Gundam 00 - Second Season.

[Dendrobius]

You've misread him. Before the "power rating" came out, everybody thought that Meisters were just average pilots relying heavily to completely on their Gundams to win. Now that it's been made clear that Aheads are not bad at all, the Meisters' performances in retrospect is much more impressive than at first glance; they have an edge with their Gundams, but skill comes into it as well.

[pj1351]

You've misread him. Before the "power rating" came out, everybody thought that Meisters were just average pilots relying heavily to completely on their Gundams to win. Now that it's been made clear that Aheads are not bad at all, the Meisters' performances in retrospect is much more impressive than at first glance; they have an edge with their Gundams, but skill comes into it as well.

D'oh! Yup, I totally misunderstood, though I would still dispute Ypoknons's "just not Ali or Graham good"... I mean, although he seems to have faster reflexes than usual (as demonstrated when he fights personally), Ali pretty much only ever has clear advantage when he resorts to cheap tactics, like shooting Johann and Setsuna before engaging them in mobile suit combat, and Graham entering the fight fresh still barely got a draw against an exhausted Setsuna piloting the Exia that had just came out of Trans-Am.

[Ford Prefect]

Yet at the same time we have demonstrated acts of skill which easily put them well above the norm. Ali was utterly schooling Setsuna in their first Moralian fight, and only barely lost in their second one. Graham got into point blank range in his first encounter with Setsuna pretty much effortlessly, surpassed Asura, completed neutered Lockon on two seperate occassions and towards the beginning of season 2 actually blocked beam rifle shots coming towards his back with his beam sabers.

[Ypoknons]

D'oh! Yup, I totally misunderstood, though I would still dispute Ypoknons's "just not Ali or Graham good"... I mean, although he seems to have faster reflexes than usual (as demonstrated when he fights personally), Ali pretty much only ever has clear advantage when he resorts to cheap tactics, like shooting Johann and Setsuna before engaging them in mobile suit combat, and Graham entering the fight fresh still barely got a draw against an exhausted Setsuna piloting the Exia that had just came out of Trans-Am.

Thank you, Dendrobius. I need to work on my wording.

With regards to Ali and Graham's skills: Graham took on Throne Eins in his Flag, knocking Johann's beam saber out of his hand and using it against him. Remember, a Flag blew up from one shot from Dynames' pistol. Same goes for Ali in his Encat: the power disparency between GN suits and prior suits is huge. The fact that they managed to avoid getting hit is already something special; actually hurting the Gundams is another level entirely. Furthermore, Ali was doing very well against 00 and Seravee combined in S2, and the 00 is a bloody TDS suit.

[Ford Prefect]

That said, the vanilla 00 is not particularly more impressive than the other Gundams, and it's likely that the Arche was on a similar level. However, it was still two against one and Ali was dominating that fight. At the end of the day though, the most skilled of the Meisters was Lockon 1.0 or the Al/Hal combo. Lockon was outright beating Ali until Ali picked up on Neil's blindspot, and Al/Hal was completely wrecked and managed to beat Sergei and Soma simultaneously, and Sergei is supposed to be the best pilot in the series, at least according the Mizushima.

[pj1351]

Yet at the same time we have demonstrated acts of skill which easily put them well above the norm.

To clarify my position, I would not dispute that those two are "well above the norm", only idea that they set the benchmark even again the Meisters.

Ali was utterly schooling Setsuna in their first Moralian fight,

S1, late ep 06 and early ep 07: Setsuna had just finished off 9 enemy suits in 19 seconds (it is unknown how many suits he had defeated before that, but at least four suits can be seen on the ground behind him as he accelerates towards the first of the nine he proceeds to destroy). Seconds later Ali makes his entrance, shooting at Exia from the side. After some missed shots while the Exia simply tried to back away, Ali starts tracking the Exia before ramming past (that was IMHO definitely Setsuna's worst showing, as Ali's career would have been cut brutally short if Setsuna just had the presence of mind to simply cross Exia's beam sabers in front of him a moment before Ali rammed him, rather than meekly backing away while only weaving left and right a little). After that Setsuna was too busy having flashbacks of his childhood to fight effectively.

and only barely lost in their second one.

Setsuna had another of his flashbacks just before the fight started, and was fighting while angry and yelling questions at Ali. Hardly good conditions for him to be fighting effectively.

