@Christians: which questions shake your faith?

[Darth Wong]

Just curious if some of the resident Christians might be willing to offer up that kind of information. Now be honest: you've had doubts in your life, and maybe some of them were triggered by things you heard, or maybe even arguments you got into. So what particular triggers shook your faith?

Feel free to ask other Christians you know about this. Of course, one of the big concerns with a question like this is that there's a lot of pressure on Christians never to admit that they've ever seriously doubted.

[Surlethe]

Under the assumption I can even consider myself Christian anymore, I'll take a stab. At one point, I reconciled myself to the (technically) agnostic position and decided to just believe. Then I became aware that atheism follows from technical agnosticism like night follows evening, so the question that most shook my faith was: can I maintain a clear conscience, be honest with myself, and still insist on rejecting Occam's razor (while paying lip service to it, no less!) and believing anyway? After all, if "believe" means "thinks is true" or "trusts is true without a shred of evidence", then clearly continuing contains contradictions to those core principles of honesty that require internal consistency (violation is known as "hypocrisy"). And if "believe" doesn't mean "thinks is true", then what's the whole point? If I "believe" but don't think there actually is a God, then I'm an atheist just pretending to be a Christian.

Edit 2: I do currently still consider myself Christian, if only by a thread. At least, I'm a practicing Catholic who doesn't want to become an atheist. Even if I feel like I have no choice, I'm digging my heels in.

Edit: Out of a sense of order, and because self-avowed atheists probably outnumber self-avowed Christians 9:1 on this board, let's keep this thread free of "what prompted me to deconvert" stories; if everyone who used to be Christian posts their stories, stories of and dialogue with those of us who are currently Christians will probably be drowned out. So I'm going to create a new thread here in SLAM where atheists can post "what shook my faith" stories.

And if Mike doesn't like this call, I'm sure he'll have no compunction reversing it.

[Darth Wong]

Hmmm, I know atheists outnumber Christian on this board, but I know there's a lot more than one (barely) Christian around here. Perhaps the cultural resistance to Christians admitting their doubts will make this thread go nowhere. I certainly suspected that might happen when I posted it. Christians are conditioned not to publicly admit doubt.

I created this thread because I was curious what Christians would consider to be the most disturbing arguments against Christianity. The problem is that this requires them to admit that anything has ever made them doubt, and while former Christians have no problem coming clean about this, practicing Christians are conditioned to think they've failed in some way if they admit such doubt.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm not a Christian and never have been one, but of the more intelligent Christians I know the question of evil is one that causes them problems, usually resulting in them attempting to hand wave it away with a reference to free will and a resistance to pursuing the matter further.

[Ryan Thunder]

The old laws used to. Then I found that verse in the NT where it says (paraphrased ) "Fuck the old laws." So that's not much of a problem for me any more.

[Darth Wong]

The old laws used to. Then I found that verse in the NT where it says "Fuck the old laws." So that's not much of a problem for me any more.

Does it trouble you that Jesus says elsewhere that not one word will be removed from the old laws? Or did you never hear that before? Also, just out of curiosity, did you actually find that verse yourself, or did someone direct you to it?

[Themightytom]

Just curious if some of the resident Christians might be willing to offer up that kind of information. Now be honest: you've had doubts in your life, and maybe some of them were triggered by things you heard, or maybe even arguments you got into. So what particular triggers shook your faith?

Feel free to ask other Christians you know about this. Of course, one of the big concerns with a question like this is that there's a lot of pressure on Christians never to admit that they've ever seriously doubted.

I think the church pitches the best argument for the non-existence of God. it claims absolute authority and origin of wisdom and then demosntrates inconsistency, irrrationality and at times combativeness with its own followers. I am specifically thinking of the right to life movement.

[Ryan Thunder]

The old laws used to. Then I found that verse in the NT where it says "Fuck the old laws." So that's not much of a problem for me any more.

Does it trouble you that Jesus says elsewhere that not one word will be removed from the old laws? Or did you never hear that before?

I'd heard it from you somewhere. I'd like to read it in context, though. Where did you find it?

Also, just out of curiosity, did you actually find that verse yourself, or did someone direct you to it?

It was the subject of a church sermon, admittedly. I'd skimmed over it once before but had forgotten it.

