So I started reading Dune

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Adrian Laguna
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4736
Joined: 2005-05-18 01:31am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Adrian Laguna »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I love Dune. Yeah, everything said now is mostly accurate, but it's also important to remember Dune remains one of the most spectacular sci-fi conceptions even made. Everything has significance in that novel.
I wouldn't quite say everything. One of the things I liked about it is that several bits of foreshadowing actually lead nowhere. Like at one point the Baron sees his Piter de Vries kill a man, "So that’s how he kills by his own hand, the Baron thought. It’s well to know." That line hints at things to come, but it actually leads nowhere, being rendered irrelevant but four pages later. There is also a whole lot of build-up around Raban that is never resolved, he simply dies off-screen, which pisses Gurney off.

I felt these touches added a nice bit of realism to the story, because in real life not everything is important. Sometimes what one considers to be most relevant is of no real significance.

fgalkin wrote:No, the fact that it exists is not the problem, that's just magitech. The fact that you could get around the whole Tragic Betrayal! plot by simply sending out a guy with a raygun (by threatening to kill HIS family), or for the more human rights inclined lot, a timed device.
Herbert considered the ramifications of his technology to a greater extent than you give him credit for. The possibility of what you propose is discussed in the book:
Frank Herbert, [u]Dune[/u], Page 107 wrote:Jessica focused her mind on lasguns, wondering. The white-hot beams of disruptive light
could cut through any known substance, provided that substance was not shielded. The fact that
feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun and shield did not bother the Harkonnens.
Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than
atomics, could kill only the gunner and his shielded target.

...

He’s boasting, Jessica thought. He shouldn’t boast. No person who’ll be sleeping far below
ground level this night as a precaution against lasguns has the right to boast.
Frank Herbert, [u]Dune[/u], Page 112 wrote:"There is no traitor," she said. "The threat’s something else. Perhaps it has to do with the
lasguns. Perhaps they’ll risk secreting a few lasguns with timing mechanisms aimed at house
shields. Perhaps they’ll . . . "
"And who could tell after the blast if the explosion wasn’t atomic?" he asked. "No, my
Lady. They’ll not risk anything that illegal. Radiation lingers. The evidence is hard to erase.
No. They’ll observe most of the forms. It has to be a traitor."
If the Landsraad decides the Baron Harkonnen has been illegally using atomics, he, his family, and all of his possessions will be simply and utterly annihilated by combined nuclear bombardment of all the Houses, including the Imperial one. That is not the kind of threat one takes lightly. Hence the need for the traitor.


Regarding the Dune movie / mini-series, I only have one thing to say:

Image
User avatar
bobnik
Youngling
Posts: 96
Joined: 2009-02-02 04:04am
Location: Aboard the GSV Vertigo

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by bobnik »

I enjoyed Dune, and books 4-6 (God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune) in large part because they were so dense and complicated. Dune Messiah and Children of Dune I didn't like so much. And yeah, Brain's and KJA's work is not fun.

For more really strange shit from Frank Herbert, try Whipping Star and The Dosadi Experiment. Ideally you should read them in that order.
English is truly a Chaotic language; it will mutate at the drop of a hat, unmercifully rend words from other languages, spreads like the fabled plagues of old and has bastard children with any other dialect it can get its grubby little syntax on.
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Samuel »

bobnik wrote:I enjoyed Dune, and books 4-6 (God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune) in large part because they were so dense and complicated. Dune Messiah and Children of Dune I didn't like so much. And yeah, Brain's and KJA's work is not fun.

For more really strange shit from Frank Herbert, try Whipping Star and The Dosadi Experiment. Ideally you should read them in that order.
Dammit- I only got the second one- Whipping Star is the one where our hero falls for a Sun, right? I remember her teasing him in The Dosadi Experiment.
User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Nephtys »

Dune was alright. It was mostly interesting because it was so bizzare.

Everything after that was garbage.

Everything written by Brian Herbert and KJA is garbage. Although to be fair, the Butlerian Jihad's first book is alright if you pretend it's super generic brain-off whatever space thing and not Dune, and the 'House X' series was alright as a self-contained little set. Even if it has hideous, hideous flaws, stupid writing, and the 'Every planet is actually a single small city' mindset.
User avatar
Lord Relvenous
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2007-02-11 10:55pm
Location: Idaho

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Lord Relvenous »

bobnik wrote:I enjoyed Dune, and books 4-6 (God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune) in large part because they were so dense and complicated. Dune Messiah and Children of Dune I didn't like so much. And yeah, Brain's and KJA's work is not fun.
My only problem with God-Emperor of Dune was that almost every conversation with Leto seemed to be

Leto: *Esoteric rambling*
Other party: So you mean-
Leto: Exactly.

