So I started reading Dune

[xerex]

Jessica wistfully noted that the villian Count Fenring did something Leto never had the guts to do-- to marry his lover.

That's not exactly............. valid. Count Fenring had no political barriers to prevent him from marrying his wife, and he was "sterile".

what were the political barriers preventing leto from marrying jessica?-- the hope of a marriage alliance with someone else down the line.

so for Leto politics took precedence. and he knew this. I recall him being angst ridden about this

I agree that Fenring being sterile removed to need for him to marry into a great house. but how well known was this ? surely the Great Houses must have thought a marriage to the Emperors best freind and right hand man would have been favourable.

Nothing prevented him from going after a well connected heiress to a great house rather than marrying a BG.

[EarthScorpion]

I remember him being known as a eunuch (technically not true) publicly, which meant that the other houses knew about it, and thus wouldn't want a daughter wasted on something which is only going to have short term benefits on allying the Houses without an heir.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There's actually little advantage to marrying to someone and not producing an heir. You want heirs to form the basis of a bond between two families. Otherwise, the gain is miserably short term, and Fenring could just ditch the wife on the whim.

[Aeolus]

That's one thing I hate about ebooks, it's hard to flip back and forth with them.

There's quite a bit of Arabic in this book, isn't there? Are the Fremen descendents of our Arabs? You'd think they'd do their best to avoid a desert planet, after generations living in Middle East.

The Empire is basically Persia. The Freeman are the bedouin. Paul is Mohammad. Basically it is the rise of Islam retold.

[Nephtys]

That's one thing I hate about ebooks, it's hard to flip back and forth with them.

There's quite a bit of Arabic in this book, isn't there? Are the Fremen descendents of our Arabs? You'd think they'd do their best to avoid a desert planet, after generations living in Middle East.

The Empire is basically Persia. The Freeman are the bedouin. Paul is Mohammad. Basically it is the rise of Islam retold.

Uh. Would you have any specifics besides 'Guy leads some desert people over an empire?'

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Uh. Would you have any specifics besides 'Guy leads some desert people over an empire?'

I would point out that historically, it was a "bunch of bedouin" that emerged victorious over the Sassanid Empire.

[Samuel]

Uh. Would you have any specifics besides 'Guy leads some desert people over an empire?'

I would point out that historically, it was a "bunch of bedouin" that emerged victorious over the Sassanid Empire.

The same could probably be said of the Parthians over the Selucidians. Or the Mongols over everyone else on the planet.

Notably, unlike Muhammed, he isn't one of them, he doesn't start at the bottom, he isn't a trader, he doesn't die before they start, he doesn't marry in, etc. The metaphor is about as good as Palpatine=Hitler.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The same could probably be said of the Parthians over the Selucidians. Or the Mongols over everyone else on the planet.

Notably, unlike Muhammed, he isn't one of them, he doesn't start at the bottom, he isn't a trader, he doesn't die before they start, he doesn't marry in, etc. The metaphor is about as good as Palpatine=Hitler.

Well, the two examples didn't have religious motivations, especially considering the "Crusade" that happened after Shaddam IV was removed.

[Aeolus]

I am not saying that the match is 100% Paul being an outsider is a major divergence. however it is clearly inspired by the fall of Persia to Islam and the resulting explosion of Islam across the old world. The spice of course is comentary on the 20th century's dependence of mid east oil.

[Samuel]

The same could probably be said of the Parthians over the Selucidians. Or the Mongols over everyone else on the planet.

Notably, unlike Muhammed, he isn't one of them, he doesn't start at the bottom, he isn't a trader, he doesn't die before they start, he doesn't marry in, etc. The metaphor is about as good as Palpatine=Hitler.

Well, the two examples didn't have religious motivations, especially considering the "Crusade" that happened after Shaddam IV was removed.

Isn't the religious crusade after Paul? I only read the first book and their motivation was pretty secular, even if they did view Paul as essentially the messiah.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Isn't the religious crusade after Paul? I only read the first book and their motivation was pretty secular, even if they did view Paul as essentially the messiah.

No. In the time between Dune and Dune Messiah, the Fremen went on a Crusade of sorts, which led to countless worlds burned with stone burners all in Paul's name. If I recall correctly, Paul's Empire didn't include all the of the imperium.

There was another "crusade" to reunify the Empire under Leto II, and this time it was with Imperial Sarduakar and Imperial Fremen.

