nBSG Cylons Etc.(Spoilers)

[Havok]

So in the time line we have...

Kobol Humans
Kobol Cylons (Presumably having gone from Mechanical to Organic on Kobol before their departure)
13th Tribe/Colony of Kobol Organic Cylons
13th Tribe/Colony of Kobol Mechanical Cylons
12 Colonies of Kobol Organic Cylons
12 Colonies of Kobol Mechanical Cylons

Now the 13 OCs came from Kobol to Earth 1 4000 years before nBSG. First, they used Resurrection to pro-create. Then they developed the ability to pro-create through sex and abandon Resurrection. They then proceeded to create the 13 MCs. They use the 13 MCs as slave labor which eventually drives the 13 MCs to revolt and wipe out, presumably both OCs and MCs, with the exception of 5 OCs, in a nuclear attack.

The 5 surviving 13 OCs travel for 2000 years to the 12 Colonies, going first to Kobol, not knowing that the humans have left Kobol to establish the 12 Colonies.

The 5 OCs leave Earth 1 at approximately the same time as the Kobol Humans arrive at the 12 Colonies.
The 12 Colony Humans, in about the same time frame as it took the 13 OCs to create the 13 MCs, create the 12 MCs. They use the 12 MCs as slave labor which eventually drives the revolt.
During this revolt, the 5 13 OCs arrive and convince the 12 MCs to cease hostilities against the humans. To do this, they show them how to make 13th Colony Organic style Cylons. Immediately the 12 OCs enslave the 12 MCs that created them.

The Humans originated on Kobol, along with the 13 OCs. However, due to the fact that both the OCs and Humans were able to leave Kobol on their own indicates that they obviously did not destroy each other as, presumably, the 13 OCs and 13 MCs did. It, of course, does not rule out a major war between the two groups that decimated Kobol and forced both to leave at different times (The OCs forced to leave due to losing the conflict, and later the Humans forced to leave do to lingering effects on the planet from the conflict), however AFAIK, no mention of a war between the two races of Kobol is ever made.

This series of events leaves me with several questions and thoughts.

1. If the 13 OCs left Kobol and arrived on Earth 1 of their own volition, then how did the "cycle" start on Kobol?

2. If there was a conflict between the 13 OCs and the Kobol Humans that forced them to leave Kobol, then why didn't they, machines and presumed victims of the "cycle", not remember the mistakes that were made and create their own MCs and then turn around and enslave them? 2000 years is not an amount of time that would account for the loss of that type and magnitude of knowledge in the slightest. Especially taking into account that the historians in question are advanced computers with highly advanced technology.

3. When the 5 13 OCs arrived in the midst of the war between the 12 Colonies and the 12 MCs and then proceeded to give them the technology to create the 12 OCs, why didn't the 5 13 OCs inform the newly created 12 OCs that enslaving the 12 MCs would lead to their destruction, just as enslaving their own MCs had led to theirs?

4. If there was a conflict with the Kobol OCs that forced them to leave Kobol, both things that signify a very advanced civilization (the ability to create advanced A.I. and interstellar flight) why didn't the Kobol Humans have records of what happened? They were sufficiently advanced to keep and have accurate records, even over the course of 4000 years.

5. How did the space faring Kobol Humans lose their highly advanced technology once they landed on the 12 Colonies, only to rediscover it in 2000 years?

7. Head Six and Head Baltar strongly imply that the "cycle" began on Kobol, however if there was no great conflict on Kobol, then how did the conflict start there? Based on what we know, violence between Humans and Cylons actually only happened once, as the first instance was actually Cylon on Cylon violence. Two different types of occurrences is hardly a "cycle".

8. Is the "cycle" simply considered to be Human vs Cylon violence? Or is it perhaps just the inability of organic beings and machine intelligence to co-exist, which is more closely supported by what we see and know. (The Organic Cylons are basically humans with some extra abilities and all OCs view MCs as lesser beings to be enslaved)

9. Head Six and Head Baltar are obviously intelligent enough to know what a cycle is, so with that in mind and taking their word that there actually is a true cycle of violence it is reasonable to assume that the "cycle" has been repeating itself far before Kobol.

