Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

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Surlethe
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Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Surlethe »

So today, I had a column published in the student paper tearing into my uni's student "truth movement" group and their take on autism; some of the comments are pretty funny:
I stopped reading after the first paragraph...Neal is having a kid? Seriously? Your mug shot makes you look like McLovin!

Is this whole story really a "conspiracy" to tell Ball State that you got laid?
No, the preponderance of evidence is based on conclusions derived from government organizations that promote the use of vaccinations - hardly a source of unbiased information.

Furthermore, while there may not be any conclusive evidence of a link between vaccinations and autism, the government has awarded financial compensation to families with children that have developed autism within a short time of being vaccinated.
...
There may not be concrete evidence linking vaccinations to autism, but nor is there solid evidence to refute the claim. Therefore, I believe it to be in the best interest to hold off on vaccinating children until several years after birth - an option that a growing number of physicians are also supporting.
As a member of the BSU Truth Movement, I am offended by being labeled as a conspiracy theorist. I believe in finding the truth and seeking out other opinions and views. I do not believe everything someone tells me, even if it is a government-funded agency. If you believe the government is always right, that's your call. There are very specific reasons why I would want to learn more about vaccine safety and maintain my skepticism that these departments have our best interest at heart. In 2006 two representatives from Florida and NY introduced a bill that would take away vaccine safety research from the CDC. Why? Conflict of interest with the pharmaceutical industry including those companies that make vaccines. When the CDC has the power to require all children receive certain vaccines before beginning school, there is a ton of money involved. Several senators and other representatives agreed that the CDC is not in a place to conduct unbiased studies. The FDA has known foods containing high-fructose corn syrup also have mercury. Renee Dufault conducted the study in 2005 and quit last year, bringing her results into the open. I don't know about you, but I'll take recommendations by government agencies with a grain of salt and think for myself.
Neal did you know that every person has their own opinion? But when the minority think something different than the majority they are labeled conspiracy theorists or just plain nuts. I choose not to trust the government that kills thousands of people a year because they say something is safe.

The one example that everyone knows about is cigarettes.
I also got two upset emails:
The president of my uni's 'Truth Movement' wrote:Neal, the fact that you refer to the behavior of someone you've never met as "illogical" and "just plain dumb" is sad. As is your lack of research.

You’re citing the same people who attended the secret Simpsonwood, Georgia meeting with vaccine manufacturers (this is a fact, and thanks to the freedom of information act, I have a transcript) and proclaimed in 2001 that the evidence was clear there was a link.

More importantly however, you wasted your time researching for a link between autism and thimerosal which is useless because that’s not even our position. You assumed it was because it was falsely reported in your newspaper (reporter error) that was our position. Our position is that there is a link between thimerosal and ALZHEIMERS and we have plenty of documents to prove there is. There is also a lot of evidence to suggest a link with autism, but that’s more of an issue for children, not the college population. You would know this too if you did your research.

Also, if the same regulatory agencies you apparently take as the gospel declared in June 1999 (the Center for Disease Control, Public Health Services (PHS), and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) ) that thimerosal should be removed from vaccines “as soon as possible” then why is suggesting that it be removed from Ball State such a radical idea?
As a new mother I too found it hard to believe that something that had been used for years to save lives could be responsible for the neurological disorders mentioned. I knew it was my job to protect my child and there was no compromising that. The doctor told me the fever was normal after my daughter received her vaccines. Even though she was still sick months later I felt good that I had made the right choice. I remember the last time I took her in for her routine check up. She was 18 months old. She wasn’t sick, no ear or throat infection like she had always had. That night she developed the same fever she always did. And she fell into the same sickness for weeks like she did after every vaccination appointment. This time was a little different. It had been two months and she was still sick. She had stopped talking, smiling, and stared at nothing as if she could see things we couldn’t. The doctor said she was delayed. It didn’t make sense to me. How can you be delayed if you once talked, played with your friends, looked when your name was called, or smiled back. It was gone, my daughter was gone. I asked the doctor since it was such a coincidence if the vaccines had anything to do with it? I don’t think anyone has ever made me feel stupider in my life. I should have felt stupid I was questioning a PH.D for goodness sakes. A couple months later my daughter was diagnosed with Autism. What happened? I watched before my very eyes her turn into someone in pain, confused, injured. I had no suspects. Neurologist said she was born with it. Doctor said it was maybe something I did while pregnant. What? Read too many baby books? For months I took the focus off what happened and redirected it to how to fix it. But I soon realized I needed to know what I was treating in order to help her. After I looked over all her medical records I sat there on the kitchen table hoping to unconvinced myself. She was first generation autistic. But the road to a vaccine injury, which all signs pointed to would be dangerous, painful and require more fight, emotion and determination than at that time I felt I could give. On that kitchen table I picked my head up and told myself I was the only voice she had left and I wasn’t going to let that one be silenced either.

