Vultur wrote:Well, I've always had serious doubts about the 'angels or cavemen' thing because it implies that technology can go on increasing - and increasing quickly - pretty much indefinitely, which I really really doubt. There's no reason to assume they have extra technology besides what's been shown. Anyway, if they *DO* we're doomed anyway, so we might as well act as if we're closer to their level.
Angels or Cavemen isn't just about how advanced your technology is, you know. Its really more about how old your civilization is and how much resources they have, i.e. how high up the kardeshev scale they are. Our civilization has only been around for a few thousand years at most, and our species was literal cavemen for most of its existence. That isn't very much time in astronomic terms, and there could easily be civilizations out there with thousands of years existence on us, with all the history and knowledge *edit*experience*edit* that implies. Really, its not that hard to see that more is better, even if quality peaks (which I find dubious, personally).
At any rate, if you are planet bound and the other guy isn't, what are you really going to do to him, Caveman? Numerous sci-fi threads around here have established the tactical/strategic importance of dominating the orbit of a planet, and if the other guy can freely roam space with fusion torch ships you are undeniably screwed. Think about it. The gravitational potential energy from orbit means that all they have to do is drop shit on us as long as it can survive entry of the atmosphere. Are you going to argue with a power that can drop fucking mountains on you? (or in this case teraton level nukes) Get real. You are better playing it safe and not preemptively blowing shit up, even if you have that option (as we apparently do here).
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." —Shroom Man 777 "To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
TheMuffinKing wrote:What if we send a rocket to the object and attempt to make physical contact with said rocket. Now assuming we can make contact with the object with a rocket, and I don't mean ram it, can the object be pushed by the rocket? Assume we launch the most powerful commercial lifter we have.
Are you talking about the origional Object or one of the copies?
This is a sci-fi "You're walking through the desert and encounter an old pump well, with a sealed glass of water next to it. A note indicates you will need the whole glass of water to prime the pump." A question of faith: do we believe the Last Race is right, that this is an extinction weapon system? Do we pass on this message before learning if it is true to the Next Race?
These plates were provided by the Last Race that sent these plates before the "extinction event". See #8, the Last Race probe (that detached and splashed-down on earth) being sent and attaching to the worm-hole replicator original before it left. Plates 9, 10, 11, 12 (may have) happened after the Original probe left through another wormhole.
Your planet has just encountered a "galactic civilization witness" probe. As the probe will not be finished with it's replication by the end of the countdown (provided by the Last Race to encounter this), we can choose to interpret the probe as a world-killer, or that the Last Race to encounter it triggered their own extinction by attacking these probes or simply falling to internal issues. The (hypothetical) explosions of the 16 objects? What's to say that wasn't the Last Race's attempt to destroy the probes triggering an "extinction" verdict? Or even a choice of race suicide in the face of "intelligent life outside our own"? Or just a "glass is half-empty" prophecy?
With the responses witnessed to date, the probes will not remain passive to aggressive actions, but the Original did allow an alien probe to attach itself. From this we can conclude: advanced sensors on the Original probe determined the Last Race probe was not a weapon, and allowed contact, even carried it on to the next world! With a payload of "plates" and what has been determined to be a count-down timer (with insufficiently energetic power source to be weaponized), the Original probe may not have been able to determine the "message".
In the name of caution (and public demand), "steps will be taken", but overt hostility will not. We have encountered not one but two alien races' artifacts, answering the Big Question: are we alone? We have insufficient information to determine the accuracy of the Last Race "postcard". We do have evidence that the probes are reactive to our actions. With a technology clearly superior to our own, we cannot guarantee any success with hostility. Sci-fi writers have for years shown us that our greatest failing in "first contact" situations is barbarism and hostility.
Immediate efforts will be focused on preventing radical elements of the military, religious and, well, geekdom circles from precipitating conflict with a clearly advanced race. Plates 9, 10, 11, and 12 will be not be disclosed, as they are, logically, merely speculation. Long-term efforts will go to establishing a "best face" for humanity, now that we're under the microscope of an advanced race.
A probe will be created carrying records of the Last Race probe and the "other hand" scenario ("alternate plates" 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13: benign observation by the Original race, our location), launched and attached to the Original probe before the timer runs out (it may very well be the wormhole clock, as the math doesn't work for the 16 probe detonation: the last won't be built in time.)
Clearly each race is to determine its own fate, but "poisoning the well" as the Last Race did is not my style. Besides, there's something intrinsically cool about a trunk with stickers of where it's been, and the Last Race only left theirs.
