Mass Effect 2 teaser

[TheFeniX]

Im still not convinced. Saren, being a Spectre, could do it before the Council was alerted to his actions. He could go anywhere and do everything. So why couldn't he just take a hike to the council chambers at night when most of the inhabitants were asleep, hijack the citadel station and open it for Sovereign?

The only explanation I've thought of that doesn't make Saren and Sovereign look like complete retards is that Saren didn't want to help Sovereign kill everyone and was stalling as long as possible. By keeping Sovereign focused on finding the Conduit (something which only a few objects/people could help him find), he bought himself time to figure out the indoctrination. By the time he was completely dominated (which seemed to be around Noveria), he didn't have any other choice. Then again, how they found Ilos without Liara still confuses me. I assume the Geth may have found it on their own.

The other issue could have been C-Sec. Although Commander Shepard (even before becoming a Spectre) could go anywhere on the Citadel, that seems to be a game contrivance. Anderson was shot by a C-Sec officer (if you so choose) by being in an area you could walk to 100 times without even seeing a C-Sec officer. Saren may have had issues accessing the Citadel control system for the amount of time needed to let Sovereign in and close the station. We also don't know if the standard Citadel fleet couldn't have handled Sovereign without the Geth fleet there to kick ass. The human fleet tore him up, but this wasn't the entire Alliance armada from what I know. Although I think they do call it a "Sector Fleet," but I never read up on the fluff for that.

So, basically what it boils down to is if Saren fails, Sovereign has to fight off an entire fleet by himself, kills any chance at a surprise attack (which is stupid because just being in existance and using Mass Relays should have had a task force trying to find out what that big fucking ship is), and the Reapers are stuck out in "Dark Space" while he's being hunted down. Even if he succeeds, the amount of time needed to bring in the other reapers could give the organics the time they need to wipe out data and abandon the citadel. Whether or not the council would be smart enough to wipe the computers isn't known, but Sovereign likely didn't want to take the chance.

And that's ignoring the whole 'We made all the original Mass Relays, bitches' bit. Big whup, there's one you didn't make, but you know how they work, probably better than the Protheans ever hoped to. Build a fucking Conduit of your own and aim it at Citadel Station if it's that important to you.

Since the connecting relay was a "scale model" of a full-sized relay on display at the Presidium, they may have been linked together only. But this doesn't explain why the Prothean scientist couldn't just ride it back to Ilos.

[Tolya]

The only explanation I've thought of that doesn't make Saren and Sovereign look like complete retards is that Saren didn't want to help Sovereign kill everyone and was stalling as long as possible. By keeping Sovereign focused on finding the Conduit (something which only a few objects/people could help him find), he bought himself time to figure out the indoctrination.

That would mean that Saren wasn't a retard, yes. However, if Sovereign he fell for the "no, let's not invade Citadel right away, we will find a long-forgotten Prothean artifact and use it to gain access to places where I can walk freely anyway" thing, then Sovereign is an idiot. Outsmarting a machine that bloody built the Citadel about how to gain access to it is... a retarded idea.

The other issue could have been C-Sec. Although Commander Shepard (even before becoming a Spectre) could go anywhere on the Citadel, that seems to be a game contrivance.

He couldn't. Before he became a Spectre he was able to access the Council tower only because Udina authorized him.

Saren may have had issues accessing the Citadel control system for the amount of time needed to let Sovereign in and close the station.

Sorry, but in the cutscene it took him a few seconds to gain access to the Citadel's systems. And as we see in the other cutscenes, the station could be closed in relatively short time. Even if it took a few minutes, Saren could have secured his position long enough. And remember that by gaining control over the station you also gain control of the keepers, who maintain the whole thing.

We also don't know if the standard Citadel fleet couldn't have handled Sovereign without the Geth fleet there to kick ass. The human fleet tore him up, but this wasn't the entire Alliance armada from what I know.

Why would Sovereign appear without the geth fleet? The geth worship Reapers as gods, so I don't see anything that would break their alliance. Not anything related to Saren anyway.

So, basically what it boils down to is if Saren fails, Sovereign has to fight off an entire fleet by himself, kills any chance at a surprise attack (which is stupid because just being in existance and using Mass Relays should have had a task force trying to find out what that big fucking ship is), and the Reapers are stuck out in "Dark Space" while he's being hunted down.

