Iraq War turns six

[Gandalf]

Six years ago today, the Iraq War started.

There's some ninety thousand dead Iraqi civilians, comparatively few coalition casualties and not a lot accomplished.

Thoughts?

[Mr Bean]

Six years ago today, the Iraq War started.

There's some ninety thousand dead Iraqi civilians, comparatively few coalition casualties and not a lot accomplished.

Thoughts?

Ninety thousand dead Iraqi civilians is an extreme low-ball. The 2007 ORB studies(Based of Lancent methodology) and the Lancet's study itself showed numbers in the 500k+ range. The WHO pegs the figure at around 150k and Iraq body count(Only deaths of people with names and reported in the media) at around 90k. The difference being the Iraq body count is based solely of media reports. The WHO organization is based off Iraq goverment records(Who shows up floating in the river which is rarely reported) plus the official media count and the Lancent metholody is the same statiscial method we use in Darfur, A-Stain, Somalia and a varient of it was used in Rwanada to determine the body count there. In all other countries but Iraq, the Lancent method is the gold standard. And Lancent says 500k. The official confirmed only say 150k. 90k is an extreme low-ball figure.

[Darth Yoshi]

Even, the fact that the vast majority of these casualties took place after Bush declared hostilities over is damning. I only hope that 100 years from now people will look back on this as the idiocy it was.

[Alyeska]

Fat chance. There are still a vocal number of people who claim Vietnam was a good idea and we should never have pulled out.

[FSTargetDrone]

Even, the fact that the vast majority of these casualties took place after Bush declared hostilities over is damning. I only hope that 100 years from now people will look back on this as the idiocy it was.

After 100 years, the people who set this madness in motion will be long dead. It needs to be dealt with now.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Even, the fact that the vast majority of these casualties took place after Bush declared hostilities over is damning. I only hope that 100 years from now people will look back on this as the idiocy it was.

It will be looked on at worst as the equivalent of the Spanish-American War.

[MKSheppard]

It will be looked on at worst as the equivalent of the Spanish-American War.

So does this mean that we get Ray Odinero or Dave Petraeus as POTUS in 2012?

[Pelranius]

It will be looked on at worst as the equivalent of the Spanish-American War.

So does this mean that we get Ray Odinero or Dave Petraeus as POTUS in 2012?

For that analogy to work, you'd want someone lower on the pecking order. I imagine that General Petraeus would still be pretty busy at work in 2012, anyways.

[Sea Skimmer]

For that analogy to work, you'd want someone lower on the pecking order. I imagine that General Petraeus would still be pretty busy at work in 2012, anyways.

That would really depend on if he decides to accept a job in the Pentagon (that he will be offered something big is a near given) when his tenor at CENTCOM is finished, something by no means certain. So far he’s denied any political ambition… but you pretty much have to do that while in the service or else you risk being a repeat of MacArthur. Any way about it, he already four star and he only has five years (counting this year I think) before he’d hit mandatory retirement. Lots of time left for a run.

[Force Lord]

The Iraq War is probably one of the most stupidest wars the U.S. has ever fought. And for what? Why Bush decided to pick a fight with a comparitively weak nation that could never be a threat to the U.S.? For oil? For God, as Bush later claimed? For democracy? If those 500k plus deaths are any indication, then the justifications run hollow.

Fuck you Bush. Fuck you for wasting thousands of American lives (including from Puerto Rico which is a de facto colony of the U.S.), hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and ruining the lives of many others in prosecuting this unjustified war. You brought shame on America's name, even more than any U.S. president before you. Even Reagan would be disappointed. If there were a Hell, then you will go there sir, no questions asked.

Greetings from Puerto Rico, shoe-licker.

[MKSheppard]

If there were a Hell, then you will go there sir, no questions asked.

Actually, Bush bought Democracy to hell, a most horrible prospect

[Force Lord]

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh. I needed to say it. It just pains me to see that my island , being a unincorporated territory under the control of Congress (in other words, a colony), has to fight in U.S. wars even if it doesn't want to. The fact is that we have no real backbone anymore. Back at 1898 we thought that the U.S. would give us freedom and prosperity. It was the 1950's before any prosperity came to the island, but when it came to freedom, the U.S. gave us autonomy, but not sovereignity. Fast foward to 2009: poverty afflicts more than 50% of the population (aproximately 4,000,000 people), our government shamelessly pays itself tens of thousands of dollars to keep the politicians happy, and there has been no consensus on how a future Puerto Rico should be. Our referendums have come to nothing, upholding the status quo. A lot of Puertoricans, unable to find jobs here, try their luck in the U.S. (the Jones Act of 1917 gave us U.S. citizenship, but second-class).

If you wonder why the U.S. keeps on with its military adventurism, Puerto Rico is the answer. They think "Oh, we succeded here, we can do it again!" Our colonial status is a stain on America's honor, yet the gringos either don't know or don't care.

[Force Lord]

Actually, Bush bought Democracy to hell, a most horrible prospect

Then Bush dragged Democracy to his grave? Sure, he's not dead, but it's still frustrating.

[Force Lord]

Uh, Shep? It's brought, not bought, even thought the prospect of Bush buying Democracy is chilling indeed. Just being a grammar Nazi.

[The Spartan]

And for what? Why Bush decided to pick a fight with a comparitively weak nation that could never be a threat to the U.S.? For oil? For God, as Bush later claimed? For democracy?

To prove he was better than daddy:

One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief. ... My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade, if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency.

[Force Lord]

To prove he was better than daddy:

One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief. ... My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade, if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency.

