Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

[JME2]

The new article on the upcoming episode has some possibly big implications for the series, if this means what I think it does: Spoiler

"I thought it was interesting because the clone's logic is understandable," Lee says. "He no longer wants to be just a slave to the Jedi, and wants to try and break that infrastructure. He thinks he's doing the right thing for all the clones and that the sacrifice is worth it."

"It's all about the brotherhood, and how far those boundaries stretch," Greenberg adds. "Even the guy who turns out to be the bad guy makes the case that he was doing it for his brothers. This is about what it means to be a clone and what it means to be part of that brotherhood."

"If one clone can break from his brothers, and what he is bred for as a soldier of the Republic, and act on his own," Lee says, "how many more would do the same? This creates an interesting beginning of something to come."

Emphasis mine. Could this mean Spoiler

we'll finally get clones vs. clones in the Clone Wars

?

Hmm. I hope so; I'd certainly start watching it on a more regular basis if that particular plot thread develops.

[DesertFly]

I spent 2 years as an infantryman and I've NEVER heard this line of reasoning before. In my experience, 3-rd burst fire (and by extension auto fire, if our M4's had it) was used solely to pick up the slack of fire suppression when a fire team/squad's SAW/M60/etc. is down due to jams, reloading, or barrel changes. The only way you'd significantly increase penetration would be if the rounds were practically hitting the same hole, one after the other, and that's highly unlikely with any assault rifle except the Russian AN-94.

We were trained that automatic fire for our SAWs and by extension, the M-16s were to be used against troops hiding behind light cover.

I'm no soldier, but it seems more likely that that is because you're more likely to hit someone when you don't know their exact position by putting bullets all over a small area that they could be hiding in. Very different than penetration, and something that semi-automatic would not be ideal for.

[Vympel]

Hmm. I hope so; I'd certainly start watching it on a more regular basis if that particular plot thread develops.

Ugh. I wouldn't. That's the last thing I'm interested in seeing.

[Noble713]

We were trained that automatic fire for our SAWs and by extension, the M-16s were to be used against troops hiding behind light cover.

Ehhhh, that makes a little more sense, given the context. As I understand it, Singapore has an abundance of vegetation anywhere that isn't an urban conglomerate. So if by "light cover" it's meant "trees" you could kill covered & concealed point targets with concentrated fire, but you're not really getting better penetration, you're just ripping their cover to shreds. It's the same thing with 40mm grenade machine guns: they can't shoot through a house, but concentrated fire will sure as hell flatten one.

I'd still say it's a bit of a waste of ammo/poor application of the weapon system but not knowing the composition of your squads/fire teams it's hard to judge. A US team would probably employ HE weapons (M203, AT-4, grenades, etc.) to kill protected point targets and allow the SAW to focus on suppression.

I'm content to end my thread hijack at this point.

*returns to lurk mode*

[Knife]

Suppressive fire is doctrine. Hard to get around the concept.

[Connor MacLeod]

So? Up your firepower high enough so that it burn through the crates and hit the clonetroopers hiding on the other side. It doesn't have to be a single shot either, it may require repeated bursts, but so what?

Well, since you seem to clearly know all the details and variables involved in such a feat, maybe you can provide the evidence to back up your claim that YOUR answer is the only one that makes sense?

BTW, I love how you completely and totally bitch about the crates but you ignore other scenes that are worse (such as oh, the inability of blasters to blow through tree trunks in ROTJ. By your logic the Rebels should have been upping their blasters to shoot through the trees and kill the stormies behind them. Guess they're too stupid, huh?)

Hang on, I'm not the one making accuracy statements about the droids being smart enough not to hit violatile targets.

Uh, as I recall one of my chief argument was "they don't want to use extremely powerful settings and thereby risk a stray bolt hitting something volatile or dangerous." not "the battle droids have enough accuracy not to hit something volatile" Maybe you can point out where I said so if I did. Hell, I haven't even touched on the other possibilities. (I doubt you even bothered to consider shielding for example.)

