Just read WWZ

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Pulp Hero
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Just read WWZ

Post by Pulp Hero »

I just finished reading World War Z. Probably the best zombie-centric book I've read, and it definitely kept me enthralled.

Now, I am a long time zombie fan (before they started getting super popular a few years ago with the 28DL and DOTD movies) and as such I do have a few issues with the book.


First I like that WWZ stuck with classic Romero style shufflers, because it has much better imagery intimidation/fear factor when presented correctly. The thing about zombies though, is that they are a metaphor for other things, and I always believed that shuffler zombie stories should highlight the stupidity of herd mentality and irrational fear.

For example, zombies on their own should not be a threat to a military, any military. The Battle of Yonkers in the book was actually the turning point where the WWZ story starting going downhill. Before that point, the zombies had been relatively harmless themselves, but had caused destructive panic and rioting. But with yonkers, it lost that mood and became a standard "Oh no, there are too many zombies!" story where the shufflers had somehow become a legitimate threat.

In a bit of Monday morning Authoring, the way I would have laid down the Battle of Yonkers is as such: Millions of New Yorkers fleeing from maybe a thousand or so zombies. At Yonkers is a correctly laid anti-zombie checkpo9int. The civilians rush right into the military checkpoint and their cars ruin the carefully laid barbwire lines, they start clamoring all over tanks and AFVs and bothering soldiers to protect them, they set up camp near the military and refuse to leave even though they are blocking the killzone. By the time the zombies show up, the military can't react because of civilians everywhere. The MLRS systems can't fire because of civilians everywhere, the snipers can't get clear shots, etc. Irrational fear of something containable turned the predictions of doom into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Things that were touched on in the book: People up and moving without appropriate supplies. That was spot on. Actually having the zombies show up in the snow. That was dumb. Its better, storywise if people are driven to kill themselves in the snow rather that face the scary, but harmless, zombies.

EDIT: Also. America is pushed back to the west coast and its industry is basically shattered. How in the holy hell did it manage to start producing a completely new rifle type and a new size of ammunition in the needed numbers? Especially considering the in-story praise that .22 rounds get against zombies, the current 5.56mm used in M-16 rifles on single shot with optics should be the perfect weapon. And the new, all Kevlar padded uniform was dumb for a few reasons. One- this was for an army hiking across the country entirely on foot with rucksacks. Now every armchair zombie fighter splooges himself about "People in zombie stories are so dumb, they should always wear arm and heavy leather", and this Kevlar uniform reads like something out of a fanfic. Try hiking across the damn country with a hot, non-breathing, non wicking, full body uniform, and a rucksack and kit, and tell me if that is practical. The Kevlar thing should have been left as a special uniform used for zombie MOUT or the fact that a shit ton of people would have passed out while hiking with it should have been mentioned.

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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Traveller »

Im not really sure why you have a problem with the battle of Yonkers. Its clearly stated one of the principle reasons it turned into such a cluster-fuck was the military was trained and equiped to fight a completely different enemy than the one they faced. The military wasnt prepared physically or mentally for 'Zack'. The author details hows the army's combined-arms tactics and equipment, intended to fight convential warfare in places like Europe, the Middle East etc, were virtually useless against an enemy like Zack that did not get tired, become demoralized, need rest, anything. I mean did you actually read that chapter? Todd says they had allready evacuated the refugees, in fact, he notes its one of the few things they did right....

The whole point was, eventually, both tactics and equipment were radically adapted to counter 'Zacks' unique nature. Tactics that proved ultimately sucessful. As for the showing up in the snow, how was that dumb? Where there were people, you were bound to invariably come across zombies no matter where you were. At least low temperatures disabled Z, well temporarily anyhow. And why would it be better storywise if people are driven to kill themselves in the snow? Thats more or less what happens anyhow, due to lack of supplies, exposure, poor planning etc. That kills far more people that flee to the North than Z does. I read the entire book, I dont remeber Zack being presented anywhere as 'Scary but harmless'. Harmless as in, over 1/2 the human race dies during WWZ?, entire countries and regions depopulated along with severe enviromental damage in many areas? Sounds harmless to me..