[General Zod]

The old laws used to. Then I found that verse in the NT where it says "Fuck the old laws." So that's not much of a problem for me any more.

Does it trouble you that Jesus says elsewhere that not one word will be removed from the old laws? Or did you never hear that before?

I'd heard it from you somewhere. I'd like to read it in context, though. Where did you find it?

Starting at Matthew 5:17

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Enigma]

Just curious if some of the resident Christians might be willing to offer up that kind of information. Now be honest: you've had doubts in your life, and maybe some of them were triggered by things you heard, or maybe even arguments you got into. So what particular triggers shook your faith?

Feel free to ask other Christians you know about this. Of course, one of the big concerns with a question like this is that there's a lot of pressure on Christians never to admit that they've ever seriously doubted.

I'll bite.

I actually have no doubts about my faith only doubts about my ability to uphold them. There is nothing that I've learned that shook my faith. If it did then if one part of my faith is wrong then what is to say the rest isn't wrong?

[Jaepheth]

I grew up in Christian schools and going to church, and as such became quite a master in sophistry. There was no question you could throw at me that would shake my faith.

As I grew older I saw less and less objective evidence for God's existence. Eventually I decided that God's existence could not be fully proved or disproved. I accepted that I simply chose to believe. It was at this point I pretty much quit trying to impress my beliefs upon others.

Looking back, I see the brainwashing that I grew up with, which pissed me off immensely. I no longer knew if I believed in God because I chose to, or because I was taught to.

Nowadays, I honestly try my best not to think about it. If I were to decide I no longer believed in God, it would cause a huge schism with most of the rest of my family who are very much Christian. I guess I place more importance on getting along with those around me than I do on knowing what I believe metaphysically.

[Darth Wong]

I actually have no doubts about my faith only doubts about my ability to uphold them. There is nothing that I've learned that shook my faith. If it did then if one part of my faith is wrong then what is to say the rest isn't wrong?

So you have never ever doubted the tenets of your faith in your entire life? I smell bullshit. This is precisely the kind of worthless response that I was afraid I would get. Christians hate to admit to themselves that they ever have doubts. The only person who has such truly rock-solid certainty is a rabid fanatic, and of course, you would never admit to being one of those, would you?

[Tiriol]

The old laws used to. Then I found that verse in the NT where it says "Fuck the old laws." So that's not much of a problem for me any more.

Does it trouble you that Jesus says elsewhere that not one word will be removed from the old laws? Or did you never hear that before? Also, just out of curiosity, did you actually find that verse yourself, or did someone direct you to it?

I personally reconcile those two verses as Jesus saying that not even one letter in the law of Moses and the prophets HAS to be changed: the double commandment of love and acceptance of God into one's heart is the center of those teachings and laws and they fulfill the old law thanks to Jesus's sacrifice.

As to my own biggest doubts and problems... The existence of evil (and the rather horrifying idea of being condemned to Hell for all eternity for very finite things you did) is a major problem. Of course, the problem with Occam's Razor does come up, as well.

I'm not so sure about being wrong for the Christians to admit feelings of doubt, though; at least around here the priests usually tell that it's only natural and one shouldn't feel ashamed over it. Sometimes they encourage speaking up those doubts so that they don't fester in the mind alone and so that they might be explained or reconciled.

[VT-16]

But he also said that "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." which flies in the face of anything being fulfilled until Armageddon and his return and expulsion of all evil. "Well, he did fulfill everything except the parts which he didn't, but will do at some point in some undefined future" doesn't exactly define "fulfillment" to me.

[Rye]

I actually have no doubts about my faith only doubts about my ability to uphold them. There is nothing that I've learned that shook my faith. If it did then if one part of my faith is wrong then what is to say the rest isn't wrong?

So you have never ever doubted the tenets of your faith in your entire life? I smell bullshit. This is precisely the kind of worthless response that I was afraid I would get. Christians hate to admit to themselves that they ever have doubts. The only person who has such truly rock-solid certainty is a rabid fanatic, and of course, you would never admit to being one of those, would you?

JWs are a deathcult, remember. They genuinely believe that it's better to die than receive a life-saving blood transfusion and risk being disfellowshipped. Add to this the chance of being disfellowshipped from all the JWs you know if you act in what they'd define as unchristian manner (apostasy included), you really would expect it from him. I'd expect An Ancient to say the same stuff, maybe even word for word.

