Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

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Connor MacLeod
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Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Having completed the thread for Interceptor, I now move on to the big ships with Leviathan. This one I was actually more interested in cuz I like big ships, and my feelings on it are mixed. On one hand some of the details they provided are quite cool, but on another its obivous to me they abstraced on alot of the details as well (for simplicity) and this causes problems for analyiss. Especially, its harder to use game stats for analytical purposes (Such as thrust, power units per class, etc.) Nonetheless I try.

Its also worth noting that as of this writing I have managed to acquire most/nearly all of a copy of the RL Capital ship briefing. Transcribing it is slow, but I am persisting in the process and it has filled in some of the holes I've had in analysis (mainly in terms of construction rates and shipbuilding.) I hope to get a chance to throw that in for analysis at some future date.

In the meantime, we'll begin. Enjoy!

"TOG Leviathans move through deep space seeking enemies of the empire. Kilometers in length, these colossal warships carry enough weaponry to boil a planet. Their captains carefully maneuver these ships like Dreadnoughts of old to maximize firepower. Their opponents do the same, circling in a slow, sinister dance that covers kilometers. The order to attack is given, and the fate of star systems is decided!"
This is (I believe) from teh back cover. Presumably the "kilometers in length" refer to the larger cruisers and battleships having "enough weaponry to boil a planet."
"Boiling a planet" does imply fairly substantial firepower. Assuming to bo il oceans of an Earrthlike planet it would require somewhere in the e26-e27 joule range of energy input (minimum). boiling the crust would require well over e28 to e29 joules, more towards the higher end if it also involves the upper parts of the mantle (the lithosphere) which can more than double the depth.
Leviathan is played on two or more 22x34 inch mapsheets. They show the emptiness of spacee.
...

Each hex on the map is roughly 75 kilometers (about 45 miles) Across, and each game turn lasts about 5 minutes.
Going by the diagrams in the game the map is maybe 30x30 hexes. If a hex is roughly an inch, that means it could be up to 45-50 hexes (or thereabouts), which would suggest the map encompasses thousands of kilometers in diameter. This (vaguely) puts supposed constraints on weapons ranges and speeds, though only in broad (gameplay-based) terms.
a TOG cruiser squadron consisting of one cruiser, one frigate and four destroyers is raiding a Commonwealth planet defended by a Renegade Legion squadron consisting of two frigates, two destrtoyers, and three fighter groups.
"cruiser squadron" are mentioned. ITs worth noting that despite havinh only a couple hundred thousand battleship squadrons (100,000 BB groups, 2-5 squadrons per group as per Legionnaire and other sourecs) the TOG has over a billion warships, so obviously they have to have more than just the BB squadrons or groups. (CArrier squadrons, carrier groups, etc. probably all also count)
No ship has ever been built with enough power to supply the demands of all the equipment usually installed. This shortfall is especially noticable in capital ships, which mount numerous weapons systems on such a scale that no ship could generate enough energy to power all of the weapons, all the shields to extremely high levels, and the maneuver drives that allow a battleship to move like a fighter.

Shield power levels are fixed during construction, so the player must allocte the ship's non-shield power between its weapons and maneuver drives. Normal allocation is half of the ship's non-shield power to each system. By using the ship's power shunts, a player can divert all of the non-shield power frrom one system to the other, thereby doubling one system and leaving the other temporarily powerless.
Note on a chart, 3 & 4 hex ships both have 2 thrust (cruiser and battleship) 3 thrust for a 2 hex ship, and 4 thrust for a 1 hex ship. This is quite contrary to how "thrust" is handled in Interceptor, (which is more sensible) and this creates alot of logical problems, especially given how they scale power. The fact that Interceptor and LEviathan are supposed to be interchangable also causes problems.

The "shortfall" concept can be most easily explained as that they can power one (or maybe two) major system(s) at peak capability (ie weapons at the expense of engines/shields) but not all three. This is similar to problems SW vessesl face, and its quite logical or reasonable.
The normal allotment of power to the weapon system allows a ship to fire its spinal mount or one broadside. A broadside includes all of the weapons on one side of the ship, plus those facing forward and aft. Turrets are always powered unless power is lost because of damage. Power shunted to the weapon system can be used to fire the spinal mount or an additional broadside.
This gives us a interesting perspective on equivalencies: Broadside firepower is (roughly) equal to spinal mount firepower, but is also equal to engine power (on stnadard settings) and vice versa. It provides an interesting way of "checking" calcs done for those (if/when they can be done) to estimate reliability.

That said, this should probably be considered only a broad "equivalency", since there are varying ways ships can be designed (lesser spinal mount with a more powerful broadside, for eample) and the aformentioned differences in thrust allocation between interceptor and leviathan causing problems. I'd also note its not neccecsarily a given that power is avialable for only "one" broadisde, as it has been hinted in novels that both broadsides (or both broadsides and the spinal mount, or the mount and one shield) may be rapidly powered, hinting that power surpluses may also differ. Some of this (as with other rules) could be treated as purely agmeplay.

Also, combined turret/point defense firepower is also insignificant relative to the power of the other major systems (which makes sense), giving us an indication that firepower is well above that established for fighters (Gigajoule, terajoule, kiloton, megaton, take your pick as to how conservative you want to be)

Power is lost if it is not used in the turn it is allocated. Unused power may not be accumulated from turn to turn.
this obviously can be considered a gameplay based rule rather than anything that makes sense, since it either violates thermodynamics or common sense ship design (yeah, lets just bleed off energy to no purpose!) And arguing that they aren{t designed to accumulate it makes no sense, as we learn later there are rules that allow for increased engine performance or to power multiple broadsides or the spinal mount.
Capital ships' movement depends on their class. All frigates move alike, ,for instance. Because of the great size of these ships, power/mass ratios vary little within a class, and so movement characteristics do not change from ship to ship as with fighters, gunboats, corvettes, and escorts.
- Note that I deliberately ignored the "manuever rules" based on class as it was fairly silly. Capital ships could use their full thrust for manuvering, but not to change velocity. This means (in other words) the main engines for linear thrust would be less powerful than the manuvering thrusters (an absurd proposition) At most, it should be the same, and at worst, the manuvering should be less thrust-worthy (either becaue it uses manuvering thrusters separate from the main drive, or the main drive has to have its exhaust "swung" to add a turning effect, either of which could be arguably less effective than straight, linear thrust. Another possibility is that there are limits to how quickly the ship can be turned by main thrusters, due to stresses it imposes on the ship.)