I spent days on the CDC website. Cutting and Pasting ingredients to see if any of them had side effects similar to those of my daughters. I threw up after the first day from the emotional stress. In one day she received double the amount of phenoxyethanol (anti-freeze), aluminum, formaldehyde, and triple the mercury allowed for a 250 lb man. All those ingredients were classified under the top ten most harmful toxins to the ecosystem and were all classified as neurotoxins. She had received DNA from monkeys and aborted babies. The DNA could have contained who knows what and had the ability to alter hers. She had received over 9 different strands of viruses and disease. Her immune system which if judging by the amount of sickness from birth wasn’t very strong was now responsible for fighting off all of this, all at the same time.

One of the scariest days came when I gave birth to my son. We had to decide the most haunting decision (either way it’s made) that more and more parents are facing:

‘Was it fair to vaccinate one and not the other? If not, to which child was it not fair? The one who was saddled with behavioral challenges that may have been caused by vaccines, or the one who would be forever susceptible to diseases that could kill him?’

Ru Rico

http://www.knowingjulia.com
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Hawkwings »

This part cracks me up:
The one example that everyone knows about is cigarettes.
So he's saying that the government is telling people cigarettes are safe?

In any case, nice job getting your article out there. Is there any place we could read what you wrote?
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

"my daughter was gone".

Jesus christ, these people are sickening. I want to slap that woman right now--how can she say such a thing? How can she !? It makes me trembling, it really does, and for all I know by experience that parents treat their children like that all the time--how can she? She's still your daughter, lady, you stupid bint, and she might well grow up to be far more beautiful and productive in this world than you ever will, and possibly happier. If you don't ruin her first with your misguided obsession with her wholeness. Silent and withdrawn children are not gone, they just need constant but respectful attention to teach them how to emote in ways that their brain can process. Motherhood is a precious gift and a severe burden, and you just cast it aside the moment your daughter has mental problems?

Nitram is really, truly, right, these people are sick beyond reason, treating their children like monsters, or devils that have taken over their bodies.

"my daughter was gone". Ugh.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by SirNitram »

At least she's not saying this in front of the child.

After all, we're soulless Changelings, fae freaks left behind when something took their children away. Who cares what you say in our presense.

But yes. I'm sorry you had to see this, Surlethe, but thanks for taking up the cause.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Stark »

Fascinating; when your child demonstrates a developmental disorder, immediately engage in amateur detective work to find who to blame after taking yourself off the list of suspects. Also, the child was fine until 18 months, honest!

Jesus fuck. Is this the current generation of parents? 'I demand a perfect child and if I don't get one it's YOUR FAULT'?
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Duckie »

So I'm confused, do all vaccines contain aborted baby DNA (?!), mercury, monkey DNA, aluminium, etc?

I thought they contained, like, crippled viruses.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by OsirisLord »

Duckie wrote:So I'm confused, do all vaccines contain aborted baby DNA (?!), mercury, monkey DNA, aluminium, etc?

I thought they contained, like, crippled viruses.
Some vaccines use the preservative thimersol, which is nearly 49.6% mercury by weight. A typical vaccine that used thimersol would have an estimated 15-17 micrograms of methlymercury in it, which is roughly the same amount found in caned fish.

So should we ban Chicken of the Sea as well?
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Duckie »

For one, California removed all the Thiomersol from their vaccines a decade ago because of the stink, yet autism levels are growing in California the same as any other place. So is it the Monkey and Aborted Baby DNA causing the damage?

How does the soul of an unborn baby being spliced into yours protect you from disease? Necromancy?
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by PeZook »

As a member of the BSU Truth Movement, I am offended by being labeled as a conspiracy theorist.
Ah...they all are :D

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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Kodiak »

Duckie wrote:For one, California removed all the Thiomersol from their vaccines a decade ago because of the stink, yet autism levels are growing in California the same as any other place. So is it the Monkey and Aborted Baby DNA causing the damage?

