How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Forum Troll wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:How about refrigerators with internal UV lights to kill bacteria, or circulating clouds of nanomachines to make sure food stays fresh or at least undecomposed?
UV that goes on only when the door is closed, so people wouldn't be exposed?
Wouldn't need to be on continuously - but you would need some safety devices to keep idiots from tinkering with it enough to hurt themselves.
A terrestrial hyperstructure or arcology or a space colony is going to need a lot of air processing anyway. If you put UV bulbs or emitters in the air ducts, you could sterilize the invisible aerosol droplets in the air which carry airborne viruses, such as those that contaminate a room's air after somebody sneezes. Is it worth the trouble? It's not that much extra trouble if just one part of a whole processing system also used or needed for removing pollutants. The future guys might feel it was worthwhile if their recent history included deadly pandemics from bioterror.
Actually, we already have UV sterilization in both research labs and in hospital isolation wards, including your idea of incorporating it into ductwork used to transport air. Currently, cost is a factor but there is also the aspect that absolute sanitation isn't required in most of daily life.
In other uses, optionally go from UV to x-rays, for deep penetration. In Switzerland, they currently have irradiated milk. It's awesome. It has been sterilized and sealed so it doesn't need refrigeration, so you can store it long-term for weeks in your cupboard, just putting a container in the refrigerator when drinking that particular milk carton. (Either the U.S. FDA hasn't approved it yet, or public ignorance makes major companies hesitate to market it in the U.S. so far).
Mostly, it's consumer resistance. Raditation sterialization is used for spices, medical devices, and the US mail (the anthrax scare started that). There are irradiated foodstuffs available in the US, but they are not commonly sold due to lack of demand and consumer fear/resistance.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Forum Troll wrote:
Sky Captain wrote:Although having a personal recreational blimp would be awesomely cool
Yes! You got the point: something awesomely cool.

Obviously there is already recreational flight now. Yet spending often a hour round-trip driving to go to the nearest runway (airport) and back is just the start of the nuisances.
Well, yes and no - I live a 10 minute bike ride from my nearest runway. Location, location, location.

This is, runways are incompatible with dense concentrations of urbanites. So if we all wind up crammed into highrises (as some have suggested) yes there will be a helacious drive to the local airport. Airports require space - and frankly, that's true even for helicoptors and blimps.
Low-altitude blimp flight even at slow speed or hovering, AI controlled but under the passenger's instructions? Land on a hilltop, reach out and touch the top of a tree?
... and idiot human falls out and gets injured/killed....
Maybe it couldn't be permitted everywhere but maybe in some parks, some city areas.
Not practical in cities because skyscraper, buildings, towers, etc. all create turbulent air currents. These would, at best, be unpleasent. At worst, they would cause accidents.

Parks? Possibily - but again, you need SPACE - lots and lots of space.
Only a helicopter can currently land everywhere. Private helicopters are rare, expensive, and not casual user-friendly. Even merely forgetting to duck below the extremely-dangerous open rotors when walking up to a helo can get people decapitated if the rotors ever droop or tilt too much.
Airplane propellors have similar hazards. I could share a few very gorey tales, should I be so inclined.
Current recreational light aircraft are already weather restricted. A friend of mine can fly only 1/2 to 2/3rds of the weekends, after reviewing the weather forecast, because more than a moderate wind or cloudy weather is too much. He knew somebody else who tried to take off in a 30 or 40 knot wind but screwed up while taxiing and got his light plane literally flipped over and ruined.

Most people are used to more robust airline jets with instrument-rated pilots which handle more.
I've seen the results of a business jet attempting a take-off in a 40+ knot wind and not making it - very unpleasent. 40 knots is when the big airlines start thinking about cancelling/delaying flights. Sure, they CAN do it but anyone who tells you there isn't an increased risk is full of shit.

Recreational aircraft are weather restricted largely due to physics, not regulations (although there are regulations written to reflect physics).
There should be many spots to land the blimps, as they don't need runways, just a local robot on the ground to help tether them.
So, OK, you have to land where the "ground robots" are - how common are they?

Also, it's not JUST a matter of tying down the blimp. The side of a blimp reacts to wind much as the sail of a boat would... except blimps tend to have very large areas exposed to the wind. It doesn't take much of a breeze to add up to TONS of force acting on the object. That is, after all, how sailing ships work. Even small airplanes require strudy tie-downs and they have much smaller areas to act as sails than do blimps. Unless you have a hangar, you can't just tether it, you have to deflate it. Commercial blimps handle this problem by, for the most part, relocating to avoid bad weather.
Also, don't discount the possibility of domed cities, since we are talking about the future here. (They'd save huge amounts of energy on heating and air conditioning, incidentally, as a "single big building" is more efficient than thousands of small buildings sticking up like the spikes of a radiator, less surface area relative to volume).
Domed cities are horseshit if you're talking about planet Earth. Seriously - the cost in materials to build such a thing would be ridiculous, then you'd have to have massive air circulation capability, power the air circulation, worry about toxic fume build up, greenhouse effects in summer would require massive, massive amounts of cooling.... It's just effing ridiculous. "Single big building" is more efficient only up to a point, after which you get rapidly diminishing returns.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Broomstick wrote:Laproscopic gallbladder removal involves only a very few, tiny cuts - but one of the complications is liver failure followed by either transplant or death. A small cut in the wrong place, or poorly done, can certainly have life-threatening consequences. There is also the possibility of a poor reaction to anything introduced into the body, and there is always a problem of infection in any surgery.
Accidentally cutting or nicking the wrong duct in a process that is refined compared to past methods but still fundamentally cutting into somebody with knives?