So it was all macho dickwaving then? If this isn't epic stupidity, I don't know what it is.

[The Spartan]

So it was all macho dickwaving then? If this isn't epic stupidity, I don't know what it is.

I wouldn't even call it macho. It was childish I-wanna-outshine-my-daddy-because-I'm-a-complete-failure-at-everything bullshit.

[Beowulf]

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh. I needed to say it. It just pains me to see that my island , being a unincorporated territory under the control of Congress (in other words, a colony), has to fight in U.S. wars even if it doesn't want to. The fact is that we have no real backbone anymore. Back at 1898 we thought that the U.S. would give us freedom and prosperity. It was the 1950's before any prosperity came to the island, but when it came to freedom, the U.S. gave us autonomy, but not sovereignity. Fast foward to 2009: poverty afflicts more than 50% of the population (aproximately 4,000,000 people), our government shamelessly pays itself tens of thousands of dollars to keep the politicians happy, and there has been no consensus on how a future Puerto Rico should be. Our referendums have come to nothing, upholding the status quo. A lot of Puertoricans, unable to find jobs here, try their luck in the U.S. (the Jones Act of 1917 gave us U.S. citizenship, but second-class).

If you wonder why the U.S. keeps on with its military adventurism, Puerto Rico is the answer. They think "Oh, we succeded here, we can do it again!" Our colonial status is a stain on America's honor, yet the gringos either don't know or don't care.

Puerto Rico has the population to petition Congress for statehood. That it's unincorporated is entirely the decision of the Puerto Ricans. No one forces young men to join the US military to fight in US wars. No one in Puerto Rico has a second class citizenship. US citizenship is US citizenship. The only people who don't have citizenship but are US nationals are in American Samoa.

You seem to have a severe victimization complex. "Waaa! It's all the fault of the big bad gringos! Nothings our fault!"

[Force Lord]

Puerto Rico has the population to petition Congress for statehood. That it's unincorporated is entirely the decision of the Puerto Ricans. No one forces young men to join the US military to fight in US wars. No one in Puerto Rico has a second class citizenship. US citizenship is US citizenship. The only people who don't have citizenship but are US nationals are in American Samoa.

You seem to have a severe victimization complex. "Waaa! It's all the fault of the big bad gringos! Nothings our fault!"

If we have U.S. citizenship, why we can't vote for your POTUS in Puerto Rico? Oh wait, we're not a state yet.

I must have sounded too harsh then. I have nothing against the United States. I am simply pessimistic of the chances we have here of solving our status issue.

Besides, I doubt Congress will accept an island whose population is not from CONUS. Wouldn't those anti-immigration guys stand for the annexation of a mostly Spanish-speaking state?

Most referendums ended up with the Commonwealth status winning, with the exception of 1998 when 50.1% of the vote was won by the "None of the above" option. And the Commonwealth status is now recognized as obsolete.

And severe victimization complex? Please. Most of us in the island suffer from an inferiority complex.

Yes, I know it's Wiki, but I had no time to look somewhere else.

[Force Lord]

Can someone split this discussion? Sorry for the thread hijack.

[Sea Skimmer]

If we have U.S. citizenship, why we can't vote for your POTUS in Puerto Rico? Oh wait, we're not a state yet.

Which means you don’t pay federal taxes and yet get over 4 billion dollars of dollars in federal funding every year. Sweet deal hun?

Congress might well reject Puerto Rico becoming a state, but not because racism is that powerful, its because Puerto Rico would be by far the poorest state with a per capita GPD of only 2/5ths that of the rest the US, and would begin draining away even immensely more federal money. That would all be money congress needs to stimulate the US economy with more luxury yatch docks.

I really loved it though, when after decades of protests, we finally shut down the bombing range on Vieques, and then naturally also shut down the base that supported it. But that base pumped millions into the local economy, so naturally.. people protested it being closed.

[Lonestar]

If we have U.S. citizenship, why we can't vote for your POTUS in Puerto Rico? Oh wait, we're not a state yet.

I must have sounded too harsh then. I have nothing against the United States. I am simply pessimistic of the chances we have here of solving our status issue.

Besides, I doubt Congress will accept an island whose population is not from CONUS. Wouldn't those anti-immigration guys stand for the annexation of a mostly Spanish-speaking state?

Hmm...pay Federal taxes or continue to give out free money...hmmm... what to do oh what to do.

Most referendums ended up with the Commonwealth status winning, with the exception of 1998 when 50.1% of the vote was won by the "None of the above" option. And the Commonwealth status is now recognized as obsolete.

That 50.1% of your Island's population couldn't un-ass itself speaks volumes.

And severe victimization complex? Please. Most of us in the island suffer from an inferiority complex.

I have never met a Puerto Rican with an inferiority complex. And I met quite a few when I was in the service.

[Knife]

I have never met a Puerto Rican with an inferiority complex. And I met quite a few when I was in the service.

To be fair, how many of those were ethnically Puerto Ricans and from New York or LA, versus how many from he home islands? I've known a lot of 'puerto rican's' too and with huge egos and massive self esteem, but not many from Puerto Rico itself.

Force Lords silly temper tantrum aside.

[Force Lord]

Ah, you believe that. Thank you for enlightening me.
And I seriously didn't expect what you said about P.R. soldiers, Lonestar. Guess the local newspapers have been bad for my judgement.

[Force Lord]

And, of course, I live near an avenue named in honor of the Sixty-Fifth Infantry Regiment. Even MacArthur praised it!