Autism & Vaccines - Comments & Emails

[Zablorg]

And now we find that the whole damn scare was all a bunch of nothing.

[Samurai Rafiki]

I think I've expanded a little beyond the intent of my original response. All I've really read has been books and articles aimed at teachers designed to give them an overview of the disease while mostly giving information on how to deal with them in a classroom. What I intended to do was to defend a traumatized mother I thought was being villified by trying to illustrate her point of view and the point of view of many of the parents driving this campaign against the vaccines; not to become the advocate for the position. What I've heard here in the way of studies has been one preservative removed from the vaccines that failed to lower the occurance of the disease and other assurances that studies have been done to prove that vaccinations don't cause autism. The problem is that the pharmaceutical industry is, pound for pound, the most ripe for corruption and the one most often slapped with crushing lawsuits if something goes wrong. Whereas other scientists have an imperative to objectively arrive at conclusions whatever they may be, conflicting political and economic concerns in the pharmaceutical industry muddy the waters enough that the parents are scared. Here's an idea, why not go to one of these third world countries where vaccinations are the exception rather than the rule and perform an intensive study there. If autism is as prevalent in the population of Africa and the more remote tribes of South America, then you've got your answer. Do Christian Scientists refuse vaccinations along with the other medical treatments? How about the Amish? I'm sure we could find a demographic slice of America without vaccinations and test for autism in those communities and that would help clear things up.

In the meantime, cut the grieving parents some slack for their irrationality. Fundamentalists see the wealth of information available and turn away from it back to their Jesus themed circle jerk. The parents of autistic children are given almost no information, just a kid they don't know anymore, a pamphlet that outlines how screwed they are, and a boot in the ass. The teachers are given more children than they could manage even if the children would speak to them and told to get them to pass standardized tests or face punishments from a well intended but piteously underfunded bill. Meanwhile their kids are being given immunizations they don't understand that probably aren't but just might be triggering the disease. It might not be the Ignaz Semmelweiz solution, but it would do everyone a lot of good if studies were conducted to prove the correlation rather than disprove it, because the way it looks right now the scientific community and the pharmaceutical companies paying their salaries and heading the regulatory committees in charge of this stuff aren't taking them seriously. This creates a community primed for conspiracy theories, especially when treatments like this are more effective than anything they're being given.

Once again, there probably isn't anything to this theory, but the parents and teachers feel like they're being patronized and ridiculed, so cut them some slack.

[Samuel]

Once again, there probably isn't anything to this theory, but the parents and teachers feel like they're being patronized and ridiculed, so cut them some slack.

No. Vaccines are essential to keep people from dying. Hurt feeling don't rate that high. Seriously, once the number of people vaccinated drops below a certain point, herd immunity stops working and people who couldn't get the vaccine are in danger of getting the disease. Me for example- I was alergic to the whopping cough vaccine. It turns out the disease really sucks. Fortunately I got it when I was young enough but not too old.

[Cairber]

Should we continue to cut them slack when previously scarce diseases return and people die because of their inability to look at the research and realize the errors in their thinking?

HIb returns and killed unvaccinated child

Measles outbreak of 131 cases

[SirNitram]

In the meantime, cut the grieving parents some slack for their irrationality.

No.

Absolutely not.

Not until this crap ends.

Not until the groups with Autism in their name allow an Autistic, or at least a fuckin' Aspergers, person into their decisionmaking.

Not until it is no longer okay to talk about killing your child in front of the child, because she's autistic. Not until having that in a video is a sign it's a documentary on crazy fuckers, not 'illustrating the damage Autism does to families'. You know what else damages a family? Saying you'd kill yourself and your child, but the reason you didn't is that the 'normal' kid was also in the car seat on that bridge.

Not until it's not okay to refer to us as Tabula Rasa, soulless, or make comparisons to the faux-humans once called Changelings.

Not until the day the man who pioneered electro-shock, violence, screaming in the face, and restraints heavy enough to kill as 'treatment for Autism' is locked the fuck away.

Those are my conditions.

[Big Orange]

This kind of ignorance and misinformation around the MMR jab is quite dangerous, and has likely claimed the lives of small children according to this BBC article:

'Unprecedented' rise in measles

There is an "unprecedented increase" in measles cases in England and Wales, experts report.