Today:

Laparoscopic gallbladder removal: mortality rate highly variable but like 0.2%.

An improvement over the old open gallbladder surgery, far smaller incisions, made possible by the Laparoscope technology with a miniature video camera so the surgeon can see inside.

It's relatively safe by current standards for a major surgery (removing a whole organ centimeters in dimension), so much so that many publications for the public gloss over the risks entirely. Yet the patient loses weeks of their life on average if you average out a 0.2% mortality rate. The vast majority of patients survive fine, but one out of every few hundred dies and loses the remaining decades of their life.

Obviously it's not just random, depending on the age of the patient, the carefulness of the surgeon, and more, yet it's still a major risk. If a car design crashed and killed everybody onboard every 500 trips, that'd be a big deal. People don't think of the risk as equivalent to if it had the nuisance of a month-long hospital stay, but it is truly the equivalent average harm in the aspect of average lifetime lost, even though not literally that.

Tomorrow?:

I wouldn't pretend to be able to tell the details of the best way, but there may be a still better way to eliminate gallstones and prevent their occurrence. What if there was no need to make any incisions or true surgery at all?

(While that's not an entirely new idea, with rare past usage of MTBE solvent chemical injected through a needle, that had issues from extreme pain to the gallstones coming back later, while oral medication taken over years also has its own weaknesses, as does ultrasound).

Example: What if microrobots could be swallowed in an acid-resistant pill capsule entering the stomach, controlled to crawl up the duct, eliminate the gallstones, and stay there afterward to stop reoccurrence? What if such could be done without the incisions and surgery of today? What if it could be refined until it didn't have the same risks and mortality rate of current surgery?
It's not impossible, but I think it highly unlikely. As I said, removable appliances are much more likely and, while the risks of catastrophic injury in regards to implants may be rare, the mere fact that they can be catastrophic will make people less inclined to run them for mere convenience.
Depending on how many multipurpose functions and extra capabilities the implants add, they might be more than mere convenience connotates. Yet certainly the degree of risk is important. That in turn depends on unknown details of future technology. If an implant can work while not deep into the body, it is easier made safe.

Your gallbladder removal surgery example involves cutting inches deep into the body. If something could be only a little beneath the skin and not involve major incisions, that all would help (as compared to your example of removing an organ centimeters in dimension).

Certainly there's major competition from what can be done without implants. Communication isn't a strictly implant-requiring application, so that makes it technologically harder to be worthwhile, though that doesn't rule it out.
Oh, I believe the price - it's the amount required and the total cost that I dispute. There are people who fly personal blimps now - last time I spoke to one he said it cost him $3,000 to fill up his ship for a flight. I had no reason to doubt his claim, and as he had actual experience in owning and flying such an aircraft I tend to trust his statement.
Bulk usage of helium is such a specialty today that there's no telling how much it would cost from a small distributor in a random location. It would vary. How often do they get a truck of helium? How much do they need to charge to their limited number of customers to make the shipment worthwhile?

$2 per cubic meter is rather only the cost in bulk from big suppliers. I doubt he used $3000 of helium at that price rate. The resulting 1500 cubic meters would be more than needed for a minimal blimp, rather displacing 1900 kilograms of air (which is 1.3 kg a cubic meter, STP) and lifting up to 1700 kilograms of structure, hardware, and passengers. Unless he had a blimp far larger than that required to lift one or two sub-100 kilo passengers even with a fair extra margin, more likely he just got helium from a distributor costing more than the bulk price elsewhere.

So maybe he paid $3000 but most likely to a comparatively expensive local supplier.

Besides, even $3000 is still pretty affordable unless you're assuming it leaks out at a rate requiring replacement too often.
Initially, yes, but the cost of helium will be the major, on-going expense. There is no envelope material that completely elminates leakage.
Leakage rate is utterly dependent on the materials. Depending upon what we assume on the details of the design and the future mats, it could be whatever you expect, or it could be 10% or 1% as much.
Assuming we're still talking about planet Earth, why the hell would we dome a city
It's a common sci-fi idea. Mostly that's because it looks cool. Yet there is a major advantage. Bigger objects lose less heat relative to their volume, less surface area proportionally, like a bear is better off in the Arctic than an insect. People have done the math before and determined you could reduce heating and air conditioning energy requirements by some huge amount like 10x.

Flying blimps in the nice weather inside is merely a side benefit if you built a domed city anyway for other reasons. Incidentally, if there was undesirably high leakage of helium from blimps inside, the helium concentration inside might get well above the 5 parts per million in the atmosphere outside, so you might look into recycling it after leakage, putting some sort of membrane collection system in the ducts of your heating & air conditioning system.

EDITING: I see your new post. You can't make pre-judgments without math that much regarding domed cities. I've seen an article before doing the math on cost payback times. Obviously they face barriers to being built starting with municipal governments being about the least innovative entities imaginable, explaining why not done so far, but they are a possibility, not a guaranteed future but a possibility.
<snip>
I read your post, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not, but replying point-by-point would just doom this to an exponentially increasing overflow of verbosity with each new exchange, breaking down paragraphs down line by line. I went overboard already.

