How do you deal with your fear of death?

[Alerik the Fortunate]

I think it was Mark Twain who said something to the effect that "I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me one bit; I'll be dead for billions of years after I die and it won't bother me either."

I find it helps a bit. Even though I might object to nonexistence now, knowing that I won't object to it afterwards does make it a little easier. Still, I'd rather hang around for a while. There are all sorts of questions I'd like to have an answer to before I die that aren't likely to be settled soon. What is a truly civilized society like and will we ever achieve it? Are there any alien civilizations, and if so, how will we coexist with them? Will interstellar travel ever be practical, or any sort of shortcut around the lightspeed barrier be possible? What is the end state of the universe most likely to be?

Of course one could say I would just have to be satisfied with the best educated guesses at any particular times, but I'd like to see some more definitive answers. True, the answers might be depressing, but if the future of reality becomes inevitably unbearably bad, I could just wipe my memory of the unpleasant parts and off myself knowing that I've lived the best life possible, so I doubt there's necessarily much to lose. Plus if I knew I could potentially last for many centuries I could take up long term hobbies like Sequoia topiaries or molecular artwork or some other such obsessive thing which I might want to try now, but wouldn't bother with knowing that I'd never see it get anywhere before I died.

Still, it boils down to having things to do now and in the near future that won't really be affected by the availability or scarcity of extreme longevity options. Focusing on the now is an important skill that would matter even if you were immortal, since an eternity of not paying attention to your own life is scarcely better than a few decades of worrying about it.

[Justforfun000]

I'm with the ones who despise the concept of non-existence. I think it's highly unfair to be born into this world and develop a love of living and all that comes with it only to discover that the most rational expectation is the complete and utter end of your personality and being just as if it never existed. No restarts, no period of rest and then reanimation, no reincarnation or new form of existing, just....annihilation.

How anyone can truly not be bothered by that is beyond me. I guess I just love living too much. I have no desire for my consciousness to ever fade.

[open_sketchbook]

As far as I'm concerned, somewhere out there in myriad of other universes that make up the full and endless scope of creation, I will be born an infinite number of times as I die an infinite number of times, across an infinite number of planes. I'll never be forgotten because somewhere, I'll always be. I'm down with that.

[Singular Intellect]

I'm with the ones who despise the concept of non-existence. I think it's highly unfair to be born into this world and develop a love of living and all that comes with it only to discover that the most rational expectation is the complete and utter end of your personality and being just as if it never existed. No restarts, no period of rest and then reanimation, no reincarnation or new form of existing, just....annihilation.

How anyone can truly not be bothered by that is beyond me. I guess I just love living too much. I have no desire for my consciousness to ever fade.

You're not alone; that's why religion is so successful. It capitilizes upon this common fear and extorts massive amounts of resources from it's followers with the promise of eternal life after you 'die'. The delusion takes hold of the mind until it can be next to impossible to be rid of.

[Kanastrous]

Applying concepts like "fair" to the physical universe and its processes doesn't help in ridding one's self of the delusion, either.

[Broomstick]

I'm with the ones who despise the concept of non-existence. I think it's highly unfair to be born into this world and develop a love of living and all that comes with it only to discover that the most rational expectation is the complete and utter end of your personality and being just as if it never existed. No restarts, no period of rest and then reanimation, no reincarnation or new form of existing, just....annihilation.

How anyone can truly not be bothered by that is beyond me. I guess I just love living too much. I have no desire for my consciousness to ever fade.

You're not alone; that's why religion is so successful. It capitilizes upon this common fear and extorts massive amounts of resources from it's followers with the promise of eternal life after you 'die'. The delusion takes hold of the mind until it can be next to impossible to be rid of.

This is an illustration of what I keep saying - religion serves emotional needs that logic does not. I realize atheists might prefer folks to avoid after-life beliefs, but if it keeps people functional and they are otherwise not too irrational I say let it be.

[Singular Intellect]

You're not alone; that's why religion is so successful. It capitilizes upon this common fear and extorts massive amounts of resources from it's followers with the promise of eternal life after you 'die'. The delusion takes hold of the mind until it can be next to impossible to be rid of.

This is an illustration of what I keep saying - religion serves emotional needs that logic does not. I realize atheists might prefer folks to avoid after-life beliefs, but if it keeps people functional and they are otherwise not too irrational I say let it be.

