Does Godzilla even breathe air? And other kaijuology

[TithonusSyndrome]

Something I've pondered before; Godzilla spends a four to five year interval hibernating in a volcano between "Godzilla Returns" and "Godzilla vs Biollante", upwards of a week migrating through the liquid mantle of the earth from the South Pacific to Mount Fuji in "Godzilla VS Mothra", and of course remains underwater pretty much indefinitely for as much as years at a time in any given film. We also see that in "Godzilla Returns", cadmium dirty weapons fired into his mouth put him into a coma-like state, suggesting that neutron absorption is more damaging to him than most any other weapons and therefore his radioactive biology is more comprehensive than first thought, which possibly means that cellular respiration or whatever analogous process he undergoes requires no oxygen because it has a "nuclear" mechanism. Godzilla has never been shown to feed, either, and the closest thing appears to be him raiding a reactor in "Godzilla Returns," further lending to the notion of an all-nuclear organism.

This would also have consequences for paleontologist Kenneth Carpenter's view of Godzilla (pdf warning), the de facto Curtis Saxton of Godzilla if you will, who suggests that Godzilla "breathes flame" by way of "controlled burps" releasing methane. Since the diaphragm may be completely vestigial in Godzilla and barely capable of doing anything other than roaring, to say nothing of the fact that it's fairly obvious he doesn't simply "breathe fire", that idea and the no-oxygen theory are not bosom friends.

[Anguirus]

This is pretty much what we came up with years ago on the Kaijuphile forums. Mind you, there are ten-ish different Godzillas in different continuities, but air seems to be pretty much optional for Heisei Godzilla. The only odd element is the fact that King Ghidorah managed to make him writhe and foam by throttling him, but this was during a battle situation where he may have been breathing hard to supplement his energy reserves, or even just for psychological reasons (he is derived from a theropod, after all).

Carpenter's essay was meant, I believe, only to apply to the first Godzilla. Plus, simply because he doesn't NEED to breathe doesn't mean his respiratory system has been reduced to a vestigial state...in fact, Toho-produced diagrams of Godzilla's internal anatomy contradict this idea.

[TithonusSyndrome]

This is pretty much what we came up with years ago on the Kaijuphile forums. Mind you, there are ten-ish different Godzillas in different continuities, but air seems to be pretty much optional for Heisei Godzilla.

Most all of the Godzillas spend indefinite periods of time underwater; Minira non-canonically stated in "All Monsters Attack!" that Godzilla could breathe underwater, which isn't necessarily true but does go to show that he can spend periods of time underwater that can't be accounted for by him simply holding his breath, especially if he's exerting himself or being winded from strikes by his opponent.

The only odd element is the fact that King Ghidorah managed to make him writhe and foam by throttling him, but this was during a battle situation where he may have been breathing hard to supplement his energy reserves, or even just for psychological reasons (he is derived from a theropod, after all).

Yeah, definitely weird, but not impossible to account for; it seems to me he was struggling to use his beam and that's why he went with the nuclear pulse instead. Hell, he could simply have been trying to spit on Ghidorah for all we know.

Carpenter's essay was meant, I believe, only to apply to the first Godzilla. Plus, simply because he doesn't NEED to breathe doesn't mean his respiratory system has been reduced to a vestigial state...in fact, Toho-produced diagrams of Godzilla's internal anatomy contradict this idea.

I'm of the mind that literally every scientist in every Godzilla film is absolutely flummoxed as to how his anatomy works, and just ends up grasping at straws. After all, didn't Yamane say in the first film that Godzilla was 400 feet tall and a mere two million years old?

[Styphon]

For the sake of completeness, let's not forget Showa Godzilla in Monster Zero.

Though I'm a bit hazy on whether or not Planet X actually has an atmosphere (which, I suppose, also raises the question of how the hell Rodan and Ghidorah fly).

[Sea Skimmer]

I always assumed Godzilla's, at least the original ones, fire breath was not actually fire, it sure doesn’t look like a sheet of flames in the 1954 version. I assumed it was a mixture of hard and thermal radiation, which also explains how it can melt steel towers and explode tanks almost instantaneously. The visual effect would be simply the result of the air being superheated by the passage of the radiation.