I'm interested in what people think of as cool or hearing the creative or wild ideas of other people (which are less likely if each had to go through hours of proof to even be brainstormed), but it's not my job to try to rigorously prove something will happen in the vague future.
You may not have heard - I'm having an exceedingly bad week. I'll try to minimize the influence on my non-related postings.
Oh, ok.
I will also state that a 20 mph recreational blimp is EXTREMELY limited - you'd be better off in so many ways with a powered parachute that goes the same speed but requires far less in materials and space for storage.
Depends on whether being able to hover is a big part of the attraction.
Of course, you ARE talking about pure recreation, at least in part, so you can be very choosey about when you fly. I just wanted to point out that what is perceived as a gentle breeze on the ground can be quite a different thing once you're off the ground.
Yes.
Actually, we already have UV sterilization in both research labs and in hospital isolation wards, including your idea of incorporating it into ductwork used to transport air. Currently, cost is a factor but there is also the aspect that absolute sanitation isn't required in most of daily life.
Indeed.
Mostly, it's consumer resistance. Raditation sterialization is used for spices, medical devices, and the US mail (the anthrax scare started that). There are irradiated foodstuffs available in the US, but they are not commonly sold due to lack of demand and consumer fear/resistance.
Now that likely changes over generations.

People accepted household microwaves pretty well not because most are good at understanding any type of radiation but since the faster-cooking convenience motivated them to put aside their potential objections. Convenient irradiated milk that doesn't take up refrigerator space until use has the potential. As more people hear of other people drinking it unharmed, gradually it may become accepted in more countries.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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General Zod wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote: So nobody is ever going to rent an apartment they can't afford, right? They're never going to take out a loan to get that nice big apartment to compete with the joneses, eh?
It's possible, but far less likely. For anyone who has ever bothered living on their own, the apartment building managers actually perform background checks to make sure that their tenants have a source of income capable of paying on a steady basis.
So the guys selling mortgages and loans are incapable of also doing that?
Hey, why do I have to do it for birth control but you don't have to justify your hard-on for cramming people into tall buildings?
The fact that you seem to think apartment living is this hideous experience is hilarious and makes me wonder if you've actually ever been out on your own before.
I have not. I'm in school. I've been down town and I hate it down there. What's it to you?
Are you honestly suggesting you find running out of usable land preferable to living in an apartment building? Because that's really what you're driving at here. Since millions of people live in apartments anyway, it's easier to convince them that apartment living is not that bad compared to getting them to resist a biological impulse (because that's worked oh so well for the church).
Again, it's called birth control. It works so well for Germany and Japan that they have negative population growth rates.
You think there's no social inertia there, either?
It works for Japan, why can't it work for the US?
Japan... is insane when put next to Europe. But I'm not sure how much of it is just their culture versus how much of it has to do with their mind-bogglingly high population density.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Ryan Thunder wrote: So the guys selling mortgages and loans are incapable of also doing that?
Apartment complexes actually have a great deal more regulation involved than the housing industry. Of course if they wound up doing the same as apartment managers and actually had even remotely similar stringent regulations, more people would be living in apartments anyway by virtue of being unable to meet the income requirements.
I have not. I'm in school. I've been down town and I hate it down there. What's it to you?
Then perhaps you shouldn't be so critical about living in apartments with such an incredibly limited amount of experience when it comes to dealing with the real world.
Again, it's called birth control. It works so well for Germany and Japan that they have negative population growth rates.
Germany and Japan are also among the least religious countries in the world.
Japan... is insane when put next to Europe. But I'm not sure how much of it is just their culture versus how much of it has to do with their mind-bogglingly high population density.
The vast majority of Europe does happen to live in apartment buildings you know. But Japan is a perfect example of a country running out of usable land for construction.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Broomstick »

Forum Troll wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Laproscopic gallbladder removal involves only a very few, tiny cuts - but one of the complications is liver failure followed by either transplant or death. A small cut in the wrong place, or poorly done, can certainly have life-threatening consequences. There is also the possibility of a poor reaction to anything introduced into the body, and there is always a problem of infection in any surgery.
Accidentally cutting or nicking the wrong duct in a process that is refined compared to past methods but still fundamentally cutting into somebody with knives?
Ya, basically that's the biggest risk for laproscopic gallbladder removal. It continues to become safer as tools and (very important) training methods improve and doctors gain greater and greater experience with the procedure. However, I can't imagine it ever having zero risk. Surgery is never truly safe, that it is so often successful is due to vigilence and care.
I wouldn't pretend to be able to tell the details of the best way, but there may be a still better way to eliminate gallstones and prevent their occurrence. What if there was no need to make any incisions or true surgery at all?
Well, really, you hit on the best solution already - prevent their occurance. Or have a non-surgical means to deal with them when they do occur. Certainly people continue to try to develop non-surgical alternatives.
Example: What if microrobots could be swallowed in an acid-resistant pill capsule entering the stomach, controlled to crawl up the duct, eliminate the gallstones, and stay there afterward to stop reoccurrence? What if such could be done without the incisions and surgery of today? What if it could be refined until it didn't have the same risks and mortality rate of current surgery?
Well, that's fine but I can't help but think microrobots, like any device, will have at least an occassional failure rate, not be suited to all patients, and so forth. Things break and people make mistakes. Ideally we minimize how often that happens, but given reality those thing WILL continue to happen, even at a low rate of occurence. So much depends on how infrequent the failings of a particular technique may be.
Depending on how many multipurpose functions and extra capabilities the implants add, they might be more than mere convenience connotates. Yet certainly the degree of risk is important. That in turn depends on unknown details of future technology. If an implant can work while not deep into the body, it is easier made safe.
That is a good point - a superficial implant that could be removed as easily as, say, a splinter is far different than something deeply embedded in the brain.