Again this largely stands as another example of how capital ship rules have been "streamlined" or simplified in leviathan as opposed to Interceptor.
When ship counters overlap, it does not mean that the ships are in the same hex, for all purposes except calculating range, each ship is in the counter's rear hex. Range is always 1 when firing at an overlapped ship, exelt that turret weapons firing at a fighter use range 0.
A hint at close in weapons and fighter/ship ranges, but also another eaxmple of the abstraction of "reality" for the sake of gameplay in leviathan (moreso than in Interceptor anyhow.) obviously as well, the 3 dimensional nature of space combat is also abstracted.
Combat range is the distance from the attacker to his target. When ships overlap, Combat range is 1. Weapon range is the maximum distance a particular weapon can fire, as shown on the weapons table on the record sheet. The closer the target, the easier it is to hit.
This (I believe) hints at the ranges of hexes and the believed 1500 km range for weapons (20 hexes) as per the weapons table.
All captail ships mount massive shield generators. These generators cover the huge expanses of the ship with very high flicker ratings. They are high enough to destroy any fighter carried missile. The shields do not affect a projectile from a spinal mount.
We're not told how high the flicker rates are, though they are apparently (presumably) high enough that the chances of any shot penetrating (like the 10% of shots penetrating in interceptor) is miniscule. Either that or this is yet another thing they've abstracted in Leviathan for simplicity. Then again, there are the shield rules in Centurion and the "painting" lasers, which only complicate things f urther. And lets not forget that technically, all flicker shields are based on the underside grav drives of grav vehicles, so that does imply in some way that a sustained output could be possible.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Bays are collections of weapons of the same type. They fire together, targeted by the same fire-control system, doing damage by rows.
Bays seem to be like age of sail "broadside" mounts, but some sources do imply they may behave more like grouped turrets (or at least have some "tracking" ability.)
Spinal mounts are massive weapon systems that hurl chunks of steel at near-relativistic speeds. Because the spinal mount fires a single projectile, it cannot be used against fighters. Nicknamed corwbars, these wepaons do tremendous amounts of damage, destroying smaller ships and causing internal damage to even the largest ship with a single hit.
Spinal mounts are basically like nova cannon in 40K, minus the explosive element (they're impact weapons.) A bit silly if you ask me to have a single huge "foreward firing" weapon - it would be easily intercetpable, harder to load, etc. I suppose one could assume somehow they use multiple spinal mounts or submunitions or something though.

I'm nt sure what "near-relativistic" is supposed to mean. I take it to mean "near-c" since its only when you get up to the higher velocities that relativity becomes noticable, but you could arguably go for a lower velocity.

It also makes you wonder why they don't make more use of mass drivers in broadside mounts if spinal mounts are so effective, especially since (as we learn later) Spinal mounts ignore shields. Note that in the William Keith novel, they do seem to use Mass drivers in more than just spinal mounts. (but then the Ketih novel is odd in alot of ways lol.)
The turret factors represent the masses of short-range, poitn defense weaponry on all capital ships. consisting of lasers, mass driver cannons, small missiles, and other fighter-class armaments, the combined effectivenss of these weapons are generalized into a single factor.

...

Turrets are effective only against fighters and missiles.
Note the turret ranges is about 3 hexes, which suggests 225 km max range (same as fighters). They are also "fighter grade" weapons, so they are fighter-grade firepower. We dont know exact numbers, of course, but we do know the combined firepower is a fraction of the larger ship guns/bays/etc. (diverting power from them or to them is pointless, at least ingame.)
Different types of fighter units do damage differently. Fighter groups inflict damage in the same manner as bay weapons, by rows. Fighter flights do damage as a spinal-mount attack. Fighter squadrons do damage in a column of boxes chosen by the attacking player. This allows fighter squadrons to pick exactly where their damage is done.

Certain designated fighter units can make missile attacks against unshielded tagets, either fighter units or capital ships and other installations with damaged shield generators.
Fighter missiles are (supposedly) useless against shielded targets (capital ship) but there are exceptions. One would iamgine shield penetration tech exists. Its also worht noting that fighters do "damage" differently, in game, and that its noted they can "choose" how/where damage is done. This suggests taht the fighter's ability to attack bigger ships is dependnt upon attackign specific areas/weak points, rather than brute foce damaging.
Various Renegade Legion games describe several types of missiles. Interceptor describes anti-fighter types, and Centurion describes anti-vehicle missiles. These are not weapons of mass destruction but missiles designed to damage a small target. HELL munitions, ,first described in Centurion, are much more powerful. Those carried by Capital ships are even more devastating, capable of inflicting thousands of points of damage. In space, these missiles cause only blast damage, not the shockwave and other types of collateral damage of atmospheric explosions.

Though missiles carried by fighters cannot penetrate a shield, the HELL missiles carried by capital ships are far more powerful - - so powerful that a swarm affects all ships within the target hex. A ship carries only one missile system, but it has a 360 degree firing arc.
"Standard" missiles are designed as focus-yield weapons rathe rthan wMDs (Area destruction). Capital ships are the most powerful, but seem to be both. We know from LEgionnaire/Centurion that ground combat missiles (TVLGs for example) use a variant of a hammerhead (X-ray laser) explosive. Presumably fighters and others can as well. This implies that capital ships use HELL (or better) warheads - which we know they do from the Leviathan Capship briefing anyhow.

The bit about "blast" is interesting - tht either refers to the radiation output, or somethign else, rather than shockwave. Then again HELL warheads are pretty weird to start.
Each ship class has a different number of internal component boxes. Thus, it is much more difficult to cripple a large ship than a small one.
Basically this means that bigger ships (capital ships) include a much greater level of redundancy to make it harder to disable/destroy. This probably helps account why ship battles seem to take so long and the apparent durability of Renegade Legion ships.
The navigation lights help tell other ships the direction a ship is hea ding. Even in an age of sophisticated sensor and computer tracking, someitmes a simple glance can prevent a collision. Damage to this system has little or no effect on the game because the lights are off or altered during combat.
This is probably only made possible in space due to very close ranges and slow accelerations, since you could only do it at very slow speeds and well within visual range.
Long range sensors allow a ship to detect and track objects just entering or leaving T-space as well as distant objects in normal space. While not strictly neccessary for T-spacee travel, long-range sensors certainly help. Their damage has an effect only in campaign games or scenarios where the emergence of reinforcements or the tracking of fugitives of battle is important.
The implication here (Vaguely) is that there might be a FTL (or semi-ftl) component to scanners. This includes T-doppler, but its implied to extend to realspace scanners as well. That said, I don't really pu tmuch stock in the implication, even though a logical case could be made for it (the existence of FTL communicatons would carry an implied existencec of FTL scanners, and we know tachyons can interact with normal matter as in the NPCs)

Mind you, given how perscomms are and P-comms, they can get around this with the exnteisuve use of Drones and probes and recon ships.
A ships' manuvering capability depends on the condition of its power plant and its sublight drives. These two major components of the ship work together to move the ship and power the rest of its systems.
Note that the implication here is that the sublight drive represents its own independent form of powerplant in addition to the "power plant" itself. This may indicate a form of redundancy (the engines hae their own dedicated power systems, in addition to general ones dedicated to other purposes.. The weapons and shields may, in theory, have their own powerplants as well.) This wouldnt neccesarily be inconsistent with the ability to "divert" power between systems - it could mean multiple reactor redundancy (several smaller reactors instead of one large one.) or the engine powerplant plus the main ship powerplant may work in concernt to provide overall energy.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Ford Prefect »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Spinal mounts are basically like nova cannon in 40K, minus the explosive element (they're impact weapons.) A bit silly if you ask me to have a single huge "foreward firing" weapon - it would be easily intercetpable, harder to load, etc. I suppose one could assume somehow they use multiple spinal mounts or submunitions or something though.

I'm nt sure what "near-relativistic" is supposed to mean. I take it to mean "near-c" since its only when you get up to the higher velocities that relativity becomes noticable, but you could arguably go for a lower velocity.

It also makes you wonder why they don't make more use of mass drivers in broadside mounts if spinal mounts are so effective, especially since (as we learn later) Spinal mounts ignore shields. Note that in the William Keith novel, they do seem to use Mass drivers in more than just spinal mounts. (but then the Ketih novel is odd in alot of ways lol.)
Presumably when they say 'near-relatavistic', they actually want to mean 'near the speed of light', and it's just a case of mistaken terminology. Otherwise they'd be referring to below .4 cee, which is when relatavistic effects are supposed to become noticeable, as I recall. Also, for a mass driver, a spinal mount is actually quite sensible, given that a longer accelerator allows for a higher projectile velocity. Given that they use mass drivers for point defense and fighter weaponry, it seems reasonable to assume that their weapon bays can and do feature ranks of heavier electromagnetic cannons, but obviously they don't have barrels hundreds or thousands of metres in length or fire projectiles presumably in the same weight range as fighter craft (if not larger!).

