Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

JLTucker
BANNED
Posts: 3043
Joined: 2006-02-26 01:58am

Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by JLTucker »

I was browsing a forum dedicated to a television series and I came across a thread where someone felt it was necessary to post about her supposed encounter with Jesus, because apparently it fits in with the series. :roll: It's a long-ass post so I will quote the relevant section, leaving out the background information that just says she was brought up with religion, attended a religious school, had personal tragedies, didn't follow a traditional career path, and was playing a concert before the incident occurred.

Link: ++http://thechaselounge.net/showthread.php?t=1109
...
The Encounter

I hadn’t long closed my eyes and had not yet fallen asleep when suddenly something completely startling and ineffable impelled me to sit up in bed. The light seeping through the cracks of the hotel curtains failed to illuminate anything foreign or animate in the darkened room.

The next thing I knew, a stream of words started forming in my consciousness in an even, rhythmical pulse, one word after another, and seemed to enter my body and mind from the location of my forehead. With each rhythmical word pulse, I “saw” a concomitant flash of metaphysical purple light and felt a contemporaneous burning sensation in my forehead. It was as if a purple laser was searing the words, one at a time, into the frontal lobe of my brain, even though there was no actual purple light in the room.

Frightened, stunned, and somehow comforted all at once, I began crying uncontrollably. The stream of words that came to me (of which I can now only recall a small part, ver batim) conveyed that I was not to blame myself for failing to follow a traditional career path or for failing to become the “star” that I or others might have thought I was supposed to become, that I was put on the earth to be a “star for my family,” a “beacon” to lead them to Him. The one passage that I still recall word for word was this one: “I died for you. Can’t you live for me?”

Still sobbing while rivers of tears ran down my face, I silently asked who was speaking to me. This time, the answer was not verbal but was nevertheless immediate and clear. I suddenly became like a puppet, completely controlled by a master puppeteer. My arms slowly, smoothly, and completely involuntarily extended from my sides, rising from and pivoting at the shoulders until they extended 180 degrees out, hands drooping slightly at the wrists. As they came to a rest in this outstretched position, my head involuntarily drooped forward and to the side, leaving my upper body in complete, non-volitional mimicry of a crucifixion.

The Aftermath

For the next couple of days, I recall feeling almost alien on earth, even to my beloved immediate family. Everyone and everything seemed inadequate, pitiful, and/or foreign. I found it nearly impossible to eat, drink, or take in any sustenance and had no desire to hear music or partake in anything sensual. It was like the day after Christmas, pardon the pun, to the 100th power.
...
How do you respond to this? I am inclined to believe that she was hallucinating or she was actually dreaming and decided to fabricate the story for the purpose of attention-whoring. I want to respond but I am not entirely sure what to say.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by General Zod »

Why respond at all? It's doubtful anything you could say would convince them that they didn't see Jesus so there's no real point in getting in an argument over it. Unless you just want to stir up shit for the sake of it anyway.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
General Trelane (Retired)
Jedi Knight
Posts: 620
Joined: 2002-07-31 05:27pm
Location: Gothos

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

So she had what she thinks is a profound personal revelation of Jesus. If it's true, then what does it mean that most people have not had similar revelations? In the words of Thomas Paine:
Thomas Paine wrote: EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some observations on the word 'revelation.' Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication. After this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner, for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

-Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776
User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Nephtys »

I've once laid down, closed my eyes, then suddenly found myself in the middle of a UFO before, breaking out and escaping, to enjoy a nice cup of tea with Rodney McKay on Atlantis.

It's called a dream. Or that weird hallucinatory period when you're not fully asleep, but completely out of it. This person is attention seeking at worst, experiencing hysterical irrationality at best.
Kanastrous
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6464
Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Kanastrous »

Nephtys wrote:
It's called a dream. Or that weird hallucinatory period when you're not fully asleep, but completely out of it.
'Lucid Dreaming,' I think that's called.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
OsirisLord
Youngling
Posts: 99
Joined: 2009-01-31 05:37pm

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by OsirisLord »

There's no point at all in responding to religious delusions. These people want to believe this is real and their faith blinders will make sure that any contradicting message or ideas don't get through.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Darth Wong »

This woman literally describes voices in her head as proof of an "encounter with Jesus", and you feel you must make some kind of point-by-point response to it? Are you serious?