Graham got into point blank range in his first encounter with Setsuna pretty much effortlessly

Are you referring to S1 ep 02, Where Setsuna went over the Flag transforming and dropping down on him, telegraphed his attack by raising the GN Sword straight overhead for a downward slash, next yelling out angrily "don't touch me" before waving Graham off with the Exia's left arm?

completed neutered Lockon on two seperate occassions

I'm not sure whether a full specs comparison of Graham's Flag Custom and normal Flag suits exist, but even in S1 ep 04 (nevermind further down the track, when further modifications could have been made) the Flag Custom was apparently capable of twice the straight line speed of a normal Flag.

[Ford Prefect]

Are you referring to S1 ep 02, Where Setsuna went over the Flag transforming and dropping down on him, telegraphed his attack by raising the GN Sword straight overhead for a downward slash, next yelling out angrily "don't touch me" before waving Graham off with the Exia's left arm?

Yeah, I am. Getting right up inside a Gundam's guard in a stock Flag is impressive. It's actually one of the more impressive showings int he series, by virtue of it not being a custom unit. Only Sergei versus Setsuna has a larger performance gap.

I'm not sure whether a full specs comparison of Graham's Flag Custom and normal Flag suits exist, but even in S1 ep 04 (nevermind further down the track, when further modifications could have been made) the Flag Custom was apparently capable of twice the straight line speed of a normal Flag.

I am aware that Graham had the best (and most dangerous to the pilot) suit in the world before the UN got the GN-Xs, but there's still a large gap in general performance between the Black Flag and any given Gundam.

[pj1351]

completed neutered Lockon on two seperate occassions

I'm not sure whether a full specs comparison of Graham's Flag Custom and normal Flag suits exist, but even in S1 ep 04 (nevermind further down the track, when further modifications could have been made) the Flag Custom was apparently capable of twice the straight line speed of a normal Flag.

Geh, posted too soon.

S1 ep 12, Lockon's dialogue just before his fight with Graham finished implies that he may have been treating the Flag Custom as just a differently painted Flag ("I won't lose to a single Flag!"), rather than a unit with significantly improved specs, which would lead him to underestimate what it's capable of (in addition to the difference that Graham's skills and experience would make).

S1 ep 15, Lockon was utterly exhausted by 15 hours of constant fighting (readily apparent from the look on his face), outright commenting that his trigger finger is numb, completely missing at least 2 consecutive shots even when Graham was flying straight towards him without any left/right movement.

and towards the beginning of season 2 actually blocked beam rifle shots coming towards his back with his beam sabers

Sorry, I do seem to recall seeing something like that, but which episode was it again?

Remember, a Flag blew up from one shot from Dynames' pistol.

Watch S1 ep 03, normally the Dynames' pistols aren't all that powerful, so it's likely that single shot Flag kill in S1 ep 15 was some sort of an overcharged shot. Also, Graham's Flag Custom (as noted in S1 ep 04) has an anti-beam coating.

Same goes for Ali in his Encat: the power disparency between GN suits and prior suits is huge.

From what info I can gather, Ali's Enact is no more a standard model of Enact, any more than the Flag Custom is a standard model of Flag.

Furthermore, Ali was doing very well against 00 and Seravee combined in S2, and the 00 is a bloody TDS suit.

That said, the vanilla 00 is not particularly more impressive than the other Gundams, and it's likely that the Arche was on a similar level. However, it was still two against one and Ali was dominating that fight.

That fight started off with Ali pounding on 00 & Seravee with souped up Fangs. Besides the Fangs themselves indicating at least a certain level of automation, shortly after we also see the Arche suddenly stop, turn, then dodge a long ranged shot, all without any audio or visual cues... Despite the fact that the audience is linked to his audio during that entire sequence, and an image of the rescuing Gundams only pop up inside the cockpit long after Ali was already backing off.

Yeah, I am. Getting right up inside a Gundam's guard in a stock Flag is impressive. It's actually one of the more impressive showings int he series, by virtue of it not being a custom unit. Only Sergei versus Setsuna has a larger performance gap.

I thought that particular scene spoke more about Setsuna's relative lack of actual mobile suit combat experience than any praise for Graham. First Setsuna allowed himself to be shocked by the Flag's mid-air transformation (a Flag pilot in a later episode, I believe in S1 ep 15, reveals with his reaction that it's something unusual), then commited himself to making a hugely telegraphed swing with the GN Sword almost straight downwards, which in mid-air meant that the sword's own momentum puts him in a bad position for recovery (on the ground, he could have very quickly pivot to recover), he then merely tried to angrily bat Graham away instead of using the same movement to initiate some sort of counter-attack.