This might be why they ignore shields. A combination of their tremendously high kinetic energy and momentum means that they just can't possibly stop them; they could well tear shield generators right out of their mounts. This is pretty much supported by the notion that other projectile weapons, such as missiles, cannot bypass shields.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Andras »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Its also worht noting that fighters do "damage" differently, in game, and that its noted they can "choose" how/where damage is done. This suggests taht the fighter's ability to attack bigger ships is dependnt upon attackign specific areas/weak points, rather than brute foce damaging.
Fighters are the game-breaking element in Leviathan. It's quite easy to design a fighter that in a squadron of 6 will core a battleship in one round due to the damage allocation rule (2 crew, 10 EPCs, cra=~57, 41 kills a BB). Also, fighter damage to cap-ships is based on thier energy and projectile weapons, not missile attacks. It's also important to note that since Battleship-class hulls in the design system have no limit on 'bay-factors', they can carry an unlimited number of small craft and fighters if configured as a carrier (no spinal mount, no bays with more then 50 guns). Fighter missiles are used against enemy fighter units. All of my customs capital ships are designed to get all fighters into play in 2 turns at most, and some can launch all of the fighters on the first turn. Also, deploying them as a Group (72 fighters) is the worst because they get nuked and killed all at once. Squadrons (6 fighters) are best since you can stack the damage and if the hex gets nuked you only lose 6 fighters (and only 6 fighters isn't worth a nuke, plus those 6 fighters will be on top of your hull anyway).

Besides fighters, capital-scale missiles are the second most powerful attack system. The most powerful missile volley will do 150 points. This will kill a cruiser class or lesser target and put a serious hurt on a battleship unless it goes full defense and triples shields (but then does nothing else). Shield ratings and point defense turrets can diminish the damage taken, but the cruiser would be an easy kill if it survives (having about 10 points of armor left on 4 sides). Destroyers can be configured to carry the E class missile system (3x150pt volleys) which is the most powerful. One of my custom destroyer-carriers carries the E missles, 96 fighters, and no laser-bays. From a cost-mass resource viewpoint, destroyer and frigate class spinal mounts aren't worth it, I can build or buy 2 no-spinal destroyers for the cost of one with a spinal mount.

Despite the fluff, the game devolves into massed missile launches on the first three turns, and fighter mop-up on turn 4. You rarely get off a spinal shot, or a broadside laser volley, and if you do, it is hardly worth the results.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Frankly that just gives me more incecntive to want to be careful in applying the ingame stuff, if not ignore it.,
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Andras »

One other odd-ball in-game situation is that capital ships can out run fighters. Capships use acceleration to build velocity cumulatively. Fighter have a flat movement allowance based on their thrust rating, TR+2 for squads, TR+1 for flights, and TR+0 for groups. Get your capital ships up to a speed of 15 or so, and most fighter units can't catch them, but then you run out of map...
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Noble713 »

Here are some tech notes that I took from the novel "Renegade's Honor" years ago. I still have to book somewhere if additional details are requested:

spinal mount descriptions:
pg.26
"kilotons of destructive energy through kinetics alone"

pg.88
"The Gael Warrior's spinal mount weapon was a mass driver cannon designed to hurl large chunks of steel-jacketed uranium or thorium at greater speeds measured in tens of thousands of kilometers per second. The kinetic energy released by a collision between one of those hurtling, heavy-metal projectiles and anything else liberated energy comparable to that released by a small nuclear explosion."
I think this is referring to laser bays:
pg.51
"Those massive turrets and their megatons of destructive firepower were reserved for other capital ships."
BDZ Operations:
pg. 108
"Each ship in the fleet was to contribute to the bombardment, thousands of main weapons and primary batteries combining to generate an unstoppable torrent of energy that would biol Trothas V's seas, set fire to every shred of vegetation, transform its very atmosphere into superheated gases blasting out into space. It was estimated that a fourteen-hour bombardment would be sufficient to reduce Trothas V to a sterile desert and that a two-day bombardment would turn it into an airless, waterless, red-glowing cinder."

pg.114
"their beams blasting through the world's upper atmosphere with gigajoule upon gigajoule of radiant energy. The cities of Trothas V had vanished within the first few moments of the assault as thermonuclear warheads detonated."
"It was probable that no Human life remained anywhere on the planet after the first two hours of bombardment. After four hours more, it was statistically unlikely that life of any kind remained anywhere on the world, save in the depths of the seas, which had not yet begun to boil."
"...continued the bombardment for the full, prescribed fourteen hours. At the end of that time, Trothas V was almost entirely barren rock under an impenetrable blanket of roiling black clouds. There was still liquid water on the surface in places where once there had been seas, and there still was an atmosphere, of a kind, but the entire surface of the world had been scoured to sterility with brutal thoroughness. In many places, the rocks glowed sullen red, and molten rock still flowed in sluggish rivers where the beams had concentrated their assaults. Craters lay where citites had once stood. "
combined fire from a light cruiser and a destroyer:
pg. 345
"salvo after multi-megaton salvo"
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Noble713 »

I was going to edit this into my previous post but I guess I took too long to type it all up.
Connor MacLeod wrote: "cruiser squadron" are mentioned. ITs worth noting that despite havinh only a couple hundred thousand battleship squadrons (100,000 BB groups, 2-5 squadrons per group as per Legionnaire and other sourecs) the TOG has over a billion warships, so obviously they have to have more than just the BB squadrons or groups. (CArrier squadrons, carrier groups, etc. probably all also count)
Either the Shannedam County Sourcebook or Prefect mentions/includes smaller squadron organizations, as well as TO&E/OOBs for them. I'll have to dig that up....
Connor MacLeod wrote: Its also worth noting that as of this writing I have managed to acquire most/nearly all of a copy of the RL Capital ship briefing. Transcribing it is slow, but I am persisting in the process and it has filled in some of the holes I've had in analysis (mainly in terms of construction rates and shipbuilding.) I hope to get a chance to throw that in for analysis at some future date.
I've got some old notes for this too, mixed in with some stuff that I pulled from the Shannedam County book. I'll post it below almost unedited. Also, I have virtually every Renegade Legion gaming product except for Circus Maximus (and some as PDFs that I found on the 'Net).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CSB ### = Capital Ship Briefing pg. ###
interesting details are underlined

Battleships
Shiva: 6,000 on active duty, 6,000+ under construction. Nine years from 1st construction to commission. (CSB 108) With 6,000 active over 21 years since commission of first, average of 285 commissioned per year.
Illustris: common fleet flagship across 3 counties (CSB 104)
Colossus: Not as widespread as Shiva. Five lost at New Dogger Bank in 6795. (CSB 102)

Cruisers
Vulcan: common, in service for 18 years (CSB 84)
Tyrannus: Produced on 18 worlds. In service for 40 years; very common. (CSB 82)
Syracuse: designed 6574 (CSB 80)
Shilagash: produced 6742-6820. 200 destroyed by random explosions (CSB 78)
Seneca: Only 40 deployed 6826-6830 (CSB 76)
Invictus: Very common cruiser, in service 110 years, manufactured at 500 shipyards. (CSB)74)
Conqueror: 92 built between 6791 and 6810. Construction of 4-5/year.


