To the religious: Why do you have faith?

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-02-05 10:26am

Because I simply can't believe that humanity and its history is the random interaction of sentient heaps of protein, and the events of life, good or bad, are coincidence.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-05 10:41am

Jegs, that was beautiful. Thank you very much for posting that because it crystalizes things rather nicely.

Durnadal, love for man is love for god. To love god means to love your brother as yourself.

Don't twist the message up with the messenger. The messenger has forgotten the message and pissed off a lot of people, the message is still there for those who want to believe.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-05 12:33pm

jegs2 wrote:The best I've ever been able to explain about Christian faith is how we explain "true love" in terms of long-term commitment and the giving of one's self to another (i.e. marriage). For instance, you cannot scientifically and conclusively prove that a woman loves you before you commit to marriage. Rather you must have faith in her love (vice her marrying because of money or something else besides true love), and you must demonstrate that faith through the act of marriage. Only after the commitment of marriage does one see whether or not his faith was ill placed. So it is with faith in Christ -- one cannot see the fruits of faith until one has exercised that faith. So far as Biblical verses on faith, here are some examples:

If I'm in love with a girl and she claims to be in love with me, I can generate certain predictions from her claim of love to test the validity of that claim. If she's in love with me, she won't cheat on me; she'll be honest with me, express affection for me, things like that. So, I can't conclusively prove that she is in love with me, but her being affectionate, honest and faithful give me justification for concluding that she is. Don't pretend that this is the same thing as blindly believing in invisible men in the sky. Yes, there is a certain amount of simple acceptance involved, but it's nowhere near the same as accepting delusions like God or Jesus.

I'll ask again: If a grown person claimed to have an invisible friend who told him what to do and comforted him in stressful times, wouldn't you think he was delusional or psychologically disturbed? Would you honestly give credence to his claims if he said it was the same thing as being in love?

Stravo wrote:Jegs, that was beautiful. Thank you very much for posting that because it crystalizes things rather nicely.

Durnadal, love for man is love for god. To love god means to love your brother as yourself.

Don't twist the message up with the messenger. The messenger has forgotten the message and pissed off a lot of people, the message is still there for those who want to believe.

Spin-doctoring. The message I've often seen is that love and loyalty to an invisible man is more important than love and loyalty to your friends, family and fellow man. That was the original message: God first, people second. If loving your fellow man is equivalent to loving God, then why not just fuck God and love your fellow man?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-05 12:37pm

It took a certain level of faith for me to believe that my wife truly loved me before marrying her, but at least I had her words and actions to go on, not to mention the objective fact that she obviously exists. I suppose you could call that varying degrees of faith, although the difference is quite large.

I was never Christian, but I tried to be for a little while, when I was in university. Rebecca was, and she tried to convince me that I would be happier as a Christian. But I could never bring myself to believe, and this thread is the wrong place for discussing the various conclusions I eventually came to after researching it.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-02-05 03:33pm

Durandal wrote:
jegs2 wrote:The best I've ever been able to explain about Christian faith is how we explain "true love" in terms of long-term commitment and the giving of one's self to another (i.e. marriage). For instance, you cannot scientifically and conclusively prove that a woman loves you before you commit to marriage. Rather you must have faith in her love (vice her marrying because of money or something else besides true love), and you must demonstrate that faith through the act of marriage. Only after the commitment of marriage does one see whether or not his faith was ill placed. So it is with faith in Christ -- one cannot see the fruits of faith until one has exercised that faith. So far as Biblical verses on faith, here are some examples:
If I'm in love with a girl and she claims to be in love with me, I can generate certain predictions from her claim of love to test the validity of that claim. If she's in love with me, she won't cheat on me; she'll be honest with me, express affection for me, things like that. So, I can't conclusively prove that she is in love with me, but her being affectionate, honest and faithful give me justification for concluding that she is. Don't pretend that this is the same thing as blindly believing in invisible men in the sky. Yes, there is a certain amount of simple acceptance involved, but it's nowhere near the same as accepting delusions like God or Jesus.