How does the soul of an unborn baby being spliced into yours protect you from disease? Necromancy?
You'd think that once a monkey develops autism that they would decline to include their DNA into a vaccine :lol:

Seriously though, doesn't she know that people take in cow, chicken, and fish DNA into their body on a regular basis? DNA in vaccines has about as much probability of messing you up as the government has of developing a way to fuse adamantium to your bones :roll: It drives me nuts to hear people talk about how their kids were gone "after the vaccine". Before there was a bandwagon to jump onto autism always happened after something, albeit a traumatic experience, a bad fever, etc. It's in human nature to look for a scapegoat when things beyond our control afflict us, and I'm tired of science taking the blame.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by PainRack »

That Knowingjulia website appears to be a bit........ scary. I'm not a qualified nutritionist or pediatrician and the like, but her arguments that removing milk from a diet= lesser tantrums and poops is................ a tad disturbing.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Twoyboy »

Surlethe wrote:
As a new mother I too found it hard to believe that something that had been used for years to save lives could be responsible for the neurological disorders mentioned. I knew it was my job to protect my child and there was no compromising that. The doctor told me the fever was normal after my daughter received her vaccines. Even though she was still sick months later I felt good that I had made the right choice. I remember the last time I took her in for her routine check up. She was 18 months old. She wasn’t sick, no ear or throat infection like she had always had. That night she developed the same fever she always did. And she fell into the same sickness for weeks like she did after every vaccination appointment. This time was a little different. It had been two months and she was still sick. She had stopped talking, smiling, and stared at nothing as if she could see things we couldn’t. The doctor said she was delayed. It didn’t make sense to me. How can you be delayed if you once talked, played with your friends, looked when your name was called, or smiled back. It was gone, my daughter was gone. I asked the doctor since it was such a coincidence if the vaccines had anything to do with it? I don’t think anyone has ever made me feel stupider in my life. I should have felt stupid I was questioning a PH.D for goodness sakes. A couple months later my daughter was diagnosed with Autism. What happened? I watched before my very eyes her turn into someone in pain, confused, injured. I had no suspects. Neurologist said she was born with it. Doctor said it was maybe something I did while pregnant. What? Read too many baby books? For months I took the focus off what happened and redirected it to how to fix it. But I soon realized I needed to know what I was treating in order to help her. After I looked over all her medical records I sat there on the kitchen table hoping to unconvinced myself. She was first generation autistic. But the road to a vaccine injury, which all signs pointed to would be dangerous, painful and require more fight, emotion and determination than at that time I felt I could give. On that kitchen table I picked my head up and told myself I was the only voice she had left and I wasn’t going to let that one be silenced either.

I spent days on the CDC website. Cutting and Pasting ingredients to see if any of them had side effects similar to those of my daughters. I threw up after the first day from the emotional stress. In one day she received double the amount of phenoxyethanol (anti-freeze), aluminum, formaldehyde, and triple the mercury allowed for a 250 lb man. All those ingredients were classified under the top ten most harmful toxins to the ecosystem and were all classified as neurotoxins. She had received DNA from monkeys and aborted babies. The DNA could have contained who knows what and had the ability to alter hers. She had received over 9 different strands of viruses and disease. Her immune system which if judging by the amount of sickness from birth wasn’t very strong was now responsible for fighting off all of this, all at the same time.

One of the scariest days came when I gave birth to my son. We had to decide the most haunting decision (either way it’s made) that more and more parents are facing:

‘Was it fair to vaccinate one and not the other? If not, to which child was it not fair? The one who was saddled with behavioral challenges that may have been caused by vaccines, or the one who would be forever susceptible to diseases that could kill him?’

Ru Rico

http://www.knowingjulia.com

I worked with a guy who used to say roughly the same thing. He was a very smart guy, and I would have trusted his opinion on any question regarding chemistry, but one day someone brought up the link between vaccination and autism. I dismissed it with a backhanded comment and he leaped in to tell me that's easy for me to say, since I didn't have a child with autism which showed up straight after his vaccinations. I let it drop but was thinking that probably made me MORE able to give a valid opinion since I was unbiased. People like this feel like they need someone to blame. They can't believe that it could simply be genetics or any other uncontrollable factors. They need to find who's responsible. I just feel sorry for her really. :(
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Surlethe »

Here is the article that prompted my column:
Members of the Ball State University Truth Movement are hoping to make the campus a safer place through research done on a popular flu vaccine given at the Amelia T. Wood Health Center.