Cochlear implants actually have a component that is implanted under the skin, and external portions that are removeable, so that is yet another alternative.
Oh, I believe the price - it's the amount required and the total cost that I dispute. There are people who fly personal blimps now - last time I spoke to one he said it cost him $3,000 to fill up his ship for a flight. I had no reason to doubt his claim, and as he had actual experience in owning and flying such an aircraft I tend to trust his statement.
Bulk usage of helium is such a specialty today that there's no telling how much it would cost from a small distributor in a random location. It would vary. How often do they get a truck of helium? How much do they need to charge to their limited number of customers to make the shipment worthwhile?

$2 per cubic meter is rather only the cost in bulk from big suppliers. I doubt he used $3000 of helium at that price rate. The resulting 1500 cubic meters would be more than needed for a minimal blimp, rather displacing 1900 kilograms of air (which is 1.3 kg a cubic meter, STP) and lifting up to 1700 kilograms of structure, hardware, and passengers. Unless he had a blimp far larger than that required to lift one or two sub-100 kilo passengers even with a fair extra margin, more likely he just got helium from a distributor costing more than the bulk price elsewhere.
The thing is, a wholesaler/bulk distributer requires you to purchase a certain minimal quantity. If you don't need that much either you must purchase it from a distributor, or you must have a means of storing it. Either way, it costs more than the base price you quoted. As I said, that figure was from someone who actually owns an operates a personal blimp (a two-seat airship, to be precise, so it can lift two average adult males plus engine, fuel, avionics, etc.) That is the cost of a helium fill today - if such blimps became more common it might become more commonplace for airports to, say, purchase helium in bulk and dole it out as needed, just as they buy fuel in bulk, store it in tanks, and sell it in small quantity to pilots as needed. At that point, economy of scale and frequency of sale will start to bring the price down.
Besides, even $3000 is still pretty affordable unless you're assuming it leaks out at a rate requiring replacement too often.
As I do not know the leakage rate I will simply say that your point is valid.
Leakage rate is utterly dependent on the materials. Depending upon what we assume on the details of the design and the future mats, it could be whatever you expect, or it could be 10% or 1% as much.
True, it is material dependent, but helium molecules are freakin' tiny - it's not just the cost of the material, it's also imposing sufficient quality control to prevent even minor defects that lead to leaks. Greater quality control means greater cost.
It's a common sci-fi idea. Mostly that's because it looks cool.
Ya, OK.
Yet there is a major advantage. Bigger objects lose less heat relative to their volume, less surface area proportionally, like a bear is better off in the Arctic than an insect.
That's only an advantage if you're in a cold climate. In a lot of ways it would be cheaper to build down rather than doming a city, but underground construction has it's drawbacks, too.

Also, heating/cooling is not the only factor to consider in the costs of a structure.
I read your post, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not, but replying point-by-point would just doom this to an exponentially increasing overflow of verbosity with each new exchange, breaking down paragraphs down line by line. I went overboard already.
Long, point by point posts usually indicate we're interested in your ideas and are taking you seriously (when we're not it will be VERY clear, trust me). It was not done to annoy or shoot you down but to engage in a discussion.
I'm interested in what people think of as cool or hearing the creative or wild ideas of other people (which are less likely if each had to go through hours of proof to even be brainstormed), but it's not my job to try to rigorously prove something will happen in the vague future.
Of course not - but there's no harm in trying to determine obstacles to a technology or how likely it may be.
I will also state that a 20 mph recreational blimp is EXTREMELY limited - you'd be better off in so many ways with a powered parachute that goes the same speed but requires far less in materials and space for storage.
Depends on whether being able to hover is a big part of the attraction.
Personally, I think hovering is overrated, but that's me. Hovering in helicoptors IS neat, but it's not effortless and requires careful attention and effort on the part of the pilot. Hovering also carries risks level flight does not. Blimp hovering is, of course, different than that done by helicoptors.
Mostly, it's consumer resistance. Raditation sterialization is used for spices, medical devices, and the US mail (the anthrax scare started that). There are irradiated foodstuffs available in the US, but they are not commonly sold due to lack of demand and consumer fear/resistance.
Now that likely changes over generations.

People accepted household microwaves pretty well not because most are good at understanding any type of radiation but since the faster-cooking convenience motivated them to put aside their potential objections. Convenient irradiated milk that doesn't take up refrigerator space until use has the potential. As more people hear of other people drinking it unharmed, gradually it may become accepted in more countries.
Agreed. I remember the time before household microwaves were common and initialy there WAS considerable fear and resistance. The technology was so damn useful, though, that people did adopt it and as time went on there was a much more realistic assessment of risks vs. rewards.

I would like to see irradiation as sterilization become much more acceptable to people.