[FA Xerrik]

The water examples, at least, could be addressed via cutaneous gas exchange. Like Anguirus postulated, it seems likely that in high-stress situations such a process is insufficient to meet oxygen needs, but underwater or while hibernating it may well suffice. Of course, the lava examples (and potentially outer space: didn't he also fight on the moon?) are more difficult. It would really be no more than wild assumption on my part, but convective circulation in the mantle could potentially explain his ability to "move" from the South Pacific to Fuji, and I believe his entombment at the end of Godzilla 1985 resulted in hibernation he had to be awakened from, not one it was believed he would emerge from naturally. He may well have a sort of "stand-by" mode that meets all his energy needs solely by nuclear processes, yet renders him non-functional in a conventional sense. Again, this would just be conjecture on my part, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

[Swindle1984]

The whole throttling thing could have Godzilla reacting to having blood to his brain cut off. Just squeeze a person's neck by the arteries and they'll pass out, regardless of whether or not their airways are blocked.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Though I'm a bit hazy on whether or not Planet X actually has an atmosphere (which, I suppose, also raises the question of how the hell Rodan and Ghidorah fly).

Trading cards I had as a kid stated that Rodan exerted magnetic force to lift off and that Ghidorah had nigh-Lovecraftian control over the fundamental force of gravity, at least to the point where he could levitate himself. Probably not canon, but I think one or two of the films imply this as well and neither has wings that could provide adequate lift using simple aerodynamics, at any rate.

[Styphon]

The latter would certainly fit with the numerous references to Ghidorah's breath weapon as "gravity beams" in various fanzines and the like. And the magnetism thing might help explain some of the more destructive effects of Rodan's flight... and fit with the magnetic containment of Rodan in Destroy All Monsters, come to think of it.

More directly on topic: do we have any canon examples of the (in)effectiveness of gas attacks against Godzilla? Those would tend to count firmly in favor of breathing, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Ford Prefect]

I always assumed Godzilla's, at least the original ones, fire breath was not actually fire, it sure doesn’t look like a sheet of flames in the 1954 version. I assumed it was a mixture of hard and thermal radiation, which also explains how it can melt steel towers and explode tanks almost instantaneously. The visual effect would be simply the result of the air being superheated by the passage of the radiation.

I always thought it was a given that Godzilla actually fired nuclear laser beams out of his mouth. Even when I was a kid I always though 'fff, Godzilla does not breathe mere fire'. Though to be honest I actually thought this was a relatively recent convention; I have not seen one of the very original Gozilla films in a very long time.

[TithonusSyndrome]

The latter would certainly fit with the numerous references to Ghidorah's breath weapon as "gravity beams" in various fanzines and the like.

That and him being able to take off from a standstill directly upwards or hover in midair.

More directly on topic: do we have any canon examples of the (in)effectiveness of gas attacks against Godzilla? Those would tend to count firmly in favor of breathing, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

We know he doesn't gag when he's in a thicket of smoke, and while it's obviously just an SFX limitation, the fact that he doesn't disturb smoke that swirls around his mouth but rather lets it lazily waft through his teeth and lips also suggests he neither inhales nor exhales.

I always thought it was a given that Godzilla actually fired nuclear laser beams out of his mouth. Even when I was a kid I always though 'fff, Godzilla does not breathe mere fire'. Though to be honest I actually thought this was a relatively recent convention; I have not seen one of the very original Gozilla films in a very long time.

Skimmer's explanation does lose some of it's potency as the films move on; how do we account for the beam's range and cohesion? He can shoot down fucking jet aircraft, no less. I can't imagine the kind of control that would take to aim that well if my mouth was a weapon aperture.

And it's range of color from white to blue, and of course red later on?

[Styphon]

Off the top of my head...
In Godzilla, King of the Monsters (1954), the breath weapon pretty much just looks like a blast of steam.
Throughout the Showa series, its appearance changes, more or less at random, between the steam and a sort of jet of blue gas and the blue ray that I always assumed was what it was supposed to look like.
Godzilla 1985, it's all blue ray, all the time... though it has this weird curve to it that's always bugged me, particularly when he shoots through that building to get at the Super X.
Godzilla vs. Biollante through Godzilla vs. Mothra, consistently blue ray, and consistently straight like a ray should be.
The red ray makes its first appearance at the end of Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla (2), shows up again for a bit in Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla, and is there for the whole movie in Godzilla vs. Destroyah
Godzilla 2000 gives us a new orange ray, which is used throughout the film and on through Godzilla x Megaguiras.
Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All Out Attack I've only seen once, but I seem to recall the weird curve being back, the beam being white, and, of course, the damn mushroom clouds whenever it went off. I'm a little hazy on the two Kiryu films as well, so hopefully somebody else can fill those in.
Final Wars went back to the Heisei set up of blue beam with red beam for super-attacks, IIRC.