The point is, in this scenario, there was no reason for the droids not to be using increased firepower so as to waste away the Clones. Your argument that the droids might be using limited firepower in lieu of violatiles doesn't wash, since we already SEE the droids blasting away at said crates, which means that they aren't afraid of the crates being violate, they're blasting away merrily into thin air as part of suppression fire, which means they're NOT afraid of hitting stray targets and etc etc etc. Said fuel drums were vulnerable to the clonetrooper pistols, that's obviously not a standard of high damage capacity casing. And even if there were violatile targets lying around, that made even MORE sense to blast THROUGH the limited cover the clonetroopers were lying around in, since you would miss hitting the stray fuel tanks lying around. And even if said crates were violatile, it would be the clonetroopers and the Jedi eating the dust, not you.[

Or at worse, the droid armies lose another bunch of droids and a tank. What's that compared to the million droids being produced daily?

We already knew the droid army was being commanded badly. They have a flimsy command structure that's inflexible and slow to respond to changing circumstances. Its unweildy, vulnerable to cracking under pressure and droid tactics places too little value on cover and force preservation. Droids would smash aside other droids so as to take their place in the firing line and etc. I'm just saying the Clone wars series show that the droids obviously must have another layer of stupidity layered into them. The inability to choose appropiate firepower and weapons to the situation. Look at how they chose to take out Jar Jar Binks. Deploy a goodly number of depth charges, THEN launch a missile? One that's powerful enough to cause a huge blast, but not take out the big fish monster, meaning they invested a significant amount of its payload on concussive effects. Good when used against solid or in this case, underwater. But one has to wonder why the droid armies chose to use a blast weapon as an AP weapon. Alternatively, witness the hunt against Master Yoda and the 4 clonetroopers in the first episode. Slow tactical response and inappropiate tactics and weapons.......

Fine, I'm waiting for your detailed evidence to back up your claims that the ONLY answer is the one you propose, since (as I noted) you clearly have all the evidence at hand.

[PainRack]

Ehhhh, that makes a little more sense, given the context. As I understand it, Singapore has an abundance of vegetation anywhere that isn't an urban conglomerate. So if by "light cover" it's meant "trees" you could kill covered & concealed point targets with concentrated fire, but you're not really getting better penetration, you're just ripping their cover to shreds. It's the same thing with 40mm grenade machine guns: they can't shoot through a house, but concentrated fire will sure as hell flatten one.

The corollary was this. Mutiple shots in the same spot, in a tight burst pattern would cause the cover to break apart. They demonstrated that easily by showing penetration and concretes.

I'd still say it's a bit of a waste of ammo/poor application of the weapon system but not knowing the composition of your squads/fire teams it's hard to judge. A US team would probably employ HE weapons (M203, AT-4, grenades, etc.) to kill protected point targets and allow the SAW to focus on suppression.

Actually, we have the same amount of firepower in our infantry teams. However, understand that I'm NOT infantry:D. Military policemen carry obscene power when we deploy our GPMS, but otherwise, we're stuck with a ten man rifle section.

It also doesn't really apply to SW here, since its more of firepower settings. We already know blasters have variable firepower, and that the droids do have heavier settings. Its more an issue of WHY said droids didn't use power settings.

[RogueIce]

So I guess I get to be first to comment on the episode? Yay!

I liked it. The music did it's job of epic/adventure/hopeless rolled into one when it needed to be. I have the soundtrack to the movie, and now I want the soundtrack to the show dammit!

As to the traitor angle, he did pursue the slaves to the Jedi bit. But Cody and Rex were unimpressed, and shoved it into his face that he just hurt his brothers and little else. So I suppose it could be explored or maybe it won't be, we'll see.

And I'm not up on the backstory and behind the scenes stuff, but this definately came across as almost a direct prequel to the movie.