As for what I'd like to see for future tech that's all cool and sci-fi... well, I am somewhat hindered because I am living in that future. When I was a kid I dreamed of personal computers... now I own three - two desktop units and a "pocket PC" Jornada. Hell, when I was a kid I dreamed of seeing movies whenever the hell I wanted instead of waiting for them to show up late at night on TV (and even then I had to watch in black and white!) and now I have a collection of movies I can watch any time I want to. My cellphone is pretty damn close to the Star Trek communicators from the old series. Seriously, there is so much shit that didn't exist when I was 10 or 15 that I use every day it's not funny.

However, it IS an interesting exercise and I will certainly give it some thought.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Again, I feel obligated to point out that it's not a choice between "suburban nation" and "high-rise tenements". Before the widespread advent of tract housing designed around the automobile, usually only the very poor lived in tenements; most of the middle class lived in either closely-packed stand-alone houses, or "row houses" and the like (hence why I brought up New Urbanism as an example). The rich tended to live on their own streets in stand-alone mansions, but that's a guarantee in any place where money determines your quality of housing.

You could easily see something like that happening again, if widespread automobile use became prohibitive for a number of reasons.
Yeah I'm living in apartment right now and we're looking at row-houses amongst other things. I also saw these nice high rises (well, only 7 floors) that are like 10km from the city core and there's lots of nature and space around, like three of them standing there out in a very lightly populated area. That was pretty awesome.

But living as I do now, qite close to the city core, with all the people, noises and lights. Can't move away fast enough.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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As for technological progress, I really hope medical tech has made large breakthroughs by then. I want to see cloned or artificial limbs. I'd like eye replacements and effective anti aging and cancer treatments to be the norm.

I'm imagening the scandinavian life to be one of the same style of life as we got now, I don't think the population will concentrate in a few cities only. I'm imagening the small towns turning hitech with electric cars fueled by plenty of nuclear power and lots of work being done remotely so they don't have to take the car to work.

EDIT: Infact I forsee the coming of peak oil and implosion of the 3rd world to return manufacturing and farming jobs. And food production will probably be localized. I don't see it as unlikely that people can live as hi-tech farmers, growing tomatoes in greenhouses and selling them to local supermarkets. Rather than growing them in say Spain and flying them in before they rot.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by TheLostVikings »

Ryan Thunder wrote: I have not. I'm in school. I've been down town and I hate it down there. What's it to you?
So because your local town happens to be a crappy place this must also hold true for every apartment building? :banghead:
Ryan Thunder wrote: Again, it's called birth control. It works so well for Germany and Japan that they have negative population growth rates.
FYI Japans lack of kids doesn't really have anything whatsoever to do with prevention, better find a different example.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Ryan Thunder »

TheLostVikings wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote: I have not. I'm in school. I've been down town and I hate it down there. What's it to you?
So because your local town happens to be a crappy place this must also hold true for every apartment building? :banghead:
The vast majority of those that I've seen have been irredeemable shitholes, yes, and I've seen plenty. Granted, there are one or two nice ones down town that I don't think I'd mind living in, but they're an extreme minority. That, and they're prohibitively expensive. (Sure, a house down there would cost more, but that doesn't change that I don't expect I'll ever be able to pay for either.)
Ryan Thunder wrote: Again, it's called birth control. It works so well for Germany and Japan that they have negative population growth rates.
FYI Japans lack of kids doesn't really have anything whatsoever to do with prevention, better find a different example.[/quote]
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Samuel »

I live in a non shit-hole apartment.

As for what Japan is doing... I believe the insane housing prices force generations to live together and the population growth rate is negative because women aren't marrying and having kids, but instead concentrating on their careers.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Ryan Thunder wrote: The vast majority of those that I've seen have been irredeemable shitholes, yes, and I've seen plenty. Granted, there are one or two nice ones down town that I don't think I'd mind living in, but they're an extreme minority. That, and they're prohibitively expensive. (Sure, a house down there would cost more, but that doesn't change that I don't expect I'll ever be able to pay for either.)
Then either your city is an exception to the rule, or you have a very bizarre definition as to what constitutes an "irredeemable shithole".
Whatever they're doing, it works. Point stands; it can be done.
Japan's negative population growth was not intentional. I recall reading articles where they were actually concerned about this problem and were looking into ways to reverse it, even going so far as to consider making it easier for foreigners to gain citizenship/residency. Considering Japan's xenophobic nature I'm rather surprised that option would even be suggested and gives a pretty good indication that running out of a viable workforce is not desirable, even if they're currently suffering from overpopulation.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Sky Captain »

Well, apparently one French guy has already built and flown a human powered blimp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F6pQ07r ... re=channel

However even only 10 km/h wind can cause problems making it suitable for only perfectly calm days. Obviously if you have engine more powerful than human you could fly in a bit higher winds, but still 15 - 20 km/h wind seems to be the maximum for such a small airship.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Samuel »

General Zod wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote: The vast majority of those that I've seen have been irredeemable shitholes, yes, and I've seen plenty. Granted, there are one or two nice ones down town that I don't think I'd mind living in, but they're an extreme minority. That, and they're prohibitively expensive. (Sure, a house down there would cost more, but that doesn't change that I don't expect I'll ever be able to pay for either.)
Then either your city is an exception to the rule, or you have a very bizarre definition as to what constitutes an "irredeemable shithole".
Whatever they're doing, it works. Point stands; it can be done.
Japan's negative population growth was not intentional. I recall reading articles where they were actually concerned about this problem and were looking into ways to reverse it, even going so far as to consider making it easier for foreigners to gain citizenship/residency. Considering Japan's xenophobic nature I'm rather surprised that option would even be suggested and gives a pretty good indication that running out of a viable workforce is not desirable, even if they're currently suffering from overpopulation.
It has gotten so bad they have to import prostitutes. Additionally they are looking into robotics because the slump in population means they have a large number of old people and not so many to care for them. Those cute robots aren't for show!
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Tech I'd like to see:
A truly useful prosthetic hand. Something adroit enough to permit the user to play simple tunes on a piano, with at least some feedback to allow perception of temperature, pressure, and so forth. It would also have to be lightweight, durable, and with reasonable power requirements so you don't have to change/recharge the batteries constantly.