The organization presented research to the Health Center's Medical Director, Dr. Kent Bullis, showing that thimersol, which is found in the Fluzone vaccine given to Ball State students this year, can lead to Alzheimer's disease or autism.

The Truth Movement, which put on the "Eyes Wide Open Exhibit" last week, hopes the research will convince Bullis to order more doses of FluMist, a vaccine that does not contain the potentially harmful thimersol.

FluMist is $13 more than the traditional Fluzone. However Bullis said it does not sell, forcing him to throw away the extras. This year, Bullis ordered 500 doses of Fluzone and 30 of FluMist. While the Health Center sold out of Fluzone, it only sold three doses of FluMist.

Even with this research, Bullis said there are no studies done by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that found Fluzone to be dangerous. Tony Farmer, president of the University Truth Movement, believes the FDA's research was not enough.

"It's absolutely junk science," he said. "There are hundreds of thousands of parents of autistic children that are screaming at the top of their lungs that it is junk science."

In 1999 the Public Heath Service Agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics and vaccine manufacturers decided that thimerosal should be eliminated in all vaccines due to the potential danger. As of 2001, only certain flu vaccines contain the ingredient.

Bullis said he is taking the research seriously and plans to read it thoroughly so that he can make an informed decision as to which vaccines the Health Center will distribute next year.

"I asked them for the information," he said. "What I have read so far is very interesting."

Though Bullis is looking into the subject, he still stands by the FDA.

"I think the U.S. has one of the best regulatory systems in the world," he said. "They have a lot of manpower to look at vaccines and medications on a regular basis and I personally feel very safe taking the flu vaccine, and other vaccines. Overall I think the safety outweighs any risks."

Bullis said students who come in for the flu vaccine are aware of the options and are informed of the risks given by the FDA, which do not include the possible risk of Alzheimer's or autism.

"We do not include those risks because we haven't found any evidence," Bullis said.

Farmer said he believes that Bullis is open-minded and has the best interest of students at heart. Farmer's goal is that the research will go on to protect students on campus, and eventually help people across the nation, he said.

"My hope is that the vaccine will never be injected into the unsuspecting arms of Ball State students again," he said.
Here is the column itself:
I read Wednesday in the paper about the Ball State University "Truth Movement" and its attempt to persuade Dr. Kent Bullis, director of the Amelia T. Wood Health Center, that a link exists between the preservative thimerosal and autism and Alzheimer's disease. Tony Farmer, president of the student group, mentioned there are "hundreds of thousands of parents of autistic children" whose children had, presumably, become autistic because of the vaccination. As the father of an unborn daughter, the issue definitely affects me, so I decided to do a little bit of digging.

What I found mildly surprised me. Apparently, there is quite a large online community that believes that thimerosal or the MMR vaccination itself cause autism in children. Members of this group point to the fact that the population rate of autism began to rise in the 1970s and 1980s, about the same time widespread vaccinations began to occur, and after vaccinations many children begin to experience symptoms of autism. I was skeptical for two reasons: these alone are elementary logical fallacies, and the Web sites I visited lacked precise documentation.

Then I went to the Web sites of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the National Institutes of Health, and I found quite handy refutations of claims of a link between autism and vaccination: a wide spectrum of studies and meta-studies conducted between 1999 and 2008 have shown neither causal nor even temporal links between autism and vaccinations. In 2000 the Institute of Medicine conducted a review of all completed and ongoing studies, published papers and expert testimony regarding vaccination and autism. No link. The American Academy of Pediatrics held an entire conference on MMR vaccination and autism. No link. In 1999 an earlier study that had suggested (but not statistically demonstrated) an autism-vaccination link was refuted by Taylor, et al.

In fact, autism began to rise in 1979 and rates did not change when the MMR vaccine became widespread in 1988. When thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 2001, autism rates did not decline, according to a study of California children published in early 2008. Last September another study attempted to replicate the results of the 1998 study that suggested (but, again, did not statistically demonstrate) an autism-vaccination link. It failed utterly.

