Dark Disciple

[white_rabbit]

Hmm, does it require the user to be near a webway entrance to work?

Webway mechanics aren't exactly clearcut, the Eldar can create temporary gates with something that can fit in the palm of your hand, but I don't recall any indication on whether or not there was a gate in proximity.

I don't think the existence of a permanent gate is required, but the existence of a path to that volume of space probably is. I.e. theres a strand linking System X with the webway, therefore portals can be opened within said unspecified volume of space at will more or less, and Eldar can sit inside the webway at that region and use remote viewing technology (eldar scouts use this, and Dark Eldar use cool floating drones).

Temporary portals are size limited, the Swordwind campaign book limits the Biel-tan Autarch with a chip on his shoulder to superheavy tanks only until he opens up an ancient physical portal.

Is there an actual physical gate that sits there, or are they intangible, invisible portals until activated?

Both as I recall, Dawn of War wasn't too bad, its usually some weird alien menheir or edifice like that.

Ooh yeah, now I remember reading something a long while back about wraithbone armor moving in reaction to its wearer's mind.
In effect it works as power armour, though calling it that sort of cheapens the whole psycho-sorcery theme :p

To be honest, the psycho sorcery theme isn't that prevalent IMO, The eldar stuff is weird, and generally, if not always, waay better than everyone elses kit, regardless of the stats and the Tau-wank, but its still portrayed as technology, its just the eldar have very prominent "magic", it tends to obscure the fact that their basic guys have guns, tanks and other war machines who do the heavy lifting.

Btw, not to be a geeky nitpicker, but IIRC the dead souls in a craftworld's wraithbone bits are referred to as Infinity Circuit. At least, the particular versions of fluff I read called it that.

I've seen both *shrug*. The exodites have the same thing with a more "spiritual" name.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, that rather depends. I'd have a hard time saying that their gravitic tanks, shriuken weapons and plasma weapons aren't technology, even if they have psychic elements (or are even controlled by spirit stones) to them. Proper technological solutions exist for all these items, after all. They may incorporate elements that are warp-tastic, but they do manipulate and use real physics as well.

Eldar tech simulates technology in many ways, and many of the basic things can be replicated (shuriken weapons, for example) and even can be used by humans (I know of at least one short story that had humans using eldar weapons, and it happened in Scourge the HEretic as well - even had some using eldar armor.) but I wouldn't say that in all cases. I don't know if they could replicate eldar power generation, or the means of creating wraithbone, or even eldar starships. Particularily since alot of that requires a rather specialized means of production (Don't they use bonesingers or some sort of psyker to fabricate that stuff?) Waystones/dreamstones arguably would be another thing. I really don't see that as being anything you could "mass produce" in a factory (at least not without using psykers, but humanity isn't even close to being Eldar level psykers, are they?)

Really, if you call it technology, I'd only use the term in the loosest sense - in the same vein as you would use it towards Tyranids "tech" really. Hell, the stuff the Eldar use tends to have more in common with the organic than it does with the mechanical.

An hell, even thinking on it, I'm not sure the stuff the Imperium could duplicate technologically is nearly as versatile/effective as what the Eldar do.

The only real difference in many cases seems to be that their base materials are brought out of cracks in reality with their mind powers. After that, they become very much technological devices.

As I recall, the Eldar don't have computers. That's a rather significant difference (and limitation) to their tech.

Regardless, it fills the role of technology in their culture, and is just as adaptable and useable as technology is in most settings. Certainly their psychic technology is capable of accomplishing most of the things human technology in 40K can, and more often than not, does so better.

Yes, but my point isn't so much that its not technology as it isn't directly analogous to mechanical technology. Duplicating Eldar tech in anything save the most basic form would require certain prerequisites (enhanced psychic abilility for one) that would mean any attempt to "fabricate" it in the way you would, say, fabricate a bit of machinery is bound to fail. (Such as trying to mechanically replicate Tyranid regenerative or adaptive abilities into machinery, ,for example. That would be Necron level tech.)

