General SCA Thread

[The Yosemite Bear]

Purhaps they should remind the Court why siege engines were invented, and how accurate they still are....

a minor barrage

[RogueIce]

Don't get me started on combat archery or siege though. I'll politely say I don't think they should have a peerage of their own since they fall under heavy list (armoured combat).

My friend said that, and in principle I have no problem with that. Though good luck getting Knights to vote in people who do primarily combat archery and/or siege weapons. But then maybe YMMV depending on Kingdom...apparently some are pretty bad about letting in female Knights even if they're better than a bunch of male Knights. I have no idea how you could ever 'fix' that though, at least not without more "open-minded" Knights being elevated.

[Mobiboros]

My friend said that, and in principle I have no problem with that. Though good luck getting Knights to vote in people who do primarily combat archery and/or siege weapons. But then maybe YMMV depending on Kingdom...apparently some are pretty bad about letting in female Knights even if they're better than a bunch of male Knights. I have no idea how you could ever 'fix' that though, at least not without more "open-minded" Knights being elevated.

For CA and Siege... honestly I don't think someone should be knighted for it. That's now what the Order of Chivalry is about. It's stated in the order rules that you must meet specific requirements of skill with "Tournament" weapons and combat archery and siege don't really meet that even if they are armoured combat. You can't even participate in singles combat with CA or siege. Hell, siege isn't even done alone almost ever, it's done in teams.

Female knights are another ball of wax that just blows. The East Kingdom finally just knighted our second female knight in the last two months. Which is just appalling.

[RogueIce]

For CA and Siege... honestly I don't think someone should be knighted for it. That's now what the Order of Chivalry is about. It's stated in the order rules that you must meet specific requirements of skill with "Tournament" weapons and combat archery and siege don't really meet that even if they are armoured combat. You can't even participate in singles combat with CA or siege. Hell, siege isn't even done alone almost ever, it's done in teams.

Hence a new peerage to deal with this? I mean if they fall under heavy combat but aren't eligable for peerage then, well, I do think it should be changed. As was said before, you can be a peer by washing dishes and doing troll a whole lot. So why not somebody who prefers combat archery or siege weapons? Do they not deserve any type of peerage for what they do?

Not trying to start a flamefest, FYI. I mean, I don't care if, say, it is folded under Laurel as was one of the alternative proposals. But I think there should be something for those who do combat archery or siege but aren't heavy weapons fighters, really really dedicated dish washers/troll people/barony and shire officers/etc., or people who make stuff because those things just didn't catch their interest.

Female knights are another ball of wax that just blows. The East Kingdom finally just knighted our second female knight in the last two months. Which is just appalling.

Agreed on that. Trimaris has only one that I know of, though I could just not be well informed enough.

[Rogue 9]

Yeah, speaking of flamefests, I managed to piss off every Pelican in my shire by drawing the analogy of washing the dishes.

Anyway, on to other subjects: How to Defeat the Charging Bull: Don Mateo's excellent class given at the Known World Academy of the Rapier on how to kill people who simply charge you in fencing.

[Mobiboros]

[Hence a new peerage to deal with this? I mean if they fall under heavy combat but aren't eligable for peerage then, well, I do think it should be changed. As was said before, you can be a peer by washing dishes and doing troll a whole lot. So why not somebody who prefers combat archery or siege weapons? Do they not deserve any type of peerage for what they do?

Honestly? No, I don't think they do. I do both rapier and Armoured Combat. I don't think Siege or CA should be considered peer level activities. Neither oen can be done as a singles combat form (Hell siege is done in teams), whereas both armoured combat and rapier are primarily singles combat forms for their current highest level awards. CA and Siege aren't even allowed in all melee battles. Plus some kingdoms may be removing CA (The East suspended it for a while after last pennsic until recently.).

They aren't laurel activities, and if you've taken your bowmanship to that level of historical accuracy that you might be peer level then you likely fall under Archery instead of CA anyway (Which i could see having it's own Peerage possibly).

Adding a Peer level award for CA and Siege is, IMO, silly. It's not something that can be done (by the nature of it being either group activities like siege, or simply not being available in all the scenarios they could fall under anyway) to the level of a peerage.

So, in summation:
Rapier: Yes
Archery: Maybe
Thrown Weapons: Maaaybe if they group it under archery.
Combat Archery: No
Siege: No.