Data from the Health Protection Agency showed there were 1,217 cases of measles from January to November 2008, the highest figure for over a decade.

And 75% of the 115 cases diagnosed in November were outside the traditional hotspot of London - in the north west, west midlands and south east.

The HPA's Dr Mary Ramsay said the rise was due to "relatively low" MMR uptake.

The number of measles cases in November 2008 was the same as was seen in the whole of 1996.

And even before numbers for December have been recorded, the figures show there were more measles cases in 2008 than in any of the previous 12 years.

Despite the recent surge of cases outside London, over half of the cases last year were in the capital.

As well as outbreaks in nurseries, primary and secondary schools, there have been outbreaks in traveller communities in the west midlands and south east.

The HPA says too few children are receiving both doses of the combined measles, mumps and rubella jab.

Sixty per cent of cases were seen in children aged under 15.

'Not fully protected'

Earlier this week the UK was named as one of the worst countries in Europe for measles, with case levels dashing global hopes of eradicating the disease by 2010.

A Lancet study said that in 2006-7 most of the 12,000 cases in Europe were found in the UK and four other nations.

Dr Mary Ramsay, an immunisation expert at the HPA, said: "We are still experiencing an unprecedented increase in measles cases across the England and Wales.

"This continued rise is due to relatively low MMR vaccine uptake over the past decade and there are now a large number of children who are not fully protected with MMR.

"This means that measles, which is highly infectious, is spreading easily among these unvaccinated children."

She added: "The HPA is concerned that we may see measles epidemics take hold.

"We again are urging parents to get their children vaccinated. Although MMR coverage is starting to improve, we cannot stress enough that measles is serious and in some cases it can be fatal. Delaying immunisation puts children at risk."

Dr Ramsay said around eight out of 10 children were now receiving one dose of MMR by their second birthday.

But she added: "We shouldn't forget that the children who weren't vaccinated many years ago are at real risk."

Serious illness

A Department of Health spokesman said an MMR catch-up programme, which began last August, aimed to help local primary care trusts to identify children who had not been given the jab.

In Scotland, the number of children receiving at least one dose of the MMR jab by the age of five has reached the target of 95% for the first time in December. Northern Ireland saw just four cases of measles last year.

Although most children recover from measles, it can be a serious illness.

One in 10 cases requires hospital treatment and it can lead to pneumonia, brain damage and even death.

I mean look at how steeply that graph climbs up!

[Darth Wong]

In the meantime, cut the grieving parents some slack for their irrationality. Fundamentalists see the wealth of information available and turn away from it back to their Jesus themed circle jerk.

It's great that you're so understanding, but parenthood is a huge and solemn responsibility. If you're not ready for it, or you're not willing to work hard to learn the things you need to know, then you shouldn't become a parent.

There is absolutely no reason to cut any parent slack for not bothering to inform themselves. They have utterly failed in their obligations and responsibilities to their children, and none of your excuses will change that fact. You are acting as if these obligations and responsibilities are somehow unfair.

[Kodiak]

It's great that you're so understanding, but parenthood is a huge and solemn responsibility. If you're not ready for it, or you're not willing to work hard to learn the things you need to know, then you shouldn't become a parent.

There is absolutely no reason to cut any parent slack for not bothering to inform themselves. They have utterly failed in their obligations and responsibilities to their children, and none of your excuses will change that fact. You are acting as if these obligations and responsibilities are somehow unfair.

I admit, I had no idea how hard being a parent is until I became one- but I stepped up to the responsibilities. How any parent could remove their child from a vaccine schedule approved at the highest levels of government based on e-mail forwards and rumors is beyond my comprehension. In my opinion, not vaccinating based on rumors borders on reckless endangerment of children and puts my own daughter at risk. We had good friends with a daughter the same age as ours. When we found out they didn't vaccinate, we expressed our concern and let them know that we were going to suspend play dates until they changed their minds. They were understanding of our choice, and we were glad we did. Several months later their little girl caught Rubella (German Measles) and was laid up for almost 2 weeks in pain. Also the husband caught it from his daughter, despite his own previous vaccination. Thankfully, after that scare they decided to get back on the vaccination schedule.