10. With the above in mind, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that Head Baltar, Head Six and "God" are highly advanced AIs/Organics or a combination of both, from a previous incarnation of the struggle between organics and machines. That explains their interest in it, their cold hard logic and their compassion towards both sides of the conflict.

11. If the Kobol Humans created the Kobol Cylons, and there was a conflict that forced the Cylons to leave Kobol, then why would the 13 OCs need to warn the Kobol Humans not to do something they already did? This indicates that there was indeed no conflict between the Kobol Humans and Kobol Cylons. It may also indicate that the Kobol Cylons were created as Organics and never went through the machine phase.

12. If the time line is accurate, then both the Kobol Humans and Cylons have very short memories and have poor, or no proper processes for recording history. If that is true, then Lee Adama's decision to abandon all technology, was indeed the correct thing to do as, if they did immediately start rebuilding their culture/civilization, in 2000 years they would have forgotten what had come before and would have created machine slaves again, thus actually carrying on the "cycle". Whatever that may actually mean.

These are some of my thoughts and questions on the time line and events that has been wrapped up. Questions, comments, flames are all welcome.

P.S. Thanks to Bounty for letting me bounce some of these ideas off him.

[tezunegari]

1. If the Earth-skinjobs [13 OCs] left Kobol and arrived on Earth 1 of their own volition, then how did the "cycle" start on Kobol?

I think it was the same as the show finale. A bunch of refugees landed on Kobol and founded a new civilization based on simple agriculture without heavy tech. It would explain the "it happened before and will happen again, again, again" prophecy.

2. If there was a conflict between the Kobol-skinjobs [13 OCs] and the Kobol Humans that forced them to leave Kobol, then why didn't they, machines and presumed victims of the "cycle", not remember the mistakes that were made and create their own MCs and then turn around and enslave them? 2000 years is not an amount of time that would account for the loss of that type and magnitude of knowledge in the slightest. Especially taking into account that the historians in question are advanced computers with highly advanced technology.

There might not have been a conflict or war between the Kobol-humans and the Kobol-cylons. It could have been the conflict between their religious believes or oppression because of their believes that prompted the Kobol-cylons (who believe in a single god) to leave the community of the other tribes (who believe in a Pantheon of gods). Did the thirteenth tribe leave prior to the other twelve or at the same time or later?

3. When the 5 Earth-skinjobs[13 OCs] arrived in the midst of the war between the 12 Colonies and the Colonial-toasters [12 MCs] and then proceeded to give them the technology to create the Colonial-skinjobs [12 OCs], why didn't the 5 Earth-skinjobs[13 OCs] inform the newly created Colonial-skinjobs [12 OCs] that enslaving the Colonial-toasters [12 MCs] would lead to their destruction, just as enslaving their own MCs had led to theirs?

Was Earth nuked by Chrometoasters? Either I missed that tidbit or it was never explained what had happened to Earth in detail, just that it was nuked. So it might be that the Earth-skinjobs [13 OCs] didn't have that knowledge of the cycle.

4. If there was a conflict with the Kobol-skinjobs [Kobol OCs] that forced them to leave Kobol, both things that signify a very advanced civilization (the ability to create advanced A.I. and interstellar flight) why didn't the Kobol Humans have records of what happened? They were sufficiently advanced to keep and have accurate records, even over the course of 4000 years.

If there has been a war with the Kobol-skinjobs/toasters than it might be a repetition of the cycle. Or they decided, like the current cycle has shown, to live a simple life without technology
[...] -> arrival -> forget -> create robots -> rebellion -> refugee fleet -> arrival ->[...]

5. How did the space faring Kobol Humans lose their highly advanced technology once they landed on the 12 Colonies, only to rediscover it in 2000 years?

