How do you deal with your fear of death?

[Justforfun000]

Of course the other side of the coin here is that if life IS truly meaningless, and you actually could live forever, there are still issues. First of all. You ain't going to be living on this Earth forever. It's far off from our time, but eventually good old Sol is going to Supernova and it'll be goombye Earth.

Then what? You'd need to find some other domain to exist in. We depend on this earth for every conceivable need at the present and we are in no way technologically advanced enough to fly into the stratosphere with an infinite supply of Air, Food and water, and that's just a START. Gravity issues have to be addressed as it's a well known fact our bodies change significantly when in long periods of different gravities.

[Singular Intellect]

Well, smoking works for some people too, Broomstick. However, there's nothing intelligent about that activity nor does it's existence benefit anyone, except perhaps greedy/delusional/power hungry individuals. Compare that to religion as you will.

Funny you mention that - I didn't bug my dad to quit smoking the week mom died. Why? Because it would have been pointless. That was the LAST week of his life he'd quit. I didn't see any point in pissing him off under the circumstances. What good would it serve? None. Who would benefit? No one.

Which is sort of my point - death and grief are not the times to pull the rug out from under the religious. While it may give an atheist a certain thrill and joy, it doesn't do jack. Other than generate hate. You want to deprogram religious people, fine, but better timing would make success much more likely. Doing it to grieving people is the flip side of the Jesus freaks shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats.

I like how you're strawmanning my position and pretending I'm talking about picketing people's funerals with signs "You're loved is dead, not in any afterlife."

You know damn well I'm talking about general condemnation against religion. I'm 100% for people not smoking as well, but I'm not busting down anyone's home and telling them to stop either. I don't tell either of my parents not to smoke and they both do. Their behavior is restricted to harming themselves, to the point where they smoke outside their own home. They freely acknowledge smoking is a stupid behavior and theirs is dictated by addiction.

There is also the problem of forcing people to give up stuff. At a certain point you have to let adults make their own choices, whether you agree with them or not, or whether you consider them good choices or not. If you aren't free to make bad choices you aren't free.

I agree. And I'm perfectly free to point out bad and stupid choices/beliefs as dictated by logic, and will endeavor to protect others from bad and stupid choices/beliefs as well.

I would presume you have no problems with me attacking the concept of smoking with this same level of ferocity; swap the term smoking with religion, and then people get all riled up. Such is it's danger and power over us.

I have no qualms with people choosing to smoke in private. I do object to them inflicting smoke on other people, but not to adults choosing to have a bad habit if they can keep from inflicting it on others. Please do not attempt to speak for me, I can do so for myself.

If stupid beliefs didn't affect anyone other than the actual believer, I wouldn't have much of a problem with that either. But you and I both know it doesn't work that way. Therefore I will continue to condemn religion for precisely what it is; stupid, useless and harmful.

And no, this doesn't mean I'm picketing people's funerals either. I've never once implied or suggested I would attack anyone's beliefs when they are grieving, and I'm rather irritated you decided to paint me in that light to try and score points against my actual position.

[Junghalli]

Of course the other side of the coin here is that if life IS truly meaningless, and you actually could live forever, there are still issues. First of all. You ain't going to be living on this Earth forever. It's far off from our time, but eventually good old Sol is going to Supernova and it'll be goombye Earth.

Then what? You'd need to find some other domain to exist in. We depend on this earth for every conceivable need at the present and we are in no way technologically advanced enough to fly into the stratosphere with an infinite supply of Air, Food and water, and that's just a START. Gravity issues have to be addressed as it's a well known fact our bodies change significantly when in long periods of different gravities.

I think 5 billion years is plenty of time to start moving our population into space habitats. BTW the sun isn't going supernova, only much more massive stars do that.

[General Zod]

Excuse me - you have the delusion that everyone is Christian? Seriously?

Given that you were talking about Christians in the previous post, and that Christianity is the majority religion in America, I used them as an example. I don't know where the fuck you got the insane idea I was somehow hinting that everyone is somehow Christian. Since it apparently wasn't obvious, my point is that most people aren't exactly going to put much thought into their beliefs beyond "people I hate go to the bad place, people I like don't."