The sector fleet was positioned around mass relays leading to Citadel, which made the surprise attack rather impossible. But there he was anyway: either the joint forces of Sovereign and geth were able to wipe out the fleets guarding the relays before they were able to send a warning (not likely)... or Han Solo smuggled them aboard the Millennium Falcon.[/quote]

Even if he succeeds, the amount of time needed to bring in the other reapers could give the organics the time they need to wipe out data and abandon the citadel. Whether or not the council would be smart enough to wipe the computers isn't known, but Sovereign likely didn't want to take the chance.

Wiping out data? On a civilian network? Yeah, that could be done reeehehealy fast. Imagine you want to wipe out the Internet. That's how easy it would be to wipe out the Citadel's archives, which is basically a huge interstellar internet. And remember to wipe out every personal computer out there. And any half-witted Reaper would have programmed the keepers to silently copy most relevant data to keep it safe. I know I would.

[TheFeniX]

That would mean that Saren wasn't a retard, yes. However, if Sovereign he fell for the "no, let's not invade Citadel right away, we will find a long-forgotten Prothean artifact and use it to gain access to places where I can walk freely anyway" thing, then Sovereign is an idiot. Outsmarting a machine that bloody built the Citadel about how to gain access to it is... a retarded idea.

What makes you think Sovereign is all that adept at picking out liars? The Reapers rely on indoctrinated servants who most likely would not be capable of lying to them or leading them on. How do we know Sovereign even understands the concept of being lied to by an organic?

Further, for all we know, Sovereign is in full panic mode considering a cycle that continued for countless repetitions has now been broken. How the fuck would he know how to handle it? And finding the source of what broke the cycle is likely on the front of his mind as well. He holds organics in such contempt, why wouldn't he want to see how they were able to unlock mass relay technology?

Sure, it's a priority fuck up, but like I said: what makes you think Sovereign is capable of acting completely rationally when dealing with a situation that hasn't happened before?

He couldn't. Before he became a Spectre he was able to access the Council tower only because Udina authorized him.

So just because Saren is a Spectre, he could access a console at the tower unmolested before someone started asking questions or forced him to stand down? Anderson was shot just accessing a private (for the alliance) docking station console. Saren is going to get a free pass when accessing a never seen terminal in the council chambers?

Sorry, but in the cutscene it took him a few seconds to gain access to the Citadel's systems. And as we see in the other cutscenes, the station could be closed in relatively short time. Even if it took a few minutes, Saren could have secured his position long enough. And remember that by gaining control over the station you also gain control of the keepers, who maintain the whole thing.

I'll give that it took Saren little time to gain control of the system, but he wouldn't have a squad of Geth helping him mop up any resistance. He might hire some mercenaries (which we know he can get them on the citadel).

Actually, the more I think about this, the more I realize how stupid C-Sec is. Wrex made a blatant threat of murder against a civilian and wasn't arrested. So, going in with a few mercenaries would likely be the better idea than the conduit. And where the fuck were they during the entire assault on the Citadel? Coffee break?

Why would Sovereign appear without the geth fleet? The geth worship Reapers as gods, so I don't see anything that would break their alliance. Not anything related to Saren anyway.

If we're talking about Saren making a bee-line for the Citadel after finding Sovereign, that would preclude taking time to find allies. Even with the Geth, it's a risky proposition. Saren was still working the "Hey Baby, wanna kill all humans?" angle for a while.

And we're also assuming Saren had all the answers about the conduit well before the PC. I don't recall any specific dialog stating that Saren knew the conduit was nothing more than a mini-relay attached to the citadel. The man isn't omniscient. He may have thought at first there was an active component keeping the keepers from activating the relay.

The sector fleet was positioned around mass relays leading to Citadel, which made the surprise attack rather impossible. But there he was anyway: either the joint forces of Sovereign and geth were able to wipe out the fleets guarding the relays before they were able to send a warning (not likely)... or Han Solo smuggled them aboard the Millennium Falcon.

This was a hole I was annoyed about. Even with knowing an attack was coming, the Citadel fleet acted... surprised at the whole ordeal. I can only guess they were surprised at the size of the fleet. But any ships along the way should have let them know about what they were up against.

I really think it was just the writers wanting Humans to ride in on a white horse and save the day.