Everywhere researchers look, they fail to see a link. If it looks like nothing's there, feels like nothing's there, tastes like nothing's there, smells like nothing's there and sounds like nothing's there, there's probably nothing there. Which brings me back to the Ball State Truth Movement's behavior. Surely a quick search and meta-review of the available facts should be enough to convince anyone, to a first approximation, that there's no link. Because every major medical establishment (the CDC and NIH, in particular) throws its weight behind the lack of a causal link, what does this tell us about people who still agitate for vaccine choice and, in particular, try to educate professionals about their own field?

It tells us about their attitude toward truth. In conjunction with their name and further description on their Facebook group, it seems likely that the "Truth Movement" is composed of conspiracy theorists. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the majority of them aver the offensive claim that the 9/11 attacks were an inside job. Perhaps some of them are ignorant enough of basic science to believe that jumbo jets slamming into buildings at 500 mph, followed by nearly an hour of blazing infernos, are not enough to cause collapse.

Regardless, it is instructive to examine the conspiracy theorist mind-set. It throws out the basic scientific principles of falsifiability and Occam's razor; ironically, instead of actually searching for truth by creating, revising and discarding successively more accurate models, a conspiracy theorist has a particular outcome in mind and must grandfather the evidence (or, more usually, the lack thereof) to fit the conclusions.

This behavior is irrational, illogical and in many cases just plain dumb. Don't let yourself be suckered into the mind-set of anti-vacciners, 9/11 truthers and creationists; free yourself, and with skepticism and scientific rigor test every new idea that presents itself. That's the best way to get at truth. It's the way I'm going to go, at least: my daughter, whom I love more than life itself, will get all of her vaccines.
I emailed back the guy in charge of the student group. We'll see if we get into a protracted debate.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Mayabird »

If you need some help, here's some ammo: Before those evil, evil vaccinations start...
Unusual use of toys in infancy a clue to later autism
'Atypical object exploration' seen at 12 months in children later diagnosed with autism

(SACRAMENTO, Calif.) — Researchers at the UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute have found that infants later diagnosed with autism exhibited unusual exploration of objects long before being diagnosed. Studying a group of children at high risk for developing autism, the researchers found that those eventually diagnosed with the disorder were more likely to spin, repetitively rotate, stare at and look out of the corners of their eyes at simple objects, including a baby bottle and a rattle, as early as 12 months of age.

These findings could help pediatricians diagnose and treat autism earlier, reducing some of the social and educational challenges associated with the disorder.

"There is an urgent need to develop measures that can pick up early signs of autism, signs present before 24 months," said M.I.N.D. researcher Sally Ozonoff, first author of the current study, which was published in the October issue of Autism, the journal of the National Autistic Society.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has recommended that all infants be screened for autism twice before their second birthdays. Currently, pediatricians look for the hallmark social and communication signs of autism, which include language delays and lack of interest in people.

"The finding that the unusual use of toys is also present early in life means that this behavior could easily be added to a parent check-list or quickly assessed during a visit to a pediatrician's office," Ozonoff said.

The study involved 66 one-year-old infants. Nine of the children were later diagnosed with autism. Seven of the nine children displayed significantly more spinning, rotating and unusual visual exploration of objects than typically developing children.

"We found that these behaviors were relatively rare in the contrast group, but very high in the group who later developed autism," Ozonoff said.

Current screening tests focus on social-communicative behaviors like responding to name, making eye contact and word learning. These measures accurately distinguish children developing autism from children who are developing as expected.

The average age of autism diagnosis in the United States is three years of age or older. Interviews with parents, however, have shown that signs of autism often are present long before the diagnosis is made.

"About a third of parents notice signs before a child's first birthday," Ozonoff said. "We felt that our field could do a better job at early diagnosis, so we decided to look at multiple candidates for early screening and early detection," she explained.

Ozonoff and her colleagues decided to look at repetitive behaviors that previous studies indicated developed later than two years of age. These retrospective studies, however, relied on the memory of parents whose children were ultimately diagnosed with autism.

"We wanted to directly test whether or not repetitive behaviors so characteristic of autism might actually be apparent earlier and therefore useful in early diagnosis," Ozonoff said.

In contrast to previous research, the current prospective study began with a group of 12-month olds who had not received any diagnosis. The study group included infants from families who had either an older child diagnosed with autism or an older child developing typically.