Really, Max Brooks is a good author, and there is nothing wrong with the way he presents his story. (guess thats why it was a best-seller?)
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Stark »

Yeah, everything that's a 'best seller' (ps meaningless term) is a quality book. :D Pulp Hero's point may be that regardless of writer's fiat, the decisions made at the author level may be stupid or wrong (like his opinion of the 'straight from internet forum' features).

I'll leave it to other HABites to laugh at the idea that the battles are anything but thinly veiled political commentary.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Pulp Hero »

My problem with Yonkers is that it was a straight up military vs. zombie fight, and the military lost. Shufflers should never, ever be able to overwhelm a military force. And the MLRS and other artillery systems were very much under rated. You know they have a nick name, "Grid Square Eliminators", the zombies would have been toasted.

And the military command and set up was written from a very anti-military, "make those warmongers look stupid" standpoint. The military might want to put up a good show, but killing the enemy comes first, protecting the soldiers comes second. Every good NCO knows that. No way in hell would the order for MOPP gear be given or followed.

The thing with civilians is conceivably how the military could have "accurately" lost to zombies- stupid people getting in the way of effective weapons.

Also, "Best Seller"- Ann Coulter has a few of those too. Plus, I did mostly enjoy the book, which filling the zombie shaped hole in my heart. It just had some issues.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Vendetta »

Traveller wrote:Im not really sure why you have a problem with the battle of Yonkers. Its clearly stated one of the principle reasons it turned into such a cluster-fuck was the military was trained and equiped to fight a completely different enemy than the one they faced. The military wasnt prepared physically or mentally for 'Zack'. The author details hows the army's combined-arms tactics and equipment, intended to fight convential warfare in places like Europe, the Middle East etc, were virtually useless against an enemy like Zack that did not get tired, become demoralized, need rest, anything. I mean did you actually read that chapter? Todd says they had allready evacuated the refugees, in fact, he notes its one of the few things they did right....
The biggest problem from my understanding is underestimating the ability of modern military hardware to chew up unarmoured targets and spit them out.

A clumped mass of zombies is going to be kibble after you turn a .50 cal on it for a short period, let alone anything bigger. In fact the cheap mobile light ACVs like Stryker that seem to be in vogue in the military would be perfect for fighting a protracted urban campaign against an enemy with zero fightback capability.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by DrMckay »

Looks like the Brooks writing talent has bred true. :wink:

Max is Mel's son.

For those who enjoyed this, I'd recommend picking up a copy of Studs Terkel's "The Good War," The book and format WWZ was based on. It's one hell of a read.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Commander 598 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya_BX4ABqhA&NR=1

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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Deathstalker »

I read the Yonkers battle and had the same response. Mention is made of Generals wanting to fight the Fulda Gap, and this is after mentioning brushfire wars. There should have been another reason for the military failure. Between massed arty fires, and an AC 130 circling over head, zombies are going to get chewed into hamburger.

As for the new weapons, nobody has more guns than the US, there should have been no need to waste resources on new guns. The uniforms may not have been so bad if the Kevlar was just heavy padding to protect from bites, rather than heavier stuff needed to stop bullets.

It will be interesting to see how things are portrayed in the movie.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by SylasGaunt »

I don't recall any mention of an AC130, but the arty WAS chewing the zombies up. The problem is that someone let fucking Gorman plan their operation so there wasn't enough ammo supplied for the arty.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by B5B7 »

The book was an enjoyable read, but I didn't find it credible that the zombies became such a big threat. Isolation of any outbreak zone and elimination of zombies should work. The zombies have no intelligence - if someone turns into a zombie while in their car, they can't undo their seatbelt or open the car door. The zombies can not open doors, not any door anywhere.
Also, the author failed to mention much in the way of research being done into the cause of the zombieism and a counter-agent.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Vendetta wrote:
Traveller wrote:Im not really sure why you have a problem with the battle of Yonkers. Its clearly stated one of the principle reasons it turned into such a cluster-fuck was the military was trained and equiped to fight a completely different enemy than the one they faced. The military wasnt prepared physically or mentally for 'Zack'. The author details hows the army's combined-arms tactics and equipment, intended to fight convential warfare in places like Europe, the Middle East etc, were virtually useless against an enemy like Zack that did not get tired, become demoralized, need rest, anything. I mean did you actually read that chapter? Todd says they had allready evacuated the refugees, in fact, he notes its one of the few things they did right....
The biggest problem from my understanding is underestimating the ability of modern military hardware to chew up unarmoured targets and spit them out.