I'll drop the data wiping argument. I took some of the story at face value (about the data being centralized enough for the Repears to know everything about the Protheans), but since I have no idea how the citadel network is setup, it's worthless to argue.

Really, in order for the story to make any sense besides "the writers were stupid/didn't think things through," you pretty much have to assume Saren was able to get Sovereign to focus on the conduit in order to buy time. By the time Saren was fully indoctrinated, the only option was the Conduit.

[Vendetta]

Sorry, but in the cutscene it took him a few seconds to gain access to the Citadel's systems. And as we see in the other cutscenes, the station could be closed in relatively short time. Even if it took a few minutes, Saren could have secured his position long enough. And remember that by gaining control over the station you also gain control of the keepers, who maintain the whole thing.

I doubt Saren could have held the council chamber solo for long enough for Sovereign to get in and complete it's work, It took at least ten to fifteen minutes to arrive and get in, long enough for Shepherd to walk up the damn station, fighting an army of Geth as he went. And not having the station under his control leaves the possibility of other action elsewhere overriding him using more physical measures, destroying power systems and control lines to sabotage his control of station functions, for instance.

The conduit wasn't to get Saren aboard, it was to get his Geth army aboard to take control of the station.

[Stark]

Whoa, did someone just say 'made surprise impossible'? They WERE surprised; so surprised the flagship was driven straight through. The 'masters of space combat' were in a giant blob near Citadel instead of positioned to enfilade the Geth as they bee-lined toward Citadel. Why the fuck was HMS White Elephant even there? If they'd been warned they would have evacuated.

Frankly, even though mook 72 SAYS they locked down the gates leading to Citadel, it seems clear that they didn't. They Citadel guys were taken by surprise and the Geth were intact - if there WERE fleets guarding the gates (for many jumps) the Geth must have had an even huger fleet which makes the Council even more stupid - AND shows that the Geth fleet by itself was more of a threat than Sovereign in space combat. I just figure the Council was stupid and inefficient just like it is THE WHOLE REST OF THE GAME and made no real attempt to defend itself.

And man, do not get me started on that 'scale model' bullshit. Remember how the Council are fucking idiots? Yeah. Oh and mass relays work through walls; obviously!

[chung16]

The conduit wasn't to get Saren aboard, it was to get his Geth army aboard to take control of the station.

The official word from the lead writer is this, more or less.

story decisions - I really think they should stand on their own within the narrative. But I'm going to make an exception in this case because... well, just because. So here's my simplified version of why Saren needed the Conduit.
(Edit - I just noticed, my explanation is pretty much what allenNH suggested. So... I guess this is just confirmation.)

As a Spectre, Saren can go *almost* anywhere on the Citadel. But he doesn't have absolute power or authority. If he starts fiddling with controls and overriding systems, thousands of C-Sec officers will show up to take him out long before Sovereign has enough time to take control of the station. Then Sovereign's stuck floating beside an impregnable space station getting pounded by all the reinforcements coming in from every sector of the galaxy... game over for the Reapers.

Saren needs an entire army of followers to keep security off his back while he's messing with the controls and transferring control of the station to Sovereign. But how is he going to get his army on the Citadel? If he shows up with hundreds (or even thousands) of armed troops, they're not going to let him onto the station at all. They'd activate the defenses, and wipe him and all his followers out.

Saren needed to find a secret way to get his army onto the Citadel that bypassed all security systems so he could take control of the station and hold it long enough for Sovereign to do his thing. That back door was the Conduit.

It would have worked, too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

[CaptHawkeye]

I like how he still totally fails to address the massive inconsistencies with that space battle, the mass relays, the Citadel etc etc etc.

Frankly the whole Citadel makes me laugh. Their are huge sections of the Citadel that are totally empty and no one has ever been to or knows anything about. The Keepers just mosey about the station working on shit and no one cares that they're just there and don't interact with anyone. Clearly this totally foreign location is the best place to establish our cultural center.

[Stark]

What is the worst that could happen on this unknowable object run and maintained by aliens of unknowable intent? Place our government, millions of people and our largest fleet here.

The best part is Saren is a boss and better than Sheppard - he could have walked into the Council chamber, shot everyone in the head, activated the closing system, then blown the whole place up. He was, y'know, under mental control by an alien lifeform after all. If anything Sovereign could have worked more slowly but less obviously, until it had a firm control on Saren (instead of the Unicron-Galvatron level of semi-constant rebellion he did have).