[Duckie]

Another parallel- Muhammad was terrified of being a prophet originally, before he was convinced by his wife to have courage. Muad'dib was terrified of the future he could see before him.

I think the point is that while it may not be an exact telling of the story of the Prophet, it's quite clearly influenced by it (although with modern concepts of the Ottoman conquest/modern jihad and oil dependency thrown in ahistorically) due to Hebert's love of the Orient.

It's thematic, not exact: if it was just a 1-to-1 retelling of the story instead of merely appropriating elements and symbolism it wouldn't be nearly as good.

[joyceman]

It's thematic, not exact: if it was just a 1-to-1 retelling of the story instead of merely appropriating elements and symbolism it wouldn't be nearly as good.

Just ask Harry Turtledove.

[PainRack]

I agree that Fenring being sterile removed to need for him to marry into a great house. but how well known was this ? surely the Great Houses must have thought a marriage to the Emperors best freind and right hand man would have been favourable.

Nothing prevented him from going after a well connected heiress to a great house rather than marrying a BG.

The Baron knew. Also, in this case, Count Fenrig had no need to ally himself with a greater power, he was already at the centre of power insofar as it is.

[Big Orange]

So what part of "There are no good guys in the Duniverse, it is a disturbingly dystopic and backwards-reactionary place" did you miss? It is a nasty, crazy, anachronistic setting without plucky idealistic heroes toting civilised, 20th-century Western World values. The Fremen are not "the" villains; everyone there is a villain by our standards. Just because one tribes of barbarians are ignorant fanatics does not mean that another are not sadistic Caligulas.

In other words the Harkonnens have less pretentions with their sleazyness, with House Atreides giving off the impression of being Prussian nobility (both in the Lynch film and novel) proud, stern, and highly militant. Leto Atreides was still an absolute dictator who used force of arms to carry out his aims, with his troops being no different to the Sardaukar in terms of fanatical training and methods (which was why the Emperor feared Leto as a rival). The Sardaukar themselves seem to be based on Ottoman Janissaries and Roman Praetorians.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

How would Leto II factor (if at all) into the Islam metaphor idea?

Or do the Dune sequels really fit into the analogy?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In other words the Harkonnens have less pretentions with their sleazyness, with House Atreides giving off the impression of being Prussian nobility (both in the Lynch film and novel) proud, stern, and highly militant. Leto Atreides was still an absolute dictator who used force of arms to carry out his aims, with his troops being no different to the Sardaukar in terms of fanatical training and methods (which was why the Emperor feared Leto as a rival). The Sardaukar themselves seem to be based on Ottoman Janissaries and Roman Praetorians.

Actually, whether Atreidi forces were comparable to the Sardaukar is questionable. I remember a quote where Thufir said that the Duke was close to raising an army comparable to the Sardaukar thanks to Gurney Hallack and Duncan Idaho, but he wasn't there yet. The moving of House Atreides to Arrakis was part of a preemptive move to destroy the Atreides before they got there.

[Ghost Rider]

In other words the Harkonnens have less pretentions with their sleazyness, with House Atreides giving off the impression of being Prussian nobility (both in the Lynch film and novel) proud, stern, and highly militant. Leto Atreides was still an absolute dictator who used force of arms to carry out his aims, with his troops being no different to the Sardaukar in terms of fanatical training and methods (which was why the Emperor feared Leto as a rival). The Sardaukar themselves seem to be based on Ottoman Janissaries and Roman Praetorians.

Actually, whether Atreidi forces were comparable to the Sardaukar is questionable. I remember a quote where Thufir said that the Duke was close to raising an army comparable to the Sardaukar thanks to Gurney Hallack and Duncan Idaho, but he wasn't there yet. The moving of House Atreides to Arrakis was part of a preemptive move to destroy the Atreides before they got there.

Actually Thufir does state that the Atredies were within a hair as good, with some better the the Sardukar. Arrakis was to supply them with a force just as large and as skilled as the Sardukar. The only problem was supplying and outfitting them.

The Emperor likely saw this and is why he used the Baron as such. The way they both expouse of how much money was needed in that particular venture makes it rather unique for house warfare.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually Thufir does state that the Atredies were within a hair as good, with some better the the Sardukar. Arrakis was to supply them with a force just as large and as skilled as the Sardukar. The only problem was supplying and outfitting them.

The Emperor likely saw this and is why he used the Baron as such. The way they both expouse of how much money was needed in that particular venture makes it rather unique for house warfare.