[Surlethe]

I got another sob story on Saturday from a state and a half away. I'm guessing this column is making the anti-vaccine community rounds. I don't want to post all of it, but it starts out ...

Neal,

You are young and trust the established medical community. I was the same way once. No, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I do not believe in Area 51 and Bigfoot, etc. I do believe, without a doubt believe that vaccines played a major role in my son developing autism.

She goes on to tell how her son was injected with the wrong vaccines, and then injected with the correct ones, when he was 8 mo. She also gave me some sources I'm chasing up on; apparently, she's connected with the "Autism Research Institute".

[Cairber]

Injected with "the wrong vaccines"? How does that work? She didn't even check what they were injecting in to her kids?

I don't know about anyone else here, but, when my kids go in for shots there is a specific procedure: I am given the CDC forms describing the disease, the vaccine, the risks, etc; then I am shown the vaccines in the tray and asked to sign the stub piece of the label that they pull off and stick in my child's file.

I would love to hear the whole situation.

[Surlethe]

Injected with "the wrong vaccines"? How does that work? She didn't even check what they were injecting in to her kids?

This was all of eighteen years ago (or so she said). Apparently, the nurse was having a shitty day and gave her kid some other kid's vaccines:

Back when I never questioned a pediatrician (or their nurses) I took my healthy, 8 mo. old son, Mark, in for his routine well baby check up. He had just gotten over a cold. He was pronounced healthy enough to get his third round of vaccines. The nurse injected my son and proceeded to calm his cries by saying, "There, there, Eric. I said, "Eric?" And she responded, "Isn't this Eric?" The look on her face made my blood run cold. "No," I said, "That's Mark." I knew what had happened and I wondered what the hell she had just injected into my son. She ran out, the doctor ran in with his huge tome. They were obviously panicky. The vaccine my son received was someone else's MMR which he should not have gotten until he was 15-18 mo. old. He pronounced that there would be no lasting immunity and no adverse reactions aside from the normal ones and that I wouldn't be charged for the shot. Damn right I wouldn't be charged for the shot. Then he said that my son should also receive his regular vaccines. (This is where, if I knew then what I know now, I would have declined and walked out.) In addition to the MMR, my son also received a HIB#3 and a DPT#3, seven total vaccines. Too many for a young immune system recovering from a viral infection. This was the last time my son went to that particular doctor, as we were in the process of moving. Too bad we didn't move sooner. The symptoms and quirks that eventually added up to a diagnosis of aspergers/high functioning autism took longer than the statute of limitations for someone to figure out, so I have no legal recourse against a nurse who was having a bad day (Going through a divorce). She shouldn't have been allowed near children if she didn't have it together.

[Cairber]

The only reason the MMR is given later is because it is shown to be significantly more effective if given at 15 months and not earlier (8 months and 12 months are common ages that were studied, but they both demonstrated much lower efficacy for the vaccine). I think her lack of knowledge on that particular facet of the MMR vaccine might have made her predisposed to blaming that incident when she looked back and tried to decide when her sons' symptoms began.

one such study

[Pablo Sanchez]

I think I've expanded a little beyond the intent of my original response. All I've really read has been books and articles aimed at teachers designed to give them an overview of the disease while mostly giving information on how to deal with them in a classroom. What I intended to do was to defend a traumatized mother I thought was being villified by trying to illustrate her point of view and the point of view of many of the parents driving this campaign against the vaccines; not to become the advocate for the position.

No, you're tacitly advocating their position with this mealy-mouthed "more study is needed" bullshit. The studies have been done, the conclusions are clear. Vaccination and autism have no causal relationship whatsoever. None. Nada. Only one study has ever found a link between them, and this study's result were recently discovered to be non-repeatable and probably fraudulent. The theory that autism is caused by infant vaccination has the same scientific validity as the theory that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones.

What I've heard here in the way of studies has been one preservative removed from the vaccines that failed to lower the occurance of the disease and other assurances that studies have been done to prove that vaccinations don't cause autism. The problem is that the pharmaceutical industry is, pound for pound, the most ripe for corruption and the one most often slapped with crushing lawsuits if something goes wrong. Whereas other scientists have an imperative to objectively arrive at conclusions whatever they may be, conflicting political and economic concerns in the pharmaceutical industry muddy the waters enough that the parents are scared.