Destroyers
Derfflinger: 570 in service since 6795(CSB 8). Average commission of 16/year.
Dochendal: 5,000 in service (CSB 10)
Fulgur: common for system defense (CSB 12)
Moltke: produced at 20 yards since 6731, 112 disappeared, 125 w/accelerator damage (CSB 14)
Morkanium: common ship, deployed 6809? (CSB 16)
Serpens: introduced 6806, very common (CSB 18)
Von Der Tann: introduced 6730 (CSB 20)
Canis: only 16 in Alaric Grand Dukedom (CSB 22)
Seeadler: 2,500 in service, procured 6745 (CSB 24)


Shannedam County forces: (for TOG only)
Battleship Squadrons: 10 (Ancona, Caralis, Ciria, Grosianus, Kellog, Mavinav, Messana, Muthra, Tarraco, Wuj)
Harasser/Long Range Patrol: 9 (Alcove V, Caesar’s Folly, Gustaviv’s Regret, Hubble, Iol, Pisae, Rolunitru, Sutherland, Tarraco)
Patrol/Defense: 9 (Betz, Caesar’s Folly, Caralis, Hamper, Messana, Olisipio, Thapsus, Ve’Fros, Yin)
Pursuit: 8 (Defiance, Mavinav, Olisipio, Rolunitru, 2 Sparta XIII, Therelzo, Ve’Fros)
Light Carrier: 2 (Carthage X, Grave)
Carrier Patrol: 7 (Ciria, Defiance, Gustaviv’s Regret, Ku Crassus?, Rolunitru, Thapsus, Zama)
Carrier Strike/Raiding: 7 (Grosianus, Ku Crassus, Mysia, Saguntum III, Shotra, Wuj, Yols)
Heavy Carrier Strike: 1 (Carthage X)

Minimum forces for the above:
Battleships: 10
Cruisers: 28
Frigates: 41
Destroyers: 120
Destroyer Carriers: 2
Frigate Carriers: 3 assuming fairly even split of frigate and cruiser carriers in carrier patrol squadrons
Cruiser Carriers: 13 same assumptions as above

Ground Forces: (per-legion counts based on the TO&E included in other RL products)
Garrison Legions: 232 (55,680 tanks, 77,952 IFVs, 623,616 infantry, 12,528 mobile artillery)
Strike Legions: 17 (6,528 grav tanks, 3,264 grav IFVs, 26,112 bounce infantry, 2,754 grav artillery)
Infantry Legions: 23 (3,634 grav tanks, 7,314 grav IFVs, 58,512 bounce infantry, 3,726 grav artillery)
Offensive Auxilia: 2 heavy
Garrison Auxilia: 148 (could be penal infantry, military police, air defense, etc)

Shannedam County
Consists of 40 colonies and 46 minor systems (military bases only) spread over an area 650 LY wide and 550 LY deep. Of the 40 populated worlds, 16 are TOG controlled, 8 are contested, and 2 are neutral. The county’s population is approximately 40 billion with an average of 1 billion per inhabited planet. Actual populations range from 300,000 to 4 billion.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I bought the novel of Amazon when I started looking into the Renegade Legion stuff. Its a book I have mixed feelings about. On one hand it gets alot of details plain wrong (warships are all less than a kilometer long, for example, despite being explicitly multi-km in LEviathan) and firepower is very inconsistently described (megajoules, gigajoules, kilotons, and megatons are used incosnistently, and the bombardment of Trothas is insane because it depicts gigaton or TT/sec firepower to do what it did in the timeframes stated - and that was at 100% efficiency! Oh, and a 20 Gigaton volcanic eruption being supposedly grreater than any man made nuke, even though nukes were used in Trothas...) Some of the FTL calcs were wonky too (I got at least one example that was faster than 10,000 LY/month IIRC)

On the other hand, teh things it got "right" in my mind are things like the starship densities (1 million tons makes more sense for a half km long ship than it does for a ship several km long, which the game stats do)

And a few things were downright useful because the materials I had didn't cover it (it gave me a better ability to calc the laser weapons of the RL universe, for one thing. and a possible capability ot establish shipbuilding capacity) It also helps to give us broad ideas of fuel mass ratios and does imply their powerplants are more gravity-wank (near-black holes- possible antimatter generation which helps explain the insane firepower of Trothas)

A few things were peculiar but in my mind made some sense as well (They describe weapons bays using more than just lasers - such as particle cannon and mass drivers as well) and they use dorsal/ventral capital ship turrets (mention them) as well as bay weapons - which is odd and goes against Leviathan, but in a way makes sense to me too. And capital ships can reach velocities far greater than the latter RL stuff (IE LEgionare, Prefect, etc.) suggest capable.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Ford Prefect wrote:
This might be why they ignore shields. A combination of their tremendously high kinetic energy and momentum means that they just can't possibly stop them; they could well tear shield generators right out of their mounts. This is pretty much supported by the notion that other projectile weapons, such as missiles, cannot bypass shields.
They ignore shields because shields can't stop masses greater than 100grams. Shields do fuck up electronics that pass through them, which is why they still fuck missiles. Tanks use big gauss cannons as their main guns in Centurion, because they'll shoot right through shields.

Renegade's Honor was written after they had done the background fluff for the universe (big ships, big enough fleets can BDZ, FTL up to 100,000 LY/month if real space insertion velocity was high enough), but well before Leviathan was made. I'm sure most of the inconsistencies stem from that.

And having played Leviathan, it's depressingly a game of victory by launching as many missile volleys of doom as possible and hoping that your PD and shields stop more damage than his point defences and shields while nibbling away/finishing off the mortally wounded with laser volleys and the spinal mount.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Imperial Overlord wrote:They ignore shields because shields can't stop masses greater than 100grams. Shields do fuck up electronics that pass through them, which is why they still fuck missiles. Tanks use big gauss cannons as their main guns in Centurion, because they'll shoot right through shields.
I know the 100 gram figure comes from somewhere but I don't remember what. I doubt that mass is the SOLE factor in penetration though, since we know mass driver rounds can be 4-5 cm IIRC, and even a sphere of solid iron with that diameter would mass far more than a mere hundred grams (a .50 cal round will mass a good 40-50 grams on its own.) I dont remember the whole "mass" issue being a big deal in interceptor, anyhow. And if it was a hard and fast rule, then given the short ranges mass drivers should be the primary shipkilling weapons not lasers (since any broadside you could throw would simply bypass the shields.) I think its more of a relative thing (or it may be sheer momentum - a bigger shell will have more momentum)
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by consequences »

Really, a thousand ships for fourteen hours and they'd still need gt/sec or tt/sec firepower to reduce the planet to 'a sterile desert'?
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

consequences wrote:Really, a thousand ships for fourteen hours and they'd still need gt/sec or tt/sec firepower to reduce the planet to 'a sterile desert'?
They melted most/all of the surface of the planet, much of the water content is vapor inside the atmosphere (nevermind the ejecta). The latter alone will put the energy intput well into the e27-e28 joule range. At 4 hours they've boiled much of the oceans and such which is going to e at least e26-27 joule range.

What's really telling (and what isn't indicated in those quotes) is that if they bombarded for "a day or two" they'd have removed the "atmsophere" - which would at that time include the evaporated wateR (nearly all the mass of those oceans) and whatever particulate matter is thrown up/clouding the atmosphre (trillions of tons or more of matter.) And that doesn't even factor in that removing the atmosphere. Removing the ocean content alone requires at LEAST E29 joules, and you can't really "hit" the atmosphere directly either - not with beam weapons anyhow.

And of course, there's going to be MASSIVE inefficiencies involved really, , especially conducting this much over the course of a day or two. REembmer that SW BDZ are assumed to occur within a few hours or less, that's fairly rapid as these things go, and not nearly as much time for the planet to be radiating off energy.