Better organ replacement - I don't care if it is improved post-transplant medicine (right now the biggest problem is the side effects of the medication used for anti-rejection therapy) or improved replacements. This would also allow for lower risk face transplants and restoration of major defects.

An artificial eye at least as good as today's cochlear implants. Even better would be vastly improved sensory replacements.

An "electonic companion" - consider it an improved/combined cellphone, PDA, laptop computer, music/video player, camera, and whatever else you want to throw in. It would fold up even smaller than today's "notebook" computers, with the ability to unfold into a large screen and utilize multiple imput and output devices and modes. So you could imput with keyboard, pen, USB-equivalent, wireless, voice, etc. and output with video, wireless, plug in to printer, etc.

Print on demand books and other such things - yes, I do believe people will continue to read/use printed materials. These media will change, just as they have changed over thousands of years, but they will continue to exist.

More use of small, off-grid energy. Whether this takes the form of self-heating meals (now available at your local truck stop) or solar power for small tools/appliances or wind driven generators for houses we'll see more of them. Battery technology will also advance and will assit in this trend.

Better energy efficiency: whether this is better insulated homes, more use of LED's for lighting, more efficient appliances, or what have you, we'll also see more of it. Why? Because efficient is, in the long run, cheaper. Eventually, people figure this out.

Genetically engineered crops: these are going to become much more common. Why? They're so damn useful. Crops that require less water, less pesticides, and less fertilizer make overwhelming economic sense. Eventually, people will lose their fear of "frankenfood" just as they lost their fear of microwave ovens.

An even greater diversity of food in everyone's diet. Seriously, 25 years ago there were a lot of things we weren't eating that are pretty common now. How in the hell did sushi - raw fish - become trendy in the US? (Yes, I'm aware sushi is not just raw fish). I'm told that Europe is also diversifying its diet. Asia - well, a lot of the cultures there were already eating anything that didn't move faster than the natives. The point is, even markets outside of urban areas offer non-local, exotic, and unusual foods. While some of these are junk, others are actually vegetables, fruits, grains, and meats not available a generation or so ago. In addition to hybrids and totally new items, new varieties of old favorities are also appearing. Granted, some of this depends upon cheap transportation of foodstuffs, which may become problematic, but some "exotic" foods are now being grown locally in areas they weren't before - when I went shopping for seeds for my garden this year my local store not only had the tradition favorites grown for the last century in the area, they also had seed categories of "Asia" (with China and Thai sub-categories), "Mexico", and "Medditeranean". They weren't offered even 10 years ago around here. If you wanted those exotics you had to order them through the mail. There were also heirloom and new hybrids/varieties available. I remember when all beets were red. This year I could buy seeds for 3 varieties of red, a white, a yellow, and a two-toned beet. That's in addition to commercial operations now raising animals from other continents - within a day's drive of where I live are ranchs that raise ostriches and emus, neither of which are native to this hemisphere. The downside, is, of course, potential depletion of animal and plants stocks, and reduction of genetic diversity, some of which is countered by those folks growing heirloom varieties, and through enforced management of wild stock. These are not insurmountable problems, but they are still significant obstacles.

I suppose some of this may appear a bit conservative, but we're only talking about 50 years, and I think these things are actually realistic within that time frame. I've no doubt we'll get other surprises, too.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Samuel wrote:It has gotten so bad they have to import prostitutes. Additionally they are looking into robotics because the slump in population means they have a large number of old people and not so many to care for them. Those cute robots aren't for show!
So in other words, its so possible, that we can go overboard and have problems because of it. Which would seem to indicate, yet again that we can reduce our population to sustainable levels, which in turn means we can feasibly live in real houses. 8)

Right?
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Ryan Thunder wrote: So in other words, its so possible, that we can go overboard and have problems because of it. Which would seem to indicate, yet again that we can reduce our population to sustainable levels, which in turn means we can feasibly live in real houses. 8)

Right?
And in the meantime completely fuck over the possibility of having a viable public transportation network and watch as the average person winds up spending half their monthly income in gas costs. Because the more spread apart people are, the more difficult it is to have nice things like public transit. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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General Zod wrote:And in the meantime completely fuck over the possibility of having a viable public transportation network and watch as the average person winds up spending half their monthly income in gas costs. Because the more spread apart people are, the more difficult it is to have nice things like public transit. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
They better be fucking huge apartments compared to what I'm familiar with, then.