Must be a long time since I read the book. Does Thufir also mention something about the Fremen allying with the Atreides? I remember vaguely that Thufir said something to that effect. Or were you referring to that?

[Setzer]

Yes, Thufir and Leto had every intention of allying with the Fremen, and providing them with training and equipment. After the Harkonnen attack, Thufir laments the lack of time, musing on what powerful allies the Fremen would have made. And Paul showed full well what they were capable of.

[Mayabird]

It's thematic, not exact: if it was just a 1-to-1 retelling of the story instead of merely appropriating elements and symbolism it wouldn't be nearly as good.

Just ask Harry Turtledove.

Even worse, Orson Scott Card. Yes, Mr. Card, some of us non-Mormons have read your religion's shitty Bible fanfic and we know when you're just ripping it off.


Anyway, back to Dune. While it wasn't explicitly mentioned, the Padishah Emperor was probably also worried about the rising power of the Atredies because the Sardaukar were in a sort of decline at that point. IIRC Shaddam IV had doubled the number of generals and they were becoming overconfident and cynical, while the Atredies troops were improving (and as previously mentioned, had some that were the equal or a hair better than the Sardaukar already).

[Thanas]

Also, didn't he neglect the training of the Sardaukar somewhat? If I read Children of Dune right, the Sardaukar were being retrained at that time.

[Setzer]

Yeah, the Sardaukar were getting too political. I believe they mentioned the officer's numbers were increasing beyond what was needed, and that overall recruitment had shrunk.

[Chris OFarrell]

The reasons the Emperor moved against the Duke were really two fold;

1. Political power, the Duke was very popular in the Landsraad and there was actually a threat of him swinging them behind him against the Emperor.

2. Training. The Duke had trained a small army to be as good as the Sardaukar -at least as good as the Sardaukar were reputed to be, they might have actually been better on the whole- and the Sardaukar had always strategically been the thing that kept the Emperor and his house on the throne.

So the idea was to strand the Atredies on Dune and let the Harkonnens deal with them, beefing up their force with Sardaukar to make sure the first blow was the only blow. Of course, the Duke and Thufir were fully aware of this maneuvering and laid their own plans, guessing -correctly- that the Freemen could be swayed to the side of the Atredies, and also -correctly- guessing that there was a gigantic Freeman culture that neither the Imperials nor Harkonnens ever guessed at, that could be equipped and trained.

The plan would have worked well too...if not for the Harkonnens dropping 10 legions of troops in on their heads early on, something that no-one saw coming.

Of course, then Paul got lose, carried on the plan of training and equipping them, and the rest was history.

[PainRack]

Yes, Thufir and Leto had every intention of allying with the Fremen, and providing them with training and equipment. After the Harkonnen attack, Thufir laments the lack of time, musing on what powerful allies the Fremen would have made. And Paul showed full well what they were capable of.

To be fair, Thufir musing on the power of their allies occured after he saw them defeat the Saudukar.

Even worse, Orson Scott Card. Yes, Mr. Card, some of us non-Mormons have read your religion's shitty Bible fanfic and we know when you're just ripping it off.

Hmmm............ You're referring to Speaker of the Dead?

Anyway, back to Dune. While it wasn't explicitly mentioned, the Padishah Emperor was probably also worried about the rising power of the Atredies because the Sardaukar were in a sort of decline at that point. IIRC Shaddam IV had doubled the number of generals and they were becoming overconfident and cynical, while the Atredies troops were improving (and as previously mentioned, had some that were the equal or a hair better than the Sardaukar already).

To quote

His reign is noted chiefly for the Arrakis Revolt, blamed by many historians on Shaddam IV's dalliance with Court functions and the pomp ofoffice. The ranks of Bursegs were doubled in the first sixteen years of his reign.Appropriations for Sardaukar training went down steadily in the final thirty years before the Arrakis Revolt.

So even if we ignore the Bene Gesserit Compact to place their own on the throne, and Irulan observations that Shaddam felt like he was a man trapped behind a cage(referring to his loss of political freedom? Inability to reverse the Corrino fortunes? Trapped by political protoccol?), the Sardaukar was already weaker than normal, especially if the Bursegs doubling= double the normal Sardaukar forces with lesser training.

In the sequels, its noted that the one remainding legion had been trained back to a pre-Arakeen edge.

The Emperor likely saw this and is why he used the Baron as such. The way they both expouse of how much money was needed in that particular venture makes it rather unique for house warfare.

Wasn't the cost due mostly to Guild transport?