof that D'anna had a way to communicate with a fleet that was shadowing the RTF that was unnoticeable by them? I think you just provided it.

If she was feeding the fleet's location to the Cylons as you seem to be implying, why the fuck did the Cylons lose the Colonials after the Olympic Carrier was shot down? Why wasn't the civilian fleet obliterated in Scattered when Galactica wasn't there to protect them? They didn't have Athena or Hera then; there was no reason to allow the humans to survive. So acting as a spy for the genocidal Cylons, D'Anna of course led her fellows straight to the humans.

Maybe their so called 'plan' (remember that?) didn't include the total destruction of humanity at that point in time (canonical fact; we know that Galactica was a no go zone from the final scene of 'Final Cut')? Who can say? The point of bringing up D'anna (and Final Cut which by the way I'm so glad you remembered), was that we know she was there. We know that she had the means, motive and opportunity to give away the fleets position (for at least up until 'Lay Down Your Burdens'), it's not up to me to explain why the psychotic genocidal robots never finished off humanity.

Or not. Whyever could that be?

I think the answer is simple: you're just an idiot clutching at straws.

But fear not: you are quite the hilarious idiot, you can rest assured of that.

Or Cavil could actually look for them.

Buh buh space is biiiiiiggg!

Well, of course. But Galactica and the fleet have certain requirements. Food, water (remember, for whatever reason they didn't harvest ice from a comet - they had to find a planet with it. While they might be able to be self-sustaining with algae, they still need nutrients to feed it, and they harvest those from planets). That narrows the field considerably. And as Cavil pointed out in The Eye of Jupiter, the time something takes (in that case, finding Earth) doesn't matter to machines. That, and ending "the human pestilence" is pretty high up his list. So, in-universe: they have a determined opponent who wants to exterminate both rebels and humans and is willing to go to any lengths in order to do so.

Then we go back to the point that humanity should never stop running. Which is ridiculous. We both agree on this.

Lucky encounters or not, why would you increase the chance of Cavil locating you when there is a way to make that even less likely?

So how much extra time does the new FTL drives buy the Colonials when they do eventually stop? You've already listed the criteria you feel they need to hit in order to finally 'stop' (or at least stock up), in the series we've seen them come across something that meets this criteria once.

Clearly!

When Galactica gave the wrong jump coordinates to the fleet and had to jump back into a baseship's fire zone for (hours without Gaeta networking the systems; then minutes after doing so) to re-calculate the position of the civilian ship, that was working just fine.

Yes. It was. Oh I know that your point is that with a Cylon computer the re-calculation would have done faster, and no, I'm not disputing this. However the jump was fine. The fleet got the order to jump and did so.

When the Colonials had to jump through a star's corona/plasma storm and lost two ships because it, that was their drives working just fine.

When they needed Cylon tech to retreive both the Arrow of Apollo and the Caprican resistance because the time and distance imposed by Colonial drives made those missions unfeasible, that was those Colonial drives working just fine.

So it allows some extra flexibility in designing missions ... whoopdy-doo! The argument is; since when have they been unable to escape a Cylon ambush because their FTL tech was so 'craptacular'? And - again - we go back to New Caprica.

You had a point? No, you didn't. You screamed, waved your hands, called me a Trekkie and then started whining about me not understanding how technology works.

I said that I fucking agreed with you because, yes, Tyrol said that the Cylons drives were too complex for the humans. Then I said that given time (this is the important part, which you unsuprisingly sailed right past in your Quixotic crusade) the humans would eventually figure them out themselves. Which is a far cry from instantly figuring them out, as you seemed to think I was saying. But why let the facts get in the way of your hysterics?

I say, steady on lad!

I supported my belief that the humans would eventually figure out the Cylon drives, because - and this is the shocker - they've figured out other Cylon technology before, well enough to hook it into their own tech and make it work. That's all.

How is that in any way "hedging my bets"? I said the Cylons were essential to the process at the moment. That's agreeing with you. And at some point in the future (not the next day, week or month) the humans will be able to understand it for themselves.

Your concession is accepted on the argument that installing Cylon FTL tech on their ships makes them dependent on the Rebels to maintain and troubleshoot them.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I don't agree with the latter point, but I understand your reasons for it.

On the former issue: I've covered why not giving the Cylons a voice in the fleet is a bad idea. Again and again I have covered it; it isolates them, increases mistrust between the factions, gives them no incentive to help the humans understand the tech on their own. Taking the drives and giving them nothing of value is in every way a bad idea.

And what do you want from me retard? In my very first post I responded that I agree with this. WHY? In the name of all that is holy, do you still believe me to be arguing against this?

I never said it was a silver bullet! Can you even make it through one response without strawmanning? Just one? I said - repeatedly - that it increases the fleet's chances of survival and decreases the chance of encounters with Cavil's forces, lucky or not. It doesn't magically make the fleet unable to be caught. It doesn't magically find them a home. It makes those things more likely before the fleet starts breaking down. That's all.

And I disagree with this assessment; I acknowledge that it increases their jump range but I don't for a second believe that making an alliance with the genocidal psychobots can be justified for such a marginal increase in capability when you practically castrate yourself to total dependence on them holding up their end of the bargain. There is 'trust' and there is 'insanity'.

No, it doesn't mean they have to run forever. It means that they get enough of a lead that they can stop running sooner and settle down. Instead of having a third of the range they could have and running longer. Aboard ships that haven't been properly serviced in 4 years and are cramped, starved for parts and continually running low of resources.

This has been partially addressed above, but it's important that we deal with it here as well; there is a very real hard limit on how long the RTF can keep running, namely the life cycle of their ships and how close it is to coming to an end (and also the fact that the series ends in 7 episodes). If we both agree that they can not run for ever (which we do), and we both agree that they must find a planet that meets a certain criteria (I guess we could include the Eye of Jupiter as another planet), then the 3x range of the Cylon ship advantage is even less of an advantage.