If God is omnipotent, why does he always reveal himself to people in ways so subtle that they could be easily mistaken for something else? Why not just show up in her room, and then wave to the security camera while healing someone or bringing someone back from the dead? He had no such compunctions about revealing himself in the Bible.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
SilverWingedSeraph
Jedi Knight
Posts: 965
Joined: 2007-02-15 11:56am
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

Kanastrous wrote:
Nephtys wrote:
It's called a dream. Or that weird hallucinatory period when you're not fully asleep, but completely out of it.
'Lucid Dreaming,' I think that's called.
Actually, it's more the exact opposite of Lucid Dreaming. A lucid dream is when you're dreaming, and you're aware of the fact it's a dream. This is more like having a dream and thinking its real even after it happened. Sounds like a hallicunation or a really vivid dream that seemed real. I'd suspect Sleep Paralysis, except it doesn't quite fit.
  /l、
゙(゚、 。 7
 l、゙ ~ヽ
 じしf_, )ノ
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Surlethe »

Split two redundant one-liners to Testing.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Patrick Degan »

From the way this woman describes her "encounter", if we take her words at face-value, she either experienced a dream or a seizure of some sort, and I'd bet on the latter.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Samuel »

She has obiviously been impregnated by Zeus. Seriously, the "stream of gold" sounds like it is straight out of Greek mythology. Of course, it is due to brain quirks as you guys have pointed out. Nice to see that people are still affected by the same things- and follow more rigourous double think. How long would it have taken her to look up the story of Perseus?
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Samuel wrote:She has obiviously been impregnated by Zeus. Seriously, the "stream of gold" sounds like it is straight out of Greek mythology. Of course, it is due to brain quirks as you guys have pointed out. Nice to see that people are still affected by the same things- and follow more rigourous double think. How long would it have taken her to look up the story of Perseus?
Please, if Zeus showed up in her room, that story would have went ALOT differently. Possibly involving a really beautiful Labrador Retriever or something shagging her.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Darth Wong »

Hallucinations like that say more about the person than they do about the nature of God or the universe. Notice how she believes that she was raised into a crucifixion pose. Why exactly do Christians think that if Jesus decided to speak to you, he would mock-crucify you first?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
PainRack
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7581
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Location: Singapura

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by PainRack »

Epilepsy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy

Throw in hallucinations that may be reported during a seizure and voila..........
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
User avatar
Akkleptos
Jedi Knight
Posts: 643
Joined: 2008-12-17 02:14am
Location: Between grenades and H1N1.
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Akkleptos »

So, a girl has a brief psychotic episode, and this is important to the world at large... why?

Or worse, as previously mentioned, she's just your average, run-of-the-mill attention seeker.
Darth Wong wrote:If God is omnipotent, why does he always reveal himself to people in ways so subtle that they could be easily mistaken for something else? Why not just show up in her room, and then wave to the security camera while healing someone or bringing someone back from the dead? He had no such compunctions about revealing himself in the Bible.
On the same note, opposite side: I have always thought, about the so-called dæmonic possessions, that if Satan existed at all and were able to possess human bodies, well, he would most likely prefer to possess world leaders, opinion leaders, famous actors and influential people in general, rather than hysterical teenaged girls about whom nobody cares except for her family and friends.

Same goes to the opposite.
Darth Wong wrote:Why exactly do Christians think that if Jesus decided to speak to you, he would mock-crucify you first?
Because they are as twisted as the people who invented the myth that Jesus died for the sins of Mankind? Talk about a subconscious guilt-trip!

EDIT: - 1 "about"
Life in Commodore 64:
10 OPEN "EYES",1,1
20 GET UP$:IF UP$="" THEN 20
30 GOTO BATHROOM
...
GENERATION 29
Don't like what I'm saying?
Take it up with my representative:
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Surlethe »

Darth Wong wrote:If God is omnipotent, why does he always reveal himself to people in ways so subtle that they could be easily mistaken for something else? Why not just show up in her room, and then wave to the security camera while healing someone or bringing someone back from the dead? He had no such compunctions about revealing himself in the Bible.
To me, that's the most compelling argument against theism in general: if a personal God exists objectively, there should be no doubt about his existence. It should be as solidly obvious as this desk in front of me or the sun rising out the window; whether I experience it should not be my choice. In fact, there would probably be an entire field of scientific study - "theology" - filled with academics who make a living studying God and coming up with empirical hypotheses about him.