[Ypoknons]

First Setsuna allowed himself to be shocked by the Flag's mid-air transformation (a Flag pilot in a later episode, I believe in S1 ep 15, reveals with his reaction that it's something unusual).

Actually if you mount the supplementry material that move is unique - its called the Graham special. Not everyone can do it. Joshua and Howard just copied and mastered it after Graham.

That fight started off with Ali pounding on 00 & Seravee with souped up Fangs. Besides the Fangs themselves indicating at least a certain level of automation, shortly after we also see the Arche suddenly stop, turn, then dodge a long ranged shot, all without any audio or visual cues... Despite the fact that the audience is linked to his audio during that entire sequence, and an image of the rescuing Gundams only pop up inside the cockpit long after Ali was already backing off.

But that in that fight, we see Ali outreacting Tieria with his own hidden beam saber before Tieria could strike, even though Tieria had almost 2 seconds extra. Holding off two suits in melee isn't easy either, leaving no openings. Also, your assumption that we're linked to Ali's audio is also flawed: the scene was Tieria screaming, then Ali raising his sword and saying "I'm going to blow you to kingdom come." That seems more like a God perspective to me.

[Ypoknons]

Fruthermore, in 00P Fon speculates that the Flag Custom actually scarifices armor for speed and agility, and that is definately possible since the Flag was already a new design, close to the best the Union could put out. Just because its a custom doesn't mean they can just pull advances out of thin air. As for "beam coating," how how could you show that it is actually useful?

[avatarxprime]

First Setsuna allowed himself to be shocked by the Flag's mid-air transformation (a Flag pilot in a later episode, I believe in S1 ep 15, reveals with his reaction that it's something unusual).

Actually if you mount the supplementry material that move is unique - its called the Graham special. Not everyone can do it. Joshua and Howard just copied and mastered it after Graham.

Indeed, Graham's ability to transform his Flag during combat was considered a completely unique move/ability in the 00 universe. Before the Graham Special no one had been able to get a suit to transform while moving and no one would expect them too. That's one of the reasons that those guys in S1 Ep2 were so surprised when Kyrios transformed and Lockon was surprised when when Graham did the same.

Fruthermore, in 00P Fon speculates that the Flag Custom actually scarifices armor for speed and agility, and that is definately possible since the Flag was already a new design, close to the best the Union could put out. Just because its a custom doesn't mean they can just pull advances out of thin air. As for "beam coating," how how could you show that it is actually useful?

I'd probably site the anti-beam particles. We know they have the technology to create a cloud that has the affect of decreasing the effectiveness of beam weapons. The anti-beam coating was based on Prof. Eifman's research of the Gundams and he was a sufficiently acknowledged genius that he figured out Innovation (this is just my personal guess at the reason he was killed) and Trans-Am before he died without ever getting his hands on a GN drive.

Also upon rewatching S1 Ep12, Graham manages to block Dynames' GN Pistol shots with his defense rod. The anti-beam coating had to have some degree of effectiveness for that thing to not just fall apart after a shot or two. It should be noted that Dynames' weapons were not fully powered during that sequence.

S1 ep 12, Lockon's dialogue just before his fight with Graham finished implies that he may have been treating the Flag Custom as just a differently painted Flag ("I won't lose to a single Flag!"), rather than a unit with significantly improved specs, which would lead him to underestimate what it's capable of (in addition to the difference that Graham's skills and experience would make).

Also, Lockon did manage to score several direct hits with his GN Pistol and block Graham's attacks with his beam saber (although he was disappointed in himself for needing to resort to melee combat), while not in full combat mode. After countering Graham's attacks and making him back off he specifically tells Haro to stop GN particle dispersion and direct them to the weapons. It's possible he would have killed Graham when he fired the GN Pistol (as seen against Joshua)right then and there if he wasn't on standby.

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry, I do seem to recall seeing something like that, but which episode was it again?

Episode 3 or 4 of season 2, I believe.

[Ypoknons]

I'd probably site the anti-beam particles. We know they have the technology to create a cloud that has the affect of decreasing the effectiveness of beam weapons. The anti-beam coating was based on Prof. Eifman's research of the Gundams and he was a sufficiently acknowledged genius that he figured out Innovation (this is just my personal guess at the reason he was killed) and Trans-Am before he died without ever getting his hands on a GN drive.

That's very hard to prove at what stage Eifman theorized/developed the anti-beam technology and whether it was applied to the Flag. It could also be that the anti-beam field in S2 and the so called anti-beam coating on the Flag Custom are unrelated technologies, and it could either, both, or none of these which was developed by Eifman.