A clumped mass of zombies is going to be kibble after you turn a .50 cal on it for a short period, let alone anything bigger. In fact the cheap mobile light ACVs like Stryker that seem to be in vogue in the military would be perfect for fighting a protracted urban campaign against an enemy with zero fightback capability.
Let alone the (previously mentioned) MLRS - it's just taking an area the size of a football field and giving it a new layer of topsoil. :D.

I really need to read the books sometime. Right?
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by K. A. Pital »

Dunno. If you like the zombie genre, perhaps. I personally wasn't impressed. But then, I think that zombies are just dumb as a plot device, so perhaps I'm being biased. The facts are that a modern military would not be defeated by zombies unless the numerical superiority is excessive (think thousands to one) and ammunition is extremely limited with no logistical backup. Also, if zombies survive after damage that is physically destroying their bodies, and especially sensory centers, that's unrealistic and sucktastic. Zombies might be more resilient, but in the end they are just meatbags, not molecular re-assembling machines of doom.

And yeah, people totally don't understand just what the hell modern heavy weapons are. To be more precise: a hit by a KPV shot (14,5 mm machinegun) will not just "hit" the target - hitting any part of the target body is deadly, because the limb is immediately severed in an extremely violent fashion. If hits are several which is most likely versus a target lacking intelligence to use cover and such, the body is going to be ripped to shreds and explode in a bloody mess.

The problem is zombies just don't last versus anything serious.

Oh, and their inability to use vehicles for transportation and any long-range weaponry, means that even a retreating military unit will never suffer any serious casualties from the zombies. So that's pathetic.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by weemadando »

DEATH wrote: Let alone the (previously mentioned) MLRS - it's just taking an area the size of a football field and giving it a new layer of topsoil. :D.
Just one? I think you're underestimating a bit. Unless you want some REALLY well ploughed topsoil.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Stas Bush wrote:The problem is zombies just don't last versus anything serious.
Actually I don't think discussion of small arms is really an important issue here. Military engineering would probably be the most important factor. You funnel zombies into concentrated killzones where they can be dispatched most efficiently, like flying columns who dig trenches with earth-movers and lay fences in the path of the zombies. Since they have no intelligence and no objective beyond finding stuff to devour, they're going to pursue the path of least resistance. Using quick-and-easy stuff like this, you can push the zombies into open areas where your artillery is pre-sighted or you've laid high-explosive mines. Then you knock them around until nothing is moving anymore, and finish up with zombie-elimination vehicles--take a tank chassis, mount a huge rotary tiller on the front, and it grinds the zombies into paste and turns the soil over on them.

This stuff is not hard to think of and is easily done by any modern military, which is why I never bothered with WWZ. It's a towering, monumental "idiot plot."
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by K. A. Pital »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:This stuff is not hard to think of and is easily done by any modern military, which is why I never bothered with WWZ. It's a towering, monumental "idiot plot."
Exactly. Apart from idiotic political rants on the ineffectiveness of government response (yeah right, after seeing millions of zombies crammed in one place, the government wouln't use a nuke, sending a bunch of soldiers instead :lol: and the PLAN is like the worst army on Earth because ChiComs are so dumb), the plot is idiotic. It's dissappointing really, the potential was there. Guess when you know crap about the military, that's what happens.