EDIT: And I must say I enjoyed the little things. A trooper who religiously cleans his weapon, another who takes (illegal) battlefield souvenirs, and even clones like pin-up girls on their barracks walls. And, according to the comic, on speeder bikes as well. I enjoy little details like that, makes them seem more, well, human.

[Darth Fanboy]

Is it just me or does this episode seem like it would fit perfectly taking place just before the animated movie? Almost as if this were the first 20-30 minutes of it?

[VT-16]

As stated on the OS, this is a prequel that leads into the events of the film, yes.

[Knife]

Well, they could have emphasized that then. I didn't know and I watched it thinking the same thing. I really wished they would have sat down and thought about some of these things. Organized the episodes into...IDK, campaigns on worlds Yeah, yeah, individual episodes with an over all arch on the planet and the over all, over all arch of the show. Hopping around planets every week with a new 'battle' brewing is kind of dumb.

[VT-16]

They did show Ventress walking to the Trident, octopus ship that nabs Rotta in the film. And we see General Loathsom or whatever begin his campaign in full.

[TheSpaceman?]

I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.

[NecronLord]

I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.

In all fairness; they really are slaves. The fact that Traviss says it doesn't mean it ain't so, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Knife]

I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.

In all fairness; they really are slaves. The fact that Traviss says it doesn't mean it ain't so, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I want to argue against that but can't really find a good one. If the Republic has an out some how for the odd ball clone to leave the GAR, then I think it would be harder to call it slavery.

[ray245]

Which makes me wonder, will there be any clones that break down crying after Order 66?

[Knife]

Which makes me wonder, will there be any clones that break down crying after Order 66?

I'm more curious over self termination rates after Order 66?

[NecronLord]

I want to argue against that but can't really find a good one. If the Republic has an out some how for the odd ball clone to leave the GAR, then I think it would be harder to call it slavery.

I'm pretty sure the Kaminoans (though this might be Traviss) have even been mentioned killing clone children that don't measure up during training. I'm not sure of the source, though, I don't really follow the books/comics. Though they kept the ARCs in suspended animation IIRC. "We don't trust you. Get into that cylinder labelled 'break glass in case of war.' We may never wake you up."

[Darth Fanboy]

if the show ever comes out on DVD I would hope that they include the movie with it in a box set. Like Knife said watching the series in an arc of campaigns would be nice. There are already a series of two and three part episodes that piece together well.

Wonder what Travissty thought of the idea of a clone traitor betraying his brothers. I'd expect her idea of a clone attempting to "liberate" his brothers wouldn't have put them in so much danger.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm pretty sure the Kaminoans (though this might be Traviss) have even been mentioned killing clone children that don't measure up during training. I'm not sure of the source, though, I don't really follow the books/comics. Though they kept the ARCs in suspended animation IIRC. "We don't trust you. Get into that cylinder labelled 'break glass in case of war.' We may never wake you up."

Yeah. I believe it was in the DK visual dictionaries (something like 6 clones out of every 200 were aberrant or something to that effect.)

As for the whole "slave" thing - they were, ,but they were as much slaves under the Empire as they were for the Republic. Then again so were droids (the behaviours and capabilites of many droids in SW has demonstrated they are for all intents and purposes sentient, its just hypocrisy that treats them as slaves, and because humans make them. But then again, SW humans can make clones, too. or children.)

Edit: Mind you, even though they were totally obedient to the Jedi, teh Jedi didn't intend for them to be that way, or ask for them to be that way. I'm pretty sure its been shown that many Jedi do in fact abhor this and go out of their way to bond with and respect their troopers - thats what made the betrayal in Order 66 so damn disturbing in my mind (CF: Cody giving Obi-Wan back his lightsaber just prior to killing him.)