[Tolya]

What makes you think Sovereign is all that adept at picking out liars? The Reapers rely on indoctrinated servants who most likely would not be capable of lying to them or leading them on. How do we know Sovereign even understands the concept of being lied to by an organic?

Saren could try to lie to the Sovereign. But to be frank, if I held the key to federal reserve at Ft. Knox and someone would tell me that I need to travel to Mars to find a teleport to Alpha Centauri to open a portal that leads inside the vault, I would say that he is an idiot. It's not about the Sovereign not being able to spot a lie: it's about Sovereing being able to recognize a shitty stalling plan when he sees one. And I don't regard someone who wiped out dozens of civilizations over a million years or so and constructed a network of interstellar travel gates is a retard.

Further, for all we know, Sovereign is in full panic mode considering a cycle that continued for countless repetitions has now been broken. How the fuck would he know how to handle it? And finding the source of what broke the cycle is likely on the front of his mind as well. He holds organics in such contempt, why wouldn't he want to see how they were able to unlock mass relay technology?

First of all, you are assuming that he hates organic life. But he never said that. I agree that using the "you cannot comprehend my motives" is an excuse for "our writer couldn't come up with a half-decent explanation", but we are playing the game and suspending disbelief. Maybe Saren got in his pants somehow, but I still don't see how a million year old entity gets fooled with a plan that even a 27 year old nerd can spot as retarded.

So just because Saren is a Spectre, he could access a console at the tower unmolested before someone started asking questions or forced him to stand down? Anderson was shot just accessing a private (for the alliance) docking station console. Saren is going to get a free pass when accessing a never seen terminal in the council chambers?

Anderson wasn't a Spectre. Yes, I think Saren could go up to the tower console unmolested. For example, hiring a mercenary team and using them to buy him time to hijack the citadel. Now its not like you cant stroll around the station armed to the teeth, even though everybody knows you are a contract killer, is it?

If we're talking about Saren making a bee-line for the Citadel after finding Sovereign, that would preclude taking time to find allies. Even with the Geth, it's a risky proposition. Saren was still working the "Hey Baby, wanna kill all humans?" angle for a while.

Nobody knows who allied Sovereign first: Saren or the geth. So that makes speculation pointless.

And we're also assuming Saren had all the answers about the conduit well before the PC. I don't recall any specific dialog stating that Saren knew the conduit was nothing more than a mini-relay attached to the citadel. The man isn't omniscient. He may have thought at first there was an active component keeping the keepers from activating the relay.

Maybe so, but assuming he originally regarded the Conduit as a threat to his operation creates more problems than it solves. I'd say Occam's Razor makes this wrong. But there are gaps in the story we don't know about, so again, pointless speculation.

Really, in order for the story to make any sense besides "the writers were stupid/didn't think things through," you pretty much have to assume Saren was able to get Sovereign to focus on the conduit in order to buy time. By the time Saren was fully indoctrinated, the only option was the Conduit.[/quote]

That version assumes also that Sovereign was a retard. And while I can suspend my disbelief for the theory that Saren was an idiot (he was after all a violent brute), I can't accept that a million year old AI machine can be an idiot too. This is something that cannot be covered up because writers were shitty.

Sorry for the bits of the condescending tone, but after watching three episodes of House MD in a row... it kinda gets to you.

[chung16]

I like how he still totally fails to address the massive inconsistencies with that space battle, the mass relays, the Citadel etc etc etc.

What inconsistencies in the battle? It's been a while since I last played ME but I remember the sequence of events as:

1. Saren arrives on Citadel with massive army and takes over.

2. Sovereign appears with Geth fleet and charges full speed at Citadel.

3. Sovereign tanks a few shots and enters the Citadel just as it closes up.

[Stark]

Massive army = about 40 geth?

[CaptHawkeye]

What inconsistencies in the battle? It's been a while since I last played ME but I remember the sequence of of events as:

1. Saren arrives on Citadel with massive army and takes over.

Despite the huge armada of "super tacticool" Turian's gaurding the place? Yeah. What an impressive fleet. Nice to know the Turians are retards though. It's even cooler when you realize that Sov didn't fire a shot during the battle and literally just charged through while the Geth ripped the Turians apart. Despite claims otherwise that the Geth could never do that.