There's also the fact that the author is assuming these are massively smaller ships than they're noted to be in the actual material, meaning that he arguably underrated the firepower of the ships in question. On top of that, this is AFTER conducting a massive space battle, so they can hardly be argued to be "at full capability" either.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by consequences »

Couple nitpicks, removing the atmosphere was definitely supposed to take a full 48 hours, and the bombardment was at least five and a half days after the battle was concluded, allowing time for at least reprovisioning and field repairs. Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I know the 100 gram figure comes from somewhere but I don't remember what. I doubt that mass is the SOLE factor in penetration though, since we know mass driver rounds can be 4-5 cm IIRC, and even a sphere of solid iron with that diameter would mass far more than a mere hundred grams (a .50 cal round will mass a good 40-50 grams on its own.) I dont remember the whole "mass" issue being a big deal in interceptor, anyhow. And if it was a hard and fast rule, then given the short ranges mass drivers should be the primary shipkilling weapons not lasers (since any broadside you could throw would simply bypass the shields.) I think its more of a relative thing (or it may be sheer momentum - a bigger shell will have more momentum)
It's from the background fluff found in Centurion. Mass is the sole listed factor. It specifically states that. They don't use gauss cannons in space because the velocity is too low for accuracy. Momentum would make more sense, but that's not what they wrote.

Leviathan, btw, has the longest range of any of the games. 200m hexes for Centurion, 15km for Interceptor, and 75km for Leviathan. I agree that massed high velocity mass drivers would make more sense than laser banks as ship killers, but lasers were nasty in Centurion due to their high damage to mass ratio, something that gauss weapons were horrible at. It's possible that they used mass lasers because enough of a return, along with range considerations, that that's why their used en masse in Leviathan and giant mass drivers are used as specialty spinal mount weapons.

In a game where most of the damage is done by missile spam. :D
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

consequences wrote:Couple nitpicks, removing the atmosphere was definitely supposed to take a full 48 hours,
I know that's what the quote said, but there was other data relating to the bombardment that wasn't included about a "day or two" or some such. I'd have to dig in for it and I dont want to go dredge it out at the moment.
and the bombardment was at least five and a half days after the battle was concluded, allowing time for at least reprovisioning and field repairs.
There's limits to what one can do for "repairs" away from a dedicated shipyard/drydock, even if you have fairly sophisticated onboard repair facilities. In RL terms, some significant repairs (like to spinal mounts) can take YEARS (which matches construction rates for whole ships) It's still quite likely that even assuming repairs were conducted and ships were refuelled (again lacking the novel I can't comment either way on that) its STILL going to degrade capabilities at least some. You don't want to go straining any repairs you make unless you have to, if nothing else.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Imperial Overlord wrote: It's from the background fluff found in Centurion. Mass is the sole listed factor. It specifically states that. They don't use gauss cannons in space because the velocity is too low for accuracy. Momentum would make more sense, but that's not what they wrote.
YEah I know, but it still doesn't address the whole "bizarre" bit in the least. And that was hardly the only bizarre thing about the whole "Interceptor-Leviathan-Centurion" cross-referencing bit. The whole "painting lasers" thing as a means of piercing shields creates some real headaches for flicker rate (And flicker rate was a pain in the butt even BEFORE that...) Centurion added a whole new layer of complexity to the entire analysis thing. Oh yeah, then there's also the fact your 200-900 kph gravtanks fight at ranges no more than a few km, even though fighters and a rtillery can reach hundreds of kilometers (And int erms of capabiliies, tanks match up to the two...)

I'm not even goign to touch on Prefect or Legionnaire (The last giving me some REAL Headaches, such as how Spike/Slug weapons can fire hypervelocity plastic bullets at multi km ranges, and have pistols wiith 500 round/sec rate of fire with 2mm spikes and not tear the guy's arm off with recoil.) Or how missiles in this universe accelerate so sluggishly (when real life missiles can achieve accels many times greater on mere CHEMICAL engines.. ugh)

I realize that the text is the only source we have, and we have to try to take it as best as we can. But while RL is perhaps one fo the most *sensible* universes I've dealt with (at least compared to things like SW or ST) but the fact is there are still flaws, sitll problems, and still contradictions. Simply saying "thats how they wrote it" doesn't provide an in-universe answer. Really, its just an extension of how SoD deals with Dialogue vs visuals.
Leviathan, btw, has the longest range of any of the games. 200m hexes for Centurion, 15km for Interceptor, and 75km for Leviathan. I agree that massed high velocity mass drivers would make more sense than laser banks as ship killers, but lasers were nasty in Centurion due to their high damage to mass ratio, something that gauss weapons were horrible at. It's possible that they used mass lasers because enough of a return, along with range considerations, that that's why their used en masse in Leviathan and giant mass drivers are used as specialty spinal mount weapons.
Lasers could also ignore shields in Leviathan when you painted (at least briefly) and they allowed you to do some realy penetrating damage. I honestly haven't yet thought of a good erason as to why they do use lasers more - deep in my heart of hearts I think its just a "preference" issue and that in reality they can use lasers, particle beams, or mass drivers as anti-ship weapons if they wanted. (lasers or particle beams would have the partial benefit of "momentum" - intensity may matter, and both could possibly, at very close ranges, ,exploit "painting" type tactics.

I've had to figure out an explanation for why the weapons ranges are so short and I basically put that up to the flicker rate (Closer they are, the easier it is to bypass flicker rates, or to get more "bleed through" arguably.)

hell they probably don't even need missiles at all. Mass-driver guided munitions would mak more sense (stick a warhead on a mass driver, maybe use the missiles thrusters for manuvering purposes, etc. P-comms would provide exceptionally good control even at long ranges.)
In a game where most of the damage is done by missile spam. :D
And you people wonder why I wasn't fond of the gameplay aspect to begin with, nevermind my caution with the dialogue/fluff aspects.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Next lEviathan update... I actually deal with some of the combat aspects and the whole "spine/ship" damage issue here I referenceed above.
This is the vector-control system that allows the shiip to turn left/

..

This is the vector control system that allows the ship to turn right.
Presumably they also have up and down VCS, but these aren't included because such directions are abstracted in the game. And possibly retros. They may also use the aft engines for steering (as SW ships do.) The Keith novel suggests they do a "flip over" for deceleration, but nothing in the game I am aware of does.
The acceleration compensator allows ships to perform their gradual maneuvers with the crew standing perpendicular to the direciton of thrust. If the compensator is damaged, crew members must sit at their stations to perform theit tasks effectively. In game terms, this affects the damage control parties the most, slowing any repairs by one turn.
This implies that ship acceleratiosn never exceed the crew's own physical tolerances, though we may argue that accelerations may be at "reducd" rates (even though the game never reflects this) without compensators. even then though it still broadly affects top acceleration possiblie (you couldn't argue 1000 gees for example. Hell you probably oculdnt argue more than 100 gees tops.)
Most small ships carry an anti-grav drive in addition to streamlining for activities in an atmosphere. IF the drive fails and the atmospheric controls are damaged, teh ship will crash.
Anti-grav as well as reaction drives.. at least for smaller sh ips. Note that some of the bigger ships even are implied to have manuvering gravs in some sources (IE the Keith novels) Note that grav drives are believed to require considerable power - we may deem them to be possible additional sourcse of thrust for ships (as long as they have masses to push off of)
Spine cracks: The main structure of the ship has been severely damaged. On most ships this signals the end of its fighting capability. Among all the consequent effects of this damage is the destruction of the spinal mount weapon.