That's my opinion on it.

[Rogue 9]

Service and the arts aren't singles combat forms, and they get peerages. Just sayin'.

[RogueIce]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I suppose. Maybe I'm a little biased in that I'm one of those starting CA who is not at all interested in heavy weapons, so it kinda sucks I can't make peer with it like somebody who does sword and board. But oh well. I imagine it's all up to the Society now anyway.

I am interested, however, in this:

Plus some kingdoms may be removing CA (The East suspended it for a while after last pennsic until recently.).

Why is that? I've heard of some Knight "out west" who apparently loathes archers and always tries to make a big fuss and get them banned. But why are they removing CA? The Mighty Mega Arch Dukes don't like getting shot by arrows ( ) or is there some other reason?

[Rogue 9]

No, I'd say it's that the knights don't like getting shot by arrows. Crossbows were historically banned throughout much of the Middle Ages for precisely that reason.

[RogueIce]

No, I'd say it's that the knights don't like getting shot by arrows. Crossbows were historically banned throughout much of the Middle Ages for precisely that reason.

I guessed as much. But I'm a generous soul and, if nothing else, I'm curious to see if they've come up with a rationale or just "we hate getting shot" or somesuch.

And I really hope it's not some safety mumbo-jumbo, because the way the legal arrows are, only a defect or someone being an intentional asshole is likely to cause any major injury. You know, kind of like how it is with every other form of combat.

Anyway, on another topic, Gulf Wars is coming up. I'll be there. Anyone else?

[Rogue 9]

A lot of people from my area are going (if you see Wednesday Company or Southern Cross, tell them Gilchrist said to say hi), but I can't afford to.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I suppose. Maybe I'm a little biased in that I'm one of those starting CA who is not at all interested in heavy weapons, so it kinda sucks I can't make peer with it like somebody who does sword and board. But oh well. I imagine it's all up to the Society now anyway.

I am interested, however, in this:

Plus some kingdoms may be removing CA (The East suspended it for a while after last pennsic until recently.).

Why is that? I've heard of some Knight "out west" who apparently loathes archers and always tries to make a big fuss and get them banned. But why are they removing CA? The Mighty Mega Arch Dukes don't like getting shot by arrows ( ) or is there some other reason?

That's because two former servicemen shot him from quite a ways away, At leasst that's what Emmerson told me before he went all Alzhiemers and lost his memories, he used to be the Treasurer for the Kingdom of the West out here in CA, and was allegedly one of the withnesses to the "Incident" where the nobility got shot down by the lowly archers.

The alleged incident resulted in a Baron falling into a mud pile in full regalia, because his horse paniced at the incomming fire (even though it was soft tipped)

[Rogue 9]

That's because two former servicemen shot him from quite a ways away, At leasst that's what Emmerson told me before he went all Alzhiemers and lost his memories, he used to be the Treasurer for the Kingdom of the West out here in CA, and was allegedly one of the withnesses to the "Incident" where the nobility got shot down by the lowly archers.

The alleged incident resulted in a Baron falling into a mud pile in full regalia, because his horse paniced at the incomming fire (even though it was soft tipped)

Well too bad for them; Agincourt's period.

[The Yosemite Bear]

we merry band of brothers.

[LadyTevar]

I have to say that Port Oasis here in Æthelmearc always knows how to do a great event.

Even tho it was all held indoors to bad weather, there was a small list for both Fencing and HW, and in a side hall the merchants. Port Oasis also knows how to treat it's Kitchen Help -- help in Kitchen or Serve feast and get free feast (off the leftovers), and first pick of dessert.

Still, I don't know what was more amusing this time around:
First there was the look on the FeastCrat's face when people finished the first course in 20minutes (and I mean serving plates CLEAN in that time), or that the other 2 courses were devoured just as fast. Then, she was shocked again as people came back and personally thanked her and told her how fantastic the food was.

Second was 4 Knights and their squires, including the winner of the Tourney, all in the kitchen washing and drying every pot, pan, dish, serving plate, pitcher and utensil used to make or serve the feast. It was the most Belts I'd seen in that kitchen in years. I believe there were MidRealm and Æthelmearc Knights, and the Tourney Winner was an Atlantian Knight. They literally told the FeastCrat and her Kitchen Scum (me) to get out of the kitchen so they could take care of it.
So she and I sat near the merchants, watching clean dry dishes being stacked for storage on the table, as we ate cheesecake and took sips of all the wonderful alcoholic concoctions various people brought by for us to sample.