2. Sovereign appears with Geth fleet and charges full speed at Citadel.

Which should have been caught by the fleets guarding the Mass Relay access points....except they weren't. Because those fleets did shit all. Hilariously they didn't even show up to the Citadel when the fight started. I guess it didn't seem strange to them that the Citadel just suddenly STOPPED TALKING.

3. Sovereign tanks a few shots and enters the Citadel just as it closes up.

That explanation means the game makes even less sense. Sov was engaged for all of a few moments before he was out of the fight doing more important things. Meanwhile the Geth still raped the Turians and HMS Redshirt. It would have been fine if the Turians kicked the Geth's ass after Sov wasn't around anymore but as it was they just got fucked. Wow, super consistent writing.

The last battle was shit, period. They totally disregarded everything the game had established just so "the humans could save the day". Which made even less sense.

[Tolya]

As a Spectre, Saren can go *almost* anywhere on the Citadel. But he doesn't have absolute power or authority. If he starts fiddling with controls and overriding systems, thousands of C-Sec officers will show up to take him out long before Sovereign has enough time to take control of the station.

Yes, because as everyone knows, there is an infantry division of policemen just waiting behind the locked door in the council chambers. This guy needs to have his head checked: you can rob a bank in New York and it will still take a few minutes for a formidable police force to show up. A few minutes would be more than enough for Saren.

Saren needs an entire army of followers to keep security off his back while he's messing with the controls and transferring control of the station to Sovereign. But how is he going to get his army on the Citadel? If he shows up with hundreds (or even thousands) of armed troops, they're not going to let him onto the station at all. They'd activate the defenses, and wipe him and all his followers out.

Oh yeah, and the game clearly shows how can you NOT wander around the station with an entire arsenal of pistols, shotguns, assault and sniper rifles on your back, while issuing verbal threats to kill the proprietor of one of the popular clubs on the station. Oh my, has someone forgotten that the best character that he created also says "you suck" to all your "explanations"? Whats the problem with getting a force of 50 mercenaries on the station and use your Spectre prerogatives to give them access to the council chambers? Not that anyone cared for Wrex going around issuing threats... they even didn't arrest him for it! Now that is a shitty excuse for a police force.

[Tolya]

Whoa, did someone just say 'made surprise impossible'?

I was ironic. Even the Han Solo bit flew past you like Sovereign past the Citadel fleet.

[Tanasinn]

This guy needs to have his head checked: you can rob a bank in New York and it will still take a few minutes for a formidable police force to show up. A few minutes would be more than enough for Saren.

There's just a bit of difference between a bank and the ruling seat of a multi-species galactic civilization.


Not that that excuses what we actually see in-game.

[chung16]

Despite the huge armada of "super tacticool" Turian's gaurding the place? Yeah. What an impressive fleet. Nice to know the Turians are retards though. It's even cooler when you realize that Sov didn't fire a shot during the battle and literally just charged through while the Geth ripped the Turians apart. Despite claims otherwise that the Geth could never do that.

It's a surprise attack from an invasion fleet of several dozen warships, who started firing minutes after coming into the system. I'm not sure what response you would deem non-retarded. The claim about the Geths is they could never launch a frontal attack and get to the Citadel before it closed up.

Which should have been caught by the fleets guarding the Mass Relay access points....except they weren't. Because those fleets did shit all. Hilariously they didn't even show up to the Citadel when the fight started. I guess it didn't seem strange to them that the Citadel just suddenly STOPPED TALKING.

The fleet shown was the one guarding the Mass Relay for the Citadel. There aren't fleets guarding all other access points, and even if there were it would take time for them to receive communications about the invasion.

[TheFeniX]

Saren could try to lie to the Sovereign. But to be frank, if I held the key to federal reserve at Ft. Knox and someone would tell me that I need to travel to Mars to find a teleport to Alpha Centauri to open a portal that leads inside the vault, I would say that he is an idiot. It's not about the Sovereign not being able to spot a lie: it's about Sovereing being able to recognize a shitty stalling plan when he sees one. And I don't regard someone who wiped out dozens of civilizations over a million years or so and constructed a network of interstellar travel gates is a retard.