There is more; where is Cavil now? Is he behind them? Tracking them? How the fuck is he doing this? Most of the previous occurances of Cylon ambushes can be explained by; tracking devices, infiltrators or just the fact that the Cylon's knew certain waypoints they were sure to stop at (Kobol). So how is it a certainty (in universe) that he is going to find them now? The only lead he had was that they were heading for Earth so now ... ?

4 years after the end of WWII, USA was advocating that Japan and Germany be re-armed to prevent communist expansion. Clearly, bitter former enemies becoming allies against a mutual threat is completely unpredecented and will always, forever and ever, backfire. Because you need to nurse that grudge. Never let it go. Never forgive and always make sure your former enemies know how much you absolutely hate them. That's the way to make alliances and move forward.

This has already been refuted. Post war Germany and Japan were protectorates of the Allies. Their entire ability to wage war was completely stripped (especially true in the case of Japan which still lacks it's ability to wage war) and they were forced to make full restitution in repaying their debt to the Allies and participate in the denouncements of the leader's who committed war crimes against humanity (more true of Germany than Japan). What of the above have the Rebels done? Oh yeah, none.

And, to ensure that you don't "misunderstand": I am not saying the slate needs to be wiped clean and Adama needs to enact "Hug a Cylon" day. Just that practically, Rebellion, brings a lot to the fleet. Treating them as something you'd like to scrape off your shoe is not a good plan. Giving them something is beneficial to, and to you and actually helps reduce the chance of betrayal, since both sides can build bridges off that initial framework. If you're on friendly - or at least no openly hostile - terms with a former enemy, they're going to be much less likely to stab you in the back.

And no, this does not mean forgiving, forgetting or anything of the sort. It means working together.

This is asinine. Working together does not mean putting your entire fate in their hands. Roosevelt and Churchill 'worked together' with Stalin, they sure as shit didn't place any of their soldiers' lives in his hands, let alone their entire civilian populations.

Or, you could harbour your grudges for the sake of harbouring your grudges.

Or you could let go of the Ad Hominem and admit that trusting a group of people that have done nothing to earn said trust (and have actually betrayed you since declaring their intention to ally with you) goes a little beyond 'being trusting' and into the 'being idiotic' category.

So... the Colonials don't make a counter-offer to the Cylons original offer and that suddenly makes it a demand, because there was no "exchange of proposals"? What an interesting world you live in. Especially since you've said that you you wouldn't give them what they wanted (which I'm assuming means citizenship instead of anything they want and therefore, would ask for).

If you're not going to give the Cylons representation for their FTL, what do you offer? You remember this - it's the same question you avoided answered before. A promise for "something" at a late date? "Protection" that doesn't mean a damn because since they're not part of your fleet, you're under no obligation to protect them? Are you going to turn your industry towards repairing and re-arming the baseship? If you're going to accept the tech, what would you deem a fair counter-offer?

Also, just so you know: "We won't kill you all" doesn't count. In fact, it's worse then nothing.

Again: the Cylons didn't make a demand. They made an offer. By your own admission, the Colonial fleet has no real need for these drives. Therefore, there's no imperative for the Cylon tech. Therefore, they couldn't be making a demand! They weren't forcing the Colonials to accept them. They weren't the only option humanity had. If there was an another option on the table, one that you see as perfectly fine, then the Cylons can't be extorting the Colonials, because the Colonials have an option that is just as good, if not better! There's no threat and no consequences to saying no.

Or to put this on the level you can understand: You really, really like desert. Can't go without it. Right now, you have pie. I have cake. I say. "Cake is better than pie; I'll give you this cake if you loan me your car."

If you had no dessert at all, then that would be closer to a demand or an attempt to extort you. But you've got pie. You're happy with pie. Cake doesn't do anything for you and I'm a bad driver, so you don't want to loan your car to me, so you say no.

Have I made a demand? Or have I made an offer that you rejected?

And yet you don't have the grace to let typos go. That is hilarious!

You are truly unique.

You done crying? Want a tissue?

My favorite part here is you completely ignoring the fact that if the Eight was the murderous anti-human robot out for her own existence and nothing else as you claimed, she would have killed Gaeta. She wouldn't have confessed to him, tried to get him on her side. She would have killed him just like the others, if all human life meant so little to her.

I guess that is just too darn inconvenient, isn't it?

Stop moving the goalposts here fucknuts. Especially when it's so easy to retrace the argument (I won't go through the bother of reposting the whole fucking exchange); Felix saw what a toaster would do ensure it's own survival i.e. kill 80% of humanity on board a stranded vessel to increase her chances of breathing a little longer. No she did not choose Felix over her own kind, what she did choose was to kill 3 out of 4 humans. How the fuck that she left Gaeta to last does it change what she did?

You mean the black box that Tyrol and his engineers went through in the very first episode of the fourth season and said there was absolutely no information in? Remember Starbuck not having any sensor logs or proof that she'd been to Earth except for her visions? Remember her (or Apollo) saying that they'd already gone over the Viper and there was absolutely nothing useful in it in the episode where they do find Earth?

The black box (actually the radio, receiving a transmission that no other radio in the fleet could) that suddenly had information in it after the Four heard the music again. After the rebels showed up. After Starbuck's visions led her to the Rebels.

How are those dots coming?

We have the following possibilities; Tyrol was mistaken and missed the pertinent information or God did it. The later is a non-answer, the former is probable. You seem to ask a lot of questions but provide no answers, you tell me genius; how did the Rebels do it?

<snip verbose repetition>

Oh, I'm sorry, did you expect me to respond to everything I have already refuted?

Oh, I'll be fair. I'll mock some of the most retard worthy comments;

You say that the 268s don't care about their fellow models, when we know that isn't the case at all. Remember how Natalie cradled the Six before killing her to even the score after that Six killed a human? How the Eight reached out to Athena as she was dying? How the 268s aboard Rebellion reacted with dismay when they learned Natalie was dead? Clearly, these rebels have no empathy for their own and don't care when they die.