Plate 13 had only one system indicated on it. This is either the Probe's origin (as determined by the Last Race) or the Last Race's system. We don't know, but we'll point radio telescopes at it and keep listening.
Note: I am assuming the OP was presented exactly as intended and there wasn't any "I didn't think of that" to the order of the plates.
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
TheMuffinKing wrote:What if we send a rocket to the object and attempt to make physical contact with said rocket. Now assuming we can make contact with the object with a rocket, and I don't mean ram it, can the object be pushed by the rocket? Assume we launch the most powerful commercial lifter we have.
Are you talking about the origional Object or one of the copies?
If I have to choose one, then I would try to maneuver to one of the copies. I wonder if we can alter the objects orbit.
Wouldn't it be possible to place armed satellites (we have anti-satellite missiles after all, and could stick lasers and autocannon up there too) in orbit where they don't directly threaten the objects but could attempt to shoot down any projectiles they launch at the earth?
Ditto for lobbing nukes into the upper atmosphere to vaporize, or at least fuck up, any incoming warheads or kinetic impact weaponry? The EMP would be a bitch, at least for civilians, if we weren't prepared for it beforehand, but as a last-ditch option it's not a completely horrible one.
If the objects DO turn out to be hostile, we might as well try to make it hard for them to wipe us out for no thoroughly justified reason.
TheMuffinKing wrote:What if we send a rocket to the object and attempt to make physical contact with said rocket. Now assuming we can make contact with the object with a rocket, and I don't mean ram it, can the object be pushed by the rocket? Assume we launch the most powerful commercial lifter we have.
Are you talking about the origional Object or one of the copies?
If I have to choose one, then I would try to maneuver to one of the copies. I wonder if we can alter the objects orbit.
If you want to do this with an unmanned rocket I am guessing it will take several months to gather and build what you need. In that time several more of the copies are built and put into orbit.
If you want to try this when only one copy is present then you would have to use the Space Shuttle which means a manned attempt to move the copy.
Khaat wrote:This is a sci-fi "You're walking through the desert and encounter an old pump well, with a sealed glass of water next to it. A note indicates you will need the whole glass of water to prime the pump." A question of faith: do we believe the Last Race is right, that this is an extinction weapon system? Do we pass on this message before learning if it is true to the Next Race?
These plates were provided by the Last Race that sent these plates before the "extinction event". See #8, the Last Race probe (that detached and splashed-down on earth) being sent and attaching to the worm-hole replicator original before it left. Plates 9, 10, 11, 12 (may have) happened after the Original probe left through another wormhole.
Your planet has just encountered a "galactic civilization witness" probe. As the probe will not be finished with it's replication by the end of the countdown (provided by the Last Race to encounter this), we can choose to interpret the probe as a world-killer, or that the Last Race to encounter it triggered their own extinction by attacking these probes or simply falling to internal issues. The (hypothetical) explosions of the 16 objects? What's to say that wasn't the Last Race's attempt to destroy the probes triggering an "extinction" verdict? Or even a choice of race suicide in the face of "intelligent life outside our own"? Or just a "glass is half-empty" prophecy?
With the responses witnessed to date, the probes will not remain passive to aggressive actions, but the Original did allow an alien probe to attach itself. From this we can conclude: advanced sensors on the Original probe determined the Last Race probe was not a weapon, and allowed contact, even carried it on to the next world! With a payload of "plates" and what has been determined to be a count-down timer (with insufficiently energetic power source to be weaponized), the Original probe may not have been able to determine the "message".
In the name of caution (and public demand), "steps will be taken", but overt hostility will not. We have encountered not one but two alien races' artifacts, answering the Big Question: are we alone? We have insufficient information to determine the accuracy of the Last Race "postcard". We do have evidence that the probes are reactive to our actions. With a technology clearly superior to our own, we cannot guarantee any success with hostility. Sci-fi writers have for years shown us that our greatest failing in "first contact" situations is barbarism and hostility.
Immediate efforts will be focused on preventing radical elements of the military, religious and, well, geekdom circles from precipitating conflict with a clearly advanced race. Plates 9, 10, 11, and 12 will be not be disclosed, as they are, logically, merely speculation. Long-term efforts will go to establishing a "best face" for humanity, now that we're under the microscope of an advanced race.
A probe will be created carrying records of the Last Race probe and the "other hand" scenario ("alternate plates" 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13: benign observation by the Original race, our location), launched and attached to the Original probe before the timer runs out (it may very well be the wormhole clock, as the math doesn't work for the 16 probe detonation: the last won't be built in time.)