[Rogue 9]

This was posted to the shire of Aurea Ripae's list last night, and since it's a very general question, I thought I might as well pass it along.

>>"The candidate must be considered the equal of his or her prospective
>peers with the basic weapons of tournament combat.
>
>>doesn't say rattan anywhere, does it?
>
>
>Nope, it says "weapons of tournament combat". Later, in the section
>under Rapier, it states that (Paraphrasing) "Rapier, having not been
>used in formal tournament combat" in regards to the possibility of
>being used for crown. Thus, rapier is not one of the "weapons of
>tournament combat", and not eligible for consideratio0n for Chivalry.
>
>
>
>>It further says:
>
>>"To bestow the Accolade of Knighthood upon a candidate for the Order
>of Knighthood, as the sole right as Sovereign or acting directly for
>the Sovereign, for only a Knight can create a Knight."
>
>>*That's* what effectively keeps Rapier out of the Chivalry: finding a
>King who is already a Knight who is willing to do it.
>
>Nope. It has already happened. A King raised a Rapier fighter to the
>Chiv. The BOD refused to allow it.

>The story *I've* always heard is that a King of the Midrealm asked
>the Board if he could elevate a rapier fighter to the Chivalry--he
>didn't just do it--and the Board told him no, presumably citing the
>given above.

Is that the truth of the matter? or is there more? Just curious.

[Rogue 9]

Ensuing discussion on the shire list involving the shire historian (a knight with twenty years under that white belt of his) has come to the conclusion that the above is an urban legend, so never mind.

[Mobiboros]

Why is that? I've heard of some Knight "out west" who apparently loathes archers and always tries to make a big fuss and get them banned. But why are they removing CA? The Mighty Mega Arch Dukes don't like getting shot by arrows ( ) or is there some other reason?

Actually it was because of several equipment failures last penssic. Several guys had to be helped off the field when combat archery arrows went through their face-grills and hit them in the face. So a lot of people are now questioning the safety of it.

To Rogue9: No idea if someone ever tried and was denied, but Rapier is definitely cited as not being classed as a "tournament weapon". Which means you can't be made Chiv or crown through rapier combat (SCA Corpora, Section 9, Subsection C. - delineates Rapier combat as non-tournament. Crown tourney and chiv define the rules as must be fought with tournament weapons)

Also, I know Pel and Laurel aren't singles combat oriented. But they are specifcially NOT combat peers (Along with the Order of the Rose). There is already precedence and standards for combat oriented peerage as well as Order of High merit in most kingdoms (In the east theres the Order of Tigers Combatant for heavy list, and Order of the Golden Rapier (White scarves in some other kingdoms)). So why should, for all intents, the standards be lowered to allow CA or Siege as peers?

[RogueIce]

Why is that? I've heard of some Knight "out west" who apparently loathes archers and always tries to make a big fuss and get them banned. But why are they removing CA? The Mighty Mega Arch Dukes don't like getting shot by arrows ( ) or is there some other reason?

Actually it was because of several equipment failures last penssic. Several guys had to be helped off the field when combat archery arrows went through their face-grills and hit them in the face. So a lot of people are now questioning the safety of it.

And one of the Squires in my house damn near got a concussion thanks to some guy hitting too hard, and my friend had to be helped off because minimals really aren't that protective. But I don't think anybody would suggest getting rid of heavy weapons altogether?

Equipment failures suck, but that's life and getting rid of the whole field of combat archery because of that is as silly to me as banning heavy weapons because you get some douchebags who won't call blows, or use excessive force.

EDIT: FYI, I know excessive force types get yanked off the field, and I don't think an archer should be yanked because they had a faulty blunt, or the glue/tape came undone, whatever (so long as it passed a valid inspection, of course). Just so that's clear.

[Mobiboros]

And one of the Squires in my house damn near got a concussion thanks to some guy hitting too hard, and my friend had to be helped off because minimals really aren't that protective. But I don't think anybody would suggest getting rid of heavy weapons altogether?