Just as I suppose Josef Fritzl cared and loved the daughter he kept locked in his basement and continued to rape until she bred him 8 incestuous (grand)children?

OMG, you are clearly delusional. Lets go over this again;

1. Limiting ALL Cylon model's ability to Resurrect was an act of 'sacrifice'.

It is not a 'sacrifice' when that is exactly the result you want.

2. Ownership of the Hub & by implication the ability to use it was as much there's (the Rebels) as it was Cavil's.

To use the vernacular; 'Possession is nine tenths of the law'. Even flat out ignoring that the Rebels didn't want or need the Hub anymore, they didn't even control it, and couldn't (until you post evidence to the contrary) retake it. It was not 'theirs' in any sense of the word.

3. The fate of the 2,6&8's not with the Rebels (which is nothing more than a corollary to point 1).

See point 1. Sucks to be any 2,6,&8's not part of that Basestar (if any such exists). The destruction of the Hub was viewed as a positive by the Rebels, there fore not a sacrifice.

4. They didn't need to blow up the Hub.

Yes. They. Did. The wanted D'anna and the final 5, the only way to get that was to get her unboxed; the only way to do that was to get help. Ergo, the Hub was not something they could have ever expected to survive. And since you mentioned it, it was not the Hub that sealed the deal for Roslyin and Adama (although it certainly raised eyebrows);

Roslyn: "I gotta hand it to you. If you are a Cylon, that was a great plan. Dangle yet another way to Earth, throw in the Hub, the Final Five, and the real kicker, put the Final Five on the Fleet. Even I couldn't pass that one up."

Jesus this is painful. The Hub was just 'there'.

Really, I must have missed the part where she said she was staying behind on Earth.

Holy crap they left her behind? Serious, now that you mention it, I think I recall something similar! Huh.

And if she is still there (we haven't seen her so far and since I specifically avoid most show talk to avoid spoilers, I don't know if Lucy Lawless is going to be in the rest of the season)... maybe she actually learned that force won't work anymore? Like she figured out at the very end of season 4.0 where the other models, Baltar and Lee drove it into her head? Or are you stuck on sitcom personalities where people never, ever change?

"Tonight on Battlestar Galactica: more wacky antics as D'Anna once again takes hostages and points nukes at the fleet! 'Oh, those threes!'"

Yeah, I mean after executing hostages, she's our kind of gal!

...and why would I even argue diminished responsbility? Where did I?

You amuse me.

Your inability to read and comprehend the simplest things astounds me. Really, it's impressive. Did you take lessons?

I have said, time and again, that the taking of hostages was a bad thing. I have said the 268s listening to D'Anna and following her was a bad thing. I have not excused them for it. I have not said that they were not to blame, that it was that nasty ol' 3 and t3 alone. I said that they were responsible. I tried to explain why that happened, which you seem hellbent on re-assembling into some argument that makes the 268s hapless and innocent.

Then why should we trust beings any beings who; entered into an alliance with us under a lie (they were planning the snatch and grab on D'anna from the start), have held and executed hostages, have threatened the entire fleet with extermination? We can leave all the rest of the history between Cylons and Humans out of it, and still look at the two examples here and this is more than enough to show the complete idiocy that is self evident in affording them even one iota of trust.

Tip: explaining the context for an action is not the same as justifying the action itself.

You truly are quite the character. I find you more endearing with each moment.

I'm quite aware of the context my patronizing self deluded Napoleon, what I fail to understand is how with all the context the above is justified.

If I was Cavil, I'd be more worried about the species that has the following attributes:Reproduction, Industry and Numbers instead of a group comprised of a few hundred seditionists who cannot replenish their ranks, have no construction capacity and cannot build new attack craft or make good any losses from combat.

But for shits and giggles, I'll debunk your reasoning: the Cylons originally weren't just soldiers, remember? They were industrial builders and construction units - remember how the show says they were used to fight Colonial wars and make Colonial life easier at home? Yeah. When they left, you think they tossed all their industrial units into a sun and went "You know, re-building a civilization is well and good, but let's do it with one crippled warship!" No, that's ridicuolous. They pulled out with everything they had; ships, personnel, experiments (as seen in Razor) and the accompanying infrastructure. Which means that, no, they didn't work from one crippled ship like the rebels are doing.

The Colonials on the other hand, can build. Yes, New Caprica was a refugee camp at first, but they have the ability to construct more and more as they rebuild their infrastructure and population. Meanwhile, the Rebels have one generation to destroy Cavil. Then they die and don't come back. Yes, those are definitely the pre-eminent threat here.

Gotta love those 'industrial make your life easier' units that were on clean up duty and reconstruction on Caprica ... oh wait.

Look, lets make this simple; I will happily concede that Centurions weren't the industrial backbone of the Cylon military build up, if you'll happily concede that they can adequately function in these roles until such units can be produced. You see, the thing that is so funny about discussing with a moron like you, is that you happily run ahead of yourself to defeat an argument that you trip over all the little things that destroy your position. Unfortunately, the downside to this one cannot assume any kind of intellectual honesty when dealing with you, one has to - quite simply - spell it all out. Fine, so be it.

What both groups need to do in order to become a threat to Cavil, in agonising detail;

1. Find a suitable planet/home/base of operations.
2. Find resources that can be used to manufacture all sorts nifty little things.
3. Extract these resources.
4. Refine these resources.
5. Temper & treat these resources.
6. Start manufacturing said nifty things.
7. Wage war on Cavil (yeah, I skipped ahead).

Now which group is going to succeed in this? The Rebels, whose workforce only really requires rudimentary shelter, some basic maintenance and energy to keep them powered and who's work force starts growing exponentially when they reach point 6? Or Humanity. Which requires; food, water, more extensive shelter to protect them from the weather, sleep, bathroom breaks, and at the same time we assume that the 49k left of humanity can actually focus on this objective and not go on strike for better working/living conditions, oh and they have to train and breed a fighting force?