The zombie shit works better with a pandemia scenario, and that's why I Am Legend is like the only thing which isn't totally retarded in the zombie "genre".
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Raxmei »

The army is really good at winning the Battle of Yonkers. The problem more sensibly should have been that things like Yonkers don't happen. The zombies are everywhere. Where did all those evacuated civilians evacuate to? No matter where you put them there are going to be zombies. The whole zombie population of New York isn't going to line up to get shot either. You have to walk into the city and check all the little nooks and crannies. Urban combat's rough enough that the zombies might even get some kills in. Then after securing an area you have to guard it or else it'll stop being secure. The army doesn't have the manpower to do Hands Across America until pretty late in the war, so they're stuck either wearing themselves out clearing city after city again and again or leaving large parts of the country to the zombies. That's what the South African strategy was: concentrate everything on an area you can adequately secure, then build from that to retake all the bits you had to abandon earlier. The earlier military disaster would then be the army running itself ragged trying to be everywhere at once, managing to take casualties by throwing exhausted troops into endless urban combats with no coherent objective.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by K. A. Pital »

The problem is yes. Some sort of army-vs-zombie clash is ridiculous. If it's a pandemia, it will just spread around leading to loss of security almost everywhere. If it can be contained - and in fact it can, as soon as travel restrictions are in place - then it's back to square one, killing zombies is something that modern weapons do easily.

Urban combat, right - but in Yonkers the zombies did exactly "line up to get shot" and the army couldn't do that. That's bullshit. And what, the army is some sort of "army of one"? It's a gigantic network of armed men stretching back and forth for thousands of kilometers. There's always where to fall back. There's always supplies and munitions. And there's no way zombies are "overwhelming half the army" because that means you don't fucking understand what an Army is.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Uraniun235 »

I still stand by my contention that most of the zombie "genre" is basically just kiddy-grade survivalist shit for nerds. There's usually a lot of big talk in the movies/books about how zombies are soooo dangerous and infectious and what-not but that's crap, it's basically just an easy guns-'n-badasses fantasy for people to put themselves into without having to contend with the terrifying thought of someone shooting back at them.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Akkleptos »

Stas Bush wrote:The zombie shit works better with a pandemia scenario, and that's why I Am Legend is like the only thing which isn't totally retarded in the zombie "genre".
Raxmei wrote:The problem more sensibly should have been that things like Yonkers don't happen. The zombies are everywhere. Where did all those evacuated civilians evacuate to? No matter where you put them there are going to be zombies. The whole zombie population of New York isn't going to line up to get shot either. You have to walk into the city and check all the little nooks and crannies. Urban combat's rough enough that the zombies might even get some kills in. Then after securing an area you have to guard it or else it'll stop being secure. The army doesn't have the manpower to do Hands Across America until pretty late in the war, so they're stuck either wearing themselves out clearing city after city again and again or leaving large parts of the country to the zombies.
Precisely. It's when it's all zombies out and about when it becomes dangerous. Besides, most zombie movies, novels and fanfics I've seen rely on the human factor: "What the fuck do you mean shot her in the head!? That's my mom you're talking about!!!", or the military variant: "Go help the Lieutenant! -But, sir...! -That's an order! We leave no man behind!" or the short version: "Nah, I'm fine. The fucker just bit me."

Of course, the dreaded runners (best observed by 0:55) would probably help in a pandemia scenario. Music: Disturbed - Down with the sickness=bonus! :D

Add little to no-incubation time after death and you've got a real problem.

Then the world would rapidly spiral into... Johnny Cash!

Of course, the idea of the walking dead is absurd by itself. That's what makes the zombie genre so scary. It's like "Man! That can't be! That guy... that guy is getting up... but it's fucking bowels are hanging from his belly!"
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Stark »

The zombie 'genre' isn't scary and never has been. Effective 'zombie' stories are generally distinguished by NOT zombies, like 28DL or I Am Legend. Like U235 says zombie shit is just nerd-chic.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Akkleptos wrote:<snip>
*sigh*

No. It's not dangerous, it is not scary. I *like* zombies, and I'm capable of admitting that. Zombies are people that slowly shuffle about and try to bite you. My cat, when pissed, is more dangerous than a zombie. An angry mob of ten people armed with whatever they could grab is more dangerous than a hundred zombies. Zombies are stupid, slow, and pathetic.

Give zombies the ability to run, and they only become marginally less pathetic. Yet running zombies are still less threatening than a mob one quarter its size. Just take a look at their capabilities:

A mob can:

- Use weapons.
- Use armor.
- Use vehicles.
- Climb ladders.
- Open doors.
- Communicate.
- Punch and kick.
- Think.
- Retreat.
- Deliberately set things on fire.