The pharmaceutical giants do encourage their scientists to present points of view favorable to business. That said, the FDA and NIH are both independent of the companies that produce vaccines, and are designed to be adversarial with them.

Here's an idea, why not go to one of these third world countries where vaccinations are the exception rather than the rule and perform an intensive study there. If autism is as prevalent in the population of Africa and the more remote tribes of South America, then you've got your answer.

No you don't, because your unvaccinated "control group" has a lifestyle so dramatically different in virtually every way from American society that your study's results would be utterly useless.

Do Christian Scientists refuse vaccinations along with the other medical treatments? How about the Amish? I'm sure we could find a demographic slice of America without vaccinations and test for autism in those communities and that would help clear things up.

Three problems. First, in both cases the sample size is probably too small to be meaningful. Second, the Amish are an inbred genetic bottleneck, which would distort the numbers even worse. Third, these groups are both extremely unlikely to seek medical analysis and diagnosis of autistic children, so that the number of reported cases would be lower than the number of actual cases.

Once again, there probably isn't anything to this theory, but the parents and teachers feel like they're being patronized and ridiculed, so cut them some slack.

They deserve to be patronized and ridiculed, because they're wrong and their obstinacy puts their children and the children of others at increased risk for no reason. You need to understand that children will die of easily preventable diseases if the anti-vaccination movement has its way. In all honesty, even if we accept the completely false notion that vaccines are causing autism, it is still preferable to have this relatively small number of children develop autism, than to cease vaccinations and return to the way things were before the campaigns to eradicate diseases like smallpox, polio, etc., with large numbers of children dying in infancy or being crippled for life.

[Wyrm]

The beatdown is over, but I could not let the following pass without comment, because ASUIdiot repeated it:

It might seem a little nonsensical for the moment, but Ignaz Semmelweis saved a lot of lives with procedures and precautions that were similarly nonsensical for the time.

In the case of Ignaz Semmelweis, the effect was immediate and dramatic — in the space of literally weeks, the rate of puerperal fever fell from 10% to below 5%. Even if it was ignored by the medical establishment, cutting incidents by more than 50% in weeks is damned impressive. Semmelweis's practice had a mechanism that his data was one of the key observations that lead to the germ theory of disease ("cadaverous material" = GERMS!). His practice was not nonsensical (it was based on a mechanism of how mothers got puerperal fever), and furthermore it fucking worked.

The anti-vaccination woo-woos have literally NOTHING. Their only coherent theory (thimerosol poisoning) has been absolutely demolished, and even their "probative study" has been shown to not only be unreplicatable, but an outright fraud. The increase in autism is due completely to the fact that medicine has refined their procedures for detecting all grades of the disorder — some children who used to be simply "difficult" and "wierd" are now "autistic".

As to any "wait-and-see" shit spewed by the anti-vaccination woo-woos… it kills babies! Together with hygine and good nutrition, vaccines are hands-down the most striking public health success story. Children die of childhood diseases, cupcake.

[Junghalli]

I think the core problem here is that a lot of people lack the scientific knowledge and critical thinking skills to critically evaluate this kind of stuff and have zero trust in the public institutions to protect them.

It probably just seems so plausible to a lot of people that Evil Big Pharma is pumping kids full of brain poison while the government is bribed to look the other way. After all, they've seen plenty of examples of government incompetence and indifference and corporations fucking people over to make a bigger profit. They figure of course if vaccines caused autism big pharma would do everything in their power to pretend there wasn't a problem because if they admitted it they might lose business. They lack the scientific knowledge and/or critical thinking skills to critically evaluate the idea, and it fits with their notions of how big pharma companies are probably run by soulless ghouls who'd cheerfully shoot up newborn babies with rat poison and radioactive waste if they could somehow make money on it and the government would let them. OMG, it's just like what happened with tobacco!!! Remember how they denied that was dangerous too!!!