To approximate the skewed gender ratio of autism in the real world, 62 percent of the infants enrolled were male. The children in the study were presented with four objects — a metal lid, a round plastic ring, a rattle and a plastic baby bottle — one at a time for 30 seconds each while being videotaped.

Researchers blind to the outcomes coded the behaviors in the tapes. The children were screened for autism at 36 months. Ozonoff and her colleagues found that children later diagnosed with autism were more likely to repeatedly spin and rotate objects. They were also more likely to explore objects in unusual ways, like glancing sideways at them or starting intently at them for prolonged periods.

"Our results suggest that these particular behaviors might be useful to include in screening tests," Ozonoff said.

More research involving more infants will have to be done first. Ozonoff and her colleagues have already begun a larger five-year study that also includes a high-risk sibling group like the one used in the current study.

"We will also want to check that we find the same results in a random community sample," she said.

These kinds of long-term studies, Ozonoff said, are the keys to improving early detection and diagnosis of autism.

"The earlier you treat a child for autism, the more of an impact you can have on that child's future," she said.

###

Other study authors included UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute researchers Gregory Young, Stacy Goldring, Megan Thompson, Sally Rogers and Suzanne Macara, who is now at Yale University. The study was supported by a grant from the National Institute of Mental Health.

The UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute, in Sacramento, Calif., was founded in 1998 as a unique interdisciplinary research center where parents, community leaders, researchers, clinicians and volunteers collaborate to study and treat autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders. More information about the institute is available on the Web at http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Samurai Rafiki »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:"my daughter was gone".

Jesus christ, these people are sickening. I want to slap that woman right now--how can she say such a thing? How can she !? It makes me trembling, it really does, and for all I know by experience that parents treat their children like that all the time--how can she? She's still your daughter, lady, you stupid bint, and she might well grow up to be far more beautiful and productive in this world than you ever will, and possibly happier. If you don't ruin her first with your misguided obsession with her wholeness. Silent and withdrawn children are not gone, they just need constant but respectful attention to teach them how to emote in ways that their brain can process. Motherhood is a precious gift and a severe burden, and you just cast it aside the moment your daughter has mental problems?

Nitram is really, truly, right, these people are sick beyond reason, treating their children like monsters, or devils that have taken over their bodies.

"my daughter was gone". Ugh.
Cut the parents some slack. It's the personality of the child they've been falling in love with for 3 years or so, and when the 'switch flips' (a euphamism almost as common as the disease), the personality they've gotten to know suddenly disappears. I used to be a substitute educational assistant and some of the work I did was with the special ed children. Severe autism isn't Jerry Espensen on Boston Legal and that new doctor on Grey's Anatomy, it's two aides trying to get an autistic fourth grader to take a standardized test because there are too many special ed kids at the school for him to be exempted. Even the specialist, who has a master's degree in this stuff, takes dozens of classes and read scores of books on this every year is frustrated to tears by how difficult it is just to get some of these kids to speak, much less read.

You say her daughter could be more beautiful and productive and happy than her, but do you think she could be more productive than you? Forgive me but when I'm in the middle of trying to get a third grader to read "See Spot Run" it's a little difficult to see him majoring in English literature. I don't even have a vested interest in it, so it has to be a billion times harder on the parents who have to change every dream they had when they decided to have kids.

Not to mention how hard it is on the kids, who are certainly perceptive enough to realize when they're being patronized. It's infuriating, because virtually everyone they know is lying to them with self-satisfying benevolence.

It's hard all around, and the odds of approximating a normal life are dismal, and that loss of potential is hard on the parents.

As far as autism being linked to vaccinations, the science isn't there. But it's something, and for a lot of these parents it's the most reliable lead they have as to why this happened to their kids. Sure it's a bit of an illogical leap, but my parents made ashtrays in summer camp before the link between cigarettes and lung cancer was made. All the progress made so far is just in new and earlier ways to notice autism, not to prevent or cure it. They've noticed genetic markers, but those aren't present in all the children. They've noticed environmental triggers, but those aren't universal either. Vaccinations are the only consistent marker in any of these kids, it involves pumping a lot of watered down bad stuff into the veins of little children and it's got a bunch of random side effects that aren't understood.