If you have faith in the love that someone may or may not hold for you, then what stops you frome believing in a deity? With all due respect, is trust not simply a matter of having faith in someone's abilities? If you have trust in someone, you have faith in them. If you have faith in a deity, then you have trust in them. You have trust in their existence. I'm definitely in over my head, but just trying to reason thigs out.

I'll ask again: If a grown person claimed to have an invisible friend who told him what to do and comforted him in stressful times, wouldn't you think he was delusional or psychologically disturbed? Would you honestly give credence to his claims if he said it was the same thing as being in love?

Basically the same thing as above. However, unless every religious person is automatically delusional and clinically insane, then you are invalidated by your statement.

Stravo wrote:Jegs, that was beautiful. Thank you very much for posting that because it crystalizes things rather nicely.

Durnadal, love for man is love for god. To love god means to love your brother as yourself.

Don't twist the message up with the messenger. The messenger has forgotten the message and pissed off a lot of people, the message is still there for those who want to believe.
Spin-doctoring. The message I've often seen is that love and loyalty to an invisible man is more important than love and loyalty to your friends, family and fellow man. That was the original message: God first, people second. If loving your fellow man is equivalent to loving God, then why not just fuck God and love your fellow man?

This I won't respond to.. cos I'm not sure how to.

Jegs2: Also you might want to look at 1 Corinthians 13.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-05 06:56pm

verilon wrote:
Durandal wrote:If I'm in love with a girl and she claims to be in love with me, I can generate certain predictions from her claim of love to test the validity of that claim. If she's in love with me, she won't cheat on me; she'll be honest with me, express affection for me, things like that. So, I can't conclusively prove that she is in love with me, but her being affectionate, honest and faithful give me justification for concluding that she is. Don't pretend that this is the same thing as blindly believing in invisible men in the sky. Yes, there is a certain amount of simple acceptance involved, but it's nowhere near the same as accepting delusions like God or Jesus.
If you have faith in the love that someone may or may not hold for you, then what stops you frome believing in a deity? With all due respect, is trust not simply a matter of having faith in someone's abilities? If you have trust in someone, you have faith in them. If you have faith in a deity, then you have trust in them. You have trust in their existence. I'm definitely in over my head, but just trying to reason thigs out.

You're committing a gigantic leap in logic. Trusting a person who objectively exists, who you have talked to, who you've interacted with, who other people have interacted with and who has consistently demonstrated affection and love for you is worlds apart from trusting in someone who does not objectively exist. Trusting in someone's capabilities is very different from trusting in his existence. Again, replace "God" with "My imaginary friend Bosco," and you'll see just how credible these claims are. Would you take me seriously if I said, "I am justified in trusting in the existence of my imaginary friend Bosco because I trust in the love of my wife/girlfriend"?

It gets even worse if you think that God is omnipotent and interactive with this world, because that means that he sits idly by while gigantic amounts of pain and suffering take place here on Earth. Even if we let the fact that it's irrational to believe in God in the first place go, there's utterly no reason for you to put trust in his abilities. He lets people suffer and die and allows evil to exist in the world unchallenged except by humans. You could say, "Well, it's all part of his plan," but how do you know? He's never detailed his plan to anyone. He's never offered an explanation for why evil exists. By any objective account, God fucked up when he created humans. He fucked up badly, and he hasn't done a damned thing to correct it. So, why should anyone trust in his abilities?

I'll ask again: If a grown person claimed to have an invisible friend who told him what to do and comforted him in stressful times, wouldn't you think he was delusional or psychologically disturbed? Would you honestly give credence to his claims if he said it was the same thing as being in love?
Basically the same thing as above. However, unless every religious person is automatically delusional and clinically insane, then you are invalidated by your statement.

Every religious person is delusional, because they believe in things which, by any objective account, do not exist. What do you call someone who sees things which cannot be objectively verified? That's right, delusional. Sure, lots of people may believe the Pope when he says that he speaks for God, but that simply means that it's a very wide-spread delusion brought on by ruthless indoctrination.