I like having room to, you know, move around without people looking at me funny because I'm waving my weights around instead of just lifting them.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Ryan Thunder wrote: They better be fucking huge apartments compared to what I'm familiar with, then.
Unless you've never been in anything bigger than a studio apartment, I have to question where you're getting your information from. My current apartment is around 615 sq feet not counting the balcony and it's more than enough for myself. But hey, turns out you just might have to adjust your style of living to fit into an apartment. Apparently being able to adapt to new environments is an essential life skill, I hear.
I like having room to, you know, move around without people looking at me funny because I'm waving my weights around instead of just lifting them.
There's so much bald faced ignorance in this statement I'm just going to pretend you didn't post this.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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Broomstick wrote:Tech I'd like to see:
A truly useful prosthetic hand. Something adroit enough to permit the user to play simple tunes on a piano, with at least some feedback to allow perception of temperature, pressure, and so forth. It would also have to be lightweight, durable, and with reasonable power requirements so you don't have to change/recharge the batteries constantly.
I can see a lot of the maneuverability and dexterity being available within the next 20 years, although I'm not so sure about the sense of feeling, temperature, and the like. They're already at the point where they can wire prosthetic arms to the human nerve system for control.
Better organ replacement - I don't care if it is improved post-transplant medicine (right now the biggest problem is the side effects of the medication used for anti-rejection therapy) or improved replacements. This would also allow for lower risk face transplants and restoration of major defects.
The ideal, I imagine, would be to re-grow duplicates of people's own organs and possibly limbs. That way, you hopefully wouldn't have to take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of your life, as you usually do with the current transplants.
An artificial eye at least as good as today's cochlear implants. Even better would be vastly improved sensory replacements.
A full-on synthetic eye that can be wired to the brain would certainly be nice. We humans are so visual dependent - it would be nice to banish blindness from the human race.
An "electonic companion" - consider it an improved/combined cellphone, PDA, laptop computer, music/video player, camera, and whatever else you want to throw in. It would fold up even smaller than today's "notebook" computers, with the ability to unfold into a large screen and utilize multiple imput and output devices and modes. So you could imput with keyboard, pen, USB-equivalent, wireless, voice, etc. and output with video, wireless, plug in to printer, etc.
I can see this.
Print on demand books and other such things - yes, I do believe people will continue to read/use printed materials. These media will change, just as they have changed over thousands of years, but they will continue to exist.
They'll probably exist, but I'm think that more likely, you'll see some type of blur between paper and screens - like a re-writable blank screen that you can write on with a stylus, as well as transmit and show text on. They'd hopefully be pretty robust and cheap, something that you can fold up and stick into your pocket without damage.
More use of small, off-grid energy. Whether this takes the form of self-heating meals (now available at your local truck stop) or solar power for small tools/appliances or wind driven generators for houses we'll see more of them. Battery technology will also advance and will assit in this trend.
Batteries will help (hopefully), but I actually think this is unlikely, unless Solar technology takes a massive leap forward in technology and cost. If anything, the future post-peak world is going to be even more dependent on a constant, gigantic supply of electrical power, and that means things like nukes and so forth.
Better energy efficiency: whether this is better insulated homes, more use of LED's for lighting, more efficient appliances, or what have you, we'll also see more of it. Why? Because efficient is, in the long run, cheaper. Eventually, people figure this out.
We hope.
Genetically engineered crops: these are going to become much more common. Why? They're so damn useful. Crops that require less water, less pesticides, and less fertilizer make overwhelming economic sense. Eventually, people will lose their fear of "frankenfood" just as they lost their fear of microwave ovens.
It really depends on how tight food margins are in the future. If they are tight and/or tighter, or if genetic engineering is ubiquitous, then yes, this is probably possible. Of course, a rough period in which declining oil supplies force people to be less picky in purchasing their produce would help.
An even greater diversity of food in everyone's diet. Seriously, 25 years ago there were a lot of things we weren't eating that are pretty common now. How in the hell did sushi - raw fish - become trendy in the US? (Yes, I'm aware sushi is not just raw fish). I'm told that Europe is also diversifying its diet. Asia - well, a lot of the cultures there were already eating anything that didn't move faster than the natives. The point is, even markets outside of urban areas offer non-local, exotic, and unusual foods. While some of these are junk, others are actually vegetables, fruits, grains, and meats not available a generation or so ago. In addition to hybrids and totally new items, new varieties of old favorities are also appearing. Granted, some of this depends upon cheap transportation of foodstuffs, which may become problematic, but some "exotic" foods are now being grown locally in areas they weren't before - when I went shopping for seeds for my garden this year my local store not only had the tradition favorites grown for the last century in the area, they also had seed categories of "Asia" (with China and Thai sub-categories), "Mexico", and "Medditeranean". They weren't offered even 10 years ago around here. If you wanted those exotics you had to order them through the mail. There were also heirloom and new hybrids/varieties available. I remember when all beets were red. This year I could buy seeds for 3 varieties of red, a white, a yellow, and a two-toned beet. That's in addition to commercial operations now raising animals from other continents - within a day's drive of where I live are ranchs that raise ostriches and emus, neither of which are native to this hemisphere. The downside, is, of course, potential depletion of animal and plants stocks, and reduction of genetic diversity, some of which is countered by those folks growing heirloom varieties, and through enforced management of wild stock. These are not insurmountable problems, but they are still significant obstacles.
I think they'll go beyond this and create entirely artificial foods with arbitrary taste and texture. We can already capture the smell and frequently the chemical taste of certain foods, so it's not a stretch for fifty years.