Repair time: 12 months in a certified shipyard.
Such major damage to the ship takes a year to fix. This probably means that big ships aren't b uilt faster than a year, as a rule. But then again it also depends on the damage, since some really serious damage (And spine cracks or structural collapse definitely qualify as serious) would probably amount to a total rebuild of the ship anyhow. This is at least parrtly gameplay anyhow, sincee its not distinguishing between ship types (somethign that WOULD MATTER, since the size/volume issue would affect strain and d urability and whatnot.)
Structural collapse: The ship is no longer structurally intact. It can no longer fight or maneuver, and in most cases, must be abandoned. Damage repair crews and repair teams cannot fix this type of damage.

Repair time: 1 month to secure for FTL travel
2 YEars at a certified shipyard.
Again, this implies big ships aren't buildable in faster than 1-2 years Much of what I said above applies here.
Large ships in Leviathan reach millions of tons in mass and carry thousands of crewmembers. With repair and damage control teams intact, the ship could theoretically fight forever. CErtain types of damage cannot be fixed without the equipment found in large shipyards, however. This same type of damage often prevents a ship from doing anything but drifting. Given enough time, the crew could make enough repairs to regain control of the ship.

Enemy commanders wishing to prevent this often pump massive amounts of fire into such a hulk in an attempt to blow it up.
Note that in game terms, this can mean it can take turns (many minutes) to actually blow the ship up.. 5 minutes at least, possibly 10, 15 or more depending on circumstances. This again suggests stupidly insane damage resistance (in universe, this probably means the really volatile stuff is highly compartmentalized, for example.

Also note the "milions of tons and thousands of crewmembers." Note that some of the ship masses are pretty absurd (think Honorverse absurd) for the densities they imply. This is again one of the problems I Have with the game rules and ship design. Simply hearing about the "missile spam" aspect of gameplay only reinforced these beliefs.
The explosion [of a destroyed ship] can damage nearby ships. T The collateral dmage table shows the amount fo damage done by each class of exploding ship at different ranges.
Note that the "range" mentioned can reach out to 3 hexes (implying that ships can take damage hundreds of kilometers away.) Note that this can imply tremendous levels of damage (comparable with the total energies involved in their bombardment feats, for example) since radiation dilutes in space. (for example, expecting a 2 km warship 300 meters in "height" to take double or triple digit MT energy from 200 km away from an exploding ship woul take a TT level energy release...)
In Leviathan, ,fighters have a special role. They are a very effective weapon in that they can pinpoint their damage...
Again, we get an indication that a fighter's ability to inflict damage on larger ships is their ability to target specific areas (weak points) as opposed to brute force. They're precision fire weapons, in other words. (They might do nasty/lethal damage to even large ships, but mostly we might assume they soft kill/cripple them instead in many cases.)
Fighters may shoot in any direction. Their weapon range is 3 hexes.
Fighter ranges max out to 225 km in LEviathan, which corresponds to Interceptor.
Fighters have no effective shields against capital ship weapons.
This implies that either cap ship weapons pack enough raw energy to pierce shields regardless of flicker rate, or that the energy that does get through (10% at best if we believe Interceptor) is still enough to fuck voer the ship. Fighters (and grav tanks) are meant to carry nuclear-equivalent firepower in their armaments (city-killing firepower) including missiles, which sugests you need megaton range to kill them. This owuld imply a single cap ship weapon is easily (at least) high megaton/low gigaton, and this doesnt even account for the kind of warhsip (destroyer or battleship, for example.)
A missile attack, however, affects every target in a hex equally with its full strength.
Missile volleys can attack groups of fighters, which presumably include full wings. This in turn means that missile salvos can encompass scores if not hundreds of missiles. (over a 5 minute turn, though, not neccearily all at oncec.) Some of this could be mitigated by assumtions of "area effect" damage, though.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Lasers are consistently the beam weapons with the best long range performance for the amount of power and mass dedicated to them. It does make sense if they were going to use any beam weapon for massed heavy long range batteries then lasers are the best choice.

Munitions of all types run into the "shields fuck up electronics" issue, although I'm sure that would lead to the development of sophisticated electronics to trigger the mechanical/chemical timer/fuse/whatever at the right amount of time before contact so that everything explodes as it should.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Imperial Overlord wrote:Lasers are consistently the beam weapons with the best long range performance for the amount of power and mass dedicated to them.
If this is based on th game stats, I probably disregarded this. I really couldn't find any way to make sense of the damage values (not that I realy tried all that hard, admittedly) even in a relative sense.
It does make sense if they were going to use any beam weapon for massed heavy long range batteries then lasers are the best choice.
Could be. Then again I already highlighted a few problems I had with the "range" issues in Leviathan, ,and that in my mind makes that argument a bit weaker (at 1500 km the differences that rage would make for a laser particle beam or mass driver won't be all that relevant, aside from the fact tht the laser may strike the target a bit faster.) And I'm not even touching missiles WRT range :P
Munitions of all types run into the "shields fuck up electronics" issue, although I'm sure that would lead to the development of sophisticated electronics to trigger the mechanical/chemical timer/fuse/whatever at the right amount of time before contact so that everything explodes as it should.
The Shannedam County Sourcebook describes the use of antimatter weapons, so I dont think it would be that difficult to devise a means of rigging a shell to explode without electronics (hell, on striking a striking a shield the containment probably would fail.) And you could probably adapt some form of Hammerhead shell trigger for some sort of fusion devicE (which IIRC is an explosion pumped laser head type weapon)

Hell, with teh HAmemrhead idea alone you could probably do some sort of Honorverse-esque "Standoff" attack. (But IIRC LEviathan showed up before Centurion did, so thats probably why it never did come out that way :P)
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

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Centurion was out before Leviathon.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Really? well that just makes the differences even more bizarre to me. :P
Quite sure.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Patrol class ships attack and take damage as capital ships do. Turrets can fire as long as the ship is generating power. IF a patrol class ship has bays, it may fire either broadside in a turn. If the craft has a spinal-mount weapon, no other weapon may be used, including turrets, in the same turn.
An interesting turn of events. Patrol craft can carry turrets, bays, or spinal weapons. Presumably this refers mainly to the larger types (ie Escorts) but it may include some kinds of corvettes for all we know. IT does suggest htat Patrol craft can carry a hefty degree of firepower though.
In Leviathan, gunboats have no shields, ,corvettes have 4 shield points, and escorts have 8 shield points.
the "no shields" probably means the same as it does for fighters - the gunboats are too small to mount any noticable sort of shielding. Generally I consider this yet more evidencee of how streamlined/simplified Leviathan is compared to Interceptor (or even Centurion) and how this creates problems from an analytical perspective.
Fixed weapons convert into bays. Turret weapons convert into a Turret factor
This seems to suggest all "bay" weapons are fixed (akin to age of sail broadside weapons) but perhaps with some off-axis fire capability (since they can fire in fairly broad arcs)

Only the anti-fighter weapons, it seems, are turreted.

Curiously, the novel "Renegade's Honor" seems to suggest that capital ships carry anti-ship turrets too as well as the bays) Personally I don't mind the idea that some heavy ship weapons are turreted, as it makes some sense (Dual puirpose weapons perhaps) Or it could be a matter of tradeoffs, since a "bay" weapon is more fixed, ,and you can likely mount more guns.
Though most patrol class ships do not carry enough hardpoints to launch fighter missile attacks, it is possible to build a ship with more. Players converting their own "missile boat" designs into Leviathan should use the following rules.

...

Auto loading hardpoints are the equal to five normal missiles for this uprpose.
Mention of corvette "Missile boats", including the "autoloading hardpoints" bit. I'd assume capital ship weapons hav esomething similar to an autoloader.
For ease of play, the power and settings required to operate a ship's shields have been fixed. Players who desire to get more performance out of their ships can add the following rules.