Your magic ass is very amusing. I wish I could frame it and hang it on my wall.

It would be an excellent conversation starter.

I'm leaving this in for a later response.

So, that's a yes?

An eight year old that can run circles around you apparently.

This is fun for you and yet you're angry at yourself for doing this?

There are more satisfying and less time consuming ways to have a bit of fun.

Mmm... cognitive dissonance tastes like taffy. Sweet, sweet taffy.

You want a piece? It's 'Ocean Lime' flavour.

No thanks, I got two coupons to Dennys remember?

By (tactlessly) trying to increase humanity's chance of not being all blowed up, clearly he had it coming. Trying to overcome differences instead of clutching onto his anger forever and ever. How could the mutineers not be in the right?

Also, I note you haven't bothered to rebut that; why would the Cylons need to bother sharing tech with the humans if they planned to betray them? Why would they want to, if they were really these ever-murderous monsters you keep harping on about? Giving the humans any edge whatsoever just makes shafting them even more difficult.

Why would genocidal toasters allow humanity to survive for as long as they did? Who can say? We know they had a 'plan', but they seem to have changed their mind, they later amended this plan to forced co-habitation, and now apparently it's being mortal. I don not have to provide any evidence as to why irrational mass murdering genocidal (yes the two mean the same things, but in the hope that the more adjectives I use, the point might actually sink in), all I have to do is show that they aren't any figures to place such trust in. Q.E.D.

It doesn't need to. All it needs is that first strike to cripple an already damaged, overtaxed and undercrewed warship. Then it can turn the refugees into a free-fire exercise. Or didn't you notice that that was precisely what Lee was worried about in the stand-off with D'Anna, that the baseship would open up on the civilians before they could escape or Galactica could destroy it?

So, yes. A crippled baseship is very likely to slaughter a chunk of the human fleet if they had a mind to, by simple reasoning and by the characters' own beliefs in the matter. Even if Galactica survives, the human race just edged even closer to extinction. Which, being the Cylon goal, is something that would be worth one rebel basehip.

Lee Adama; "Which is why we chose to share this information with you <on Crazybuck's Viper actually showing how to get to Earth to D'anna> . We could have jumped away with it, left you behind, but that would have led to another confrontation, another stand off."

Time index around 33.16 Episode 4.10 Revelations

The brand you use in assuming that a sneak attack by Rebellion won't fuck up the humans just as much. It's a lot easier to pull off, a lot less convoluted to plan and a lot less likely to be detected before you carry it out. Open missile bays, launch nukes. There, you've just radioactively sodomized humanity.

"Hey, look. There's the ships that grow their food. There's their one fuel processing vessel. There's the handful of ships that perform most of the repair work!"

Hell, taking out the tylium ship (you know, the sole provider of processed fuel to the entire fleet) and nothing else fucks the humans just as completely.

Oh please retard, we saw what was going on in Revelations, the fleet had ample time to escape, we know that it takes time for Cylons to get their nukes ready to fire, and we know that Galactica can detect that sort of thing happening. You seem to assume that the ability to hold the entire fleet ransom when they want is somehow not a huge power play for the Cylons.

Where did dialogue indicate that Cylon drives don't spool faster than Colonial one?

I fail to see what dialogue I would be refering to when discussing 'The Hub' and 'The Face of the Enemy' that would be applicable to the speed Cylon FTL drives spool u---- oh wait! You're shifting the goalposts again, ooooh you little sneak you!

Aw, you're so cute when you're trying to cover your tracks and lying about my arguments! You really deserve some taffy. Go on, take a piece.

You said - even in your last post - that there was no reason the Colonials needed Cylon tech. I pointed out four examples where Cylon FTL was used or would have been useful.

Useful does not mean 'take at any cost and ignore all risks'.

I did not say you denied they were superior; your entire argument has been based on the theory that human FTL is just fine and dandy, when we have several instances where it wasn't good enough and even when the humans needed to rely on Cylon tech.

With the possible exception on the twin star thing (I'm afraid I don't remember this event, and frankly I can't be bothered to re-watch the episode at this point in time) the Cylon tech they relied on was something that allowed them some tactical flexibility, nothing that would have made the difference between life and death.

Therefore, we come back to the central thesis of this argument:

You're an idiot.

But a funny one!

With a magic ass.

I gotta give props for a good running gag. That made me laugh. Well it didn't actually, it really made me chuckle. Now your post ... that was a laugh out loud moment.

[Crown]

Ah shit, someone delete my post above and leave this one, it contains 2 edits.

Then my plan of getting you to take your rage out on your own body is halfway to completion. Here's a coupon to Denny's.

Then two for me and none for you, for trolling the troll.

For the third time: I have not argued that the Cylons have not been lucky. I have not argued that New Caprica was due to random chance. I don't know why you keep bringing up New Caprica when I keep agreeing with you about it.

The reason I keep bringing up New Caprica is to drive home the following fact; Colonial FTL tech was sufficient to find them their first refuge (as a complete aside, I was never a fan of New Caprica and thought it was doomed to failure but that's neither here nor there) so why all of a sudden is the ever present Cavil threat used to justify it being installed?

I have, instead, pointed out several examples where the Cylons have found the Colonial fleet without resorting to luck or spies. It is also canonical fact that in these incidents that "allowed humanity to survive" has still had the humans encounter the Cylons on multiple occasions, even when the Cylons aren't being lucky. And that many escapes have been by their skin of their teeth. If you can do something to reduce the chance of lucky encounters and make it even harder for a determined search to find you, why would you not? Or are you foolish to assume that nothing will ever, ever go wrong with the Colonial FTL and the system they have now is good enough? When, canonically, the man in charge of the fucking fleet thinks it isn't!

