Thrawn vs Kobayashi Maru

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-02-05 11:42am

Aya wrote:Holy shit, Thrawn must have DS size balls to disagree with the Emperor like that.

As I said, it's one of my favourite scenes with Thrawn. EVER.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-05 01:08pm

I have found the relevant book (which is annoyingly not official, as we should have more TOS and less TNG+)

"We have drawn knowledge from every commander who ever lived - none of them could beat this computer now. There will always be more klingons, more damage, less time."

The question becomes, can Thrawn beat all the best commanders in history?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-05 02:20pm

NecronLord wrote:I have found the relevant book (which is annoyingly not official, as we should have more TOS and less TNG+)

"We have drawn knowledge from every commander who ever lived - none of them could beat this computer now. There will always be more klingons, more damage, less time."

The question becomes, can Thrawn beat all the best commanders in history?

But the computer cheats. It isn't that Thrawn would have to beat all the best commanders. There will always be additional forces, whether or not they are led really well doesn't matter. You can't win.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-05 03:27pm

Stravo wrote:Not great for a star spanning fascist empire, but just right for the feel good universe Rodenberry imagined. Remember, Gene was bullied into creating Klingons to be villians because he firmly believed that as a race became more advanced they would also advance moral wise. As much as you (and I ) may disagree with this it is a view that inspired a franchise that has grown since the 60's.

It's still dumb.

One can depict a fluffy utopia without pussifying the idea of the military.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-05 03:45pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stravo wrote:Not great for a star spanning fascist empire, but just right for the feel good universe Rodenberry imagined. Remember, Gene was bullied into creating Klingons to be villians because he firmly believed that as a race became more advanced they would also advance moral wise. As much as you (and I ) may disagree with this it is a view that inspired a franchise that has grown since the 60's.
It's still dumb.

One can depict a fluffy utopia without pussifying the idea of the military.

You miss Gene's point. He seriously felt that there would be no need for a dedicated military in the future because as man advanced technologically so would man advanced socially and morally. You and I disagree on this notion (Kind of reminds you of the clones issue, eh?

) but Gene's vision is what controls the ST universe. Remember throughout the series, even Kirk, arguably the most miltant of the ST Captains considered himself an explorer first and then a military commander. Gene was concerned with social issues not military ones. The one charcter trait he gave all his captains was comapssion and mercy: as the metrons said in Arena: "Mercy is an advanced trait." And Kirk tells Gary Mitchell in Where no One has Gone Before: "Gary, above all else a god needs mercy."

These are not the traits of a militaristic society and that was not what Gene was aiming for.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-05 03:52pm

Stravo wrote:These are not the traits of a militaristic society and that was not what Gene was aiming for.

One need not have a "militaristic society" in order to possess a military organization which knows how to act like one. A militaristic society is permeated with militarist sentiment (eg- any society where "serve your country" is automatically interpreted as "join the military" is arguably militarist), but it is entirely possible for a more liberal nation to possess a military for reasons of practicality and defense. This military would still have to be effective to be worthwhile.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-05 04:03pm

I apologize, I wasn't clear. Gene felt that a military would be anachronistic in the future. Why fight if all the reasons we would be fighting for are gone? There is no more hunger, poverty and such. Man himself is better, no longer the savage. Think of how the crew viewed eart of the 20th century in ST:IV as anachronistic and in many ways savage. They truly are beyond the motivations that would make one want to fight. He also felt that any other species that had advanced to that point would not want to fight either - note the attitude of the "godlike" aliens we regularly see on trek and the way they respond to violence as a barbaric trait. The Organians hatred it so much that violent thoughts HURT them.

So what I AM saying is that Gene did not beleive that a military would be important in the future and is more of an after thought.

Just to be clear once again - I DO NOT agree with this, but I understand it and respect it.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-05 04:24pm

Stravo wrote:I apologize, I wasn't clear. Gene felt that a military would be anachronistic in the future. Why fight if all the reasons we would be fighting for are gone? There is no more hunger, poverty and such. Man himself is better, no longer the savage. Think of how the crew viewed eart of the 20th century in ST:IV as anachronistic and in many ways savage. They truly are beyond the motivations that would make one want to fight. He also felt that any other species that had advanced to that point would not want to fight either - note the attitude of the "godlike" aliens we regularly see on trek and the way they respond to violence as a barbaric trait. The Organians hatred it so much that violent thoughts HURT them.

So what I AM saying is that Gene did not beleive that a military would be important in the future and is more of an after thought.

Just to be clear once again - I DO NOT agree with this, but I understand it and respect it.

Gene was incorrect on it though. If you like at paleolithic man, there was no real hunger, poverty, etc. Natural resources were extremely abundant and people didn't really have to work. Yet, there was still violence. There will always be a reason to fight.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-05 05:17pm

Stravo wrote:I apologize, I wasn't clear. Gene felt that a military would be anachronistic in the future. Why fight if all the reasons we would be fighting for are gone?

You don't consider the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg, a reason to fight?

There is no more hunger, poverty and such. Man himself is better, no longer the savage.

Thats their rhetoric, but it doesn't match their reality. Look at Tasha Yar's home planet.