If you're going to grant credibility to someone for believing in God, then you'd better be willing to accept everyone else's delusions of invisible friends and voices in their heads. An irrational belief is irrational; it's popularity is irrelevant.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-02-05 08:52pm

Durandal wrote:Every religious person is delusional, because they believe in things which, by any objective account, do not exist. What do you call someone who sees things which cannot be objectively verified? That's right, delusional. Sure, lots of people may believe the Pope when he says that he speaks for God, but that simply means that it's a very wide-spread delusion brought on by ruthless indoctrination.

If you're going to grant credibility to someone for believing in God, then you'd better be willing to accept everyone else's delusions of invisible friends and voices in their heads. An irrational belief is irrational; it's popularity is irrelevant.

Durandal, I think that's a little harsh. Many intelligent people believe in a higher being, or something else they (or science) could never prove. It's like certain philosophies or ideaologies, it's something that just can't be compatible with the scientific method (does Nietzsche's Ubermensh have anything to do with science?); depending on what you believe, anyway. Creationism attempts to mingle religion into science, so it gets disproven like a little bitch. I am not a religious person, but I am what I like to say "relatively agnostic," so am I dillusional because I'm not a hardcore skeptical atheist? I used to be, or tried to be anyways. It just didn't work out for me however. Hell, I felt more disillusioned thinking I could rationalize everything in existence. Arrogant, even.

I don't have anything against atheism. Really, it is just about the only rational and logical approach to life. That's exactly the problem with my embracing it. I guess that's why Deists and agnostics such as myself think the way we do. Maybe there's more to the universe than logic and rationality. Well, that's my two cents. I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, anyway.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-05 10:30pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:
Durandal wrote:Every religious person is delusional, because they believe in things which, by any objective account, do not exist. What do you call someone who sees things which cannot be objectively verified? That's right, delusional. Sure, lots of people may believe the Pope when he says that he speaks for God, but that simply means that it's a very wide-spread delusion brought on by ruthless indoctrination.

If you're going to grant credibility to someone for believing in God, then you'd better be willing to accept everyone else's delusions of invisible friends and voices in their heads. An irrational belief is irrational; it's popularity is irrelevant.
Durandal, I think that's a little harsh. Many intelligent people believe in a higher being, or something else they (or science) could never prove.

Did I say that all religious people were stupid? No, I said they were all delusional. Please read my arguments before responding. If you believe something is there which cannot be observed in any objective fashion, you're delusional. This is a simple definition. Yet again, there is no meaningful distinction between believing in God and thinking you have an imaginary friend named Bosco.

It's like certain philosophies or ideaologies, it's something that just can't be compatible with the scientific method (does Nietzsche's Ubermensh have anything to do with science?); depending on what you believe, anyway.

This does nothing to change the fact that most religions assert the existence of some sort of deity which cannot be objectively observed or interacted with. Hence, most religions require you to accept a delusion.

Creationism attempts to mingle religion into science, so it gets disproven like a little bitch. I am not a religious person, but I am what I like to say "relatively agnostic," so am I dillusional because I'm not a hardcore skeptical atheist? I used to be, or tried to be anyways. It just didn't work out for me however. Hell, I felt more disillusioned thinking I could rationalize everything in existence. Arrogant, even.

Strawman. I didn't say anyone who isn't a hardcore skeptical atheist is delusional; I said anyone who believes in God is delusional. Please re-asses your reading comprehension skills.

I don't really get the agnostic position. So you admit the possibility that God exists ... do you also admit the possibility that the Tooth Fairy exists?

I don't have anything against atheism. Really, it is just about the only rational and logical approach to life. That's exactly the problem with my embracing it. I guess that's why Deists and agnostics such as myself think the way we do. Maybe there's more to the universe than logic and rationality. Well, that's my two cents. I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, anyway.