Many of the conversations with Leto just seemed to be pretentious bullshit. The overarching theme of the books I find interesting though. The control of the development of humanity and the usage of all kinds of power (religious, military, sexual, political, psychological) were interesting subjects.
Coyote: Warm it in the microwave first to avoid that 'necrophelia' effect.
User avatar
PainRack
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7583
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Location: Singapura

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by PainRack »

Lord Relvenous wrote: My only problem with God-Emperor of Dune was that almost every conversation with Leto seemed to be

Leto: *Esoteric rambling*
Other party: So you mean-
Leto: Exactly.

Many of the conversations with Leto just seemed to be pretentious bullshit. The overarching theme of the books I find interesting though. The control of the development of humanity and the usage of all kinds of power (religious, military, sexual, political, psychological) were interesting subjects.
Leto? Try the WHOLE duneuniverse by then.
Frankly, one of the reason why I sympathised so much with Duncan Idaho was that I was just as confused and frustrated at all the philosophy as he appeared to be.
How on earth did a discussion about homosexuality lead into morality, soldiers, teenage angst, human potential and of course, that Leto is a pervert and Duncan is hung up over a girl?


Still....... It WAS better than the Bene Gesserit novels. By then, the introduction of the Spoiler
jews
to the series had complicated matters so much that I just decided to focus on Miles Teg action.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Phantasee »

I need to stop hitting 'reveal' on every spoiler I see. Bad habit. :)

How do you pronounce Sayyadina and Sihaya? Spoiler
Sihaya is what Paul calls Chani, something like 'desert spring' (which doesn't sound nearly as romantic as I think it's supposed to; what the hell is a desert spring? Either more of the same or wet sand, I can't think of anything else).
EDIT: Spoiler
Ah, here's the definition in the back of the book:
SIHAYA: Fremen: the desert springtime with religious overtones implying the time of fruitfulness and "the paradise to come."
Should I just get the Encyclopedia? I understand it's got a pronounciation key for most of these words?
XXXI
User avatar
hongi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1952
Joined: 2006-10-15 02:14am
Location: Sydney

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by hongi »

kinnison wrote:Dune is a great story, but IMHO it has serious flaws; the main one being that an awful lot of the stuff about the Fremen refers to Arab culture - note Fedaykin (fedayeen) and Zensunni (obvious) along with the whole obsession with deserts and the "big-man" culture.

Personally, I think that Frank was glorifying, and expecting the rest of us to respect, the worst bunch of Dark Ages barbarians ever to inflict themselves on Earth. 1370 years and counting.
Aren't you the guy who got banned over at SB for being a xenophobic prick?

There's an interesting link here for the linguistic connections between Arabic and terms used in Dune.
User avatar
Big Orange
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7108
Joined: 2006-04-22 05:15pm
Location: Britain

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Big Orange »

There is a more logical reason why the technology is very uneven and stagnant in the Dune-verse than in the SW-verse: the humans are pathologically fearful of a technological singularity due to some unseen historical conflict or upheaval involving rogue AIs hence the dependency on mentats and the Bene Gesserit foundation to train humans into being as efficient as machines as possible.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
User avatar
PainRack
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7583
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Location: Singapura

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by PainRack »

Phantasee wrote:I need to stop hitting 'reveal' on every spoiler I see. Bad habit. :)

How do you pronounce Sayyadina and Sihaya?

Should I just get the Encyclopedia? I understand it's got a pronounciation key for most of these words?
You can always youtube it:D That or watch the Dune movies and miniseries.