Zombies can do none of this. Zombies are not a credible threat, and any scenario that involves them being the dominant force on the planet has to rely on either factors that have nothing to do with their capabilities, or giving every military on earth a mass lobotomy.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Ford Prefect »

Actually, one of the most amusing parts of Dawn of the Dead was watching zombies shuffle up a ladder without using their hands to chase after the helicopter. This was subsequently followed by Peter deciding not to commit suicide and start beating up zombies to some seriously cheesy music. Then again, Dawn of the Dead had no pretentions as being some sort of 'scary' film or whatever.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Raxmei »

Brooks zombies are actually quite a bit dumber than Romero zombies. Romero zombies can use weapons, open doors, navigate to places they had been to in life, climb ladders, and probably a few other things I forgot that Brooks zombies can't do. It's also harder to keep an area clear of Romero zombies because it isn't purely a contagion. Just one of numerous reasons not to treat Brooks as the final authority on zombies.

Zombies on their own aren't that dangerous. From the beginning the genre's been about human stupidity dooming us to failure even against this not terribly lethal threat. There is some disagreement over how contrived this level of stupidity is.

The zombie's main weapons are surprise, fear, and overwhelming numbers. They don't start out with overwhelming numbers, and the surprise and fear wear off with time. For them to really be effective the first two have last long enough for the last one to build up.

Determined defenders racking up massive body counts of stupid but relentless assailants is a motif that I am getting tired of. It happens depressingly often in military sf even though it isn't a terribly interesting scenario. It's a cheap way to inflate the good guys's kill ratio and provide the illusion of a threat, and you only need the most basic knowledge of tactics to write it. Zombies in film don't usually do this, but zombies in games do.
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by K. A. Pital »

Raxmei wrote:Brooks zombies are actually quite a bit dumber than Romero zombies.
Which makes WWZ even worse and more ridiculous than Romero's zombie-wank. Zombie genre is fully built upon the bullshit "lone man with wepanz survivalist TRU in America!" wank, which makes it even more appaling.

Yeah, it's some sort of denial fantasy: "We have this enemy which isn't badass or anything and so HUR HUR we live in the wild and kill things. Also, GUVMINT FAILED!"

Why? Well, because if you give the zombies the ability to use modern firearms, making them not ridiculous as a threat, then the whole "HUR Americas survivalists last stand! TALL MEN WITH GUNZ!" thesis goes down and suddenly there's just a bunch of chickenshit civilians trying to evade enemy fire, basically a mob war. Not that romantic, right? And suddenly you start missing that military and police who "failed" to contain the contagion.

Oh well. I guess the reasons outlined by me and other posters here is why the "zombie" genre will never die, but at least people doing it could spend more time to provide a realistic reason for zombies to be a credible threat (contagion, world-wiping out pandemia a la Resident Evil or I Am Legend, ingelligent zombies capable of using firearms, uncanny strength and speed of zombies.. etc). All of those are cheap cop-outs, but even they make more sense than the WWZ scenario.

Also, zombies not dying after massive damage to body is perhaps the biggest mistake in the entire zombie genre. It makes zombies just a little more resilent at the cost of MAJOR SOD damage. Giving zombie authors a biology and biochemistry 101 would greatly help.
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Ford Prefect
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Re: Just read WWZ

Post by Ford Prefect »

Stas Bush wrote:Romero's zombie-wank.
This is amazing. It's like you've never seen a Romero zombie film, where at no point are the zombies ever really a threat, and at no point does it fulfill some sort of silly 'survivalist fantasy' thing. In Night of the Living Dead, the zombies are dangeorus only to the isolated group of mostly unarmed and frightened people stuck in a house clawing at each others' throats and at the end of the film a cobbled together militia is effectively containing them. In Dawn of the Dead, which is mostly a black comedy about materialism, the zombies pose essentially no threat to the characters unless they're unlucky or careless. It's basically the same thing in Day of the Dead, though the themes are different. I could go on. Additionally, the situations in both Dawn and Day fit the world-wide pandemia situation you're talking about better than almost any other zombie story in existence, given that anyone who dies will reanimate, regardless of who killed them, zombie or otherwise.
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