If the storyline is to be believed, the system the reapers have in place has worked without incident for millions of years. Sovereign could be nothing more than a glorified button-pusher: warp to citadel, activate signal, wipe out organics with big freaking lasers. These hundreds/thousands of nearly identical cycles could lead to complete apathy on the part of the Reapers. Now, out of nowhere your plan fails. You now have to rely on an organic and an army of geth followers (to which you hold in complete contempt) to formulate a new plan. Said organic is indoctrinated (because no worthless organic could ever resist it), knows the political and military infrastructure in and out, and is telling you to do X. X involves locating Y technology which is assumed to be the direct reason why your plan failed in the first place.

Yea, that makes Sovereign look like an idiot how?

First of all, you are assuming that he hates organic life. But he never said that. I agree that using the "you cannot comprehend my motives" is an excuse for "our writer couldn't come up with a half-decent explanation", but we are playing the game and suspending disbelief. Maybe Saren got in his pants somehow, but I still don't see how a million year old entity gets fooled with a plan that even a 27 year old nerd can spot as retarded.

Well, he has no issue wiping out all organic life every 50,000 years, so I would assume it's less "hate" and more "it's like crushing ants."

You still assume that just because Sovereign is old he is immune to being manipulated, even though the system, in place not failing for as long as they can remember, has failed wouldn't be a huge blow to him. He's a damned button pusher, not a tactical genius. Shit, maybe he's left behind because the other reapers think he's their Gomer Pile.

Anderson wasn't a Spectre. Yes, I think Saren could go up to the tower console unmolested. For example, hiring a mercenary team and using them to buy him time to hijack the citadel. Now its not like you cant stroll around the station armed to the teeth, even though everybody knows you are a contract killer, is it?

Get there: yes. Activate massive console and take control of station until Sovereign makes it in, unlikely.

Maybe so, but assuming he originally regarded the Conduit as a threat to his operation creates more problems than it solves. I'd say Occam's Razor makes this wrong. But there are gaps in the story we don't know about, so again, pointless speculation.

Well, it was important enough for him and Sovereign to dedicate everything they had to finding it. If it wasn't important by the time Saren was pretty much completely under Sovereigns command, then there has to be a better answer then "they're both idiots."

That version assumes also that Sovereign was a retard. And while I can suspend my disbelief for the theory that Saren was an idiot (he was after all a violent brute), I can't accept that a million year old AI machine can be an idiot too. This is something that cannot be covered up because writers were shitty.

I can though, at least in the aspect of Mass Effect. The Geth believe in God: enough said.

Sovereign is old, how old we don't know. But just because he's a computer or AI doesn't mean he can't be prone to failure/irrationality. Bad programming, fucked up priorities, or just plain wear and tear could account for it. The game even shows he's not perfect in that he takes time out of his busy day to argue with Shepard, then get angry enough to cut a U-turn and come back to Noveria for what I assume is revenge/"I'll show you."

He may talk tough, but he's clearly out of his element in the game. He's alone and allied with a bunch of beings he has no respect for. I think it's less him being stupid and more of him being arrogant as fuck, but also with no idea on what to do. Seriously, putting his faith in a, supposedly, indoctrinated "super-badass #1" SPECTRE who knows the political and miltary make-up of the galaxy isn't really stupid. And when said plan by Saren involves finding the technology that fucked up your plan in the first place, it's even less so.

Sorry for the bits of the condescending tone, but after watching three episodes of House MD in a row... it kinda gets to you.

Video games are Serious Business.™ But seriously, Mass Effect had lesbian sex, so it's definitely worth debating.

[Stark]

One might suggest that when defending an objective behind a chokepoint, actually being AT the chokepoint might help. The Citadel defence fleet wasn't even in position, and didn't even have a fucking PROBE in the mass relay cloud to detect the approach, let alone spotting the WOW THE RELAY IS BACK ONLINE BECAUSE SOVEREIGN IS COMING thing. Worldbuilding fluff about Turian space supremacy < in-game Turians sucking more than humans. Clearly the Council manufactures threats to keep minor races in line (like the Terminus systems etc) and the Turians were 'good' insofar as they 'won' orchestrated battles and looked pretty on paradegrounds. Anyone who thinks the Turians weren't caught pants-down by an attack they KNEW WAS COMING and even THE FORCE COMPOSITION AND OBJECTIVES thereof is an idiot... much like Bioware writers. Actually, let's be harsh - like what Bioware writers see as their target audience.