Just to name a few possible reasons:

• waring among each other
• maybe crashlanding
• religious fanatics ("Technology is evil" and the whole stuff)
• bacteria/viruses of the new planets killing the majority of the colonists

7. Head Six and Head Baltar strongly imply that the "cycle" began on Kobol, however if there was no great conflict on Kobol, then how did the conflict start there? Based on what we know, violence between Humans and Cylons actually only happened once, as the first instance was actually Cylon on Cylon violence. Two different types of occurrences is hardly a "cycle".

I missed the part where that was implied... I take it was in the finale?

8. Is the "cycle" simply considered to be Human vs Cylon violence? Or is it perhaps just the inability of organic beings and machine intelligence to co-exist, which is more closely supported by what we see and know. (The Organic Cylons are basically humans with some extra abilities and all OCs view MCs as lesser beings to be enslaved)

I think it refers to the fact that technology WILL BE MISUSED without thinking anbout possible consequences.
Creation of robots for dangerous jobs is good.
Not changing how you treat them when they show sentience is bad and will/might lead to their uprising.

9. Head Six and Head Baltar are obviously intelligent enough to know what a cycle is, so with that in mind and taking their word that there actually is a true cycle of violence it is reasonable to assume that the "cycle" has been repeating itself far before Kobol.

I agree. Though the show has not really resolved that issue, I believe that was the intend.
After all there is no limit to the "it happened before" utterings in the scrolls. Though the scrolls might be misinterpreted, misstranslated etc. so that the "it happened ONCE before" turned into "it happened before".

10. With the above in mind, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that Head Baltar, Head Six and "God" are highly advanced AIs/Organics or a combination of both, from a previous incarnation of the struggle between organics and machines. That explains their interest in it, their cold hard logic and their compassion towards both sides of the conflict.

I think so too. Maybe they are from the very first cycle.

11. If the Kobol Humans created the Kobol Cylons, and there was a conflict that forced the Cylons to leave Kobol, then why would the Earth-skinjobs [13 OCs] need to warn the Kobol Humans not to do something they already did? This indicates that there was indeed no conflict between the Kobol Humans and Kobol Cylons. It may also indicate that the Kobol Cylons were created as Organics and never went through the machine phase.

Maybe there was no war against the Kobol humans but a secession from the 12 tribes. The Kobol cylons or what was the thirteenth tribe then just left Kobol. Unfortunately we have no information about the "evolution" of Kobol-cylons at all. (Maybe the refugees of an earlier cycle landed with their cylon allies on Kobol forming the thirteen tribes and after a while the cylons wished to leave)

12. If the time line is accurate, then both the Kobol Humans and Cylons have very short memories and have poor, or no proper processes for recording history. If that is true, then Lee Adama's decision to abandon all technology, was indeed the correct thing to do as, if they did immediately start rebuilding their culture/civilization, in 2000 years they would have forgotten what had come before and would have created machine slaves again, thus actually carrying on the "cycle". Whatever that may actually mean.

Maybe there was a religious uprising that destroyed historical recordings because they were heretic (comparable to what the Taliban did with those Stone Bhuddas). Or maybe they did have recordings but took them as a myth... The scrolls of Pythia might be one of those. And like the modern bible it might have went through Transcription errors, translation errors or even fraudulent editing to ensure a power-base of the priests.

Now my eyes are burning and my fingers hurt from all that typing.

[LMSx]

I think this is implicitly brought up by Havok and tezune, but it seems worth stating outright that Head 6 in the Daybreak coda compared the current Earth/New York City climate of "commercialism and decadence" to, among others, Kobol. I imagine that slightly disqualifies strongly religious motivations for whatever split happened at Kobol between the 12 and 13th.