[avatarxprime]

That's very hard to prove at what stage Eifman theorized/developed the anti-beam technology and whether it was applied to the Flag. It could also be that the anti-beam field in S2 and the so called anti-beam coating on the Flag Custom are unrelated technologies, and it could either, both, or none of these which was developed by Eifman.

Well your question was as to the effectiveness of the anti-beam coating so it really doesn't matter when Eifman developed the anti-beam coating. In the second part of that response I also brought up an example from Ep 12 where the anti-beam coated Flag Custom was able to resist beam shots from Dynames with the only effect on the defense rod being that it was steaming (probably the coating ablating). Although as I noted Dynames' weapons were not at their full power it still goes to show the effectiveness of the anti-beam tech when before beams would go right through enemy mobile suits.

However, if you really want to know about when all this anti-beam stuff would have first been developed 00V offers some information. I haven't actually read it myself, but LoweGear over at AnimeSuki Forums offers a summary of the important parts concerning beam weapon technology.

The only hint of pre-Celestial Being beam weapons on the anime was the quick application of Anti-Beam Coating on the Custom Flag.

However, the HG Flag manual and the Shell Flag profile from 00V goes into more detail into beam weapon technology. The former states that the plasma blade is a byproduct of beam saber research, and the latter pretty much confirms that the three countries were into beam weapon technology (there were even rumors that some Flags were already armed with beam weapons). Then you have the HG Ali's Enact, which explains that particular design's enlarged headcrest as a larger solar energy reciever to prepare for the inclusion of beam weaponry.

[VF5SS]

So for those keep score at home, the new 1/100 HG Seravee comes with six beam saber holding hands but only two beam sabers. So to recap, the Robot Tamashii comes with six beam saber holding hands but only two beam sabers. The HCM Pro Seravee comes with four hands and four sabers. And if you buy both the HG Seravee and Seraphim you will only get two sabers from the Seraphim. So none of the Seravee figures can do MECHA SHIVA out of the box.

So when we last left our heroes, Ribbonz was SHOT IN THE FUCKING FACE. No wait that was a doombot. Prince Ali shoots Regene in the chest. We continue with the less than stellar battle. Nothing can stop 00-Raiser is it one-shots battleships. Ribbonz has some kind of lunar orbital death cannon which he uses to kill most of the A-Laws fleet. Apparently this this uses entire GN Tau drives as a power cell and is mounted on a large asteroid resembling Angel Halo. The cannon itself is mounted on a huge monorail that encircles the asteroid. The army of Brings and Devines pilot mass produced legless things, which all equipped with TRANS-AM thanks to Billy. And those clones are doing the thing they do best, die by the hundreds as they kamikaze the Pltolemy. The Ptolemy lands on the Asteroid and Lasse takes the 0 Gundam out for a spin as Automatons close in. Ali ends up fighting Cherudium. The episode ends with Tieria finding Ribbonz in the main Veda room.

Patrick didn't die.

[Dendrobius]

This episode confirms that splitting up a full 52 episode series into 2 seasons is a terrible, terrible idea.

Code Geass S1 was awesome, S2 jumped the shark, then went back and sodomized it for good measure.
00 S1 was pretty darn good, S2's pacing was way off at the start, and now it just looks rushed. *sigh* All that promise, thrown away. Sunrise, you suck.

[scythewielder]

This episode confirms that splitting up a full 52 episode series into 2 seasons is a terrible, terrible idea.

Not commercially though, which is what really matters at the end of the day.

Code Geass S1 was awesome, S2 jumped the shark, then went back and sodomized it for good measure.
00 S1 was pretty darn good, S2's pacing was way off at the start, and now it just looks rushed. *sigh* All that promise, thrown away. Sunrise, you suck.

This is all largely true, though I'm still a little bit more forgiving...a lot of the rushed crap they did in CG S2 was boring or just pissed me off at the time but I managed to like the ending, somehow, which is a lot more than what I could say about SEED Destiny, where the ending was totally unwatchable and lacking any entertainment value.

I've enjoyed a lot of 00 S2, mostly because of the great action sequences, even if several recent episodes have resorted to rushing things more and more with disappointing ways to resolve certain subplots or cheap plot twists like the seemingly mindless clone army (wouldn't it be more effective to have less kamikazes and more capable clone pilots?). I just hope they don't give us a "go watch the upcoming movie / ova" ending since that would leave things on a pretty poor note.