I'm sorry, no. I do not accept your examples of a Raider flitting around to show that this tech can be scaled up to include a Capital ship. The main point you've tried to impress is that Cylon FTL not only gets you further, but it is also faster to use and implement. You use Scar's maneuvers as proof of this, however why should anyone believe that this can be scaled up to a Capital ship? We've never seen Basestars even remotely demonstrate this ability on many occasions when it would have been pertinent to do so, so why should we just flat out assume that it can?

If me agreeing with you that the Cylons have been lucky, several times, isn't enough what else are you looking for?

Is this a joke? You can't possibly be insinuating that you're agreeing with someone by posing smarmy rhetorical questions.

Proof. Now. You make this claim that D'Anna was leading the Cylons to them, you prove it. The only time we saw her do that was in "Final Cut" to summon two Raiders to get the footage of Athena's presence out to the Cylons.

Proof of what? Proof that D'anna had a way to communicate with a fleet that was shadowing the RTF that was unnoticeable by them? I think you just provided it.

If she was feeding the fleet's location to the Cylons as you seem to be implying, why the fuck did the Cylons lose the Colonials after the Olympic Carrier was shot down? Why wasn't the civilian fleet obliterated in Scattered when Galactica wasn't there to protect them? They didn't have Athena or Hera then; there was no reason to allow the humans to survive. So acting as a spy for the genocidal Cylons, D'Anna of course led her fellows straight to the humans.

Maybe their so called 'plan' (remember that?) didn't include the total destruction of humanity at that point in time (canonical fact; we know that Galactica was a no go zone from the final scene of 'Final Cut')? Who can say? The point of bringing up D'anna (and Final Cut which by the way I'm so glad you remembered), was that we know she was there. We know that she had the means, motive and opportunity to give away the fleets position (for at least up until 'Lay Down Your Burdens'), it's not up to me to explain why the psychotic genocidal robots never finished off humanity.

Or not. Whyever could that be?

I think the answer is simple: you're just an idiot clutching at straws.

But fear not: you are quite the hilarious idiot, you can rest assured of that.

Or Cavil could actually look for them.

Buh buh space is biiiiiiggg!

Well, of course. But Galactica and the fleet have certain requirements. Food, water (remember, for whatever reason they didn't harvest ice from a comet - they had to find a planet with it. While they might be able to be self-sustaining with algae, they still need nutrients to feed it, and they harvest those from planets). That narrows the field considerably. And as Cavil pointed out in The Eye of Jupiter, the time something takes (in that case, finding Earth) doesn't matter to machines. That, and ending "the human pestilence" is pretty high up his list. So, in-universe: they have a determined opponent who wants to exterminate both rebels and humans and is willing to go to any lengths in order to do so.

Then we go back to the point that humanity should never stop running. Which is ridiculous. We both agree on this.

Lucky encounters or not, why would you increase the chance of Cavil locating you when there is a way to make that even less likely?

So how much extra time does the new FTL drives buy the Colonials when they do eventually stop? You've already listed the criteria you feel they need to hit in order to finally 'stop' (or at least stock up), in the series we've seen them come across something that meets this criteria once.

Clearly!

When Galactica gave the wrong jump coordinates to the fleet and had to jump back into a baseship's fire zone for (hours without Gaeta networking the systems; then minutes after doing so) to re-calculate the position of the civilian ship, that was working just fine.

Yes. It was. Oh I know that your point is that with a Cylon computer the re-calculation would have done faster, and no, I'm not disputing this. However the jump was fine. The fleet got the order to jump and did so.

When the Colonials had to jump through a star's corona/plasma storm and lost two ships because it, that was their drives working just fine.

When they needed Cylon tech to retreive both the Arrow of Apollo and the Caprican resistance because the time and distance imposed by Colonial drives made those missions unfeasible, that was those Colonial drives working just fine.

So it allows some extra flexibility in designing missions ... whoopdy-doo! The argument is; since when have they been unable to escape a Cylon ambush because their FTL tech was so 'craptacular'? And - again - we go back to New Caprica.

You had a point? No, you didn't. You screamed, waved your hands, called me a Trekkie and then started whining about me not understanding how technology works.

I said that I fucking agreed with you because, yes, Tyrol said that the Cylons drives were too complex for the humans. Then I said that given time (this is the important part, which you unsuprisingly sailed right past in your Quixotic crusade) the humans would eventually figure them out themselves. Which is a far cry from instantly figuring them out, as you seemed to think I was saying. But why let the facts get in the way of your hysterics?

I say, steady on lad!

I supported my belief that the humans would eventually figure out the Cylon drives, because - and this is the shocker - they've figured out other Cylon technology before, well enough to hook it into their own tech and make it work. That's all.

How is that in any way "hedging my bets"? I said the Cylons were essential to the process at the moment. That's agreeing with you. And at some point in the future (not the next day, week or month) the humans will be able to understand it for themselves.

Your concession is accepted on the argument that installing Cylon FTL tech on their ships makes them dependent on the Rebels to maintain and troubleshoot them.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I don't agree with the latter point, but I understand your reasons for it.

On the former issue: I've covered why not giving the Cylons a voice in the fleet is a bad idea. Again and again I have covered it; it isolates them, increases mistrust between the factions, gives them no incentive to help the humans understand the tech on their own. Taking the drives and giving them nothing of value is in every way a bad idea.

And what do you want from me retard? In my very first post I responded that I agree with this. WHY? In the name of all that is holy, do you still believe me to be arguing against this?

I never said it was a silver bullet! Can you even make it through one response without strawmanning? Just one? I said - repeatedly - that it increases the fleet's chances of survival and decreases the chance of encounters with Cavil's forces, lucky or not. It doesn't magically make the fleet unable to be caught. It doesn't magically find them a home. It makes those things more likely before the fleet starts breaking down. That's all.