[SCVN 2812]

In regards to the loss of technology. This was discussed at length in the Daybreak 2 thread. Having advanced technology in your possession and having the means to maintain and replicate it are two entirely different things. Someone quoted Bad Astronomy very well, the paraphrase being: in the aftermath of a nuclear war, asteroid impact or some other great calamity, we have the ability to raid and salvage from our existing infrastructure, one example being stealing batteries from Walmart to keep things going. That's great but what happens when the batteries are used up if the factories that make batteries were destroyed and anyone who survived the cataclysm actually knows how to make a battery both lacks the tools and is spending all of his time just surviving?

Having an interstellar space ship fleet is not a "get out of dark age" free card. You can preserve your knowledge for as long as the computers are still operable, even start transcribing information in the computers into hard copy. The only problem is, could 35,000 people make hard copies of every last thing a person needs to know to build a steam engine, let alone an intergalactic starship before the computers themselves failed? Even if they could, how long does it take to refine farming and tool making to the extent there actually is excess population that isn't involved in immediate survival activities for 18 hours of the day? We don't know how many people got off Kobol, who had what in the way of survival skills let alone technical knowledge, what plans they had in place for surviving and rebuilding civilization when they got where they were going, if they even knew where they were going and what infrastructure reconstruction capability they had aboard their ships.

I'd say going from the clothes on your back and what you can salvage from a starship to actually being able to build a battlestar is damned impressive in 2,000 years.

I'm also very intrigued by the plot thread left hanging as to just who nuked Earth 1.0 and what happened to them. I have to wonder if it were a revenge killing not unlike the Caprican Cylons' fears of a human retaliatory strike or the theoretical revenge strike should the Cylons have failed to completely destroy the Twelve Colonies navy before destroying the colonies. Perhaps the 13th tribe Cylons were destroyed by someone they had destroyed before.

[Havok]

That is all great, but we have two separate groups leaving Kobol 2000 years apart. They both have interstellar travel capabilities, and since it seems that both leavings were somewhat voluntary, there is no reason to believe they didn't bring along infrastructure to build their new worlds. There is also no mention, either by 13 OCs or Colonial Humans that there was any conflict on Kobol that drove them both off planet to their new homes. The only mention of anything, is in reference to the "cycle".

As for who got off Kobol, we know that first, highly advanced A.I.s left, then the Humans left and had enough of a population for all 12 Colonies to be occupied, unless we are assuming that they all went to one planet, then spread out over 2000 years, which in itself indicates that they were able to keep and maintain their technology.
If the Humans did land on all 12 planets at once, they did so with somewhat of an infrastructure plan as they have dedicated planets for specific things and I doubt an entire planet converted to farming only in the 50 years since the Colonies signed the treaty with each other.

And as we know, going with just the clothes on you back takes 150,000 years for Colonial Humans, with more advanced technology/knowledge than the Kobol Humans had, to reach just our level of civilization. That is another reason to assume that the Kobol Humans had plans and infrastructure ready to go on the Colonies.

I also highly doubt the total number of Humans to leave Kobol was any where close to being as low as 35,000. There is no way that only 35,000 people left Kobol and repopulated 12 planets in less than 2000 years.

Also, the Mechanical Cylons nuked Earth 1. That's a pretty big point of the story and why the Final Five are even there. In fact it is the ENTIRE point of the story. The Cylons on Earth 1/The 13th Colony created their own Mechanical Cylon slaves, who then rebelled. That is part of the "cycle" of violence that drives the story as the 5 created the 12 OCs in an attempt to stop what happened to them from happening to the Colonies.

[Havok]

1. If the Earth-skinjobs [13 OCs] left Kobol and arrived on Earth 1 of their own volition, then how did the "cycle" start on Kobol?

I think it was the same as the show finale. A bunch of refugees landed on Kobol and founded a new civilization based on simple agriculture without heavy tech. It would explain the "it happened before and will happen again, again, again" prophecy.

Except that "prophecy" is in reference to violence specifically. Not the maybe exodus afterward.