[NecronLord]

Cykeisme: I hope you don't mind that I don't reply to you in detail, it's not that I'm ignoring you, it's that WR seems to have said about everything I'd say. The mechanics of the webway are almost entirely unknown. But we certainly know that their ships and suchlike contain web-portals, and they seem to be able to produce them. As mentioned, wraith-gates are portable ones.

There are limitations (WR came up with one I wasn't aware of) there of course, but we can only really speculate on what they are.

Of course, if DoW is to be taken as evidence, and I'm somewhat tempted, then they can definately create web portals.

The web interconnects some new planets too, where the Eldar Craftworlds have established new colonies. The Eldar have also discovered and made contact with far flung colonies which survived the fall. These pre-Fall survivors are called exodites

The way it says 'new planets' I would think it is intended to mean that the Eldar have actually set up new gateways on worlds previously untouched, but one could assume it merely means Maiden worlds here, and that the gates on them were built by the Eldar Empire.

Eldar tech simulates technology in many ways, and many of the basic things can be replicated (shuriken weapons, for example) and even can be used by humans (I know of at least one short story that had humans using eldar weapons, and it happened in Scourge the HEretic as well - even had some using eldar armor.) but I wouldn't say that in all cases. I don't know if they could replicate eldar power generation, or the means of creating wraithbone, or even eldar starships. Particularily since alot of that requires a rather specialized means of production (Don't they use bonesingers or some sort of psyker to fabricate that stuff?) Waystones/dreamstones arguably would be another thing. I really don't see that as being anything you could "mass produce" in a factory (at least not without using psykers, but humanity isn't even close to being Eldar level psykers, are they?)

There's not much to say here, other than 'I agree with you.'

Back in 2nd edition, I think it was mentioned that waystones come from hazardous expedtions into the eye to find them, where they're naturally occuring ('tears of Isha' which might gel nicely with 'Nurgle keeps Isha in a cage' in the new edition).

Really, if you call it technology, I'd only use the term in the loosest sense - in the same vein as you would use it towards Tyranids "tech" really. Hell, the stuff the Eldar use tends to have more in common with the organic than it does with the mechanical.

An hell, even thinking on it, I'm not sure the stuff the Imperium could duplicate technologically is nearly as versatile/effective as what the Eldar do.

Agreed, simply because the Eldar have had far longer to work out the details of their technologies

As I recall, the Eldar don't have computers. That's a rather significant difference (and limitation) to their tech.

I find that hard to credit; they must certainly have computational devices (sighting systems and genetic scanners are mentioned in their weapons description for the 3rd edition codex, for example)

Most importantly, they must have had sophisticated computational-equivalents in order to build robot armies capable of functioning without direction.

It is possible, I'd think, that they have nothing humans would recognise as a computer (err, cogitator) or perhaps not have programmable computers (this might be workable, if one is able to rely on wraithbone components to interpret psychic commands, forming some kind of unnatural language programming) per se. But they clearly have devices that fill many of the functions of computers.

Yes, but my point isn't so much that its not technology as it isn't directly analogous to mechanical technology. Duplicating Eldar tech in anything save the most basic form would require certain prerequisites (enhanced psychic abilility for one) that would mean any attempt to "fabricate" it in the way you would, say, fabricate a bit of machinery is bound to fail. (Such as trying to mechanically replicate Tyranid regenerative or adaptive abilities into machinery, ,for example. That would be Necron level tech.)

Absolutely. Of course, I would call many things used by the tyranids 'technology' or at least 'biotechnology' too.

[Serafina]

Eldar actually have "crystal based electronics". The Empire has them, too.
It is never said what this actually means, but its basically EXTREME miniturisation, including super-efficient power-sources, durability and the like.

This is consistent with most of the Eldar/Empire technology - you can have extremly complicated devices at EVERY size (digi-grade weapons, gaunts EW-weapon from Necropolis).

However, this is from a somewhat dubious source ("40K bible") - not an official document, IIRC.

[Connor MacLeod]

Cykeisme: I hope you don't mind that I don't reply to you in detail, it's not that I'm ignoring you, it's that WR seems to have said about everything I'd say. The mechanics of the webway are almost entirely unknown. But we certainly know that their ships and suchlike contain web-portals, and they seem to be able to produce them. As mentioned, wraith-gates are portable ones.