I bet a lot of these anti-vaccine types also think herbal medicine or homeopathy is wicked awsum and big pharma is just trying to surpress it because they're worried it'll turn out to be better than their pills and they won't make money anymore.

[Samuel]

I bet a lot of these anti-vaccine types also think herbal medicine or homeopathy is wicked awsum and big pharma is just trying to surpress it because they're worried it'll turn out to be better than their pills and they won't make money anymore.

If it works, the companies copy it and make a medical form of it. Don't tell me they are too stupid to understand why we use pills instead of plants... okay, silly question.

Seriously, if they could completely and utterly destroy the competition with miracle cures, do you doubt they would go for it? They are motivated my making money/crushing the competition.

[Junghalli]

If it works, the companies copy it and make a medical form of it. Don't tell me they are too stupid to understand why we use pills instead of plants... okay, silly question.

A lot of these people tend to think if it's natural it must be better, and if it's artificial it's probably bad for you. A lot of people are way too deep into the whole naturalistic fallacy conflation of natural with good to appreciate the fact that effective herbal remedies are nothing more than less pure drugs. The vaccines = autism thing I think fits perfectly into the ethos of the lunatic fringe of the "organic" movement. Vaccines are a product of the evil big corporations and government, so they're probably bad for you.

Seriously, if they could completely and utterly destroy the competition with miracle cures, do you doubt they would go for it? They are motivated my making money/crushing the competition.

But if it comes from a plant that means anyone can get it by growing it in their garden! The evil big pharma companies can't control the supply and they'll be fucked!

Of course in reality if it was cheaper to get them from plants, yeah, we'd be doing that.

[PeZook]

Seriously, if they could completely and utterly destroy the competition with miracle cures, do you doubt they would go for it? They are motivated my making money/crushing the competition.

It's conspiracy theory thinking. There was an inventor in Poland who claimed he invented a miraculous bumper (and also that modern physics had it all wrong, but that's besides the point), which could make a 60 kmph car colission not only survivable, but utterly harmless.

He didn't want to subject this miracle invention to testing by auto companies, because he said they'd just lock it up in a safe somewhere. Because they're EVIL.

Think about it.

"Hey guys! We can totally release cars in 2009 that would completely ace the competition! Our company can become dominant on the world market! We can save countless millions on developing safety systems! It's going to be glorious!"

"Nah. Let's just lock this thing up. Nobody needs a safe car, anyways."

Can you see it? I can't, somehow.

[Samurai Rafiki]

Okay, damn. Check my original post. I was responding to the mother in the OP being bashed for being just as distraught as she had every right to be and mentioned the connection between vaccinations and autism only in passing, but that's what got picked up on because some people saw a conflicting point of view and smelled blood in the water. As far as that goes, the idea I was trying to get back to with 'cut the parents some slack' was that the "haha look at the superstitious wacky parents endangering everyone because they're afraid of vaccinations" approach is counter-productive. The parents and teachers involved feel like soldiers being told to charge past a pillbox that the guys giving the orders have assured them is empty. They've taken thermal scans, they've poked at satellite pictures, they're sure the pillbox is empty, but it's the parents for the most part that are running past it.

You're equating hysterical ignorance with malicious dismissal of facts and they're not the same. The doctor who falsified his study and started this mess deserves to be villified. But the mother who said her daughter was just gone, and then heard through the grapevine that it might be the the vaccines her daughter was given, and then was snatched up by this ultimately detrimental movement, and then was too afraid to vaccinate the rest of her kids is not a bad person for being misled and she's not a bad person for not knowing her daughter anymore when her daughter's personality changes overnight.

There's a difference between "they'll lock up my invention" conspiracy theory thinking and "they're covering up their wrong-doing" conspiracy theory thinking. New inventions would add to the asset column. Lawsuits go into the liabilities column.