2. If there was a conflict between the Kobol-skinjobs [13 OCs] and the Kobol Humans that forced them to leave Kobol, then why didn't they, machines and presumed victims of the "cycle", not remember the mistakes that were made and create their own MCs and then turn around and enslave them? 2000 years is not an amount of time that would account for the loss of that type and magnitude of knowledge in the slightest. Especially taking into account that the historians in question are advanced computers with highly advanced technology.

There might not have been a conflict or war between the Kobol-humans and the Kobol-cylons. It could have been the conflict between their religious believes or oppression because of their believes that prompted the Kobol-cylons (who believe in a single god) to leave the community of the other tribes (who believe in a Pantheon of gods). Did the thirteenth tribe leave prior to the other twelve or at the same time or later?

As I said, the 13th Tribe/Kobol Cylons left Kobol 2000 years before the Kobol Humans did. A religious schism seems like a reasonable explanation for the split since there is no mention of a war of some sort and seeing as how the Cylons, once they reached Earth 1, created Mechanical Cylons and enslaved them, either had no knowledge of the possibility of something like that happening or had ridiculously horrible memories and record keeping skills.

3. When the 5 Earth-skinjobs[13 OCs] arrived in the midst of the war between the 12 Colonies and the Colonial-toasters [12 MCs] and then proceeded to give them the technology to create the Colonial-skinjobs [12 OCs], why didn't the 5 Earth-skinjobs[13 OCs] inform the newly created Colonial-skinjobs [12 OCs] that enslaving the Colonial-toasters [12 MCs] would lead to their destruction, just as enslaving their own MCs had led to theirs?

Was Earth nuked by Chrometoasters? Either I missed that tidbit or it was never explained what had happened to Earth in detail, just that it was nuked. So it might be that the Earth-skinjobs [13 OCs] didn't have that knowledge of the cycle.

Yes the 13th Tribe Mechanical Cylons nuked the Organic Cylons. There may have been retaliatory strikes from the OCs, but that isn't discussed or specified AFAIK. They basically wiped each other out with the exception of The Final Five.

4. If there was a conflict with the Kobol-skinjobs [Kobol OCs] that forced them to leave Kobol, both things that signify a very advanced civilization (the ability to create advanced A.I. and interstellar flight) why didn't the Kobol Humans have records of what happened? They were sufficiently advanced to keep and have accurate records, even over the course of 4000 years.

If there has been a war with the Kobol-skinjobs/toasters than it might be a repetition of the cycle. Or they decided, like the current cycle has shown, to live a simple life without technology
[...] -> arrival -> forget -> create robots -> rebellion -> refugee fleet -> arrival ->[...]

Except we have no knowledge of a conflict on Kobol. Especially not of the same magnitude as happened on Earth 1 and The 12 Colonies.

5. How did the space faring Kobol Humans lose their highly advanced technology once they landed on the 12 Colonies, only to rediscover it in 2000 years?

Just to name a few possible reasons:

• waring among each other
• maybe crashlanding
• religious fanatics ("Technology is evil" and the whole stuff)
• bacteria/viruses of the new planets killing the majority of the colonists

Any of those could apply if they had all been on one planet, but all of them effecting all 12 Colonies? I don't think so.

7. Head Six and Head Baltar strongly imply that the "cycle" began on Kobol, however if there was no great conflict on Kobol, then how did the conflict start there? Based on what we know, violence between Humans and Cylons actually only happened once, as the first instance was actually Cylon on Cylon violence. Two different types of occurrences is hardly a "cycle".

I missed the part where that was implied... I take it was in the finale?

Yup.

8. Is the "cycle" simply considered to be Human vs Cylon violence? Or is it perhaps just the inability of organic beings and machine intelligence to co-exist, which is more closely supported by what we see and know. (The Organic Cylons are basically humans with some extra abilities and all OCs view MCs as lesser beings to be enslaved)

I think it refers to the fact that technology WILL BE MISUSED without thinking anbout possible consequences.
Creation of robots for dangerous jobs is good.
Not changing how you treat them when they show sentience is bad and will/might lead to their uprising.