The fact the experience of God always, without exception, occurs subjectively speaks volumes about the objective truth of the matter.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Samuel »

In fact, there would probably be an entire field of scientific study - "theology" - filled with academics who make a living studying God and coming up with empirical hypotheses about him.
Well, it depends on the god. A deistic one wouldn't have much in that category, a more assholy would have a field dedicated to making it happy. One that answered questions would have a field based on using it as a source, etc.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Darth Wong »

Samuel wrote:Well, it depends on the god. A deistic one wouldn't have much in that category, a more assholy would have a field dedicated to making it happy. One that answered questions would have a field based on using it as a source, etc.
A deistic god is an utterly useless idea, and falls into the same idiot pseudo-philosophy category as studying the machines that are running The Matrix which we live in. Any kind of meaningful God idea must be objective or it's useless too.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Jon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2004-03-02 10:11am
Location: Manchester UK

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Jon »

That seriously has to be an incredibly good troll. I was literally crying with laughter as I got to the part about her arms raising and her head jolting as her body was forced into a mimicry of crucifixion. The whole story and how it is told is just so incredibly ridiculous I can't believe any one could write it with a straight face!
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Darth Wong »

I wonder if you laughed because you tried to picture it, Jon. It seems to me that if this were a face to face discussion, the best way to respond would be to simply say "Was it like this?" and then mimic her description exactly, complete with the staccato speech and the marionette crucifixion. I can think of no better way to show how laughably absurd it is.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Oskuro
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2698
Joined: 2005-05-25 06:10am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Oskuro »

Darth Wong wrote:This woman literally describes voices in her head as proof of an "encounter with Jesus", and you feel you must make some kind of point-by-point response to it? Are you serious?
Furthermore, your rebuttal will be futile, for if she truly believes it to be real, she'll claim to have proof, and if she's consciously lying, she won't back down.

As for onlookers to the debate, the same applies, those who desperately want to believe will not listen to reason, and those who maliciously support the notion for their own purposes will only descend into more virulent fallacious debating tactics.

Personally, whenever I'm confronted with someone claiming something similar, I either visibly roll my eyes and ignore them, or laugh out loud and ignore them, since if they had the capability to be reasonable and use logic, they'd have dissmissed the whole thing by themselves.
unsigned
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by PeZook »

She was obviously visiteg by the Asgard.

Seriously: if she wasn't raised in a Christian household, but instead a Norse one, she'd attribute this experience to Thor paying her a visit.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7954
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by ray245 »

You know, they do seems cute doing all that at times. Their actions keep reminding me of how kids would run around the and really believe people wearing suits is their favourite cartoon character is real.

It seems like a cute thing to do, until you realise how crazy and dangerous it really is.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by Darth Wong »

LordOskuro wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This woman literally describes voices in her head as proof of an "encounter with Jesus", and you feel you must make some kind of point-by-point response to it? Are you serious?
Furthermore, your rebuttal will be futile, for if she truly believes it to be real, she'll claim to have proof, and if she's consciously lying, she won't back down.

As for onlookers to the debate, the same applies, those who desperately want to believe will not listen to reason, and those who maliciously support the notion for their own purposes will only descend into more virulent fallacious debating tactics.

Personally, whenever I'm confronted with someone claiming something similar, I either visibly roll my eyes and ignore them, or laugh out loud and ignore them, since if they had the capability to be reasonable and use logic, they'd have dissmissed the whole thing by themselves.
The response that they find most infuriating is condescension. Nod and smile and say something like "Yes, I'm sure you honestly believe that." You can answer pretty much everything they say with that same line; after all, virtually everything they say is nothing more than bald-faced Argument Through Assertiveness anyway.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Re: Encounters With Jesus; How do you respond?

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Akkleptos wrote:On the same note, opposite side: I have always thought, about the so-called dæmonic possessions, that if Satan existed at all and were able to possess human bodies, well, he would most likely prefer to possess world leaders, opinion leaders, famous actors and influential people in general, rather than hysterical teenaged girls about whom nobody cares except for her family and friends.
I'm sure there are plenty of fundies who believe this is the case. How many exorcisms have famous televangelists who have "gone astray" submitted themselves to in order to restore their public image?
Image
Post Reply