The difference is when you sign up for heavy list you fully expect a full contact sport. You know the parameters are that you will be hit and that "excessive force" is something you'll likely have to deal with.

The problem with combat archery isn't that the armour failed. The armour met all the requirements for SCA Heavy List Combat. The problem is the /weapons/ failed. The arrows were substandard and wedged between the regulation grills. The problem is that casual inspection of the arrows won't tell you if the materials are substandard enough to fail.

Equipment failures suck, but that's life and getting rid of the whole field of combat archery because of that is as silly to me as banning heavy weapons because you get some douchebags who won't call blows, or use excessive force.

No, it's not the same at all. Combat Archery is a type of Heavy List weapon and they've banned HL weapons before for being dangerous (Flails for example). Plus, as you note, they sometimes do yank excessive force types and people who rhino-hide.

The question isn't "Is the archer dangerous" it's "Is the weapon inherently dangerous" that is beingr eviewed.

However they didn't yank the archer for their equipment failing. What they did was to ammend a few rules onsite (no gleaning arrows), and a reinspection of all arrows. Now, it's just pending review in some places (The East being one of them).

[Rogue 9]

To Rogue9: No idea if someone ever tried and was denied, but Rapier is definitely cited as not being classed as a "tournament weapon". Which means you can't be made Chiv or crown through rapier combat (SCA Corpora, Section 9, Subsection C. - delineates Rapier combat as non-tournament. Crown tourney and chiv define the rules as must be fought with tournament weapons)

Also, I know Pel and Laurel aren't singles combat oriented. But they are specifcially NOT combat peers (Along with the Order of the Rose). There is already precedence and standards for combat oriented peerage as well as Order of High merit in most kingdoms (In the east theres the Order of Tigers Combatant for heavy list, and Order of the Golden Rapier (White scarves in some other kingdoms)). So why should, for all intents, the standards be lowered to allow CA or Siege as peers?

White Scarf, Golden Rapier, and Bronze Ring (in the Midrealm) are not peerage orders. A case can be made that siege and perhaps archery simply aren't widespread enough to merit combat peerages, but the same cannot be said for rapier.

And if rapier isn't a tournament weapon, what the hell was I doing at Christmas Tourney? Besides getting my ass handed to me?

[LadyTevar]

Personally, I think White Scarf et al should BE Peerages... or have a Peerage just for Rapier.

[Rogue 9]

Proposed Corpora change. God, I hate the legal bullshit.

Upon discussions with the Society Chirurgeon and our legal advisors, I
have requested the Board put a proposed change to the Corporate Policies
out for comment.

While the Board and Corporate Officers recognize that a number of people
in the SCA are trained in the use of automated external defibrillator or
AEDs, we are concerned about the continued maintenance and upkeep
obligations for groups that own these devices. If the SCA permits the
groups to own these devices, it would be putting the responsibility on
the group to continue to maintain the device, keeping it in good working
order, and and ensuring its availability at events and practies.

Accordingly, I have asked the Board to put the following out for
comment:

New Draft Corporate Policy (to be added to the corporate policies and
those policies renumbered accordingly):

There shall be no ownership or possession of the Medical Equipment
listed on Appendix A of these Corporate Policies by any branch or
recognized guild of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.

New Addition to Corporate Policies:

Appendix A:

1. Automated External Defibrillators (AED)

The Directors request comments from the membership regarding this
proposed revision no later than October 1st, 2009. Please send them
to:

Corpora Revision
SCA Inc.
Box 360789
Milpitas CA, 95036
email: comments@sca.org
--
Patrick Anderson
President
Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.
president@sca.org
952-412-4112

Comments are strongly encouraged and can be sent to:
SCA Inc.
Box 360789
Milpitas, CA 95036

You may also email comments@lists.sca.org.

This announcement is an official informational release by the Society for Creative Anachronism , Inc. Permission is granted to reproduce this announcement in its entirety in newsletters, websites and electronic mailing lists.

In short, "We're too cheap and lazy to maintain medical equipment, so fuck you." Seriously, has this even been a problem?

[The Yosemite Bear]

quick bring out the leeches, bone saws, and maggots we're going to go for accuracy.

[LadyTevar]

I don't know of a local branch owning such device in my area, really. I know for sure the Barony of Blackstone Mountain does not have one.