Except as far as we know, the Kobol Humans didn't mistreat or misuse their Cylons, as they seemingly freely moved to Earth 1 and proceeded to make their own slave Cylons. If they had been slaves and misused themselves, why did they turn around and do the exact same thing? Keep in mind that these are MACHINES, advanced A.I.s. There is zero reason why they would not remember something like their own enslavement, mistreatment, rebellion and a resulting war with their masters.

9. Head Six and Head Baltar are obviously intelligent enough to know what a cycle is, so with that in mind and taking their word that there actually is a true cycle of violence it is reasonable to assume that the "cycle" has been repeating itself far before Kobol.

I agree. Though the show has not really resolved that issue, I believe that was the intend.
After all there is no limit to the "it happened before" utterings in the scrolls. Though the scrolls might be misinterpreted, misstranslated etc. so that the "it happened ONCE before" turned into "it happened before".

That makes no sense with what we know though. Why would a race capable of creating advanced Artificial Intelligence, COMPUTERS, and FTL travel, keep scrolls? And even if they were some sort of ceremonial thing, why are they so garbled as to no longer be able to convey the correct message. Hell, we know how specific battles went down 2000 years ago, you would think a GLOBAL conflict might get more than some garbled "hope you get this right" message.

10. With the above in mind, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that Head Baltar, Head Six and "God" are highly advanced AIs/Organics or a combination of both, from a previous incarnation of the struggle between organics and machines. That explains their interest in it, their cold hard logic and their compassion towards both sides of the conflict.

I think so too. Maybe they are from the very first cycle.

That is my stance. The brand new Viper was probably made of whatever Starbuck was made of and probably disappeared at the same time she did. The lead A.I./Biolgical/Combo doesn't like being called "God". The "Angels" Head Six and Head Baltar have a vested interest in the outcome and they have obviously been around before to witness it, and quite possible are the same beings that warned the Final Five on Earth 1. I would say they have been there from the beginning and may be one of the parties to begin the "Cycle".

11. If the Kobol Humans created the Kobol Cylons, and there was a conflict that forced the Cylons to leave Kobol, then why would the Earth-skinjobs [13 OCs] need to warn the Kobol Humans not to do something they already did? This indicates that there was indeed no conflict between the Kobol Humans and Kobol Cylons. It may also indicate that the Kobol Cylons were created as Organics and never went through the machine phase.

Maybe there was no war against the Kobol humans but a secession from the 12 tribes. The Kobol cylons or what was the thirteenth tribe then just left Kobol. Unfortunately we have no information about the "evolution" of Kobol-cylons at all. (Maybe the refugees of an earlier cycle landed with their cylon allies on Kobol forming the thirteen tribes and after a while the cylons wished to leave)

I'm going to assume that Humans didn't originate on Kobol even though it is stated that they did. It doesn't make sense that the "cycle" started on Earth 1, and it seems clear to me that it didn't start on Kobol. Also with the lack of evidence for a conflict on Kobol, I would think that the "cycle" refers just to not being able to live together and not necessarily meaning they are going to nuke each other.

12. If the time line is accurate, then both the Kobol Humans and Cylons have very short memories and have poor, or no proper processes for recording history. If that is true, then Lee Adama's decision to abandon all technology, was indeed the correct thing to do as, if they did immediately start rebuilding their culture/civilization, in 2000 years they would have forgotten what had come before and would have created machine slaves again, thus actually carrying on the "cycle". Whatever that may actually mean.

Maybe there was a religious uprising that destroyed historical recordings because they were heretic (comparable to what the Taliban did with those Stone Bhuddas). Or maybe they did have recordings but took them as a myth... The scrolls of Pythia might be one of those. And like the modern bible it might have went through Transcription errors, translation errors or even fraudulent editing to ensure a power-base of the priests.

That also makes no sense. The religious texts are the only way anyone even remembers Kobol and Earth so obviously it wasn't any sort of religious thing to remove the memory of the places. Why would you destroy the actual documents, just to rewrite them in garbled highly interpretable manor.