It might seem a little nonsensical for the moment, but Ignaz Semmelweis saved a lot of lives with procedures and precautions that were similarly nonsensical for the time.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Cairber »

Vaccinations are the only consistent marker in any of these kids, it involves pumping a lot of watered down bad stuff into the veins of little children and it's got a bunch of random side effects that aren't understood.
How do you figure that? None of them eat the same food? How about the vitamins they take; with your logic, we could easily say that it is the vitamins. The FDA recently tested about 400 vitamins and only 4 were totally lead free. why don't we blame that? How about actions or incidents that happened to the mother during pregnancy (recent search suggests a connection between maternal infections and autism)

I would also love to see your information on 'watered down bad stuff.' The Hib vaccine we use, for example, involves hib sugars binded to a tetanus toxoid and saline. The MMR contains:
The reconstituted vaccine is for subcutaneous administration. Each 0.5 mL dose contains not less than 1,000 TCID (tissue culture infectious doses) of measles virus; 12,500 TCID of mumps virus; and
1,000 TCIDof rubella virus. Each dose of the vaccine is calculated to contain sorbitol (14.5 mg), sodium phosphate, sucrose (1.9 mg), sodium chloride, hydrolyzed gelatin (14.5 mg), recombinant human albumin (≤0.3 mg), fetal bovine serum (<1 ppm), other buffer and media ingredients and approximately 25 mcg of neomycin. The product contains no preservative
That's from the package insert for the vaccine found here in PDF.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Duckie »

technically, everything in the entire universe that we can ingest is Watered Down Bad Stuff- vaccines containing a microgram of mercury isn't a concern for the same reason Vitamin C in your food isn't a concern- Vitamin C's toxicity would require you to down bottles per hour to kill you, in the same way that you'd have to be vaccinated hundreds of times to even possibly see a slight effect of mercury poisoning.

Mercury Poisoning and Autism being completely different things is another point for another day.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Samuel »

Mercury poisoning makes you mad as a hatter- the phrase coming from a profession where they used lots of mercury. Now a days they use selenium instead for gold mining. It just goes straight to killing you, but you can tell when your fingers change color.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Samurai Rafiki »

Cairber wrote:
Vaccinations are the only consistent marker in any of these kids, it involves pumping a lot of watered down bad stuff into the veins of little children and it's got a bunch of random side effects that aren't understood.
How do you figure that? None of them eat the same food? How about the vitamins they take; with your logic, we could easily say that it is the vitamins. The FDA recently tested about 400 vitamins and only 4 were totally lead free. why don't we blame that? How about actions or incidents that happened to the mother during pregnancy (recent search suggests a connection between maternal infections and autism)
I'm sure there are other connections between the kids, and I'm sure that there are different triggers for different forms and severities of autism but what I'm saying is that, especially to the horrified parents, the vaccinations are the most obvious medical thing that they don't understand, and it happens around the same time as the onset of the disease. It looks guilty, and not taking these possibilities seriously doesn't help put their minds at rest.
Cairber wrote:I would also love to see your information on 'watered down bad stuff.' The Hib vaccine we use, for example, involves hib sugars binded to a tetanus toxoid and saline. The MMR contains:
The reconstituted vaccine is for subcutaneous administration. Each 0.5 mL dose contains not less than 1,000 TCID (tissue culture infectious doses) of measles virus; 12,500 TCID of mumps virus; and
1,000 TCIDof rubella virus. Each dose of the vaccine is calculated to contain sorbitol (14.5 mg), sodium phosphate, sucrose (1.9 mg), sodium chloride, hydrolyzed gelatin (14.5 mg), recombinant human albumin (≤0.3 mg), fetal bovine serum (<1 ppm), other buffer and media ingredients and approximately 25 mcg of neomycin. The product contains no preservative
That's from the package insert for the vaccine found here in PDF.
You gave it yourself; I was talking about the TCID measles, mumps, and rubella. Vaccines work by giving the body a weakened form of the virus to attack and make antibodies for, but even those weakened viruses can't be good in the immediate sense for the body, even if the antibodies they produce are beneficial in the long run.

What I'm saying is that this feels like something that's easy to check, and if it turns out to contribute to the problem, then it's easy to correct. Give the vaccinations later, change the formulas, take some hits and make some of the diseases ones we cure rather than preempt. There has to be some other explanation for autism besides "Man, you guys got fucked. Too bad" that we give to these parents. And it's a big enough problem that it warrants hitting the brakes and slowing down enough to figure out what's causing the problem with these kids rather than just continuing on and saying "we'll figure it out eventually".
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Cairber »

I'm sure there are other connections between the kids
Then why did you say there were not? You claimed vaccines were the "only consistent marker..".