And maybe Ted Turner is a hologram; maybe John Edwards really does talk to the dead. And maybe theists are full of shit.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-02-05 11:24pm

I apologize. I get carried away with what people mean by their statements sometimes. I interpreted "delusional" as "some crazy man rambling in the streets." It's just that I know a good deal of somewhat-religious people (and, unfortunately, fundies, who ARE delusional) and they don't seem to be any more delusional about anything else than the next person. And I don't think self-professed believers like those who posted here would take kindly to being called that, either.

Yet again, there is no meaningful distinction between believing in God and thinking you have an imaginary friend named Bosco.

So what about Bosco? If he helps you through your day what's the big problem with it? Hell, I wish I had an invisible friend.

It's fun to have faith in some things, and psychologically re-assuring, too. I actually wish I could be a Deist once in awhile.

I don't really get the agnostic position.

It works for me, and whatever works to stop myself from going insane is fine by me. Specifically, it has to do with my philosophical beliefs. I like to choose a middle ground/balance in life. I see agnosticism as a balance in faith versus reason.

I think I'm going to drop out of this thread soon...My debating skills are woefully pitiful compared to others on this board. It would be best for me to sit back and lurk and learn than to make a bigger ass out of myself (which I tend to do sometimes.)

[/quote]

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-02-05 11:37pm

Hooo boy I'm gonna get flamed like hell by everyone for my post two posts ago, ain't I?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-05 11:50pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:I apologize. I get carried away with what people mean by their statements sometimes. I interpreted "delusional" as "some crazy man rambling in the streets." It's just that I know a good deal of somewhat-religious people (and, unfortunately, fundies, who ARE delusional) and they don't seem to be any more delusional about anything else than the next person. And I don't think self-professed believers like those who posted here would take kindly to being called that, either.

Frankly, that's not my problem. I never claimed to be diplomatic. Reminds me of the old saying, "I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter" (this is not a sleight at you, just a musing).

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-02-05 11:54pm

Me go lurk now.

*Lurks into the depths of the board*

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-05 11:55pm

Durandal wrote:Frankly, that's not my problem. I never claimed to be diplomatic. Reminds me of the old saying, "I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter" (this is not a sleight at you, just a musing).

Do you know where that saying originally came from, apart from me on the Hate Mail page? I had the vague feeling when I wrote it that I must have heard it somewhere before, but I couldn't place it so I just made some vague reference to it being a popular saying.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-02-06 12:02am

*Comes out of the shadows of the board, still lurking*

[drooling monster voice]I believe it is a fairly common saying. Who hasn't heard it before? [/drooling monster voice]

*Returns to the shadows*

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-02-06 12:08am

Durandal: Then feel free to fucking commit me.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-06 12:16am

verilon wrote:Durandal: Then feel free to fucking commit me.

Are you implying that you should not be committed?

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-02-06 12:18am

Darth Wong wrote:
verilon wrote:Durandal: Then feel free to fucking commit me.
Are you implying that you should not be committed?

If it weren't for the smiley, I'd say fuck you, I really would.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-02-06 12:21am

Sweet lord knows I need to be commited.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-02-06 02:13am

Oh, hell, into the breach...

Okay, why do I have faith?

I simply believe that God created the universe and all the things in it. I think that the human soul is the source of our motivation to do good, kind, and just things and that the wealth of an individual human's essense is too precious to be left to dissipate into nothingness when corporeal life has ended.

For whatever reason, I think that we are all individually valuable and loved, and our soul goes somewhere when we die. To a place where justice, good as well as bad, is given in the proportionally earned amounts. We will be rewarded for our efforts and intents, dreams and kindnesses.

Poetic thoughts aside, I also admit that I never had any revelation, epiphany, glowing ball of light, voice, or amazing circumstances to push me in one direction or another. I just believe in this and accept it because it comforts me to think that no human soul will be wasted; the idea that we become nothing but worm food seems depressing to me. If that is, indeed, all that happens, well, I'll never know (being dead and all) so in the meantime I feel that an afterlife is a more poignant end to a valued life.