Treat the shields as a component of the power allocation procedure. Using this rule, power can be allocated among weapons, manuever, and shields. Power can be shunted from any of these systems to any other. It is possible, using these rules, to put a triple allotment of power into any one system. Triple power to the weapons will allow the ship to fire both broadsides and the spinal mount in the same turn. Triple power to the maneuver systems generates triple the thrust points, allowing turns at even higher velocities.
This is/was an optional rule, but it indicates you can transfer power between systems to augment on eat the expense of others. ARguably the evidencee suggests that weapons already operate at max power (at least per broadside) but that may or may not be true (Then again, you probably need to allocate some power to the other sides to counter recoil, perhaps.) Then again this may be like the "you can't store extra power from turn to turn" being purely gameplay, so drawing precise conclusions from this may not be easy (beyond that you can transfer power between systems.)

Note that I tend to treat the ratio as a "lower limit" as its a silly abstraction to assume ALL systems draw power equally. At most maybe engines and weapons would. Sheilds neccesarily wouldn't (though they wouldn't draw any MORE power either) - at least not constantly, since that power has to go somewhere. Hell the ratios may be more variable.


- Note that I've excluded rules for orbital facilities, T-space translations in the game, and most of the atmosphere/interface zone movement, gravity effects, and so on. since its largely a carry over from the Interceptor rules and it saves me tedium in typing it out simply to repeat myself.


In Leviathan terms, each Centurion Air Defense Century has a fighter missile rating of 25 and a Turret factor of 1 against missile attacks only. A Centurion Rocket Century can launch one Type A missile attack, but has no turret factor.
Game stats again, but we could conclude this to mean that a "Century" of air defense ships match a fighter in terms of firepower, and a rocket cetnury is equal to a low end missile battery. How one translates beyond those broad means isn't easy. I'm generally going with the idea they have variable paylod HELL munitions (tactical and perhaps strategic weapons.) Maybe they can behave like some sort of ICBM attack or a 40K Deathstrike.
A naval fire support mission is assigned the same way as an artillery fire support mission, but the type of ship (normally a destroyer or smaller class) is specified before the start of the game.

A Naval Fire Control Officer might be assigned to the Centurion unit, in which case an additional Medium Grv APC is assigned ot the Century. This APC has its infantry compartment full of the necessary communications equipment to call down naval fire support.
Criteria and elements involved in orbital bombardment supporting ground forces.
Most fire support from naval units comes from bays filled with scores of lasers. THeir attack bathes the target area with coherent light, heating the surrounding air into a column of fire. The net effect is similar to that of a HELL munition, with the target hex and adjacent hexes affected equally.

Bay weapons automatically destroy dismounted infantry and vehicle crews, unshielded buildings and any people inside, minefields, trees, and unoccupied craters.

Damage to vehicles and shielded ground installations and buildings is resolved in the following manner. For each such unit (friendly or enemy) in the impact hex and each adjacent hex, consult the following table to see how many times it was hit. The Centurion damage from a single hit by any bay-class weapon is equal to the weapon's Leviathan damage times 10.

Multiply this number by the number of hits and apply the damage as per HELL round rules, on all sides except for the bottom arour. The vehicles shielding does not reducee damage in this case. There is no gravitic effect from a bay-weapon strike, an dso moving vehicles do not need to ground as they would if caught in a HELL Blast.
Basically a bay strike can be considered to be roughly equal to a nuclear detonation in effect. Note, however, that this doesnt tell us whether its mainly thermal or blast, but a laser barrage isn't by nature going to be terribly efficient (most of the energy will go into the ground, with the effects being secondary.) the enerrgy involved could be significant.

The actual numbers are hard to run, and in any case it would just be a lower limit since this doesnt neccesarily mean a full power output. Its a multi-kilometer effect (either multi km blast, or multi km fireball) it could be kiloton, megaton, or possibly low gigaton, but probably not more than that (since the effects are stillf airly constrained/localized.) I'm betting kt/megaton tops. And, we're probably dealing with small vessels at least.

I'm just going to leave it at "its effect is nuclear like, just involving many times more energy due to inefficiencies" though rather than try to muddle with calcs.
Ships may also fire missiles in support of ground troops or against hte location of a known target. Because of the devastating effect on the countryside, the authority to alunch a missile barrage is normally not delegated to officers below flag or field rank. Even if a Century has a ship with missile capability providing fire support, this does not automatically give the player access to the ship's missiles. The assignment of a missile barrage is separate from the assignemtn of Naval Fire Support. Unless otherwise noted in teh scenario, a player cannot use missiles for fire support. Note that fighters' HELL Missiles cannot be used in this manner.
See above. I'm assuming ships routinely carry variable yield HELL munitions simply because they may have cases they don't want to completely fuck over the surfacee of a planet. Or maybe they are "dial a yield" like some nuclear warheads are.

I'm also not goign to bother trying to do any calcs on it. No point.
Units within the 100 point Radius sustain damage as though a HELL round had detonated. Units in the Gravitic-Effect Radius are treated as though they were one hex away from the explosion of a standard artillery HELL round.

The effects on trees, buildings, and craters are the same as described in the Artillery HELL Round rules.
Considering that the Capital Ship briefing and Renegade's Honor mention cap ships using HELL rounds, I dunno really what to make of this.
Still not gonna calc it either.
Most of the equipment described in Interceptor and Centurion whose main function is air or space defense is not effective against shielded capital ships. The pieces of equipment can combat fighters of any variety and most patrol class ships, and they can be used as described in Centurion.

In Leviathan terms, each Centurion Air Defense Century has a fighter missile rating of 25. A Rocket Century can launch one Type A missile attack. Air Defense Centuries and the Rocket Century have normal Leviathan Installation firing arcs.
Basically the stuff in Interceptor and Centurion regarding Air/Space defense (presumably including defense facilities) are mostly anti-fighter and corvette/patrol ship (in LEviathan terms) but they lack the firepower to damage cap ships. This again suggests kiloton/megaton range limits, rathe rthan anything in the gigaton range.
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Re: Renegade Legion Leviathan Analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Leviathan ships are monstrous affairs. They can range in length from the patrol class ships found in Interceptor to battleships that can be kilometers long.
the scope of what qualifies as a "leviathan" in the game. Corvettes/gunboats/escorts seem to be the low end.
Movement characteristics are not tied directly to mass/power relationships but vary with the class of the ship.
This is, as mentioned, quite distinctly different from Interceptor, and part of what creates no end of problems in this game.
Shp class Power Rating Range
Fighters 0-2500
Gunboats 2501-7500
Corvettes 7501-15000
Escorts 15001-30000
Destroyers 30001-50000
Frigates 50001-75000
Cruisers: 75001-100000
Battleships 100000+

Carriers can fall into any class, and their palcement depends entirely on their chosen size.
Power doesnt really follow mass as accurately here the way it does in interceptor, and as a result, capital ships tend to be alot weaker (and harder to compare to fighters) Logically in this progression, a carrier would be the most powerful (and primary) means of combat.
Once the class has been determined, the player chooses the exact power rating for his ship. Many designs are possible within each ship class. Cost factors and other considerations sometimes make a lower power rating more attractive or neccessary.
The only real use here is that it confirms that all designs involve some tradeoff of one kind or another.
It should be noted that the larger the engine, the more it costs, the more it weighs, and the less efficient it is. For this reason, the most effective designs use m ultiple engines. The cost in mass and money of the reqired linkage controls is usually far less than the savings of using two or thre smaller engines in combination rather than a single large engines. The use of multiple engines ia slo the only way to power the really big ships.
Limitations in Renegade Legion starship engineering. It makes one wonder if engines could go more than 2-3, outside of gaming convention.
Capital ships mount a vast array of weapons. The main types of weapons are spinal mounts, bays (made up of large numbers of individual weapons), and turrets. No ship can carry more weapons than it has power to fire. This includes spinal mounts and bays. Turrets are fixed by ship class.
Different kinds of weapons a ship mounts. Note the only turrets are defensive and assigned by ship class.
Battleships have no limits on what types of weaponry they can carry. THey may have 12 bays and may carry up to 144 fighters in any combination...