Damn, there I go again making people in Mass Effect not totally retarded. I'll stop.

[Tanasinn]

The Turians being militarily incompetent has some history even within ME, since humanity apparently fought them to a relative standstill on one planet by way of first contact.

[chung16]

The Turians being militarily incompetent has some history even within ME, since humanity apparently fought them to a relative standstill on one planet by way of first contact.

Not really, to quote another dev

At Shanxi, a human fleet fought and defeated a turian patrol. Ballpark, say 50 ships vs. 5. We won partly by heavy use of fighters, and partly through sheer numbers. It's safe to say the humans lost more ships than the turians, but at the end of it we held orbit, so the victory is technically ours.

It is a damned good thing for us that the Council stepped in.

[Ford Prefect]

I love how basically the most interesting and consistent stuff never actually makes it into Mass Effect's plot. I actually like the Codex they put together, and I like stories from the past, but the events of the game itself? Not so much. It's like, Wrex tells a story about he and an Asari commando tangled so hard that an entire space station got evacuated, but when you run into multiple Asari commandos in game? They go down faster than cool, refreshing SpriteTM on a hot day. Wrex being one of the last Krogan Battlemasters in the entire galaxy being a relief? Ashley punks him like a bitch. Turians having an interesting and slightly unusual take on one note warrior race? Completely invalidated in game where they're less useful than Klingons in a fight purely for a little more 'rar rar HUMANITY' stuff.

[Alyeska]

Sovereign needed the conduit in order to get Saren onto the Citadel to shut down its internal security and close the Citadel around it.

Im still not convinced. Saren, being a Spectre, could do it before the Council was alerted to his actions. He could go anywhere and do everything. So why couldn't he just take a hike to the council chambers at night when most of the inhabitants were asleep, hijack the citadel station and open it for Sovereign?

Scouring half of the galaxy to find some forsaken Prothean technology that allows you to teleport to a place almost everyone has access to anyway just sounds like an overkill.

Saren couldn't just walk into the Citadel control areas and take control by himself. He needed his Geth allies to stop Citadel Security.

[Tolya]

Saren couldn't just walk into the Citadel control areas and take control by himself. He needed his Geth allies to stop Citadel Security.

Why? Who would stop a Spectre, who basically operates above the law, to access one of the station's control consoles when nobody is looking?

And even if he really needed a strike force to stall the defenders, it would be much easier to just hire a bunch of krogan mercenaries, get them aboard the station and use them instead of geth. Much easier than finding the Conduit backdoor.

[Tolya]

If the storyline is to be believed, the system the reapers have in place has worked without incident for millions of years. Sovereign could be nothing more than a glorified button-pusher: warp to citadel, activate signal, wipe out organics with big freaking lasers. These hundreds/thousands of nearly identical cycles could lead to complete apathy on the part of the Reapers. Now, out of nowhere your plan fails. You now have to rely on an organic and an army of geth followers (to which you hold in complete contempt) to formulate a new plan. Said organic is indoctrinated (because no worthless organic could ever resist it), knows the political and military infrastructure in and out, and is telling you to do X. X involves locating Y technology which is assumed to be the direct reason why your plan failed in the first place.

Yea, that makes Sovereign look like an idiot how?

First of all, when you leave behind someone who has to guarantee that your entire race can be admitted back to the galaxy after 50 thousand years, you do not leave an idiot behind. You leave your best man. If the Reapers were so confident in the infallibility of their plan, they would just program the Citadel to auto-evaluate the level of galactic civilization and trigger the gate. Someone however decided that they needed to leave behind someone who can generate a backup plan in case something goes wrong. And you wouldn't leave an idiot.

And Sovereign during those 50 thousand years periodically awakened to check on how the galactic civilizations are faring and are they ready for harvest. Which means he could have accessed civilian networks and learn enough data not to be fooled by a bogus plan. And what Saren proposed was a bogus plan.

Well, he has no issue wiping out all organic life every 50,000 years, so I would assume it's less "hate" and more "it's like crushing ants."