Also, does anyone else feels that Brian and KJA essentially took Frank concepts about the future of Dune, and applies it to the past?
Spoiler
You know. The artificial spice from wombs(Chapterhouse Dune), God Emperor worms, aritificial robots seeking and destroying all humanity which appears to be a modified variant of Leto future vision, which the Golden Path averted in God Emperor of Dune
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
User avatar
Big Orange
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7108
Joined: 2006-04-22 05:15pm
Location: Britain

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Big Orange »

I don't understand why the Fremen are supposedly the outright villains, even if they're cut yer throat bandits steeped in superstition, when the decadently vulgar House Harkonnen are in general a more unpleasant bunch despite their immense wealth and sophistication.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
User avatar
Darth Hoth
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2319
Joined: 2008-02-15 09:36am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Darth Hoth »

Big Orange wrote:I don't understand why the Fremen are supposedly the outright villains, even if they're cut yer throat bandits steeped in superstition, when the decadently vulgar House Harkonnen are in general a more unpleasant bunch despite their immense wealth and sophistication.
So what part of "There are no good guys in the Duniverse, it is a disturbingly dystopic and backwards-reactionary place" did you miss? It is a nasty, crazy, anachronistic setting without plucky idealistic heroes toting civilised, 20th-century Western World values. The Fremen are not "the" villains; everyone there is a villain by our standards. Just because one tribes of barbarians are ignorant fanatics does not mean that another are not sadistic Caligulas.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas
User avatar
bobnik
Youngling
Posts: 96
Joined: 2009-02-02 04:04am
Location: Aboard the GSV Vertigo

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by bobnik »

Samuel wrote:Dammit- I only got the second one- Whipping Star is the one where our hero falls for a Sun, right? I remember her teasing him in The Dosadi Experiment.
That's right. Talk about a relationship with a hottie.

:arrow: I will now report to room 101 for breaches of the Pun act
English is truly a Chaotic language; it will mutate at the drop of a hat, unmercifully rend words from other languages, spreads like the fabled plagues of old and has bastard children with any other dialect it can get its grubby little syntax on.
User avatar
Jade Falcon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1705
Joined: 2004-07-27 06:22pm
Location: Jade Falcon HQ, Ayr, Scotland, UK
Contact:

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Jade Falcon »

Darth Hoth wrote:So what part of "There are no good guys in the Duniverse, it is a disturbingly dystopic and backwards-reactionary place" did you miss? It is a nasty, crazy, anachronistic setting without plucky idealistic heroes toting civilised, 20th-century Western World values. The Fremen are not "the" villains; everyone there is a villain by our standards. Just because one tribes of barbarians are ignorant fanatics does not mean that another are not sadistic Caligulas.
Just a question, how would you place the Atreides, at least House Atreides as it went to Arrakis with Duke Leto and Paul. I'm asking that because I've only read the first three books, and couldn't really get into God-Emperor. The Atreides seem to be classed as more principled and noble than many of the houses, which granted, isn't really saying a lot.
Don't Move you're surrounded by Armed Bastards - Gene Hunt's attempt at Diplomacy

I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6

The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Nephtys »

Jade Falcon wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:So what part of "There are no good guys in the Duniverse, it is a disturbingly dystopic and backwards-reactionary place" did you miss? It is a nasty, crazy, anachronistic setting without plucky idealistic heroes toting civilised, 20th-century Western World values. The Fremen are not "the" villains; everyone there is a villain by our standards. Just because one tribes of barbarians are ignorant fanatics does not mean that another are not sadistic Caligulas.
Just a question, how would you place the Atreides, at least House Atreides as it went to Arrakis with Duke Leto and Paul. I'm asking that because I've only read the first three books, and couldn't really get into God-Emperor. The Atreides seem to be classed as more principled and noble than many of the houses, which granted, isn't really saying a lot.
In the First Book, Leto is a pragmatist and house Atreides are realists, who happen to have a very good Propaganda Corps. Their planet is a pretty insignificant one by imperial standards, and they rule decently enough. They happen to have an unusually well trained and motivated military, due to the personal loyalty instilled in the populace through usual political imaging and whatnot. But that doesn't mean they're 'goody goody white knights'. Just that they're practical people, who'll still assassinate, sabotage and steal while presenting a good public image.

Afterwards, in the sequels and (especially) Prequels, the Atreides are just so overwhelmingly 'Lawful-Good' that it gets stupid.
User avatar
Setzer
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 3138
Joined: 2002-08-30 11:45am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Setzer »

Thanas wrote:
kinnison wrote:And, as I said in my first post, Herbert is depicting thinly disguised Arabs as heroes. Ugh. Unlike most of you I dare say, I have lived with Arabs; and at least the ones I met are filthy, smelly, vindictive, cruel and petty sons of bitches. And their Bronze Age attitudes are embedded in a religion that I am supposed to respect. NO!
Get lost. I know plenty of arabs myself, and none of them are like you describe. But hey, better to slander an entire ethnicity based on your worthless life experiences, right?
I once saw some guy urinate on the sidewalk because he didn't feel like walking across the street to a public bathroom. In the same town, there was plentiful crime and homelessness. Obviously this means that America is a filthy decrepit shithole populated exclusively by bums and thieves who think pissing in the street is preferably to figuring out how indoor plumbing works.