That might sound nice initially, except religion doesn't confine itself to the belief in a afterlife, nor does it's absolutely massive drain on society's resources and mentality help anyone (quite the opposite as we all know).

The core issue there is that when you permit one stupid idea because people like it, you have essentially laid the foundation for any stupid idea that makes people feel better to flourish.

[Broomstick]

On the other hand, depriving people of comfort during the grieving process doesn't do shit, either. Seriously, you leapt from "comfort in grief" to all the evils of religion in one fell swoop. Slippery slope, anyone? The fact that religion is responsible for some of the world's evils does not mean it is impossible for it to serve some good at some times.

[Kanastrous]

There's an algebra concerning the amount of feel-good offered by religions, versus the degree of damage they do.

I suspect that the scope of the damage outweighs the value of the feel-good.

YMMV.

[Singular Intellect]

On the other hand, depriving people of comfort during the grieving process doesn't do shit, either.

What, so us atheists have no capacity for comfort or comforting when one of our loved ones die?

Seriously, you leapt from "comfort in grief" to all the evils of religion in one fell swoop. Slippery slope, anyone? The fact that religion is responsible for some of the world's evils does not mean it is impossible for it to serve some good at some times.

The only thing religion provides people is a pack of lies in exchange for a parasitic existence and harming the rational elements of a society.

Aside from lies, what can religion contribute to a society that a secular one couldn't provide for itself?

[Stark]

Strangely, many people don't have these emotional needs at all. I'm not comforted by ridiculous ideas about the afterlife at all. Logic (or rationalism) doesn't fill these needs; it removes them. There is no life after death, and that isn't a bad thing unless you thought there was and only just found out. People die and they're gone forever; lying to make people feel better is actually quite hideous.

Then again people wanting to live forever because they can't deal with the idea that everything ends is also hideous, but in a hilarious way.

[Rye]

Back when I was horribly, suicidally depressed, afterlife fantasies preoccupied my mind. "Comforting" the natural fear of dying cuts both ways too. The truth; that life was vanishingly small in the grand scale of things and the people in my life would suffer from my absence/selfish end was the thing that brought me back from the brink. The idea that you might go somewhere and be at peace and happy for eternity appeals to horribly depressed people.

[Singular Intellect]

The argument that religious lies comfort people for, say, dying ones is just a joke.

If they really believe their loved ones are going to some super awesome eternal existence, what are they grieving about? They should be saying shit like "Lucky bastard, he's having a great time in paradise right now and I still have to wait a few decades. I can hardly wait for my turn; hope he says hello to Uncle Bob for me like I asked him to."

[Kanastrous]

People can still mourn separation, even when they believe the person from whom they're separated has "gone to a better place."

[Stark]

From what I've seen of grief, people know they're full of shit. Even people I considered very devout respond in a 'gone forever' way, even though their stupid 'comforting' beliefs should have them accepting that it's really only a few years until they'll meet up and chill together again. Has anyone really seen people respond the way you'd expect if they ACTUALLY believed in an afterlife? It seems that this stuff is just a series of culturally-acceptable platitudes to say to people to snap them out of it - mortuary pillow talk. 'Oh it's okay they're in a better place' except NOBODY ACTS LIKE THAT'S TRUE. I think it's doublethink.

[Kanastrous]

The phrase mortuary pillow talk is one of the most brilliant things I have yet seen on SDNet.

Damn!

[Singular Intellect]

People can still mourn separation, even when they believe the person from whom they're separated has "gone to a better place."

Kind of makes you wonder just how great this 'better place' is if you're not even allowed to keep in touch with loved ones, doesn't it?

However, it seems I'm beginning to sidetrack the thread, so I'll leave issue on that note.

[Broomstick]

On the other hand, depriving people of comfort during the grieving process doesn't do shit, either.

What, so us atheists have no capacity for comfort or comforting when one of our loved ones die?

I'm not talking about what works FOR YOU - I'm talking about what works for other people.

I had quite an argument with more than one person about my mom getting "right with God" before her death. Fact is, mom had been an atheist for decades. Talk about "you're going to a better place" and the like made her furious. For her, though, life had become such a burden that oblivion was preferable.