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Cruisers may carry 12 bays..

They may Carry Type A, B, or C Spinal Moutns and up to 72 fighters in any configuration.

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Frigates may carry 8 bays... Type A or B spinal mounts, and up to 48 fighters in any configuration..

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Destroyers may carry 6 bays... They may carry a Type A spinal mount and up to 24 fighters in any configuration...

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Escorts may carry 4 bays... They may carry a Type A spinal moutn and up to 24 fighters in any configuration.

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Corvettes may not carry any laser larger than a 7.5/6 in a turret and may carry only two turrets. They may carry two bays.... They may not carry a spinal mount and may carry up to 6 fighters.

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Gunboats may not carry any laser larger than a 7.5/6 in a turret and may only carry two turrets. They may not carry any bays, spinal mount, or fighters.

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Fighters may not carry any laser larger than a 7.5/6 and may carry only two turrets. They may not carry a bay or spinal mount.
Limitaitons on vehicle design in Leviathan. Not sure to waht extent this is all gameplay or not though.
Carriers have weapons restricitons baed on their class size. On carriers of destroyer size or greater, one-third of the ship's power must be dvoted to fighter operations and may not be spent on weapons or maneuver drives.

Fighter load limits are based on carrier class as follows:

Destroyer: 2 groups

Frigate: 1 Wing

Cruiser 3 Wings (This exceeds a cruiser's limit, so a cruiser with more than 5,000 bay factors - out of 5,400 BF max - allocated to fighters could carry only turret weapons.
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Battleships: 5 wings (Rumors of larger carriers exist)

Weapon loads are based on the power and the remaining Bay Factors. Carriers may not carry spinal mounts, and the bay size is limited to 50 guns.
Limitation sof the carrier diesgn, and the numbers of fighters they carry. Note the "rumors of larger carriers" existing bit.
Built into the keel of the ship, this mass accelerator is mostly shielded from damage. Covers block the opening of the accelerator when the weapon is not being fired. For a ship to carry a given spinal mount, the ship's total power divided by 3 must equal or exceed the power required to fire the spinal mount.
Spinal mounts presumably (due to recoil for example) are built quite strongly into the ship's hull, and at least by this (gameplay mainly) consume about 1/3 the power of the ship's total output. As do various bays and such.,
Type Power Tons
Type A 10000 250000
Type B 20000 350000
Type C 30000 400000
Type D 40000 500000
Type E 50000 750000
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Spinal mounts listed. I won't do much other than note the masses.

Spinal mounts would be a good way to calc firepower since (at least by game stats) a spinal mount consumes as much power (broadly speaking) as a broadside. The problem, though, is that we don't really know the mass of the crowbar.

Logically we could make inferences: its probably bigger than an interceptor, possibly even bigger than a patrol craft - hundreds or thousands of tons minimum (simply more compact though.) The problem is though that it is just that - conjecture.

I could only think of two other possible ways to do it: Compare the mass/volume of a Interceptor mass driver round and scale up to a LEviathan, or establisha scale up ratio between cannon mass and projectile mass from other real life guns and apply it here (EG Naval battleship guns).

The Former method: we know mass drivers propel 4-5 cm slivers of metal. I've already estalbished my rationale for treating that as diameter rather than length, and I don't intend to stop now. Interceptors mass between 100-200 tons usually (or slightly more or less) and can maybe be on the order of 10-20 m long, a meter or two tall, and maybe 5-6 meters in width (a very broad generalization, but it fits most fighters I think.). We know a LEviathan is between 1-3 km long (most, though the destroyers can go smaller) and mass hundreds of thousands or millions of tons. I'll go with 2 km (and roughly cylindrical) and a couple million tons for analysis purpose. Based on my very (very) rough volume estimates the interceptor/Leviathan ratio would be roughly ~1 million (not precise, since the figures can vary, but close enough for an Order of Magnitude estimate) By mass (assume 100 tons vs 2 million tons) you get a much smaller and more conservative ratio of 20,000 to one. I should note I dont put much faith in the massed based one simply because I've mentioned that I believe the Leviathan masses are distinctly off by orders of magnitude (although factoring that in would push the ratio up close to what I guessed by volume). In my previous Interceptor Analysis thread I guessed at a Mass Driver shell massing a couple kilograms (say 1-2 kilos) you'll get a shell easily many thousands of tons (or tens of tons if you go with the unmodified masses, but that would be evne smaller than most interceptors)

A slightly more different way to do this is to go off width or width/height of a fighter relative to the diamter of the barrel (thus guesstimating the diameter of a spinal mount compared to a capital ship's barrel) with a 5 cm diameter for the MD and a 5 m width (or frontal area, for a 1 m height this wont affect it much) you'll get a ratio of 100:1 (ship diameter/width to barrel diameter/width) If we go by a Shiva class (which is by my estimates 700-800 m wide) the Spinal mount would be maybe 7-8 m in diameter. If we assume 2-3x the width for the length it owuld be 15-20 m long (roughly). Assuming Iron composition you might get a mass of between 4500 tons and nearly 10,000 tons for the slug. Which again seems (roughly) consistent.

The second way is comparing real life cannon in gun mass vs projectile mass, which is more straightforward. Using the 16/50 inch batlteship guns like those on the Iowa as an example, we see that the gun weighs in at oh, 122 tons roughly. Round mass varies betwene 860 kg (for the HE types as an example) and 1225 kg (for the AP) or a bout 1.2 tons. I'll go with the AP round, and the ratio betwene the two is going to be.. again roughly 100:1 (gun/projecitle mass). I've fiddled with a few other guns on there for ratios, and while I do get different numbers they're not dramatically greater (I did a 5" gun and got 75:1 ratio, while using an 8" I got a 152:1 ratio. And the 18" yamato guns was ~120:1 IIRC). Heck even comparing other guns like artillery howitzers (like this one and going by recoiling mass) you still get roughly a 100:1 ratio. Comparing the 120mm Rheinmetall gun for the Abrams - 3300 kg IIRC and say a 20-24 kg projectile - HE round was the heaviest I could find is 130-160:1 ratio.).. soo 100:1 ratio seems like a safe bet.

Anyhow, with the ratio applied to the mount masses stated above.. you get easily thousands of tons for ar ound (2500 to 7500 tons) and again that assumes the masses are accurate (they may or may not.. its possible they are off jus like the starship ones are but this is easier to rationalize and forgive in most respects in any case.)

Velocity is supposed to be "near relatavistic", but I'm not sure how to interpret that. Atomic Rockets describes it up to something like 40,000 km/s or something (which does mesh with the Renegade's Honor novel) so we might say 10% of c here. It could also mean much higher, say near-c (60, 70 or maybe even 80-90% of c). I personally believe its "near-c" but it can be a matter of taste.

Assuming 10% of c with a 2000 ton shell, I get a KE of 9e20 J (nearly 250 GT). Assuming near-c (80-90%c) I get something like 1e23-2e23 J. This can be taken as eivdence for at least gigaton/TT level broadsides, anyhow.

Another interesting possibility/likelihood is that spinal mount recoil corresponds to starship thrust, so if you know one you cna probably figure the other.
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