If this discussion continues, I think this sub-debate should be split off.

Anyhoo, back to the main topic. Yes, House Atreides had some fine ideals that it was not always possible to live up to. This didn't mean that Leto never tried to follow his ideals, or give up hope that he could make something better. This was reflected in his son Paul. Herbert even mentions this with a quote. "What is a son but a reflection of the father?" Paul knew he'd never avenge his father's death and destroy the Harkonnens without the Fremen. This meant he had to exploit the messiah mythos for his own ends, but he hoped he could forestall the Fremen jihad his prescience kept showing him. In the later books, I always saw Paul as bitter and despairing that he'd ended up as just another tyrant using religion to crush his enemies. In the end, he didn't have what it took to really make a significant difference, like Leto II.
The use of religion as a tool is an important theme in Dune, but what this tool is used for is also something worth considering.
Image
Andrew_Fireborn
Jedi Knight
Posts: 799
Joined: 2007-02-12 06:50am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Andrew_Fireborn »

Nephtys wrote:In the First Book, Leto is a pragmatist and house Atreides are realists, who happen to have a very good Propaganda Corps. Their planet is a pretty insignificant one by imperial standards, and they rule decently enough. They happen to have an unusually well trained and motivated military, due to the personal loyalty instilled in the populace through usual political imaging and whatnot. But that doesn't mean they're 'goody goody white knights'. Just that they're practical people, who'll still assassinate, sabotage and steal while presenting a good public image.

Afterwards, in the sequels and (especially) Prequels, the Atreides are just so overwhelmingly 'Lawful-Good' that it gets stupid.
Doubly so if you've played any of the Westwood Dune games. (Though, they also promoted House Ordos a fair bit, for whatever reason.)


For me, I read the first twice (boredom of the school age years... read the whole of LotR twice...) and the rest of the series once. I'd say the second book was my personal low point. Then again, what I remember of it, was mostly machination and house keeping... Though the major events of the book did have some real impact.




As for sandworms and water: Yeah, takes a fair amount comparative to their size... Spoiler
and a form spice is actually a by-product of this toxic reaction...
Rule one of Existance: Never, under any circumstances, underestimate stupidity. As it will still find ways to surprise you.
User avatar
PainRack
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7583
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Location: Singapura

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by PainRack »

kinnison wrote: Actually, I am not sure that you're right here at all. It is fairly obvious that the intent of the author is that the Bene Gesserit (although they have some rather nasty methods) are intent on the highest goal of all - that of racial survival. It is explicitly stated that the God-Emperor has the same goal. It appears that the Fremen are being used for a very simple purpose - that of shaking everything up.
No. The Bene Gesserit breeding plan was to create a human computer who had prescient powers.......... UNDER their control. As part of their political plans, they even made a compact with the Shaddam Emperor to place a BG on the throne of the dynasty, and refused him sons.

Chapterhouse Dune is NOT the original plans of the BG. The goals presented there were those that Leto II imprinted on the BG during his Golden Path as well as forced upon them during the war.

At best, the BG recognised that the human race had stagnated and needed shaking up, nevertheless, it was still another form of tyranny and indirect rule.
House Atreides are fairly clearly being portrayed as the inheritors of 20th century Western values - like fair play, valuing people above treasure, that sort of thing. It might appear that the real message of Dune is that such values are, in the long run, inconsistent with the survival of the human race and that tribalism and mysticism are preferable from that point of view. Atreides eventually has to "go with the flow" and resort to barbarism to win.
House Atreides had no qualms in assasinating and bribing their way to security on Arrakis, and as for this "eventually", that's balls.
She had used that same tone once with Leto, telling her lost Duke that he would accept a large sum offered for his support in a questionable venture- because money maintained power for the Atreides.
They had a high moral code, but they didn't had to descend to barbarism to win. Prior to Paul ascending the throne, the guerilla tactics involved were nothing new. Murder? Thufir Hawat presented herself to Jessica with blood soaked stains, and when Gurney arrived on Dune, the request was for him to split off 500 of his best men, for "knife" work. At best, they didn't resort to tearing the skin off Harkonen officers and making it into a drum.
And, as I said in my first post, Herbert is depicting thinly disguised Arabs as heroes. Ugh. Unlike most of you I dare say, I have lived with Arabs; and at least the ones I met are filthy, smelly, vindictive, cruel and petty sons of bitches. And their Bronze Age attitudes are embedded in a religion that I am supposed to respect. NO!
So....... what's wrong with the heroes of the story? Hell, what's wrong with Arabs?
Jessica wistfully noted that the villian Count Fenring did something Leto never had the guts to do-- to marry his lover.
That's not exactly............. valid. Count Fenring had no political barriers to prevent him from marrying his wife, and he was "sterile". Although it does show how successful the BG are at "persuasion"................ Look at how Fenring Spoiler
was continually cuckolded and willingly accepted the impregnation of his wife for BG breeding purposes
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by fgalkin »