[Ender]

As to the Kaminoans killing clones, that is a Traviss creation. And even then, that the section was killed was an assumption, they were just never seen again. Which doesn't mean a great deal, we meet people wenever see again every day. The AOTC VD just speaks to the high quality of the clones, and says nothing about what happens to the "defectives", or even what qualifies as "defective". Embryos that auto abort would be considered "defective" fro their POV after all.

WRT the clones as slaves, that's a bit weird. They were paid for their service, treated as humans rather than property (though that varied from person to person), were granted leave and downtime, and were eventually allowed to retire and leave the service. On the other hand, they were contracted into a force not of their choosing from birth. Personally, given the standard of droids as clear slaves in SW, it may be more accurate to view them as draftees rather than slaves.

As to the ARCs being kept in suspended animation, there is nothing outstanding about that, we know from Hard Contact that clones are kept in stasis when there is no call for them to be deployed. It is pretty logical, as it saves on food and housing. As to the morality of it, I'm on the fence. You don't feel the passage of time for a few months that you would otherwise just be sitting around getting cabin fever? I'm not sure I really feel bad for you.

[TheSpaceman?]

I can't be the only one who though Slick sounded like Traviss, can I? I almost thought it could be on purpose.

In all fairness; they really are slaves. The fact that Traviss says it doesn't mean it ain't so, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I was more referring to the way the Jedi were demonized. Even if the clones are technically slaves(I haven't read enough of the EU to know for sure), the way he spoke of the Jedi seemed to have a Travissian slant to it.

[NecronLord]

WRT the clones as slaves, that's a bit weird. They were paid for their service, treated as humans rather than property (though that varied from person to person), were granted leave and downtime, and were eventually allowed to retire and leave the service. On the other hand, they were contracted into a force not of their choosing from birth. Personally, given the standard of droids as clear slaves in SW, it may be more accurate to view them as draftees rather than slaves.

I'd say that conscription is a form of slavery, albeit comparatively benign and at times a neccessary evil. Of course, the Republic/Jedi are in a position where they're forced to use the clones (the alternative being 'be annexed by the CIS'). Of course, I expect that as far as the clones know, the jedi planned to buy them as a peacetime army. Also. what's all this about them getting paid?

As to the morality of it, I'm on the fence. You don't feel the passage of time for a few months that you would otherwise just be sitting around getting cabin fever? I'm not sure I really feel bad for you.

I'm pretty sure the idea in the comic that introduced them was that they'd never be awakened, until Kamino itself was threatened. They certainly weren't shipped out with the others.

I was more referring to the way the Jedi were demonized. Even if the clones are technically slaves(I haven't read enough of the EU to know for sure), the way he spoke of the Jedi seemed to have a Travissian slant to it.

Demonised? They're enslaving you. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable reason to hate someone, no matter how nice they are about it.

[Darth Fanboy]

Slick's rant didn't seem Travissian to me, because if it were part of Traviss' design, then it would have been a mini-order 66 targeted at Anakin and Obi Wan with all of the clones united screaming in Mandalorian rather than what happened. I am of the opinion that this episode never would have happened if she had penned the episode, because Slick committed the unfathomable crime of putting his brother clones at risk and his actions lead to many of them being killed.

[RogueIce]

They did show Ventress walking to the Trident, octopus ship that nabs Rotta in the film. And we see General Loathsom or whatever begin his campaign in full.

The only reason I remember Loathsom's name is because it's on the back of my soundtrack case. I don't remember the design of the octopus ship at all because it's been a good while since I saw the movie.

I'll go with the "they could have been more clear" thing though. If nothing else than to make it flow better. Was the ice planet pre-movie too? I mean it was just Obi wan and Anakin with no real mention of Ashoka (where would she have been, what was she doing if it was pre-movie?).

Well I'd like campaign arcs, I don't mind if they hop around from battle to battle a bit. But it'd be nice if there was a more consistent timeline, or if they'd at least put in some caption if they're going back in time for an episode. I could hope the DVD cases when they come out might do this?