The FDA is a bloated, beurocratic cesspool. Some drugs are put through the wringer, but others are fast-tracked through the approval process and end up killing people. And when the bad drugs are finally pulled from the market, the companies that produced them get bitchslapped with lawsuits. Vaccines may not cause autism, but you don't think there was a CEO or two who shit himself when this scare started thinking that some study was going to come out and the MMR vaccine would go the way of Vioxx? How about the prevailing position of the FDA that prevents Americans from going across the border to Canada to get medications that are hundreds of times less expensive? I suppose, to the Canadian members, there's a giant mixing pot in the middle of Toronto where you guys stew up all your medications, and the FDA figured out your little scheme and put a stop to it, much to your chagrin? Of course not. Drug companies can't survive on what they get from countries where the cost of prescription drugs is regulated, and the FDA knows that. The prescription drug industry is hardly the most well oiled example of scientific peer review correcting mistakes, and one would think that the objective of the FDA is to hold the drugs until the scientists finish their bickering and a conclusion is reached. Obviously, they're finding that role a little difficult to manage, and it shows, and it leads to ultimately baseless scares like this one.

As for the herbal home remedies vs drugs thing, the gleuten-free diet is actually very effective for autistic kids. On the diet, the aides spend their time working on concepts like fractions and drawing inferences from their reading. Off the diet, the aides have to spend more time working on concepts like sitting still. Yeah it was proposed by scientists, but do the parents know this? Of course not. It sounds like something that someone stumbled across that works while the scientists patted themselves on the back for figuring out how to diagnose the disease even sooner. There is an utter lack of trust when it comes to this issue between the public and the regulatory commissions, but that's not the fault of the public, that's because that adversarial relationship between the FDA and the drug companies hasn't been as adversarial as it should be of late.

Once again, I got drawn into being the advocate for the position, I find it untenable, and honestly I didn't like the position much to begin with. But I'm sticking with the parents. They're dealing with some tough shit, and some of them have jumped on this misguided bandwagon. But the trust they used to have in the institutions designed to protect them has been frittered away, so when the FDA says there's no problem and some of them stick their heads in the sand, that's not a completely reprehensible recourse. Does it cause more problems than it (doesn't) solve? Probably. But that still doesn't mean that they deserve to be ridiculed, especially when that same type of ridicule is about as effective at getting vaccinations started again as their head burying.

[Edit: assets/liabilities]

[TheLostVikings]

Drug companies can't survive on what they get from countries where the cost of prescription drugs is regulated, and the FDA knows that.

...

Um, what? Where I live all drugs (prescription or otherwise) are strictly price regulated, but for some reason our drug companies doesn't go out of business. Weird, huh?

[SirNitram]

She also gave me some sources I'm chasing up on; apparently, she's connected with the "Autism Research Institute".

Oh. Those looneys.

Complaining about Child Services intervention due to 'treatments not approved by the medical establishment'. On a long peice on how to overcome Autism. These fancy-pants doctors with their peer review and rules are against The Cause!

They embrace DAN!(Defeat Autism Now) pretty strongly. I Do Not Like Curebies. They do not want to treat autism as a sane person would think of it; allow them to function in society. They want to simply remove us. Since we are not people, soulless, life without life, etc, this is not equated to most times an undesirable group is stated to need to be 'cured' their unifying thing. Yea, I'm sure that life would be easier for me if I was neurotypical. You can say the same about being gay. Shall we 'cure' them, then? Hey, blacks have a built-in societal disadvantage! See where I'm going?

And just to round it out, they profess a combination of diet and ABA. Even if it's not the IBI version, ABA is built to make it clear that existing as you are is Not Right. That there will be Punishment if you dare demonstrate difference. It might not be electroshock and physical blows. But the outcome of such psychological conditioning is the same. Burnout. Just without the horrible sight of what happens when you tell an older autistic the word 'restraint'.

[Wyrm]

You're equating hysterical ignorance with malicious dismissal of facts and they're not the same. The doctor who falsified his study and started this mess deserves to be villified. But the mother who said her daughter was just gone, and then heard through the grapevine that it might be the the vaccines her daughter was given, and then was snatched up by this ultimately detrimental movement, and then was too afraid to vaccinate the rest of her kids is not a bad person for being misled and she's not a bad person for not knowing her daughter anymore when her daughter's personality changes overnight.

We're not villifying her for being snatched up in a woo-woo conspiracy, we're villifying her for treating her recently diagnosed child as if it were a zombie... a mere shell of the former person that was no doubt there. She's treating her own child as if she were a stranger... a changeling... a creature. That's shit.

