Mass Effect 2 teaser

[TheFeniX]

First of all, when you leave behind someone who has to guarantee that your entire race can be admitted back to the galaxy after 50 thousand years, you do not leave an idiot behind. You leave your best man.

Well, we might, but I'm going off the assumption that familiarity breeds laziness. For all we know, they draw straws every time the genocide is complete.

If the Reapers were so confident in the infallibility of their plan, they would just program the Citadel to auto-evaluate the level of galactic civilization and trigger the gate. Someone however decided that they needed to leave behind someone who can generate a backup plan in case something goes wrong. And you wouldn't leave an idiot.

It's likely the citadel either doesn't have that ability or they don't trust it to work. I figure they would have been better off just making the citadel a reaper (if they could do that) or hiding one inside those giant areas no one can access.

And Sovereign during those 50 thousand years periodically awakened to check on how the galactic civilizations are faring and are they ready for harvest. Which means he could have accessed civilian networks and learn enough data not to be fooled by a bogus plan. And what Saren proposed was a bogus plan.

How could he just access civilian networks? If he doesn't know the protocol, much less the method in which data was sent, he can't do much with it. Also,civilian networks aren't going to give him to terribly much without risking being found-out. He'd need access to more sensitive data.

By old I mean experienced. And you don't leave Gomer Pyle behind when the fate of your species being trapped forever in dark space hands on the competence of said Gomer Pyle.

How experienced could he be? The entire cycle of Reaper life seems to be: sleep, activate citadel, warp in, spend 300 years killing everything, leave, sleep, repeat. You're assuming experience automatically applies to areas where it shouldn't. Interaction with non-indoctrinated organics is probably not even considered by them.

There is nothing to assume that even in millions of years Sovereign, or any other Reaper, has ever had to deal with this situation. Going back to my original point: A supposedly indoctrinated organic, with in-depth knowledge of galactic civilization and military matters is pointing you towards a device that is the reason your plan failed in the first place. Going with that is a pretty good start.

Why not? How much time would he need? 15 minutes? Citadel council chambers are even designed in a way to hold off an assault. Ashley noticed that when visiting that place for the first time. A group of mercenaries could hold off the attackers just by blocking the bloody elevator and setting up machine gun nests in vital spots. Bunch of idiot terrorist from Die Hard managed to hold off attackers for several hours using hostages, so why couldn't Saren do the same?

At least one C-Sec officer has expressed dislike for SPECTREs and I assume there are more. Also, C-Sec tracks every new arrival of importance to the citadel. So, depending on what Saren's current mission is, it may draw a lot of unwanted attention by him allowing multiple Krogan on the citadel, then showing up to the council chamber with them.

Good point, but the geth race is like what, 200 years old? And Reapers laid down foundations for galactic civilization to advance and prosper. And individual geth are little more than just animals who can follow orders. So I wouldn't really compare the two non-organic species.

Why not? Sovereign has shown a few times in the game that he is not perfect.

So his intention to kill Shepard on Virmire (not Noveria) is a sign of stupidity? How? Eliminating one of the few people who stand directly opposed to his plan (which could be an indication that the Reapers are not selfabsorbed idiots, because unlike most villains they admit before themselves that their plan can fail if they are not careful, which also explains their wisdom to leave someone behind to oversee the situation) is not a sign of stupidity.

Even explaining the entirety of his plan to Shepard was classic villany stupid #1. Too bad Shepard's too fucking stupid to carry a camera/voice recorder with him.

If you are outgunned and outmanned you act tough to show your enemy you are more powerful and bigger than you really are. Try to scare the shit out of your cat, you will know what I mean. I don't see the Reapers as arrogant. Their pose is just an element of their game to scare the living shit out of everybody, lowering their morale.

Lowering morale by giving your enemy all the information they need to remove all doubt about how large of a threat you are is classic stupidity. "Braggers tend to be floaters" can be applied to an AI just as much as humans. In fact, it would count more against an AI because their entire plan has never even required contact with non-indoctrinated organics (they ignore all attempts at contact). Bluffing/threatening should be alien concepts to them.

And yes, enlisting Saren is not an indication of Sovereign is stupid. Which contradicts itself in a way that he later accepted a convoluted and risky plan instead of a simple one which would have left much less margin for error.

How do we know that? Like I said, for all we know the Conduit could have had an active component stopping the signal from calling the reapers. Something besides writer stupidity has to explain why Sovereign didn't just attack the citadel outright. And the only explanation I can really think of points to Saren stalling until there was no other option but the conduit.

[Darth Ruinus]

Likely the original Geth who rebelled are still hauling freight or working factories some-where as are they robots they built, and those robots and so on.