There are limitations (WR came up with one I wasn't aware of) there of course, but we can only really speculate on what they are.

Of course, if DoW is to be taken as evidence, and I'm somewhat tempted, then they can definately create web portals.

I'd guess that if they could, they probably would be very cautious about deploying them, since allowing anyone to get their hands on one would be a huge problme for the Eldar (especially Chaos - I can certainly see them wanting to avoid that) Hell, we know they willingly shut down/destroy warp portals than usually allow others to use them.

The way it says 'new planets' I would think it is intended to mean that the Eldar have actually set up new gateways on worlds previously untouched, but one could assume it merely means Maiden worlds here, and that the gates on them were built by the Eldar Empire.

I vaguely recall other sourecs mentioning colonies, though I'm not sure if I've posted those yet or not. I'll have to do some digging.

There's not much to say here, other than 'I agree with you.'

Back in 2nd edition, I think it was mentioned that waystones come from hazardous expedtions into the eye to find them, where they're naturally occuring ('tears of Isha' which might gel nicely with 'Nurgle keeps Isha in a cage' in the new edition).

I can't remember offhand evidence either way, but I've generally assumed they can make them, since its implied they make the dreamstones and the waystones are related. It could be that they do both if the means of creating waystones is difficult and/or time consuming (or the ability to do so is rare?) and that the rate of production is slower than their population growth. In a way, waystones seem to suffer from the same thing as Space Marines (They're rare but somehow they still seem to keep going through them like water that they need to be able to produce them to some degree ot keep from losing them.)

Agreed, simply because the Eldar have had far longer to work out the details of their technologies

Not only that, but they've learned the folly of messing with the warp and put more effort into safeguarding it. (That includes both the webway and things like power generation.) But it also requires a more willing use of psykers, and the Imperium's mindset really isn't going in that way (yet).

If anything, I tend to attirbute failures to properly utilize Eldar tech more due to Imperial arrogance than anything else (up to and including the Emperor. Especially the Emperor.)

I find that hard to credit; they must certainly have computational devices (sighting systems and genetic scanners are mentioned in their weapons description for the 3rd edition codex, for example)

Do you have those quotes handy (before I try digging to see if I have them) and are there any other sources offhand you could think of? Not that I think you are lying, but "scanners and sights" don't necesarily mean computers. I suppose it might be possible given the early Rogue Trader era stuff, back then things were alot more "generalized" (shuriken weapons weren't restricted to "eldar only, for example" nor was gravtech.)

Nowadays I vaguely recall they use alot of their own "spirits" to supplement those functions. as I remember Eldar vessels tend to have their own infinity circuits as does the Craftworlds and really high end stuff like Exarch armour (and I'm willing to bet the Avatar of Khaine runs along those lines too.) And the Wraithguard of course.

Most importantly, they must have had sophisticated computational-equivalents in order to build robot armies capable of functioning without direction.

they can do this? Where are you pulling this from, if I may ask?

The big reason I tend to doubt them having computers is the fact that the Eldar, despite having a low birthrate and considering their numbers to be valuable (EG Mr Eldrad "Sacrifice millions of huumans to save one Eldar" Ultrhan) and the risk from Slaanesh they face, would logically want to deploy any sort of automated or robotic troops en-masse if they had them. That doesn't conclusively rule out the possibility, of course, but its a rather hard thing to excuse (I don't think you could accuse the Eldar of stupidity nor laziness the way you could, say, the Empire for not properly using automted/robotic tech we know they have.)

It is possible, I'd think, that they have nothing humans would recognise as a computer (err, cogitator) or perhaps not have programmable computers (this might be workable, if one is able to rely on wraithbone components to interpret psychic commands, forming some kind of unnatural language programming) per se. But they clearly have devices that fill many of the functions of computers.

Perhaps, but none save the tau (and perhaps the Necrons) have anything we really recognize as a computer. Imperial "macine spirits/AIs" tend to be rather odd and alot of their "robotics" seems to have certain elements (even if minimal ones) of organic components. Plus they all tend to be very warp-linked.