Clearly each race is to determine its own fate, but "poisoning the well" as the Last Race did is not my style. Besides, there's something intrinsically cool about a trunk with stickers of where it's been, and the Last Race only left theirs.
Plate 13 had only one system indicated on it. This is either the Probe's origin (as determined by the Last Race) or the Last Race's system. We don't know, but we'll point radio telescopes at it and keep listening.
Note: I am assuming the OP was presented exactly as intended and there wasn't any "I didn't think of that" to the order of the plates.
Well thought out. I cannot comment here on what you may have gotten right or wrong. If you would like PM me with exactly what you would do. I will post here with a "you live or you died and what the parting gifts are" message along with a PM back to you with some clarification.
I choose the unmanned option. I would like for my unmanned rocket to slow on approach so that it stops just before contact with the object. Once that is accomplished I would have the rocket gently push the object out of orbit.
With a 33-day build cycle this effectively gives us a 15-month window to come up with a solution.
Since we're talking about a space-based nuclear (or similar magnitude/effect) doomsday weapon/von Neumann machine that appears to have the mission of singling out inhabited worlds and wiping them out, an armed response doesn't appear to be feasible as long as the original object, of unknown capabilities, remains in orbit.
However, there's one question of casuality that comes to mind. How can the final plates record the demise of the alien world, when the probe (and the plates) left said world before the final solution (TM) took effect? It's either hyperbole or a violation of casuality. Occam's Razor would seem, therefore, to favor hyperbole as it is the argument with fewer unknowns.
Having said that, unless this doomsday device is of obscene magnitude and capable of destroying the entire atmosphere (which the plates would indicate is incorrect, given that there were fires burning at the surface and that would be relatively difficult without atmosphere; then again, the plates may just be hyperbole) then it would be possible to at least save a small population in facilities such as Cheyenne Mountain. The biggest difficulty would be in building enough underground food storage and growing space to feed that population for as much time as it would take for the radiation to die down. It would be difficult to do in 15 months, but the magnitude of the situation would make it a necessity. Doubtlessly the USA would not be the only country to realize this and there would be at least several such projects around the world. So let's consider this the backup plan.
Unfortunately, as space travel took a left turn at Albuquerque starting in the 1960s, we don't have any sort of long-term space presence save for the ISS, which can be counted on as a complete loss in this attack. With a more ambitious Air Force program back from the 1960s, we might have had a semi-self sustaining Moon base at least; but that's merely a what-if and so space is basically out of the question in this situation. Also, for all those that mentioned the Shuttle, don't forget that 2010 is still on track as the retirement date. Not to mention the fact that the Shuttle is physically incapable of reaching even halfway to the Moon. The only way you're getting up there is via Soyuz.
Now, as for the things we know... We know that the probe that splashed down was able to successfully piggyback on the original object. This means that the objects can be touched and that there are no exotic shields or anything of the sort. Whether we would actually want to attempt to touch the object: that's another question entirely. Judging by the spectral results, no doubt a good portion of the scientific community would be interested in their actual composition, but it sounds as if the original object does not think highly of attempts to get close to the replicated objects.
So we should study from a distance. We can put a last-ditch probe up with similar records to the Voyager disks, and park it in an intermediate orbit so that it would be possible to perhaps attach to the first object if necessary, but that seemed to be the action that doomed the last one (if, indeed, they were doomed).
Or, as they say, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And make sure that nobody with an itchy trigger finger is going to start shooting nukes off, otherwise the whole world could just up and kill itself without the objects doing a thing.
Considering the hypothetical wiped out race has the spaceflight technology to maneuver their plate-carrying probe out to follow the berzerker object, it doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to see the possibility that the plates may have been engraved somewhere other than the barbecued surface of the wrecked world.
A space station, moon base, or a surviving ship, something like that.
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The only problem with that is that the timeline explicitly states that the original probe left, with the other race's probe, before the devices initiated. Thus it's either a violation of casuality or conjecture on the other race's part.
Can we analyse the plates to see if they're all the same age/composition, etc?
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Crayz9000 wrote:The only problem with that is that the timeline explicitly states that the original probe left, with the other race's probe, before the devices initiated. Thus it's either a violation of casuality or conjecture on the other race's part.
Are the plates made of a kind of material that someone with about our technological level could create, or is it some kind of weird alloy that we have no idea how to begin making?
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