And I disagree with this assessment; I acknowledge that it increases their jump range but I don't for a second believe that making an alliance with the genocidal psychobots can be justified for such a marginal increase in capability when you practically castrate yourself to total dependence on them holding up their end of the bargain. There is 'trust' and there is 'insanity'.

No, it doesn't mean they have to run forever. It means that they get enough of a lead that they can stop running sooner and settle down. Instead of having a third of the range they could have and running longer. Aboard ships that haven't been properly serviced in 4 years and are cramped, starved for parts and continually running low of resources.

This has been partially addressed above, but it's important that we deal with it here as well; there is a very real hard limit on how long the RTF can keep running, namely the life cycle of their ships and how close it is to coming to an end (and also the fact that the series ends in 7 episodes). If we both agree that they can not run for ever (which we do), and we both agree that they must find a planet that meets a certain criteria (I guess we could include the Eye of Jupiter as another planet), then the 3x range of the Cylon ship advantage is even less of an advantage.

There is more; where is Cavil now? Is he behind them? Tracking them? How the fuck is he doing this? Most of the previous occurances of Cylon ambushes can be explained by; tracking devices, infiltrators or just the fact that the Cylon's knew certain waypoints they were sure to stop at (Kobol). So how is it a certainty (in universe) that he is going to find them now? The only lead he had was that they were heading for Earth so now ... ?

4 years after the end of WWII, USA was advocating that Japan and Germany be re-armed to prevent communist expansion. Clearly, bitter former enemies becoming allies against a mutual threat is completely unpredecented and will always, forever and ever, backfire. Because you need to nurse that grudge. Never let it go. Never forgive and always make sure your former enemies know how much you absolutely hate them. That's the way to make alliances and move forward.

This has already been refuted. Post war Germany and Japan were protectorates of the Allies. Their entire ability to wage war was completely stripped (especially true in the case of Japan which still lacks it's ability to wage war) and they were forced to make full restitution in repaying their debt to the Allies and participate in the denouncements of the leader's who committed war crimes against humanity (more true of Germany than Japan). What of the above have the Rebels done? Oh yeah, none.

And, to ensure that you don't "misunderstand": I am not saying the slate needs to be wiped clean and Adama needs to enact "Hug a Cylon" day. Just that practically, Rebellion, brings a lot to the fleet. Treating them as something you'd like to scrape off your shoe is not a good plan. Giving them something is beneficial to, and to you and actually helps reduce the chance of betrayal, since both sides can build bridges off that initial framework. If you're on friendly - or at least no openly hostile - terms with a former enemy, they're going to be much less likely to stab you in the back.

And no, this does not mean forgiving, forgetting or anything of the sort. It means working together.

This is asinine. Working together does not mean putting your entire fate in their hands. Roosevelt and Churchill 'worked together' with Stalin, they sure as shit didn't place any of their soldiers' lives in his hands, let alone their entire civilian populations.

Or, you could harbour your grudges for the sake of harbouring your grudges.

Or you could let go of the Ad Hominem and admit that trusting a group of people that have done nothing to earn said trust (and have actually betrayed you since declaring their intention to ally with you) goes a little beyond 'being trusting' and into the 'being idiotic' category.

So... the Colonials don't make a counter-offer to the Cylons original offer and that suddenly makes it a demand, because there was no "exchange of proposals"? What an interesting world you live in. Especially since you've said that you you wouldn't give them what they wanted (which I'm assuming means citizenship instead of anything they want and therefore, would ask for).

If you're not going to give the Cylons representation for their FTL, what do you offer? You remember this - it's the same question you avoided answered before. A promise for "something" at a late date? "Protection" that doesn't mean a damn because since they're not part of your fleet, you're under no obligation to protect them? Are you going to turn your industry towards repairing and re-arming the baseship? If you're going to accept the tech, what would you deem a fair counter-offer?

Also, just so you know: "We won't kill you all" doesn't count. In fact, it's worse then nothing.

Again: the Cylons didn't make a demand. They made an offer. By your own admission, the Colonial fleet has no real need for these drives. Therefore, there's no imperative for the Cylon tech. Therefore, they couldn't be making a demand! They weren't forcing the Colonials to accept them. They weren't the only option humanity had. If there was an another option on the table, one that you see as perfectly fine, then the Cylons can't be extorting the Colonials, because the Colonials have an option that is just as good, if not better! There's no threat and no consequences to saying no.

Or to put this on the level you can understand: You really, really like desert. Can't go without it. Right now, you have pie. I have cake. I say. "Cake is better than pie; I'll give you this cake if you loan me your car."

If you had no dessert at all, then that would be closer to a demand or an attempt to extort you. But you've got pie. You're happy with pie. Cake doesn't do anything for you and I'm a bad driver, so you don't want to loan your car to me, so you say no.

Have I made a demand? Or have I made an offer that you rejected?

Edit ::

The scene in question;

Felix; What's the catch? Because, there is a catch right? Former Chief.
Tyrol; We want to be part of the fleet. Not just along the for the ride. Full members, citizens, seat at the Quorom, the whole thing.
Tigh; What? You're insane!
Tyrol; NOT NEGOTIABLE

...

And yet you don't have the grace to let typos go. That is hilarious!

You are truly unique.

You done crying? Want a tissue?

My favorite part here is you completely ignoring the fact that if the Eight was the murderous anti-human robot out for her own existence and nothing else as you claimed, she would have killed Gaeta. She wouldn't have confessed to him, tried to get him on her side. She would have killed him just like the others, if all human life meant so little to her.

I guess that is just too darn inconvenient, isn't it?

Stop moving the goalposts here fucknuts. Especially when it's so easy to retrace the argument (I won't go through the bother of reposting the whole fucking exchange); Felix saw what a toaster would do ensure it's own survival i.e. kill 80% of humanity on board a stranded vessel to increase her chances of breathing a little longer. No she did not choose Felix over her own kind, what she did choose was to kill 3 out of 4 humans. How the fuck that she left Gaeta to last does it change what she did?