[Marcus Aurelius]

I can't believe nobody has yet quoted this:

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath

Life's a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

And always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the right side of life...
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the bright side of life...
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life...
(I mean - what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life

I quoted just the most relevant parts for this discussion. It is from "Life of Brian" by Monty Python and the lyrics were written by Eric Idle, the King of Cheerful songs with philosophical lyrics, in case someone did not know that.

These are a couple of other quotes I like, which I find useful for letting go of hubris:

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all a part of the same compost pile.

We are not special.
We are not crap or trash either. We just are.
We just are, and what happens just happens.

These are from "Fight Club" by Chuck Palahniuk. The first one is in the movie as well in slightly different words.

Such existential nihilism as the quotes above is of course not anything new, but sometimes popular culture captures the essence of things better than "real" philosophical works. What I especially like about the "Always look on the bright side of life" is that it shows the light side of existential nihilism instead of the doom and gloom many people (incorrectly) associate with it.

[hongi]

I don't fear death. I don't think I've ever really thought about it.

[Akkleptos]

Fear of death? I don't fear death itself, but rather not being able to continue living. This is not a pun: I don't fear what death may (or may not) bring, but rather I'd fear the possibility of not being able to continue experiencing feelings, sensations, the simple pleasures, etc. So, it's not like "Ooh, death scares me" but rather "Man, I'd really hate not seeing another day, experiencing new things, meeting new friends, listening to new music..."

So, as to how I deal with it: I don't. I ask anyone: do you fear going to sleep? Well, dying is essentially the same thing, only significant difference being that you never wake up. Of course, there's dreaming, but most people don't remember but the most recent dreams, the ones had just before waking up. So if you're one of those heavy-sleepers, there's no real difference. And if suffering from painful chronic ailments, death -or rather the proximity thereof- has been reported in many cases to bring about a pervasive sense of relief and rest, like being extremely tired and then thinking "Oh, well, it's not really that important" then falling asleep.

On an existential (Sartre-type existential, not beatnick-type) aspect, sometimes you'd feel some anguish or anxiety over not having been able to complete something, or accomplishing great deeds, having become a famous movie star, etc. But I think in the face of death, one could just say... What? Did I want to be remembered for 50 years? Hmmm... What about 100? Make that five centuries... How many people are remembered after that time, out of the whole of mankind? 2000 years? Well, there's that Jesus guy, for example... But who'll remember him after 10,000 years? and after 50,000? Let's make it 250,000 years... That's merely a quarter of a million years. Next to nothing, in a geological scale of time. And 10 million years? Bah... Everything passes, the Earth itself will disappear. The solar system will collapse. The galaxy will degenerate... the whole universe might either poof into cold nothingness or contract again into a superatom. Who the fuck do I think I am to deserve an æternal life™? Why should it matter at all?"

In Psychology, there was a -now outdated- term for things like fear of death (something that is utterly inevitable): neurosis. It is a waste of your time and mental resources to ponder the good and the bad about something you can't do anything about, and -life extension or not- will eventually be your final fate.

[Broomstick]

If stupid beliefs didn't affect anyone other than the actual believer, I wouldn't have much of a problem with that either. But you and I both know it doesn't work that way.

Actually... it is possible for stupid or irrational beliefs to be harmless. The main problem, as I see it, is when a bunch of people sharing a common belief get organized and try to impose it on other people. But that's getting a little off track.

[Singular Intellect]

If stupid beliefs didn't affect anyone other than the actual believer, I wouldn't have much of a problem with that either. But you and I both know it doesn't work that way.

Actually... it is possible for stupid or irrational beliefs to be harmless.

Of course that's possible. It's possible to fall out of an airplane and survive with relatively minor injuries as well. But that is neither common nor considered a good idea.

The main problem, as I see it, is when a bunch of people sharing a common belief get organized and try to impose it on other people. But that's getting a little off track.

We have a label for that, it's called 'religion'. That thing I've been talking about the whole time and I said is stupid, useless and harmful to society.