Personally, I tend to agree with her assessment. I may not agree with her stance on the non-existence of God, but then I'm quite willing to concede that I may wrong on the subject. As it happens, the faith to which I belong has little to say about the afterlife, and no particular provision for atheists who may well evaporate into nothingness. The only resurrection I am guaranteed is the recycling of my bits into other living creatures by the process of decay and natural growth. But that is neither here nor there. On the other hand, some of the relatives who are quite a bit more religious are distressed. I don't have a problem saying that IF there is a truly loving and forgiving God he(she/it) may well forgive mom for her doubts and disbeliefs. If this prevents a hysterical outburst in public I can live with it. The moment of grief is NOT the time to launch into deprogramming.

Seriously, you leapt from "comfort in grief" to all the evils of religion in one fell swoop. Slippery slope, anyone? The fact that religion is responsible for some of the world's evils does not mean it is impossible for it to serve some good at some times.

The only thing religion provides people is a pack of lies in exchange for a parasitic existence and harming the rational elements of a society.

Aside from lies, what can religion contribute to a society that a secular one couldn't provide for itself?

Excuses to party? (Naw... humans can always find an excuse to party...)

Look, if religion doesn't ring your bell I'm totally OK with that. The world might well be a better place with more atheists in it. Some people find religion useful in their lives. As long as it doesn't get too wacky I can accept that. Maybe you can't. Whatever.

[Broomstick]

The argument that religious lies comfort people for, say, dying ones is just a joke.

If they really believe their loved ones are going to some super awesome eternal existence, what are they grieving about? They should be saying shit like "Lucky bastard, he's having a great time in paradise right now and I still have to wait a few decades. I can hardly wait for my turn; hope he says hello to Uncle Bob for me like I asked him to."

The flaw in your premise is the notion that all religions (or any) somehow guarantee bliss after death. They don't. I could argue that the vast majority of religions in human history make no promises of paradise (Christianity doing so was one of its big selling points, in fact). Even for many Christians, there's no guarantee there, either. It's not so much the existence of afterlife bliss, but there is an afterlife at all that people find comforting. For some reason.

People grieving are NOT rational! While there may be exceptions, MOST folks are not operating at peak mental efficiency. If a little denial/religion helps them get through the initial phase of grief I am, as I said, OK with that. Belief to the point that people are committing suicide to get into heaven, or are mourning for the rest of their life, is excessive and damaging but that's not the case for most people, even those with religion.

And some religions actually limit grief. For example, in Judaism while there is a traditional week of grieving after that you are obligated to get up off your ass and get on with your life. You also aren't supposed to visit the grave for a year after burial, again to keep you connected with life and living. It provides an outlet for grief AND limits it at the same time.

[General Zod]

The argument that religious lies comfort people for, say, dying ones is just a joke.

If they really believe their loved ones are going to some super awesome eternal existence, what are they grieving about? They should be saying shit like "Lucky bastard, he's having a great time in paradise right now and I still have to wait a few decades. I can hardly wait for my turn; hope he says hello to Uncle Bob for me like I asked him to."

The flaw in your premise is the notion that all religions (or any) somehow guarantee bliss after death. They don't. I could argue that the vast majority of religions in human history make no promises of paradise (Christianity doing so was one of its big selling points, in fact). Even for many Christians, there's no guarantee there, either. It's not so much the existence of afterlife bliss, but there is an afterlife at all that people find comforting. For some reason.

I don't see it as a flaw in the premise at all. How many believers actually think they're going to wind up going someplace other than heaven? Modern Christianity makes it so incredibly accessible, after all. I somehow don't think that most Christians have thought about it beyond "Everyone I hate is going to hell and everyone I like is going to heaven with me."

[Kanastrous]

I *do* know a handful of Christians who seem to strongly suspect they're Hell-bound.

When I ask them why they adhere to a belief system that places them in that position, they usually just shrug.

[Singular Intellect]

On the other hand, depriving people of comfort during the grieving process doesn't do shit, either.

What, so us atheists have no capacity for comfort or comforting when one of our loved ones die?

I'm not talking about what works FOR YOU - I'm talking about what works for other people.

Well, smoking works for some people too, Broomstick. However, there's nothing intelligent about that activity nor does it's existence benefit anyone, except perhaps greedy/delusional/power hungry individuals. Compare that to religion as you will.

Look, if religion doesn't ring your bell I'm totally OK with that. The world might well be a better place with more atheists in it. Some people find religion useful in their lives. As long as it doesn't get too wacky I can accept that. Maybe you can't. Whatever.