It would be like the equivalent of use forgetting The Roman Empire, if they had computers and we also had computers. It is just not possible. Hell, it is not possible with just paper!

There is just no possible, logically explainable way, that two highly advanced groups such as the Kobol Cylons and the Kobol Humans forgot something as massive as a planet wide conflict and the lessons from it. The only explanation is that there was no conflict and everything was hunky fucking doory on Kobol, or as you said it was a religious split between mono and poly theistic beliefs.

Now my eyes are burning and my fingers hurt from all that typing.

Toughen up son. This is Sci Fi debating!!

[Havok]

Continuing...

13. The Kobol Humans had to develop FTLs after the Cylons left, but before they themselves departed Kobol. Other wise, the Final Five and the Kobol Humans would have arrived at the 12 Colony planets at roughly the same time, give or take some centuries.

[JediToren]

3. When the 5 13 OCs arrived in the midst of the war between the 12 Colonies and the 12 MCs and then proceeded to give them the technology to create the 12 OCs, why didn't the 5 13 OCs inform the newly created 12 OCs that enslaving the 12 MCs would lead to their destruction, just as enslaving their own MCs had led to theirs?

I'm guessing enslaving the Centurions (old and new) was Cavil's idea, being that he is an asshole, and he didn't do it until after boxing the Final Five.

5. How did the space faring Kobol Humans lose their highly advanced technology once they landed on the 12 Colonies, only to rediscover it in 2000 years?

Kobol was pretty devastated. When the Fleet visited it in Season 1 and 2, only the faintest traces of civilization remained. Adama stated that a disaster appeared to have happened there but the planet had since recovered. Compare that to Earth 1, which was devastated around the same time. I'm guessing that they had their own rag tag fleet (or just a galleon as stated in the sacred scrolls) that was enough to get them to where they were going (The 12 colonies were pretty close to Kobol after all) but that without the tech base to maintain it, they lost that tech and it didn't recover it until centuries later.

7. Head Six and Head Baltar strongly imply that the "cycle" began on Kobol, however if there was no great conflict on Kobol, then how did the conflict start there? Based on what we know, violence between Humans and Cylons actually only happened once, as the first instance was actually Cylon on Cylon violence. Two different types of occurrences is hardly a "cycle".

Prior to the last 3 minutes of Daybreak Part 2, it seemed apparent that the cycle began here on our Earth in the future (from our perspective) and that an exodus to Kobol followed. Over the millennia that followed, the cycle repeated itself at least three times, destroying the civilizations on the 13th Colony, Kobol, and eventually the Twelve Colonies. Eventually, the children of Earth, both human and Cylon, returned home to Earth together to live in peace, the cycle of violence and destruction having finally ended.
I figured that the exodus of the 13th tribe to Earth was similar to the end of the first Cylon war in the 12 Colonies, and the Cylons simply went off into space never to be heard from again.

Of course, that's not what ended up happening, but I agree that for the colonials to believe that these events are part of an endless cycle that happens again and again throughout eternity, it would have had to have happened a few times when that line of the sacred scrolls was written.

10. With the above in mind, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that Head Baltar, Head Six and "God" are highly advanced AIs/Organics or a combination of both, from a previous incarnation of the struggle between organics and machines. That explains their interest in it, their cold hard logic and their compassion towards both sides of the conflict.

Yes, I had figured that the One True God was something like that (an advanced intelligence from the real Earth), and that the Lords of Kobol were also advanced AI/Organics that had survived Earth and founded Kobol and attempted to lead humans and prevent the tragedy of Earth from repeating itself. They were presumably destroyed in the fall of Kobol and only the One True God remained to try again. Perhaps the Lords of Kobol decided to go for a separate but equal approach and sent the 13th tribe away. It certainly fits with Tigh's idea that pure Cylon and pure human civilizations don't work and that the only way forward is together.