[Broomstick]

The main problem, as I see it, is when a bunch of people sharing a common belief get organized and try to impose it on other people. But that's getting a little off track.

We have a label for that, it's called 'religion'. That thing I've been talking about the whole time and I said is stupid, useless and harmful to society.

There's organized, institutional religion like the Catholic Church. There's also religion in a sense of a belief in god(s) and afterlife and the like which is not organized and institutionalized, which, for some reason, is often referred to as "spirituality" or "faith". Not everyone who believes in god or an afterlife is a fundy proselytizer. Of course, I realize it's easier for you to just lump everything into one box so you don't have to actually look at distinctions or think about things too much.

It's not uncommon for people who, most of the time, might as well be atheist to fall back on religion during times like a death of a loved one. If you, personally, don't need that I'm fine with that, but I don't see the point in kicking the crutches out from under people who are are grieving. Of course, you'll protest (as you have before) that you wouldn't do that to someone grieving, but this IS a thread about coping with fear of death and like it or not, religious/spiritual beliefs ARE one of the means people use to cope with it. If you want to eliminate religion (which you say you do) then you'll of necessity be taking that away, including during times such as a death in the family.

[Samuel]

There's organized, institutional religion like the Catholic Church. There's also religion in a sense of a belief in god(s) and afterlife and the like which is not organized and institutionalized, which, for some reason, is often referred to as "spirituality" or "faith". Not everyone who believes in god or an afterlife is a fundy proselytizer. Of course, I realize it's easier for you to just lump everything into one box so you don't have to actually look at distinctions or think about things too much.

And what happens when they get together or try to get others to join their group? It starts to morph into a religion! There is no hard and fast boundary which is the problem.

It's not uncommon for people who, most of the time, might as well be atheist to fall back on religion during times like a death of a loved one. If you, personally, don't need that I'm fine with that, but I don't see the point in kicking the crutches out from under people who are are grieving. Of course, you'll protest (as you have before) that you wouldn't do that to someone grieving, but this IS a thread about coping with fear of death and like it or not, religious/spiritual beliefs ARE one of the means people use to cope with it. If you want to eliminate religion (which you say you do) then you'll of necessity be taking that away, including during times such as a death in the family.

The converse is true as well- people lose faith because of the death of a loved one. People dying has a way of shaking things up.

[Justforfun000]

I think 5 billion years is plenty of time to start moving our population into space habitats. BTW the sun isn't going supernova, only much more massive stars do that.

Oops. Shows my great knowledge of Astronomy.

[Kanastrous]

The converse is true as well- people lose faith because of the death of a loved one.

I'm not proud to admit that I have vast reserves of contempt for people who behave this way.

Oh, so as long as *you* were relatively happy, there must be a supervisory deity running the universe; now that something bad has happened that affects *you*, suddenly there must not be a God.

What boundless despicable self-centered-ness and belief-of-convenience.

[TithonusSyndrome]

The converse is true as well- people lose faith because of the death of a loved one.

I'm not proud to admit that I have vast reserves of contempt for people who behave this way.

Oh, so as long as *you* were relatively happy, there must be a supervisory deity running the universe; now that something bad has happened that affects *you*, suddenly there must not be a God.

What boundless despicable self-centered-ness and belief-of-convenience.

I came up with a term for such people - emotheists.

[Singular Intellect]

There's organized, institutional religion like the Catholic Church. There's also religion in a sense of a belief in god(s) and afterlife and the like which is not organized and institutionalized, which, for some reason, is often referred to as "spirituality" or "faith".

And a non organized nature invalidates the attributes of stupid, useless and harmful...how?

Not everyone who believes in god or an afterlife is a fundy proselytizer. Of course, I realize it's easier for you to just lump everything into one box so you don't have to actually look at distinctions or think about things too much.

All irrational beliefs are ultimately stupid and useless, and to at least some degree harmful.

I 'pick on' religion because the beliefs in goblins or fairies hasn't really seriously impacted human rights or safety to my knowledge, so I just stick to calling those stupid and useless while concentrating on the belief systems that are significantly harmful to people and society.