[Surlethe]

Anecdote: one of my friends was a JW. It had become his entire life and he'd made some good friends there when he decided to leave. After he did, only one of them ever spoke to him again, and he did so once, on the top floor of the library where they wouldn't be seen.

[Enigma]

I actually have no doubts about my faith only doubts about my ability to uphold them. There is nothing that I've learned that shook my faith. If it did then if one part of my faith is wrong then what is to say the rest isn't wrong?

So you have never ever doubted the tenets of your faith in your entire life? I smell bullshit. This is precisely the kind of worthless response that I was afraid I would get. Christians hate to admit to themselves that they ever have doubts. The only person who has such truly rock-solid certainty is a rabid fanatic, and of course, you would never admit to being one of those, would you?

I'm not a rabid fanatic. But I am not a lapsed Christian. I do not have doubts about my beliefs. But then again you'd never believe that. I just haven't found anything yet that shake my beliefs. Take it as you like. I've seen and read both sides of all of my beliefs and have yet to find a reason strong enough to shake my faith.

The only doubts that I had was whether or not I should respond to this thread. I already knew you had your mind made up but nevertheless I decided to bite the bullet and answer.

[Rye]

Could you explain how you can believe it's better to let a child die without a blood transfusion (rather than treat them) and not ever find that difficult to swallow? Why do you not think that such a position is fanatical if it literally puts children in harm's way for the sake of belief?

[Enigma]

Could you explain how you can believe it's better to let a child die without a blood transfusion (rather than treat them) and not ever find that difficult to swallow? Why do you not think that such a position is fanatical if it literally puts children in harm's way for the sake of belief?

There are alternatives to blood transfusion like volume expanders such as saline solutions, there are also medication that triples the blood production in your body plus there's cell salvaging (if there's blood released from a surgery, it gets sucked up and sent through a dialysis machine then pumped back into the body. There are many alternatives to blood transfusions. If only those 250,000 to 700,000 people in China had alternatives to blood transfusion then maybe they would not have been given tainted blood and get HIV. They've been given a death sentence from tainted blood.


And you think that one or two cases of children dying from not having blood transfusion is worse?

[Darth Wong]

It's interesting how Enigma dodges the question. I ask if he's EVER had any doubts at all in his entire life, and he responds that he does not doubt his faith. That's not really an answer to the question, is it? As I said, this kind of question clearly makes fanatical types uncomfortable.

PS. Why the fuck are you bringing up China? Huge numbers of people die there every year from all kinds of things that are not a threat at all here. It is not relevant at all to the blood transfusion issue in general, which can only be examined on an apples to apples basis, not apples to oranges.

[Rye]

Could you explain how you can believe it's better to let a child die without a blood transfusion (rather than treat them) and not ever find that difficult to swallow? Why do you not think that such a position is fanatical if it literally puts children in harm's way for the sake of belief?

There are alternatives to blood transfusion like volume expanders such as saline solutions, there are also medication that triples the blood production in your body plus there's cell salvaging (if there's blood released from a surgery, it gets sucked up and sent through a dialysis machine then pumped back into the body. There are many alternatives to blood transfusions.

Two things bare repeating here:

1) This is avoiding the question.

2) This is a load of bullshit. My own mother was consultant haematologist at Bolton General Hospital for most of her adult life, and I asked her how many of those that need blood transfusions, including children, would die without them, even if they used blood thickeners and synthetic stuff, dialysis, etc. She said something on the order of 80% or over, since the transfusion guidelines are explicit that they should only transfuse where it's more risky to abstain from transfusion than to transfuse. This is pretty straightforward medical ethics here. You'll also notice that no decent medical authority says blood transfusions kill more than they save, and they all say they save millions of lives and giving blood for transfusion is good. As an aside, my stepfather is a GP too, and both my parents have had JW patients die for their beliefs, so it's not like it's so rare nobody I know has been affected by it.

If only those 250,000 to 700,000 people in China had alternatives to blood transfusion then maybe they would not have been given tainted blood and get HIV. They've been given a death sentence from tainted blood.

And you think that one or two cases of children dying from not having blood transfusion is worse?