That would probably help dieting, by the way - you could just purchase arbitrarily good-tasting food with nutrient injections and the like.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by RedImperator »

I disagree with the prediction about most everyone getting crammed into high-rise apartments, if nothing else because with apartment buildings, you hit a point of diminishing returns where your economy-of-scale savings are lost to overloaded local infrastructure. If you predict a return to an early-20th century urban planning model, then what you would be more likely to see are rowhouses or very small standalone plots concentrated into walkable neighborhoods, alongside low and mid-rise apartment buildings, many of them in large towns and small cities. In fact, post-peak, it might be that very large cities like New York simply cannot import and distribute enough of life's necessities to remain at their present sizes (at least not without a catastrophic decline in standard of living for the people living there).

But suburbia as we know it is doomed. That much I'm convinced of. One way or another, the American population is going to contract. It might be an orderly shift into revitalized urban areas and New Urbanist developments, or it might be a flood of refugees into Hoovervilles in stadium parking lots, but it's going to happen.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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I've toyed with the idea of a world-spanning arcology, actually built -into- artificial hills and so on, so as to take up a surprising little amount of actual footprint for the amount of land and sea area humanity covers. The economic cost, in modern terms, would be astronomical, but then so would productive output.

I never put that happening within fifty years though, though there may be a few 'primitive' arcologies, the basic idea is that it would be superior to have them basically be cliffs - one side, the cliff face, is exposed to the sun (at least in colder climes) while the roof / other slope is covered in grass/forest. Humanity then covers a much larger area of Earth's surface than its ecological footprint would suggest.

Another idea was channels into the Salton Sea, Death Valley, and other lower-than-sea-level parts around the globe, not for power, but rather to increase rainfall in areas east of them.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by Broomstick »

Guardsman Bass wrote:I can see a lot of the maneuverability and dexterity being available within the next 20 years, although I'm not so sure about the sense of feeling, temperature, and the like. They're already at the point where they can wire prosthetic arms to the human nerve system for control.
That is not "wired" in the sense of having a direct connection between prosthetic and nervous system, it's using technology to pick up the signaling in the remains of the nerves left after amputation. I expect that tech will continue to improve, and will also have application in thought-controlled devices for both the disabled and able-bodied.
An artificial eye at least as good as today's cochlear implants. Even better would be vastly improved sensory replacements.
A full-on synthetic eye that can be wired to the brain would certainly be nice. We humans are so visual dependent - it would be nice to banish blindness from the human race.
I don't care how good an artificial eye is - it will NOT eliminate all blindness. An artificial eye will not fix damage to the visual cortex. Nor will it correct blindness in those who grew up without sight and whose brains have reconfigured the visual cortex for other tasks.
Print on demand books and other such things - yes, I do believe people will continue to read/use printed materials. These media will change, just as they have changed over thousands of years, but they will continue to exist.
They'll probably exist, but I'm think that more likely, you'll see some type of blur between paper and screens - like a re-writable blank screen that you can write on with a stylus, as well as transmit and show text on. They'd hopefully be pretty robust and cheap, something that you can fold up and stick into your pocket without damage.
Nope, I really do believe we'll continue to have books and other such things printed on paper. They'll be less common, but we'll still have them. Although yes, for many applications your "electric paper" type screens will replace much of today's printed material.
More use of small, off-grid energy. Whether this takes the form of self-heating meals (now available at your local truck stop) or solar power for small tools/appliances or wind driven generators for houses we'll see more of them. Battery technology will also advance and will assit in this trend.
Batteries will help (hopefully), but I actually think this is unlikely, unless Solar technology takes a massive leap forward in technology and cost. If anything, the future post-peak world is going to be even more dependent on a constant, gigantic supply of electrical power, and that means things like nukes and so forth.
Uh, yeah, right - you know, when I was a kid, even after we got calculators they still ate lots and lots o' batteries - solar cell calculators didn't exist because calculators required too much energy, and the little solar cells were too expensive/not powerful enough. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about - very small scale application of solar. Such as the solar-powered driveway and landscape lights available at my local stores, which didn't exist 20 years ago. Or don't you think calculators and driveway lights come under "small tools and appliances"? Particuarly with advances in LED lighting, solar lighting will be become more practical for some applications.
I think they'll go beyond this and create entirely artificial foods with arbitrary taste and texture. We can already capture the smell and frequently the chemical taste of certain foods, so it's not a stretch for fifty years.

That would probably help dieting, by the way - you could just purchase arbitrarily good-tasting food with nutrient injections and the like.
Well, yes, there will be a market for that, but there will ALSO still be a market for real food.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

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You know, the technology of the future may already be here in some cases, much like the transistor and velcro existed long before the space program utilized them.

In the past couple of days I have seen a commercial for an Oreck vacuum cleaner model that uses UV light to kill germs, as well as a print add for a "light wand" that you hold over an item to kill germs with UV light. Use of UV technology for santiation was mentioned upthread as a 2059 item, but apparently it's already here, if not widely disseminated (yet)

As for "synthetic" food on demand, this isn't quite the same as generating anything you want from amorphous goo, or a Star Trek replicator, but MooBella makes custom servings of ice cream on the spot. That is, it's not a dispenser of ice cream, it actually makes your order from scratch on the spot.
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Re: How do you envision technology 50 years from now?

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Our company sells UV based water cleaning systems for pools and hot tubs amongst many other things. Pretty simple design, it's an stainless steel pipe with UV light in the center, just flow water through it.
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