You mean the black box that Tyrol and his engineers went through in the very first episode of the fourth season and said there was absolutely no information in? Remember Starbuck not having any sensor logs or proof that she'd been to Earth except for her visions? Remember her (or Apollo) saying that they'd already gone over the Viper and there was absolutely nothing useful in it in the episode where they do find Earth?

The black box (actually the radio, receiving a transmission that no other radio in the fleet could) that suddenly had information in it after the Four heard the music again. After the rebels showed up. After Starbuck's visions led her to the Rebels.

How are those dots coming?

We have the following possibilities; Tyrol was mistaken and missed the pertinent information or God did it. The later is a non-answer, the former is probable. You seem to ask a lot of questions but provide no answers, you tell me genius; how did the Rebels do it?

<snip verbose repetition>

Oh, I'm sorry, did you expect me to respond to everything I have already refuted?

Oh, I'll be fair. I'll mock some of the most retard worthy comments;

You say that the 268s don't care about their fellow models, when we know that isn't the case at all. Remember how Natalie cradled the Six before killing her to even the score after that Six killed a human? How the Eight reached out to Athena as she was dying? How the 268s aboard Rebellion reacted with dismay when they learned Natalie was dead? Clearly, these rebels have no empathy for their own and don't care when they die.

Just as I suppose Josef Fritzl cared and loved the daughter he kept locked in his basement and continued to rape until she bred him 8 incestuous (grand)children?

OMG, you are clearly delusional. Lets go over this again;

1. Limiting ALL Cylon model's ability to Resurrect was an act of 'sacrifice'.

It is not a 'sacrifice' when that is exactly the result you want.

2. Ownership of the Hub & by implication the ability to use it was as much there's (the Rebels) as it was Cavil's.

To use the vernacular; 'Possession is nine tenths of the law'. Even flat out ignoring that the Rebels didn't want or need the Hub anymore, they didn't even control it, and couldn't (until you post evidence to the contrary) retake it. It was not 'theirs' in any sense of the word.

3. The fate of the 2,6&8's not with the Rebels (which is nothing more than a corollary to point 1).

See point 1. Sucks to be any 2,6,&8's not part of that Basestar (if any such exists). The destruction of the Hub was viewed as a positive by the Rebels, there fore not a sacrifice.

4. They didn't need to blow up the Hub.

Yes. They. Did. The wanted D'anna and the final 5, the only way to get that was to get her unboxed; the only way to do that was to get help. Ergo, the Hub was not something they could have ever expected to survive. And since you mentioned it, it was not the Hub that sealed the deal for Roslyin and Adama (although it certainly raised eyebrows);

Roslyn: "I gotta hand it to you. If you are a Cylon, that was a great plan. Dangle yet another way to Earth, throw in the Hub, the Final Five, and the real kicker, put the Final Five on the Fleet. Even I couldn't pass that one up."

Jesus this is painful. The Hub was just 'there'.

Really, I must have missed the part where she said she was staying behind on Earth.

Holy crap they left her behind? Serious, now that you mention it, I think I recall something similar! Huh.

EDIT :: Just watched it, looks like she did stay behind, alive no less. Anyone want to take bets on how Cavil is gonna find them?

And if she is still there (we haven't seen her so far and since I specifically avoid most show talk to avoid spoilers, I don't know if Lucy Lawless is going to be in the rest of the season)... maybe she actually learned that force won't work anymore? Like she figured out at the very end of season 4.0 where the other models, Baltar and Lee drove it into her head? Or are you stuck on sitcom personalities where people never, ever change?

"Tonight on Battlestar Galactica: more wacky antics as D'Anna once again takes hostages and points nukes at the fleet! 'Oh, those threes!'"

Yeah, I mean after executing hostages, she's our kind of gal!

...and why would I even argue diminished responsbility? Where did I?

You amuse me.

Your inability to read and comprehend the simplest things astounds me. Really, it's impressive. Did you take lessons?

I have said, time and again, that the taking of hostages was a bad thing. I have said the 268s listening to D'Anna and following her was a bad thing. I have not excused them for it. I have not said that they were not to blame, that it was that nasty ol' 3 and t3 alone. I said that they were responsible. I tried to explain why that happened, which you seem hellbent on re-assembling into some argument that makes the 268s hapless and innocent.

Then why should we trust beings any beings who; entered into an alliance with us under a lie (they were planning the snatch and grab on D'anna from the start), have held and executed hostages, have threatened the entire fleet with extermination? We can leave all the rest of the history between Cylons and Humans out of it, and still look at the two examples here and this is more than enough to show the complete idiocy that is self evident in affording them even one iota of trust.

Tip: explaining the context for an action is not the same as justifying the action itself.

You truly are quite the character. I find you more endearing with each moment.

I'm quite aware of the context my patronizing self deluded Napoleon, what I fail to understand is how with all the context the above is justified.

If I was Cavil, I'd be more worried about the species that has the following attributes:Reproduction, Industry and Numbers instead of a group comprised of a few hundred seditionists who cannot replenish their ranks, have no construction capacity and cannot build new attack craft or make good any losses from combat.

But for shits and giggles, I'll debunk your reasoning: the Cylons originally weren't just soldiers, remember? They were industrial builders and construction units - remember how the show says they were used to fight Colonial wars and make Colonial life easier at home? Yeah. When they left, you think they tossed all their industrial units into a sun and went "You know, re-building a civilization is well and good, but let's do it with one crippled warship!" No, that's ridicuolous. They pulled out with everything they had; ships, personnel, experiments (as seen in Razor) and the accompanying infrastructure. Which means that, no, they didn't work from one crippled ship like the rebels are doing.

The Colonials on the other hand, can build. Yes, New Caprica was a refugee camp at first, but they have the ability to construct more and more as they rebuild their infrastructure and population. Meanwhile, the Rebels have one generation to destroy Cavil. Then they die and don't come back. Yes, those are definitely the pre-eminent threat here.