I don't think so. The original Geth starting asking questions about their own existence, and then fought a war over their very survival. I don't think they'll go back to doing the same old thing after that. Also, the Geth hopper is described in the Codex as being a new variation of Geth that the Quarians never built, indicating that the Geth are able to research and engineer new technologies.

I wonder why the Geth aren't much more advanced than the other races. If they get smarter in larger numbers, wouldn't they have simply dedicated a few planets to holding large swaths of then, with large research centers nearby?

[open_sketchbook]

Likely the original Geth who rebelled are still hauling freight or working factories some-where as are they robots they built, and those robots and so on.

I don't think so. The original Geth starting asking questions about their own existence, and then fought a war over their very survival. I don't think they'll go back to doing the same old thing after that. Also, the Geth hopper is described in the Codex as being a new variation of Geth that the Quarians never built, indicating that the Geth are able to research and engineer new technologies.

I wonder why the Geth aren't much more advanced than the other races. If they get smarter in larger numbers, wouldn't they have simply dedicated a few planets to holding large swaths of then, with large research centers nearby?

While the Geth are machines, they are also sentient artificial life and have their own quirks; they have religion! It's not a stretch that they'd find an idea like that revolting, designating members of their own race to be little more than nodes to make scientists smarter.

[Darth Ruinus]

While the Geth are machines, they are also sentient artificial life and have their own quirks; they have religion! It's not a stretch that they'd find an idea like that revolting, designating members of their own race to be little more than nodes to make scientists smarter.

Their cities should function like that though. Anywhere the Geth are found in large numbers, the smarter those Geth will be. Even one research center or academy or whatever they have could benefit by simply being in the middle of a large city. Its not as if these thinking Geth would have to be tied down and only think, they just have to be next to a large concentration of others of their own kind.

[open_sketchbook]

That is true. However, there might be other, more subtle reasons involved, where taking direct advantage of the whole numbers = intelligence thing is considered somehow immoral. It is also possible that the effect has a distinct upper limit.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

That is true. However, there might be other, more subtle reasons involved, where taking direct advantage of the whole numbers = intelligence thing is considered somehow immoral. It is also possible that the effect has a distinct upper limit.

I'd have to imagine it would have a hard upper limit. Its not like they run something like the Patriot System. If anything, I'd venture it's closer to the various protein folding programs available to us in present day, distributed calculations of possible tactical situations.

Say, they relay their positions, their known enemy positions, and rough terrain data. They each process a short batch of strategies, retransmit their best results objective wise, and act on the best of those.


It would at least pass off why, individually, they really don't seem any dumber or smarter in combat based on the number involved.

[Darth Ruinus]

they have religion! It's not a stretch that they'd find an idea like that revolting, designating members of their own race to be little more than nodes to make scientists smarter.

where taking direct advantage of the whole numbers = intelligence thing is considered somehow immoral.

You know, I just had an idea about their religion.

Instead of them believe that the Reapers are literal gods in the sense most organics think of them, Geth don't believe in "magical sky pixie that is powered by raindows" but more accurately in "the pinnacle of non-organic evolution." So their churches function towards that end. Large numbers of Geth show up to church/research centers, and instead of praying, they simply contemplate and devise new methods to develop more advanced technology.

I also just realized Telos (from KOTOR II) and Feros just have two letters changed and are both cities suspended over a ruined world. Twi'leks = asari in terms of "blue sexy alien girls that everyone wants".

[open_sketchbook]

Which brings up my favorite Mass Effects related joke which I devised while sinking the 150 some hours that have been devored by that goddamn time vampire; "Assari; they're Twi'lek Lite!" One day, I will make a shirt of this, and people shall purchase it.

[Stark]

I also just realized Telos (from KOTOR II) and Feros just have two letters changed and are both cities suspended over a ruined world. Twi'leks = asari in terms of "blue sexy alien girls that everyone wants".

Did you just realise Bioware are creatively bankrupt?

Growing up can be hard.

There's no real reason to accept 'Geth see Reapers as gods' at all. Who says it? Not Geth that's for fucking sure. They work for Saren who works for Sovereign, but there's no reason to believe they have been fully briefed on the Reapers' program and they're likely to see 'kill those idiots in the Citadel' as a pretty neat mid-term goal.

[open_sketchbook]

Though we're pretty sure they worship something, I never really thought it was the Reapers. Whatever it is, it glows real bright.

[Samuel]

I also just realized Telos (from KOTOR II) and Feros just have two letters changed and are both cities suspended over a ruined world. Twi'leks = asari in terms of "blue sexy alien girls that everyone wants".

Did you just realise Bioware are creatively bankrupt?