[Lusankya]

Could the change in ray colour indicate a temperature difference between the different Godzillas' breath weapon?

Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All Out Attack I've only seen once, but I seem to recall the weird curve being back, the beam being white, and, of course, the damn mushroom clouds whenever it went off.

GMK was a bit different from all the other Godzillas. Instead of being a radioactive lizard which just happened to personify the destructive forces of nature, Godzilla was the literal embodiment of the tortured souls of the Pacific War. Really. That was the in-universe explanation. Mothra, Baragon and King Gidorah were secret Japanese gods who were only known by this one dead soldier. As such, I'm not sure if it really counts in the regular continuity in any way. (Yeah, it's weird, but I like it. Besides, the Admiral's hot.) I think it may have been Toho's attempt to apologise on behalf of Japan for World War II.

[Majin Gojira]

More directly on topic: do we have any canon examples of the (in)effectiveness of gas attacks against Godzilla? Those would tend to count firmly in favor of breathing, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

King Kong vs. Godzilla. They build a pit trap to gas the hell out of him to no avail.

Another solid example of Godzilla not needing air is found in the Heisie series' Godzilla vs. Mothra/Godzilla and Mothra: the Battle for Earth where he swims in the earth's mantel from the Pacific Ocean to Mt. Fuji. Over several days.

A scientist comments "he just beat our current understanding of sceince" or something along those lines.

Final Wars went back to the Heisei set up of blue beam with red beam for super-attacks, IIRC.

That final beam was Golden.

[Styphon]

I think King Kong vs. Godzilla also deserves special mention as one of two Godzilla movies I've avoided watching when I can as a particularly strong example of the "scientists are just grasping at straws" effect Tithonus mentioned. Crossbreed of a Tyrannosaurus and a Stegosaurus, riiiight.

My mistake on the golden beam.

[Majin Gojira]

That's only in the Universal Dub of it.

Which throws out the soundtrack in favor of the soundtrack from "The Creature from The Black Lagoon" among other minor changes (though not much about who won).

[Styphon]

So you're saying if I can track down a fansubbed version of the original Japanese cut, it'll be less cringe-inducing? Or will Kong's suit still be too ugly, no matter which cut I'm watching?

[NecronLord]

Godzilla really doesn't pretend to be sci-fi as far as I know.

Off to Fantasy.

[Majin Gojira]

So you're saying if I can track down a fansubbed version of the original Japanese cut, it'll be less cringe-inducing? Or will Kong's suit still be too ugly, no matter which cut I'm watching?

He'll still look like a sock monkey no matter what you do, but you'll have different music and some dialogue changes...and a few others IIRC.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Godzilla 1985, it's all blue ray, all the time... though it has this weird curve to it that's always bugged me, particularly when he shoots through that building to get at the Super X.

I'm not sure, but I think that's just perspective.

Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All Out Attack I've only seen once, but I seem to recall the weird curve being back, the beam being white, and, of course, the damn mushroom clouds whenever it went off. I'm a little hazy on the two Kiryu films as well, so hopefully somebody else can fill those in.

I know just the scene you're thinking of, and it was shot with a fisheye camera lens. His beam doesn't curve anywhere outside of that scene.

Godzilla really doesn't pretend to be sci-fi as far as I know.

Off to Fantasy.

And as far as I know, you've never demonstrated enough knowledge of the series to indicate you've watched one movie and treat it with open contempt. Godzilla threads have never been moved from OSF before; why now? It's about as sci-fi as Trek, with about the same mix of broken science and godlike or psychic beings.

[Anguirus]

^ Agreed. Godzilla is a cornerstone of Japanese science-fiction, and the first movie routinely makes lists of the best sci-fi movies ever made. If you ask me how Godzilla can be so tall, I'll ask you how Klaatu's spaceship flies.