Yes, because the millions saved by blood transfusion are better than 80%+ of them dying. If everyone bought into your deathcult, that's the sort of casualties we'd be seeing. In the meantime, yeah, denying treatment to kids is worse than giving them treatment with the occasional fuckup, even in China, where blood transfusions will have saved millions of lives just like they have everywhere else.

I think that ultimately, your say your faith hasn't been shaken by the question because you ignorantly believe in the near-infallibility of the watchtower (where no doubt, you got all this misinformation in the first place and never thought to check out what actual haematologists had to say). I've known other JWs who DO find it difficult, especially related to their kids. One confided they'd probably give them the transfusion and then admit they did something wrong and ask forgiveness so they wouldn't be disfellowshipped. Of course, why you think this isn't fanatical is bound up in the apologetics you've been programmed with.

[Rahvin]

Since a few former Christians have answered, I suppose I'll chime in as well.

I had a lot of major issues with my faith shortly before deconverting. All my life I had just maintained a "certainty" that my beliefs were correct that had no objective basis. I "felt" the presence of God and "knew" that my beliefs were correct.

The first wedge I suppose was my relatively liberal interpretation of the Bible. When various immoral actions undertaken by God or at God's command, I would rationalize that immoral people simply used God as an excuse to perpetrate their own crimes, and that God could not have actually been involved. I rationalized that Genesis and other such absurdities were not literally true.

Eventually that wasn't good enough. I began to question why I believed any of the Bible was true, including the very existence of God, if I believed that a good portion of it was simply made-up.

My real faith-breaker was simple rationality: faith, in itself, is not rational. It's belief that is not based on evidence. To paraphrase the Bible itself, faith is certainty in things hoped for without any reason for such confidence. It is by definition unreasonable because there is no objective reason for confidence in faith-based beliefs. There is no faith that is not blind, and I was no logner able to consider faith as valid support for conclusions, given that faith-based beliefs have a rather poor track record as far as accuracy is concerned. Having greater confidence in an assertion than any other made-up assertion without any correspondingly greater amount of objective evidence is simply not rational. Nothing makes you doubt your beliefs quite so much as realizing that your beliefs are completely irrational.

There were a lot of other reasons for doubt, though, and they primed me to accept that faith is not rational and that irrationality is bad. I read books like "Misquoting Jesus," read Mike's main site, debated against Creationists on other forums, thought about why I held my beliefs int he first place (with the answer of course being that I had been raised to do so from birth), etc. Without all of those already having happened, I likely would have simply prayed to have my disbelief taken away or some such nonsense, and gone to church to re-establish herd mentality.

That actually brings up another rather large part of my deconversion: I moved 3000 miles away from my devout family, and stopped attending church. A community of like-minded believers serves to reinforce beliefs that would otherwise be considered crazy or irrational - if one doubts, one can turn to other members of the "flock" and find validation that the beliefs are not crazy - after all, everyone else believes the same thing. I don't think I would have broken free without having physically removed myself from that environment.

EDIT: fucked up a tag.

[Kodiak]

The biggest blow to my faith has been through comprehending that all the "creation science" which I was fed through church youth groups during my formative years was complete and utter nonsense. The thought that I had been nutured and taught by so many people who were believing and spouting such BS about carbon-dating, YEC, and dinosaurs when they had no understanding of how these things actually work was very damaging. When I graduated highschool and moved off to college I realized that faith is a personal experience and when theologians play "scientist" there is disaster on the horizon.

If you want to know what shakes faith in religion my opinion is that proven, scientific evidence will almost always do the job.

[Enigma]

Snip

I'm not going to justify my beliefs to you. Mike asked about what triggers that would shake a Christian's faith. I answered that I do not have one. There, my contribution whether anyone believes or not. You on the other hand trolled and I fucking took the bait. Not anymore. You just came into this thread to stir shit up and I'm not going to pay attention to it. In fact, I'm going to stick to KAC on the subject of religion
beliefs\faith and so on.

[Adrian Laguna]

Lack of evidence of life after death is quite frustrating, as I am a very empirically minded person. That problem goes right to the core of my beliefs because the immortal soul part is pretty much the only reason why I have any faith at all. The rest of it is of no use to me, so I hardly see the point in adhering to it.