Some people find smoking useful in their lives as well, Broomstick. That's hardly an argument for it.

You've obviously realized my point, however. Religion is absolutely useless, and except for those who turn their brains off in order to justify it's existence, it's as productive and positive as smoking.

When confronted with an aspect of society that produces absolutely nothing positive and produces enormous amounts of harm, I will condemn it's existence without hesistation. Just because a group of Joe Blow's get their high from their cigarette/religion doesn't excuse it's existence nor paint it with neutral colours.

I would presume you have no problems with me attacking the concept of smoking with this same level of ferocity; swap the term smoking with religion, and then people get all riled up. Such is it's danger and power over us.

[Broomstick]

The argument that religious lies comfort people for, say, dying ones is just a joke.

If they really believe their loved ones are going to some super awesome eternal existence, what are they grieving about? They should be saying shit like "Lucky bastard, he's having a great time in paradise right now and I still have to wait a few decades. I can hardly wait for my turn; hope he says hello to Uncle Bob for me like I asked him to."

The flaw in your premise is the notion that all religions (or any) somehow guarantee bliss after death. They don't. I could argue that the vast majority of religions in human history make no promises of paradise (Christianity doing so was one of its big selling points, in fact). Even for many Christians, there's no guarantee there, either. It's not so much the existence of afterlife bliss, but there is an afterlife at all that people find comforting. For some reason.

I don't see it as a flaw in the premise at all. How many believers actually think they're going to wind up going someplace other than heaven? Modern Christianity makes it so incredibly accessible, after all. I somehow don't think that most Christians have thought about it beyond "Everyone I hate is going to hell and everyone I like is going to heaven with me."

Excuse me - you have the delusion that everyone is Christian? Seriously?

Half my family is Jewish, which explicitly says it's up to God to decide and you won't know until you're dead. Another slice of my family (outside the atheists) are Pagans, and their beliefs range from "I haven't a clue" to reincarnation to weirdo-whacky shit. Moving along outside my family, Buddists believe in reincarnation unless you get absorbed into something or other instead. Hindus do reincarnation, meaning you come back to this jacked-up place. That's just off the top of my head. "Modern Christianity", despite their PR, are a MINORITY not only in the world today but also in the larger context of history. As examples - the afterlife of the average Norse, Ancient Greek or Babylonian was pretty shitty. In the Old Kingdom of Egypt the peasantry simply ceased to exist at death, only the pharaoh was guaranteed an afterlife. I'm sorry if you're so stupid as to think that "Modern Chrisitianity" is a valid yardstick for religion for all history or all humanity. It isn't. Frankly, some of the afterlives featured in non-Christian and non-monotheist religions are a potent argument for staying alive as long as possible.

[Broomstick]

Well, smoking works for some people too, Broomstick. However, there's nothing intelligent about that activity nor does it's existence benefit anyone, except perhaps greedy/delusional/power hungry individuals. Compare that to religion as you will.

Funny you mention that - I didn't bug my dad to quit smoking the week mom died. Why? Because it would have been pointless. That was the LAST week of his life he'd quit. I didn't see any point in pissing him off under the circumstances. What good would it serve? None. Who would benefit? No one.

Which is sort of my point - death and grief are not the times to pull the rug out from under the religious. While it may give an atheist a certain thrill and joy, it doesn't do jack. Other than generate hate. You want to deprogram religious people, fine, but better timing would make success much more likely. Doing it to grieving people is the flip side of the Jesus freaks shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats.

There is also the problem of forcing people to give up stuff. At a certain point you have to let adults make their own choices, whether you agree with them or not, or whether you consider them good choices or not. If you aren't free to make bad choices you aren't free.

I would presume you have no problems with me attacking the concept of smoking with this same level of ferocity; swap the term smoking with religion, and then people get all riled up. Such is it's danger and power over us.

I have no qualms with people choosing to smoke in private. I do object to them inflicting smoke on other people, but not to adults choosing to have a bad habit if they can keep from inflicting it on others. Please do not attempt to speak for me, I can do so for myself.

[Junghalli]

Then again people wanting to live forever because they can't deal with the idea that everything ends is also hideous, but in a hilarious way.

Eh, I'm OK with ending eventually - I actually would find the idea of a literally endless lifespan quite scary. I just really wish I could be around for longer than the 70-100 years nature will give me.