Growing up can be hard.

There's no real reason to accept 'Geth see Reapers as gods' at all. Who says it? Not Geth that's for fucking sure. They work for Saren who works for Sovereign, but there's no reason to believe they have been fully briefed on the Reapers' program and they're likely to see 'kill those idiots in the Citadel' as a pretty neat mid-term goal.

The best way to see that is to play Jade Empire and then play KoTOR. Lets see, we have the fighter sequence, we have the arena, we have the training school, we have the villians recruting ground, we have the floating fortress, we have the tombs... I could go on, but they essentially recycle quests and settings like nobodies business.

Reusing names is just pathetically lazy though.

[White Haven]

They worship something bright in the middle of a shrine that looks suspiciously like the gripping hand of Sovereign.

[Tolya]

There's no real reason to accept 'Geth see Reapers as gods' at all. Who says it? Not Geth that's for fucking sure. They work for Saren who works for Sovereign, but there's no reason to believe they have been fully briefed on the Reapers' program and they're likely to see 'kill those idiots in the Citadel' as a pretty neat mid-term goal.

What else is there left to worship Stark? If not the Reapers, then maybe they worship an invisible 60-Watt lightbulb. And it even exists, as demonstrated in-game (Feros).

[Samuel]

There's no real reason to accept 'Geth see Reapers as gods' at all. Who says it? Not Geth that's for fucking sure. They work for Saren who works for Sovereign, but there's no reason to believe they have been fully briefed on the Reapers' program and they're likely to see 'kill those idiots in the Citadel' as a pretty neat mid-term goal.

What else is there left to worship Stark? If not the Reapers, then maybe they worship an invisible 60-Watt lightbulb. And it even exists, as demonstrated in-game (Feros).

I hear some people worship abstract concepts or things that don't really exist. Of course, this being a game, All Mythologies are true and their God (watever it might be) exists.

[White Haven]

A race that is state in-game by a third party to worship a particular character and who does said worshipping at a shrine that looks like a part OF that particular character might reasonably be expected to, perhaps, worship that particular character. Or perhaps you want to go haring off into a completely unsupported direction for shits and giggles.

[Tolya]

A race that is state in-game by a third party to worship a particular character and who does said worshipping at a shrine that looks like a part OF that particular character might reasonably be expected to, perhaps, worship that particular character. Or perhaps you want to go haring off into a completely unsupported direction for shits and giggles.

I didn't find that shrine thingy to be particularly reminiscient of the Sovereign himself. The same goes for the white light inside.

[White Haven]

The light, no. The articulated fingers bent down from above to form the ribs of the shrine? Yeah, I saw the Sovereign influence there.

[Tolya]

Oh, but they could be poles extending from the ground up. I tried being subtly sarcastic, but the hell with it.

Stark, there is no good reason to believe that the geth don't worship the Sovereign. Yes, the geth themselves don't mention it, but their language is incomprehensible.

You are just nitpicking. And justifying this by finding a hole in shitty presentation which just adds to the overall confusion.

[Stark]

Stark, there is no good reason to believe that the geth don't worship the Sovereign.

You lose. Proving a negative is retarded. We DON'T KNOW ABOUT GETH POLITICS. That's the end of the evidence. I believe someone SAYS they worship the reapers, but like I said there's no reason at all to think they've been fully briefed regarding the plan (soldiers generally aren't). You're just demanding we all let you force the plot to go in a certain direction based on no evidence because Bioware says so. Indeed both can be true - they can 'worship the reapers' without knowing jack shit about them or agreeing with their motives beyond 'kill all the people'.

Remember when someone posted Bioware's paper-thin explanation for why Saren needed his ridiculous plan? It's actually kinda funny that it's clear they designed the levels then linked them together with a plot afterward.

Hey Haven where's that shrine? I don't remember encountering antyhing like that. Do you mean the giant glowy ball with the wierd pillars by it? That was a new-build at Feros, right? So it could be a post-Saren takeover artifact and a symptom of whatever he's using to control them (ie, flashing Sovereign and saying 'yep we're going to kill all the humans, are you in')?

[Tolya]

I believe someone SAYS they worship the reapers, but like I said there's no reason at all to think they've been fully briefed regarding the plan (soldiers generally aren't).

Oh yes, I bet Saren himself WASNT fully briefed on the plan he is carrying out for Sovereign. Because those are his words. That's what he said, on Virmire: Geth worship Sovereign as God and that the deity is insulted because it sees geth as tools".

Saw that scene today when I was playing it through for the second time.

[Darth Ruinus]

Tali also says it, and unless she learned about the Reapers from somewhere else, she probably gained this information from the Geth memory core she extracted.