Looked at logically, it sounds like purest fantasy. I have no proof of my beliefs; it is just feelings and faith, tinged I'd say by hope. I think that the order, logic, the physics of the universe are real and that is the way God designed it. The world came from swirling balls of gas and dust because that's the way it was created. Dinosaurs came and went, etc, and the Bible is an allegorical collection of tribal stories that puts an interface on the concept of a higher power. The various rituals are a part of that, and mostly for human comfort than to fit the actual needs of a deity.

While Jewish, I have lived in a Christian society and been to many churches and discussed ideas; I have also read about Islam and gone to mosques as well as lived in Israel for four years and attended many Orthodox study groups and attended a religious yeshiva (religious school) there for a year. I've found that the stated principles of peace and good things are universal but rarely lived up to; in my mind that does not negate the validity of the goal.

So there. It comforts me and like the idea while admitting I have no "proof" to offer. Someone who had faith and lost it has his/her own valid points of view and reasons for it.

...next..?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-06 06:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Durandal wrote:Frankly, that's not my problem. I never claimed to be diplomatic. Reminds me of the old saying, "I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter" (this is not a sleight at you, just a musing).
Do you know where that saying originally came from, apart from me on the Hate Mail page? I had the vague feeling when I wrote it that I must have heard it somewhere before, but I couldn't place it so I just made some vague reference to it being a popular saying.

I've heard it from different places, outside of your hate mail page. It must be one of those things that just perpetuates, and no one really knows where it came from. Hell, just type the phrase into Google and look at all the stuff that comes up.

Coyote wrote:While Jewish, I have lived in a Christian society and been to many churches and discussed ideas; I have also read about Islam and gone to mosques as well as lived in Israel for four years and attended many Orthodox study groups and attended a religious yeshiva (religious school) there for a year. I've found that the stated principles of peace and good things are universal but rarely lived up to; in my mind that does not negate the validity of the goal.

Really? I always thought you were Christian ...

verilon wrote:Durandal: Then feel free to fucking commit me.

Wouldn't most religious people describe grown adults who claim to have invisible friends or been kidnapped by aliens as delusional? Why must I suddenly be diplomatic with respect to religious people, who claim to have seen Jesus or talked to God?

I never said anyone should be committed for being religious. I said that religious people are delusional. That's it. Stop fucking reading something that isn't there.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-02-08 02:20am

Since when does being delusional to a certasin extent not get som,eone committed?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-08 02:53am

verilon wrote:Since when does being delusional to a certasin extent not get som,eone committed?

Theism.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-02-08 07:50pm

Anyway, back on the topic of faith.

I am a United Methodists, and quite proud of that fact. United Methodists are very liberal, in fact they encourage their members to take nothign off blind faith, something I like quite a bit. I've NEVER heard about how I was going to hell.

The reason I believe, is because it just feels right that there is something more powerful up there. I've had enough close calls and minor miracles in my life to make me believe that if not a God, there is some higher power at work, be it fate (Which I don't believe in) or luck. Like I said, there is no real solid reason or moment in life that causes me to believe, its just a feeling.

I almost did loose faith once however. A few years ago I was at a summer camp, for church. And some christian actors were there, they were pretty cool. Then on the last day they put on a small show which involved a few people who had died and were going up to the gates of heaven. First person came up, their name was written in this book and they got let in. Then next came a drunk, came up to this angel who was taking names, gave it, the angel couldn't find his name and he was told to move along to hell, as he left he was yelling out "I was a good person though." The next one I'll never forget, there was a couple, they'd been in a car crash. First the boy gave his name, his name was there and he was accepted, the girl then gave her name, and they couldn't find it. The angel refused to let the girl enter and they were forced to seperate (It was actually quite emotional with lots of "What's going on?" "I want to go with you" etc.) Then they were seperated, and at that point I was thinking "What the hell is going on? What kind of God allows this to happen?" Then they read the verse...don't remember where it is in the bible but it said something along the lines of "And Jesus said that accepting him as the son of God and as your savior is the only way into heaven." That moment nearly shattered my faith in God totally, but it did have the lasting effect of shattering my faith in the Christian faith.

After some time I decided that the Bible is a crock, words of God yes...but it was written by men, and as such much of what it says means nothing to me.