Gotta love those 'industrial make your life easier' units that were on clean up duty and reconstruction on Caprica ... oh wait.

Look, lets make this simple; I will happily concede that Centurions weren't the industrial backbone of the Cylon military build up, if you'll happily concede that they can adequately function in these roles until such units can be produced. You see, the thing that is so funny about discussing with a moron like you, is that you happily run ahead of yourself to defeat an argument that you trip over all the little things that destroy your position. Unfortunately, the downside to this one cannot assume any kind of intellectual honesty when dealing with you, one has to - quite simply - spell it all out. Fine, so be it.

What both groups need to do in order to become a threat to Cavil, in agonising detail;

1. Find a suitable planet/home/base of operations.
2. Find resources that can be used to manufacture all sorts nifty little things.
3. Extract these resources.
4. Refine these resources.
5. Temper & treat these resources.
6. Start manufacturing said nifty things.
7. Wage war on Cavil (yeah, I skipped ahead).

Now which group is going to succeed in this? The Rebels, whose workforce only really requires rudimentary shelter, some basic maintenance and energy to keep them powered and who's work force starts growing exponentially when they reach point 6? Or Humanity. Which requires; food, water, more extensive shelter to protect them from the weather, sleep, bathroom breaks, and at the same time we assume that the 49k left of humanity can actually focus on this objective and not go on strike for better working/living conditions, oh and they have to train and breed a fighting force?

Your magic ass is very amusing. I wish I could frame it and hang it on my wall.

It would be an excellent conversation starter.

I'm leaving this in for a later response.

So, that's a yes?

An eight year old that can run circles around you apparently.

This is fun for you and yet you're angry at yourself for doing this?

There are more satisfying and less time consuming ways to have a bit of fun.

Mmm... cognitive dissonance tastes like taffy. Sweet, sweet taffy.

You want a piece? It's 'Ocean Lime' flavour.

No thanks, I got two coupons to Dennys remember?

By (tactlessly) trying to increase humanity's chance of not being all blowed up, clearly he had it coming. Trying to overcome differences instead of clutching onto his anger forever and ever. How could the mutineers not be in the right?

Also, I note you haven't bothered to rebut that; why would the Cylons need to bother sharing tech with the humans if they planned to betray them? Why would they want to, if they were really these ever-murderous monsters you keep harping on about? Giving the humans any edge whatsoever just makes shafting them even more difficult.

Why would genocidal toasters allow humanity to survive for as long as they did? Who can say? We know they had a 'plan', but they seem to have changed their mind, they later amended this plan to forced co-habitation, and now apparently it's being mortal. I don not have to provide any evidence as to why irrational mass murdering genocidal (yes the two mean the same things, but in the hope that the more adjectives I use, the point might actually sink in), all I have to do is show that they aren't any figures to place such trust in. Q.E.D.

It doesn't need to. All it needs is that first strike to cripple an already damaged, overtaxed and undercrewed warship. Then it can turn the refugees into a free-fire exercise. Or didn't you notice that that was precisely what Lee was worried about in the stand-off with D'Anna, that the baseship would open up on the civilians before they could escape or Galactica could destroy it?

So, yes. A crippled baseship is very likely to slaughter a chunk of the human fleet if they had a mind to, by simple reasoning and by the characters' own beliefs in the matter. Even if Galactica survives, the human race just edged even closer to extinction. Which, being the Cylon goal, is something that would be worth one rebel basehip.

Lee Adama; "Which is why we chose to share this information with you <on Crazybuck's Viper actually showing how to get to Earth to D'anna> . We could have jumped away with it, left you behind, but that would have led to another confrontation, another stand off."

Time index around 33.16 Episode 4.10 Revelations

The brand you use in assuming that a sneak attack by Rebellion won't fuck up the humans just as much. It's a lot easier to pull off, a lot less convoluted to plan and a lot less likely to be detected before you carry it out. Open missile bays, launch nukes. There, you've just radioactively sodomized humanity.

"Hey, look. There's the ships that grow their food. There's their one fuel processing vessel. There's the handful of ships that perform most of the repair work!"

Hell, taking out the tylium ship (you know, the sole provider of processed fuel to the entire fleet) and nothing else fucks the humans just as completely.

Oh please retard, we saw what was going on in Revelations, the fleet had ample time to escape, we know that it takes time for Cylons to get their nukes ready to fire, and we know that Galactica can detect that sort of thing happening. You seem to assume that the ability to hold the entire fleet ransom when they want is somehow not a huge power play for the Cylons.

Where did dialogue indicate that Cylon drives don't spool faster than Colonial one?

I fail to see what dialogue I would be refering to when discussing 'The Hub' and 'The Face of the Enemy' that would be applicable to the speed Cylon FTL drives spool u---- oh wait! You're shifting the goalposts again, ooooh you little sneak you!

Aw, you're so cute when you're trying to cover your tracks and lying about my arguments! You really deserve some taffy. Go on, take a piece.

You said - even in your last post - that there was no reason the Colonials needed Cylon tech. I pointed out four examples where Cylon FTL was used or would have been useful.

Useful does not mean 'take at any cost and ignore all risks'.

I did not say you denied they were superior; your entire argument has been based on the theory that human FTL is just fine and dandy, when we have several instances where it wasn't good enough and even when the humans needed to rely on Cylon tech.

With the possible exception on the twin star thing (I'm afraid I don't remember this event, and frankly I can't be bothered to re-watch the episode at this point in time) the Cylon tech they relied on was something that allowed them some tactical flexibility, nothing that would have made the difference between life and death.

Therefore, we come back to the central thesis of this argument:

You're an idiot.

But a funny one!

With a magic ass.

I gotta give props for a good running gag. That made me laugh. Well it didn't actually, it really made me chuckle. Now your post ... that was a laugh out loud moment.

[xerex]

good lord. i think its time a mod took a pair of shears to this thread.