It looks guilty, and not taking these possibilities seriously doesn't help put their minds at rest.
Are you saying it is not being taken seriously? What is your evidence for that? Look at the amount of studies that have been done on this and the number that continue to come out practically monthly.

The CDC has a whole page addressing this. Google scholar MMR or Vaccine and Autism and you will get pages upon pages of studies.

CDC page

Hell, even the United States Congress is researching vaccines and autism!
What I'm saying is that this feels like something that's easy to check, and if it turns out to contribute to the problem, then it's easy to correct. Give the vaccinations later, change the formulas, take some hits and make some of the diseases ones we cure rather than preempt. There has to be some other explanation for autism besides "Man, you guys got fucked. Too bad" that we give to these parents. And it's a big enough problem that it warrants hitting the brakes and slowing down enough to figure out what's causing the problem with these kids rather than just continuing on and saying "we'll figure it out eventually".
I am going to assume you have not really looked at any of the research on this, especially if you think it's something that has not been "checked." (see my response above)
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Kitsune »

I have been trying to do some research on cause. An alternate cause appears to be father or mother's age. What are thoughts on this?
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

ASULaoTzu wrote:It looks guilty, and not taking these possibilities seriously doesn't help put their minds at rest.
The possibilities were taken seriously, tested thoroughly, and rejected because the data did not support them. The debate is over and science has spoken; it is the refusal of the anti-vaccination movement to understand this that leads people like Surlethe to call them conspiracy theorists, and further research down this avenue is a waste of time and resources, your emotional apologia aside.
You gave it yourself; I was talking about the TCID measles, mumps, and rubella. Vaccines work by giving the body a weakened form of the virus to attack and make antibodies for, but even those weakened viruses can't be good in the immediate sense for the body, even if the antibodies they produce are beneficial in the long run.
The problem with this being that autism is a brain development disorder, so in order for it to be causally related to the vaccine versions of measles, mumps, and rubella you would have to show that they affect the brain in some way. Here's a tip: they don't. Diseases affect the body in discrete identifiable ways. Hepatitis doesn't abruptly decide that it wants to give your liver a miss and head into your testes.
What I'm saying is that this feels like something that's easy to check, and if it turns out to contribute to the problem, then it's easy to correct.
It has been checked, and it turned out that it doesn't contribute to the problem, so it doesn't need to be corrected. Read the damn data.
There has to be some other explanation for autism besides "Man, you guys got fucked. Too bad" that we give to these parents.
Why so? Medicine isn't magic, life is hard, some things are outside your control, and a lot of the time there isn't anybody to sue. We know what causes Down's Syndrome, but do you think being told "you lost the genetic lottery and maybe you were too old to still be having kids" is a great comfort to anybody? Autism is caused by something, and I think that at some point we'll find out what, but when that day comes it's possible that we'll find we can do fuck-all about it.
And it's a big enough problem that it warrants hitting the brakes and slowing down enough to figure out what's causing the problem with these kids rather than just continuing on and saying "we'll figure it out eventually".
Not when "hitting the brakes" means "not vaccinating kids anymore", especially when it has been demonstrated scientifically that there is no causal link between vaccination and autism, while there is a definite link between unvaccinated kids and deaths due to preventable disease.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Stark »

Kitsune wrote:I have been trying to do some research on cause. An alternate cause appears to be father or mother's age. What are thoughts on this?
I hate to break it to you, but it's probably not that simple. Life is about odds; doing certain things (smoking, being old, being crazy yourself, whatever) might increase the odds of your children being autistic, but that chance was non-zero to start with. There's a difference between prudence (ie not smoking when having kids, maintaining a good diet, screening for hereditary problems) and hysterial witch-hunting like 'if you vaccinate your kids will BE RETARDS' or 'if you're old your kids will BE RETARDS'.
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Re: Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

Post by Kitsune »

All I know is that from reports (if there are no games being played with the data) that there is an increased rate of autism for older parents. Chances are still that you children will be normal.

Another factor is that today testing has become better...Many children might have in teh past not been diagnosed
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