It's not uncommon for people who, most of the time, might as well be atheist to fall back on religion during times like a death of a loved one. If you, personally, don't need that I'm fine with that, but I don't see the point in kicking the crutches out from under people who are are grieving. Of course, you'll protest (as you have before) that you wouldn't do that to someone grieving, but this IS a thread about coping with fear of death and like it or not, religious/spiritual beliefs ARE one of the means people use to cope with it. If you want to eliminate religion (which you say you do) then you'll of necessity be taking that away, including during times such as a death in the family.

I covered this already Broomstick. Yes, stupid beliefs can potentially comfort people. As others mentioned, they can also actively not comfort people, which frankly nullifies your point altogether.

It ultimately comes down to this, Broomstick; even for those who are genuinely comforted by stupid beliefs, they had to be introduced into them initially. Exactly like how a harmful cigarette habit has to be introduced to someone initially, and yet it's quite arguably capable of comforting people once they're addicted. But guess what? Cigarettes are still a stupid, useless and harmful habit. Just like irrational belief systems. And all your arguments in the world about how addicts from one or the other might actually get some high or 'comfort' from them doesn't change that fact.

[Broomstick]

I covered this already Broomstick. Yes, stupid beliefs can potentially comfort people. As others mentioned, they can also actively not comfort people, which frankly nullifies your point altogether.

It ultimately comes down to this, Broomstick; even for those who are genuinely comforted by stupid beliefs, they had to be introduced into them initially. Exactly like how a harmful cigarette habit has to be introduced to someone initially, and yet it's quite arguably capable of comforting people once they're addicted. But guess what? Cigarettes are still a stupid, useless and harmful habit. Just like irrational belief systems. And all your arguments in the world about how addicts from one or the other might actually get some high or 'comfort' from them doesn't change that fact.

Yes, I heard you. Really, there's no point in continuing this, and I will not - you see no use in these beliefs whereas I do. Extend your argument and you're snatching teddy bears and security blankets out of the arms of 4 year olds because they're belief in such items are "stupid" and "harmful".

The fact that death abolishes some peoples' belief in god(s) is irrelevant when at the same time such things will drive others to greater belief. People can go either way, and even cross the line multiple times in a lifetime. That proves nothing, other than that people can and sometimes do change.

Yes, you'd like to make all people perfect people in your sight. Fact is, no one is perfect and few are even very good. If religion can keep an emotional/intellectual cripple upright and functioning I can live with the fact, while at the same time desiring that such beliefs that are actively harmful be discouraged, at times severely. If you feel no need to have such crutches then bully for you, but the majority of the human race hasn't achieved that state, and some never will. Unlike you, I am willing to accept this reality and work within it.

[Samuel]

Yes, I heard you. Really, there's no point in continuing this, and I will not - you see no use in these beliefs whereas I do. Extend your argument and you're snatching teddy bears and security blankets out of the arms of 4 year olds because they're belief in such items are "stupid" and "harmful".

It is part of the growing up process, learning to stand on your own.

[Broomstick]

Right. An awful lot of people never grow up.

[Singular Intellect]

Right. An awful lot of people never grow up.

And a lot of people don't stop smoking. How come you don't endorse that activity even though your exact argument of it 'comforting people' applies?

BTW, I love how you equate my position with snatching teddy bears and favored blankets from four year olds. After all, I expect the same behavior from and treat four year olds like adults, right?

All I've done is dared to call religion stupid, useless and harmful. None of which you refuted other than appealing to it's comfort capability which is akin to trying to justify smoking because some smokers get calmed by the activity.

[Akkleptos]

All I've done is dared to call religion stupid, useless and harmful. None of which you refuted other than appealing to it's comfort capability which is akin to trying to justify smoking because some smokers get calmed by the activity.

Religion is stupid. There's no fruitful argument against that. Nevertheless, some beliefs (as that of a pleasant afterlife) can be comforting to individuals who have a loved one who is about to die or are about to die themselves. It is not the religion per se, but the comforting belief about death embedded in some of them. It would fall under the psychological category of "coping strategies".

In other words, a comforting belief regarding death is not the same as a religion, even when it's part of it. In abstract logic: A is a part of B, but not all of B is A.