Think of how the crew viewed eart of the 20th century in ST:IV as anachronistic and in many ways savage.

They were appauled by the lack of technology if anything else.

They truly are beyond the motivations that would make one want to fight.

You don't think self defense is a good reason to fight?

He also felt that any other species that had advanced to that point would not want to fight either

Then explain the Klingons. All they ever want to do is fight. Maybe not as much in TOS, but they were still a hostile superpower.

- note the attitude of the "godlike" aliens we regularly see on trek and the way they respond to violence as a barbaric trait. The Organians hatred it so much that violent thoughts HURT them.

And Q put Picard, Troi, Tasha and Data on trial for the crimes of an entire race. Is that civilized or barbaric?

[qoute]Just to be clear once again - I DO NOT agree with this, but I understand it and respect it.[/quote]You respect the idea that a military is unnecessary in a galaxy filled with agressive warlike aliens?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-05 06:06pm

As mentioned in a previous post of mine, the Klingons were a concession that Gene created when he was pushed by the other writers to create some sort of antagonist for the Feds, because as any good writer knows, if there is no conflict there really is no story. Gene did not want to use Klingons, or any other race that he used as enemies because it sort of violated his ideas about the future.

Note the prominence of the Cardasians and Romulans in TNG after Gene's death. In fact, after season two I beleive Gene was relegated toa figure head and so his ideas were no longer followed as strictly as they used to be. And as you can see, when the threats emerged, Starfleet's military grew along with them.

As for the issue of respect, yes, I can respect a man that says In the future we will be a better people than we are now. I don't believe this is so since the weight of history is against it, but respect it, yes.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-05 09:45pm

Stravo wrote:I apologize, I wasn't clear. Gene felt that a military would be anachronistic in the future. Why fight if all the reasons we would be fighting for are gone?

Then why did he envision his explorer ships as being heavily armed? Gene Roddenberry had specific ideas for the appearance and behaviour of weapons in the early seasons of TNG, where he was given much more free reign to act. If you want to go places and introduce yourself in peace, you don't do so in a vessel equipped with weapons of mass destruction.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-02-05 10:26pm

I don't understand why we are attacking Stravo here, forcing him to defend Star Trek and Gene in this matter. That's just the way it is, ST hasn't always known to be logical (neither has SW I will remind everyone), can't we just accept it and move on?

Obviously the KM scenario is unbeatable, the computer will cheat to win, what Thrawn will do has been established, if he doesn't know this going in, he is going to figure it out and leave the KM to go bye-bye. If he does know it going in, he won't do it under princible...

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-02-06 10:39am

In the book, during the scenario with Scotty, he realizes that there was no way actual Klingon cruisers would be able to inflict as much damage as the simulator reported. So he decided to cheat back

Did a pretty good job of it also.

Checkov decided to self-destruct the ship in his go "Given the reports, I dont think any of us would want to end up as prisoners of the Klingons"

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-02-06 12:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:Only in Star Trek are military training exercises conducted exclusively for the purpose of character-building. I'm surprised they don't show cadets sitting around in a big circle doing team-building exercises with some California self-help guru egging them on.

Unfortunately the American military is going in that same direction. The Marines recently switched hand to hand combat styles. The switched to a martial art because the previous style was "too violent". that is but one of many "small" changes being made to make the military more PC.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-02-06 01:44pm

From what I remember: Scotty beamed the warp core into one of the enemy ships, destroying all of them and creating a region of space that was un-traversable for the next few decades.

Does that match what you guys read? It been a while.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-07 04:20pm

Death from the Sea wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Only in Star Trek are military training exercises conducted exclusively for the purpose of character-building. I'm surprised they don't show cadets sitting around in a big circle doing team-building exercises with some California self-help guru egging them on.
Unfortunately the American military is going in that same direction. The Marines recently switched hand to hand combat styles. The switched to a martial art because the previous style was "too violent". that is but one of many "small" changes being made to make the military more PC.

Actually, I understand it was made because the new style disables people, and the old one (I think it was called Scar) was designed to kill them quick as possible, And given the type of war we are in now, you want a disabled person who can be questioned for information far more then you want a corpse.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-07 09:24pm

Can Marines draw their pistols really fast and then hit a moving target? 'cause that'd be really cool.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-02-10 12:21pm

Zoink wrote:From what I remember: Scotty beamed the warp core into one of the enemy ships, destroying all of them and creating a region of space that was un-traversable for the next few decades.

Does that match what you guys read? It been a while.

Scotty beamed clusters of torpedos to the junction points of the Klingons overlapping shields. Once he knew that the computer was cheating in regard to the amount of damage inflicted on his ship, he used the tactic above. In theory, the explosion of the torpedos would have overloaded the shields and destroyed the ships, which is what the simulator reported. In 'actuality' the overload doesnt happen, and Mr Scott is the one who built shield generators and proved that it wouldn't happen (as a teen iirc)

Right at the end, he was trying to get engineering to 'unlock the warp core' when the ship was blown up. He thought that if there had been an actual engineering section, he could have gotten the last wave.

He survived long enough to get back to the Federation side of the NZ, but the waves of K's kept coming.