Turd flushed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by mr friendly guy »

hongi wrote:Aren't you the guy who got banned over at SB for being a xenophobic prick?
People get banned at SB.com for being racists. :D Geez has hell frozen over or something.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
kinnison
Padawan Learner
Posts: 298
Joined: 2006-12-04 05:38am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by kinnison »

Strictly speaking, "xenophobia" is inaccurate. Last time I looked, Islam was not a race; it is certainly much less racially homogenous than Judaism. And the activities of its adherents don't seem to vary much with race either - the decapitating of schoolgirls is popular among Moslems in the Phillippines, inhabited by a completely different ethnic group than anywhere in the Middle East.

As far as I'm concerned they can do what they like to, with and among themselves; what I take issue with is that Westerners are expected to change our behaviour to suit them. All too often, we go along with that wish, at least in an official sense.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Thanas »

kinnison wrote:Strictly speaking, "xenophobia" is inaccurate. Last time I looked, Islam was not a race; it is certainly much less racially homogenous than Judaism. And the activities of its adherents don't seem to vary much with race either - the decapitating of schoolgirls is popular among Moslems in the Phillippines, inhabited by a completely different ethnic group than anywhere in the Middle East.

As far as I'm concerned they can do what they like to, with and among themselves; what I take issue with is that Westerners are expected to change our behaviour to suit them. All too often, we go along with that wish, at least in an official sense.
Good lord. You just can't stop yourself, can you?

And quit backpedaling - your first post certainly had everything to do with race, and you used Islam as an excuse to bash all arab history and culture. It is quite fascinating how you go from "worst barbarians ever" to "As far as I am concerned they can do what they like".

Did you even graduate High School with that kind of cognitive dissonance?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Mayabird
Storytime!
Posts: 5970
Joined: 2003-11-26 04:31pm
Location: IA > GA

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by Mayabird »

If he's American, it's really not that hard to graduate high school. You don't even need enough thought processes to have cognitive dissonance to get the magic piece of paper at the end.

Anyway, I don't see what this big fuss is about. It was the 1960s, the whole Arab world was still seem as exotic, and he knew stuff about it. Also this was partly a parable about oil and guess where the oil is.
DPDarkPrimus is my boyfriend!

SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
xerex
Jedi Knight
Posts: 849
Joined: 2005-06-17 08:02am

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by xerex »

PainRack wrote:
Jessica wistfully noted that the villian Count Fenring did something Leto never had the guts to do-- to marry his lover.
That's not exactly............. valid. Count Fenring had no political barriers to prevent him from marrying his wife, and he was "sterile".
what were the political barriers preventing leto from marrying jessica?-- the hope of a marriage alliance with someone else down the line.

so for Leto politics took precedence. and he knew this. I recall him being angst ridden about this

I agree that Fenring being sterile removed to need for him to marry into a great house. but how well known was this ? surely the Great Houses must have thought a marriage to the Emperors best freind and right hand man would have been favourable.

Nothing prevented him from going after a well connected heiress to a great house rather than marrying a BG.
Go back far enough and you'll end up blaming some germ for splitting in two - Col Tigh
User avatar
EarthScorpion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 209
Joined: 2008-09-25 02:54pm
Location: London

Re: So I started reading Dune

Post by EarthScorpion »

I remember him being known as a eunuch (technically not true) publicly, which meant that the other houses knew about it, and thus wouldn't want a daughter wasted on something which is only going to have short term benefits on allying the Houses without an heir.
Image
See the Anargo Sector Project, an entire fan-created sector for Warhammer 40k, designed as a setting for Role-Playing Games.

Author of Aeon Natum Engel, an Evangelion/Cthulhutech setting merger fan-fiction.
Post Reply