[Commander 598]

This is all largely true, though I'm still a little bit more forgiving...a lot of the rushed crap they did in CG S2 was boring or just pissed me off at the time but I managed to like the ending, somehow, which is a lot more than what I could say about SEED Destiny, where the ending was totally unwatchable and lacking any entertainment value.

It's because things actually happened in R2's final episode...like actually putting effort into the combat choreography and animation for the first time in half the series and actually doing something with characters that have essentially done nothing but be part of the background for large sections of the show. Still terribly cocked up by it's terrible story at that point though, the "wedding photo" just serves to highlight it given that half of the characters in it have never even heard of each other.

00S2's problems are mostly character related, with air and space only battles making for fairly boring combat scenes, at least in the context of how they're done here, and it now seems to be heading into bad writing territory though you could probably tell that several episodes ago. It can't possibly get as bad as GSD or R2 though...

[Ford Prefect]

The Ptolemy lands on the Asteroid and Lasse takes the 0 Gundam out for a spin as Automatons close in.

This is just what I like to hear.

EDIT: As an aside, last night I dreamt that Lyle cut Mario's head in half using one of the Cherudium's axe-pistols.

[VF5SS]

This is just what I like to hear.

Don't get too excited. The scene lasted barely longer than the one in last week's preview. In regards to the comparison between Season 1 and Season 2, this post from a random tripfiend at 4chan sums it up quite well

My 'ranty' stage has passed into a state of what I would call 'weary surprise'.

How do I put this....OK. Have you ever gone to a bar on Ladies Night with a few friends? You never really meet any good men there but the booze is pretty good, and you know you're going to have a good time because hey--- it's familiar, and there's booze.

But suddenly some incredibly hot motherfucker taps you on the shoulder and asks you to dance. The next 4 or so hours are spent in a dizzy whirl of expensive alcohol, pheromones and interesting conversation. By the time you're past your 6th jaegerbomb the only person more excited about possible violation would be Yazan.

Imagine that as 00 S1.

The space between 00 S1 and S2 is the moment when you leave the bar with the hot motherfucker up until the point where he pulls up at his door. You know, the expectation phase. You can almost taste the awesome.

00 S2 is the point where you walk into the guy's house, all ready to pull your clothes off and go at it....And you're confronted with 3 raccoon furry suits, a wall of commissioned anthropomorphic snail-on-possum art, a sexy Smurfette cosplay outfit, and a box of dildos modeled on fantasy animal cocks. You slowly turn around to ask the guy "WTF" and he's already completely ass naked except for a garter belt and sporting a 1" dick in close proximity to a tattoo of Spongebob in a diaper.

00 S2 what is this I don't even

[Ford Prefect]

While season 2 is inferior to season 1, and while the extended metaphor is amusing (lol Yazan), it's not quite as implausibly awful as that would imply. It is, after all, miles better than SEED ever was.

[avatarxprime]

I really don't care for Billy anymore. Here's hoping Graham shows up and knocks some sense into him. Also, the kamikaze clones make no sense what-so-ever. With the way they are being used wouldn't GN Cruise Missiles make more sense, it's not like they don't have the technology? Hopefully the sub will explain that particular tactic.

Also, those new things covering Cherudim's GN Drive in place of his shield bits are large gun bits.

Patrick is fighting a battle where Gundams are not the enemy. This does not bode well for him.

[VF5SS]

Maybe I should check out the SEED movies to get a better grip on this shit I never watched. Honestly guys, my biggest disappointed is with how copying other Gundam shows (mostly Zeta it seems) has negatively affected the show. Everything feels like its all going through the motions. Seriously, why is Ali even here anymore? Or Hilling or Revive? It took them 23 episodes to wipe out A-Laws and somehow it feels like Celestial Being has accomplished nothing.

[Ypoknons]

EDIT: As an aside, last night I dreamt that Lyle cut Mario's head in half using one of the Cherudium's axe-pistols.

Last night I dreamt I had won a pile of MGs from a raffle, and two VF-25s (Alto's and Ozama's). Then I got on a Saturn rocket to get from Hong Kong to New York in 2 hours, but crash landed in New Jersey. Then I realized I forgot my MG so I had to go back to HK and come back again... Actually, I like your dream better.

[pj1351]

Damn it, and I thought they were finally getting their act together with S2 after episode 20, but it looks like S2 is going back into a nose dive. Now I wonder if the only hope is a 3rd season, or if that would only make things worse.