And this "parent" is being stupid for not looking at the reasons why we vaccinate: childhood diseases are serious business. She's being stupid because she believes that Big Pharma is making boatloads of money off vaccines as grounding her delusions without even finding out if the claim is true: the profit margin on vaccines is actually very slim — that's why certain vaccines are getting hard to get hold of.

There's a difference between "they'll lock up my invention" conspiracy theory thinking and "they're covering up their wrong-doing" conspiracy theory thinking. New inventions would add to the asset column. Lawsuits go into the liabilities column.

Actually, no. There is no difference between the two, but for the particular content. Remember, vaccines are used by every developed country in the world. If there's something wrong with them, sooner or later, someone's going to notice. Someone is going to forward probative evidence for the problem, and that study is going to eventually be replicated and verified. People are going to notice this, especially if the onset of autism after vaccination is as prompt as the anti-vaccers claim.

This is what turns the vaccine conspiracy into a Grand Conspiracy; so many people are involved in the conspiracy that it collapses under its own weight. It's precisely the same problem with 9/11 truthers — only the particular content is different.

Vaccines may not cause autism, but you don't think there was a CEO or two who shit himself when this scare started thinking that some study was going to come out and the MMR vaccine would go the way of Vioxx? How about the prevailing position of the FDA that prevents Americans from going across the border to Canada to get medications that are hundreds of times less expensive?

The Vioxx debacle is world's different from the MMR nonsense. Once discovered, the Vioxx cover-up was quickly torn to shreads and within a few years the serious side-effects of using it were discovered and verified. Big Pharma actually has scientific proof standing against it. The MMR nonsense has never been replicated. After a comparable period of time, the anti-vaccers still have NOTHING backing their shit up.

As for the herbal home remedies vs drugs thing, the gleuten-free diet is actually very effective for autistic kids.

Peer reviewed source please?

They're dealing with some tough shit, and some of them have jumped on this misguided bandwagon.

See above. As parents, it is their responsibility to find this shit out. If they want to critisize how the science is done, they have to get educated about the science well enough to critizize it. Of course, when they do, they figure out that the anti-vaccers have NOTHING, and the vaccine "cover-up" looks nothing like the Vioxx cover-up.

[Darth Wong]

You're equating hysterical ignorance with malicious dismissal of facts and they're not the same.

And you're ignoring the concept of parental negligence, which is not the same as malice but which is nevertheless a form of unacceptable conduct.

It seems to me that you do not grasp the concept of parenthood being a responsibility at all. That's why you seem to think that if it's not malicious, then it's not bad. I'm going to guess at this point that you either have no kids or you're an absolutely horrible parent.

[Cairber]

ASULaoTzu:

There are plenty of examples of how, when vaccines have been found to cause health problems and more risk than initial trials demonstrated, they have been pulled from the market.

OPV/IPV: OPV can cause polio, but it is also the only version of the vaccine that can prevent transmission of polio; thus, in countries where polio is still present and a big issue, OPV is used. In countries were polio is no longer an issue, the switch is made over to IPV.

DPT: the DPT vaccine was replaced by the DTaP for children because the acellular version did not come with the side effects of the whole cell.

And the best example here would be the old Rotavirus vaccine, which was implicated in increased cases of intersucception. Once this happened, the vaccine was pulled from the market. Years later, we now have a new one that does not seem to cause the same issues.

I think all three of these examples show that the system works and that, if a vaccine is found to cause unnecessary risks (beyond localized reactions and the like), it is pulled from the market. The MMR has been looked at again and again, and it has been cleared again and again.

Of course, the conspiracy theorists simply use these examples to show that vaccines are horrible for us, yet they ignore that the very fact that these examples of the corrections made by the FDA exist seems to trample all over their argument.

[SirNitram]

If you want a comprehensive list of potential side effects, you could always check the Vaccine Court's compensation table, Link.

And it's not like this parade of retards doesn't know about the Vaccine Court. They all dropped their pants and masturbated in unison over a 2008 case which had a girl injected with the entire schedule in one sitting and developed symptoms called, quote, 'autistic like', unquote.

It's not like you can't afford to go. Loser pays rules are in effect there.