Absolutely. Of course, I would call many things used by the tyranids 'technology' or at least 'biotechnology' too.

True, but I tend to call it warp magic.

[NecronLord]

Do you have those quotes handy (before I try digging to see if I have them) and are there any other sources offhand you could think of? Not that I think you are lying, but "scanners and sights" don't necesarily mean computers. I suppose it might be possible given the early Rogue Trader era stuff, back then things were alot more "generalized" (shuriken weapons weren't restricted to "eldar only, for example" nor was gravtech.)

Those bits are from Codex Eldar 3rd Ed p46&47. Like I said, computational devices, not necesserily flexible, programmable computers. But you have to have some (by our standards, impressive) computation capacity to compare the genes of a weilder with a set template.

Nowadays I vaguely recall they use alot of their own "spirits" to supplement those functions. as I remember Eldar vessels tend to have their own infinity circuits as does the Craftworlds and really high end stuff like Exarch armour (and I'm willing to bet the Avatar of Khaine runs along those lines too.) And the Wraithguard of course.

Indeed. There's even a bit in the 2nd ed Codex Imperialis about the spirits in wraithguard providing 'technical feedback' to the eldar that maintain them.

they can do this? Where are you pulling this from, if I may ask?

The big reason I tend to doubt them having computers is the fact that the Eldar, despite having a low birthrate and considering their numbers to be valuable (EG Mr Eldrad "Sacrifice millions of huumans to save one Eldar" Ultrhan) and the risk from Slaanesh they face, would logically want to deploy any sort of automated or robotic troops en-masse if they had them. That doesn't conclusively rule out the possibility, of course, but its a rather hard thing to excuse (I don't think you could accuse the Eldar of stupidity nor laziness the way you could, say, the Empire for not properly using automted/robotic tech we know they have.)

Took me a while to find an actual reference to this. I thought it was considerably more widespread than that.

"A long, long time ago, over a thousand of your generations ago in fact, our people ruled across the heavens. Few races could oppose our might, and of those most ancient and malignant powers that could, all were dormant at that time and we were wise enough to let them slumber. Unlike your own folk, I might add, who could well bring about the doom of us all with their blundering around. Be that as it may, there were none who could defy our will. We spread across the glittering stars bringing glory and beauty to countless worlds, much as you humans bring pollution and ugliness to the stars with your presence now. There was nothing we could not achieve, for our minds and our technology were perfectly wedded together. A mere thought could be captured and harnessed by our wonderful machines, so that we ourselves did not have to sully ourselves with physical labour. We constructed artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us."

"As you might understand, we did not sit idly by while our creations conquered the galaxy in our name. Of course not! We dedicated ourselves to much higher pursuits: the perfection of literature, of art, of dance, of sport and of acting. Our striving for the perfect aesthetic became enshrined within our culture, our religion and our politics.

Clearly something created by them (so not their own souls) capable of conquest in their name. I assume it's robots, but I suppose (especially with the implied harlequin interference in the Tau's history) that it could be organic creatures. However, Vect later speaks of intelligent aliens like humans, orks and kroot in quite different terms.

As for why they don't use such things now; well, they do have some capacity to make automated war machines, witness support platforms, which require a minimum of direction. I expect the Eldar Empire's armies probably (possibly with some humanoids added in) resembled support platforms of various types, capable of more autonomous actions.

I can see why the craftworld eldar wouldn't necesserily want to rely on such things again; not only does partaking of battle themselves prevent them from becoming decadant and complacent, but it also provides an outlet for their natural violence. In much the same way, the exodites are all about resisting decadance via hard work, and would eschew such things. That said, Iyanden in particular, would seem to be in a position to not be fussy about such things, and it has after all, only been six years; not really long enough to completely re-design an army.

The Dark Eldar, logically, would use such things (though their bloodthirstyness provides them with plenty of reason to go to battle in person). Indeed, the Talos is rather like this, but with a captured and tormented victim in it. That said, their industry does not seem to be well developed - their cruelty (and probably their anarchy) seems to get in the way of practicality. I recall one short story with them actually having humans toil away on treadmills. So it may be that they can't really produce such things in large numbers.