China-Where did the name come from anyway?

[ray245]

There also was direct diplomatic contact between the Romans and the Chinese around 170 AD. I am unaware at the moment what the Byzantines or Romans called China, but if I have time, I'll try and dig something up.

Didn't they call the Chinese Seres or Sinca?

And if I recall correctly, there was a diplomatic envoy sent by Antonius.

[ray245]

I have been digging up some books written by scholars when contact between both worlds began to grow. From what I can gather, it seems that a number of people fail to connect the fact that Cathay and China is really the same place unit the Jeusits came along.

Here are some names that Europeans used to refer to China.

Ptolemy called it Serica and Sinae, meaning the northern and southern part of the same China respectively.

Then there is one topograph(can't remember which) which mention the name Zinza. It dates from the Renaissance age.

There is also the 1665 Novus Atlas Sinensis, as well as a 1658 book about China, named sinicere historiae decus prima ( may have a few spelling mistakes).

The earliest offical mention of the name China I can find is Daniele Bartoli 1663 book, China Illustrata.

[Thanas]

What are your sources?

[ray245]

Will post is ASAP, I have tons of project to finish by the next week.

[Skgoa]

I feel I should note that "Deutschland" does note originate from the teutons, who are really only "famous" for their tribe's name being so similar. but since even most germans don't know what the adjective "deutsch" actually means...*sigh*

and while I'm at it: who came up with "teutonic knights"?


edit: also, China is pronounced "sheena" by germans, "kheena" is for bavarians and austrians!

[Thanas]

I feel I should note that "Deutschland" does note originate from the teutons, who are really only "famous" for their tribe's name being so similar. but since even most germans don't know what the adjective "deutsch" actually means...*sigh*

Eh, you're right. Actually a frankish name for "people".

[Marcus Aurelius]

I feel I should note that "Deutschland" does note originate from the teutons, who are really only "famous" for their tribe's name being so similar. but since even most germans don't know what the adjective "deutsch" actually means...*sigh*

Eh, you're right. Actually a frankish name for "people".

As a side note I'd like to add that Germany is called "Saksa" in Finnish. Apparently this originates from the medieval Duchy of Saxony, which covered such a large part of Northern Germany that Finnish people started to call all Germans "Saxons". Even today Finnish "Saksa" and German "Sachsen" are phonetically fairly close. This is somewhat strange since most German merchants actually came to Finland from the Free Cities of the Hanseatic League, such as Lübeck, which were not part of the Duchy.

[Thanas]

I feel I should note that "Deutschland" does note originate from the teutons, who are really only "famous" for their tribe's name being so similar. but since even most germans don't know what the adjective "deutsch" actually means...*sigh*

Eh, you're right. Actually a frankish name for "people".

As a side note I'd like to add that Germany is called "Saksa" in Finnish. Apparently this originates from the medieval Duchy of Saxony, which covered such a large part of Northern Germany that Finnish people started to call all Germans "Saxons". Even today Finnish "Saksa" and German "Sachsen" are phonetically fairly close. This is somewhat strange since most German merchants actually came to Finland from the Free Cities of the Hanseatic League, such as Lübeck, which were not part of the Duchy.

Are you sure that it did not originate from the Saxons themselves?

[Duckie]

I feel I should note that "Deutschland" does note originate from the teutons, who are really only "famous" for their tribe's name being so similar. but since even most germans don't know what the adjective "deutsch" actually means...*sigh*

Eh, you're right. Actually a frankish name for "people".

Actually, both of you are wrong and right at the same time. The only unsure part about this is that there needs to be a single vowel shift in a specific situation to accompany it. And if þiuda in one tribe doesn't mean the same as þeuda in another, it'd be surprising to me given how many ethnicities name themselves "The People" in one way or another.

Also notice that Old High German and Modern Hochdeutsch have the very same iu->eu shift, albeit German then changes the sound of eu in a later one to be 'oy'.

teuta (tribe, PIE) > Þiuda (people, noun stem, ProtoGer) -> Þiudisk (people, adj, ProtoGer) > Diutisc (OHG) > Deutsch (Ger)
teuta (tribe, PIE) > Þiuda (people, noun stem, ProtoGer dialect) -> Þeudanōz (people, plural noun, ProtoGer dialect) > Teuton (Latinisation of Þeudanōz)

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

[ray245]

What are your sources?

Here:

China revealed : The west encounters the celestial empire
by Gianni Guadalupi

[ray245]

Just a corrected error for one book: Sinicae Historiae Decas Prima.

It seems that the name China fell into popular usage from the 17th century onwards. I have yet to find any European source before this period describing China as China.

However, I could not understand why there is no mention of the Qing Dynasty. The commoners usually refer to China by the dynasty name, and not Zhong Quo.

For example, China during the Ming dynasty is called Da Ming Guo, or in some cases, Da Ming ( Meaning Big Ming)

It might be possible that Qing was written by Europeans as Ching, but that is just an assumption.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Are you sure that it did not originate from the Saxons themselves?

When it comes to etymology, it is hard to be really sure of anything, but I doubt it could come from the Saxons. There were no major Saxon migrations in the Northern Baltic Sea (and Finns would have been unaware of any Southern ones or the Saxon invasion of England). Furthermore, the Hanseatic merchants were not Saxons and for all we know did not call themselves that.

In Estonian Germany is "Saksamaa", which is a compound noun from "Saksa" and "maa" (translation: land), similar to "England" (or "Angleterre"). In Finnish an archaic form of "Saksanmaa" (the "n" in the middle is genitive suffix) also exists. However, in Finnish and Estonian the meaning of such compound noun is not really "Land of the Saxons" rather than "Land called Saksa". Estonian has preserved more of those compound nouns ending in "maa", for example France is "Prantsusmaa" in Estonian but "Ranska" in Finnish (archaic "Ranskanmaa" exists, however).

[Thanas]

Are you sure that it did not originate from the Saxons themselves?

When it comes to etymology, it is hard to be really sure of anything, but I doubt it could come from the Saxons. There were no major Saxon migrations in the Northern Baltic Sea

Considering that they lived in modern-day Holstein, I think the territory is close enough. BTW, the saxons did not all leave for England - a huge part stayed behind. The duchy of Saxony existed in the middle ages (up to 1918 in some form) and the Saxons were still know as people until the renaissance.

(and Finns would have been unaware of any Southern ones or the Saxon invasion of England). Furthermore, the Hanseatic merchants were not Saxons and for all we know did not call themselves that.

They were Saxons, at least ethnically.

In Estonian Germany is "Saksamaa", which is a compound noun from "Saksa" and "maa" (translation: land), similar to "England" (or "Angleterre"). In Finnish an archaic form of "Saksanmaa" (the "n" in the middle is genitive suffix) also exists. However, in Finnish and Estonian the meaning of such compound noun is not really "Land of the Saxons" rather than "Land called Saksa". Estonian has preserved more of those compound nouns ending in "maa", for example France is "Prantsusmaa" in Estonian but "Ranska" in Finnish (archaic "Ranskanmaa" exists, however).

That is interesting.