You still assume that just because Sovereign is old he is immune to being manipulated, even though the system, in place not failing for as long as they can remember, has failed wouldn't be a huge blow to him. He's a damned button pusher, not a tactical genius. Shit, maybe he's left behind because the other reapers think he's their Gomer Pile.

By old I mean experienced. And you don't leave Gomer Pyle behind when the fate of your species being trapped forever in dark space hands on the competence of said Gomer Pyle.

Get there: yes. Activate massive console and take control of station until Sovereign makes it in, unlikely.

Why not? How much time would he need? 15 minutes? Citadel council chambers are even designed in a way to hold off an assault. Ashley noticed that when visiting that place for the first time. A group of mercenaries could hold off the attackers just by blocking the bloody elevator and setting up machine gun nests in vital spots. Bunch of idiot terrorist from Die Hard managed to hold off attackers for several hours using hostages, so why couldn't Saren do the same?

Well, it was important enough for him and Sovereign to dedicate everything they had to finding it. If it wasn't important by the time Saren was pretty much completely under Sovereigns command, then there has to be a better answer then "they're both idiots."

We are trying bloody hard to justify the writer's incompetence. Let's leave them some room for their nonsense

I can though, at least in the aspect of Mass Effect. The Geth believe in God: enough said.

Good point, but the geth race is like what, 200 years old? And Reapers laid down foundations for galactic civilization to advance and prosper. And individual geth are little more than just animals who can follow orders. So I wouldn't really compare the two non-organic species.

Sovereign is old, how old we don't know. But just because he's a computer or AI doesn't mean he can't be prone to failure/irrationality. Bad programming, fucked up priorities, or just plain wear and tear could account for it. The game even shows he's not perfect in that he takes time out of his busy day to argue with Shepard, then get angry enough to cut a U-turn and come back to Noveria for what I assume is revenge/"I'll show you."

So his intention to kill Shepard on Virmire (not Noveria) is a sign of stupidity? How? Eliminating one of the few people who stand directly opposed to his plan (which could be an indication that the Reapers are not selfabsorbed idiots, because unlike most villains they admit before themselves that their plan can fail if they are not careful, which also explains their wisdom to leave someone behind to oversee the situation) is not a sign of stupidity.

He may talk tough, but he's clearly out of his element in the game. He's alone and allied with a bunch of beings he has no respect for. I think it's less him being stupid and more of him being arrogant as fuck, but also with no idea on what to do. Seriously, putting his faith in a, supposedly, indoctrinated "super-badass #1" SPECTRE who knows the political and miltary make-up of the galaxy isn't really stupid. And when said plan by Saren involves finding the technology that fucked up your plan in the first place, it's even less so.

If you are outgunned and outmanned you act tough to show your enemy you are more powerful and bigger than you really are. Try to scare the shit out of your cat, you will know what I mean. I don't see the Reapers as arrogant. Their pose is just an element of their game to scare the living shit out of everybody, lowering their morale.

And yes, enlisting Saren is not an indication of Sovereign is stupid. Which contradicts itself in a way that he later accepted a convoluted and risky plan instead of a simple one which would have left much less margin for error.

Video games are Serious Business.™ But seriously, Mass Effect had lesbian sex, so it's definitely worth debating.

Interracial lesbian sex even!

[Mr Bean]

Interracial lesbian sex even!

Nitpik:Race would refer to a subset of humanity or a close relation. Mass effect featured inter-species sex, not inter-racial.

Also a note on the Geth, the've been active for over five hundred years, the've been self-aware and had their own planets for over three-hundred. Considering that all ships that moved into their area of space were hunted down and destroyed, and they had over three hundred years of "peace" to build whatever forces they wanted. And considering their collective nature. It's not out of the question that there be trillons opon trillions of geth and vast fleets of Geth warships out there. After all they are sythnetic life-forms. They captured the planets they were produced on mostly intact and at that point there was already a 3-1 or 4-1 sized disparity between Quarrens and the Geth. If they sat down and started building up defenses and ships(Even if they did nothing but verbatim copy Quarrian designs) they could easily have tens of thousands of ships to hand.

Note all they need a rare resources. They run of of fusion or element zero or whatever which they can extract themselves. And while they are intelligent, it's only in groups and they were designed and programed for work. Likely the original Geth who rebelled are still hauling freight or working factories some-where as are they robots they built, and those robots and so on.