Anyway, there is a scientific gaffe in the first film that puts Godzilla's age at "2 million years old, the Jurassic period." Interestingly enough, it was corrected mere months later in the second film. Godzilla is only "400 feet tall" in the Raymond Burr version. They are fairly good at keeping his size consistent within a particular film, though he sometimes grows or shrinks in different continuities or even, in one case, for plot reasons.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Anyway, there is a scientific gaffe in the first film that puts Godzilla's age at "2 million years old, the Jurassic period." Interestingly enough, it was corrected mere months later in the second film. Godzilla is only "400 feet tall" in the Raymond Burr version. They are fairly good at keeping his size consistent within a particular film, though he sometimes grows or shrinks in different continuities or even, in one case, for plot reasons.

I'm not chapped about the inability of specific characters to give consistent figures for his size, but I rather kind of like the idea that scientists recoil with Cthulhu-like terror at their inability to explain Godzilla. For me, one of the latter moments in the franchise that really did the character great justice long after the focus on him was lost in all the free for all action, was in the '92 GVM flick that Majin mentioned where the scientist in the helicopter observing Godzilla's Mt. Fuji emergence looked over to his companion with a hushed, grave expression and pretty much said "I have no fucking idea how he did what he just did, it ought to be completely impossible." It's not especially canon, per se, but there's nothing that rules it out and it beats taking a lot of them on their word.

[Tsyroc]

So you're saying if I can track down a fansubbed version of the original Japanese cut, it'll be less cringe-inducing? Or will Kong's suit still be too ugly, no matter which cut I'm watching?

He'll still look like a sock monkey no matter what you do, but you'll have different music and some dialogue changes...and a few others IIRC.

But the battles between him and Kong are worth the laugh. There's also the natives with the coconut bikinis.

It's also one of the few movies I remember where Godzilla's radioactive breath actually looks like fire a few times. It looked much better than the cheezy "beam" that became common in the later 70s movies. The late 80s onward the beam started looking good and made sense for the character. By that time his beam was like the focused heat, force and radiation of an atomic explosion.

[Majin Gojira]

For the early films (Pre- Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster) I basically concluded that Godzilla's breath weapon was a spray of superheated radioactive gas. What that gas was is anyones guess.

[Tsyroc]

Off the top of my head...
In Godzilla, King of the Monsters (1954), the breath weapon pretty much just looks like a blast of steam.

I think the idea was to make it sort of like fallout, at least that's what I've heard bounced around at times.

I guess it could make sense if they were trying to go with a biological reason for the breath weapon. Just make it the spitting mist a mutation of something that the original creature might have done for whatever reason and then make it super radioactive because of the bomb tests that super mutated the creature into Godzilla.

the Showa series, its appearance changes, more or less at random, between the steam and a sort of jet of blue gas and the blue ray that I always assumed was what it was supposed to look like.

As a kid I prefered the the jet look that they did in King Kong versus Godzilla.

Godzilla 1985, it's all blue ray, all the time... though it has this weird curve to it that's always bugged me, particularly when he shoots through that building to get at the Super X.

It's been a long time since I've watched this movie since I only have it on VHS. I never thought about it being curved due to perspective. I just assumed it was shown that way on purpose because there were a few 70s G-flicks where the beam was really curved all over the place.

Godzilla vs. Biollante through Godzilla vs. Mothra, consistently blue ray, and consistently straight like a ray should be.
The red ray makes its first appearance at the end of Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla (2), shows up again for a bit in Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla, and is there for the whole movie in Godzilla vs. Destroyah

I think they finally got really good at the rotoscoping and on occasion added some nice physical effects to make the whole deal look good. It was with these movies that I really started liking the whole radioactive heat beam/ray idea over the "jet" look.

I'm not sure the red ray really makes sense as a "power up". I would tend to think that blue would be a hotter more focused beam that the splattering all over red but they do a decent job of selling it as Godzilla pushing himself and it doing more damage.

Godzilla 2000 gives us a new orange ray, which is used throughout the film and on through Godzilla x Megaguiras.
Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All Out Attack I've only seen once, but I seem to recall the weird curve being back, the beam being white, and, of course, the damn mushroom clouds whenever it went off. I'm a little hazy on the two Kiryu films as well, so hopefully somebody else can fill those in.
Final Wars went back to the Heisei set up of blue beam with red beam for super-attacks, IIRC.

The Kiryu movies are kind of a mix between the 90s and GMKG versions when it comes to Godzilla's ray. It's back to being blue, his fins crackle and glow again instead of the slow build up of heat and glow of G2K. The range and power seems pretty good, maybe not quite as good as GMKG's version. I don't recall any overly noticeable curve to the beam.