[Ender]

Something to consider

1) By any basic understanding, even if humans and cylons could breed, Hera should be as sterile as a mule. Yet she was not expected to be, and the implication from the end is that she wasn't.

2) They traced back to her via mitochondrial DNA, which would have been pure cylon, having come from her mother. Given how mitochondrial DNA works, her being the ancestral Eve doesn't mean she is the mother of us all, just that she is "related to all members in our original set via the transitive-closure of the mother-of relation."

Given these facts, it is a reasonable postulate that the "humans" are in fact fully cylon, and the reason we are trapped in such an implausible cycle is that God/Iblis/Ship of Lights hardcoded it into them. They are trapped in the technology cycle because they are technology themselves.

[Ender]

Yes, I had figured that the One True God was something like that (an advanced intelligence from the real Earth), and that the Lords of Kobol were also advanced AI/Organics that had survived Earth and founded Kobol and attempted to lead humans and prevent the tragedy of Earth from repeating itself. They were presumably destroyed in the fall of Kobol and only the One True God remained to try again. Perhaps the Lords of Kobol decided to go for a separate but equal approach and sent the 13th tribe away. It certainly fits with Tigh's idea that pure Cylon and pure human civilizations don't work and that the only way forward is together.

A deleted scene from when they were on Kobol has the holy woman talking about how devastation came to Kobol when the 13th god grew jealous of the other 12 and set out to destroy them and set itself up as the only god. Take that for what it's worth.

[Thanas]

Something to consider

1) By any basic understanding, even if humans and cylons could breed, Hera should be as sterile as a mule. Yet she was not expected to be, and the implication from the end is that she wasn't.

2) They traced back to her via mitochondrial DNA, which would have been pure cylon, having come from her mother. Given how mitochondrial DNA works, her being the ancestral Eve doesn't mean she is the mother of us all, just that she is "related to all members in our original set via the transitive-closure of the mother-of relation."

Given these facts, it is a reasonable postulate that the "humans" are in fact fully cylon, and the reason we are trapped in such an implausible cycle is that God/Iblis/Ship of Lights hardcoded it into them. They are trapped in the technology cycle because they are technology themselves.

I am sorry, are you saying that the humans in Galactica were all Cylons, or that today humans are fully cylons?

[Junghalli]

1) By any basic understanding, even if humans and cylons could breed, Hera should be as sterile as a mule. Yet she was not expected to be, and the implication from the end is that she wasn't.

Are there any indications that Cylons are actually all that different from us genetically? They appear to have somewhat enhanced strength, and increased resistance to disease (their blood cures cancer), and possibly reduced/altered fertility (the whole "can't reproduce without love" thing). Other than that they seem to be basically just cyborged human clones.

[Havok]

Something to consider

1) By any basic understanding, even if humans and cylons could breed, Hera should be as sterile as a mule. Yet she was not expected to be, and the implication from the end is that she wasn't.

2) They traced back to her via mitochondrial DNA, which would have been pure cylon, having come from her mother. Given how mitochondrial DNA works, her being the ancestral Eve doesn't mean she is the mother of us all, just that she is "related to all members in our original set via the transitive-closure of the mother-of relation."

Given these facts, it is a reasonable postulate that the "humans" are in fact fully cylon, and the reason we are trapped in such an implausible cycle is that God/Iblis/Ship of Lights hardcoded it into them. They are trapped in the technology cycle because they are technology themselves.

I am sorry, are you saying that the humans in Galactica were all Cylons, or that today humans are fully cylons?

That we, the humans right now, are full Cylon. I came to that conclusion myself. Although the hard wiring of "technology creates technology = KILL" is interesting. One could take that premise and look on the final conversation of Head Baltar and Head Six as almost an ongoing discussion of a grand science project in morality and probability.

[Junghalli]

That we, the humans right now, are full Cylon.

Doesn't the fact that we can get cancer seem to contradict that?

And the fossil record does not support a rapid replacement of one human type with another 150K years ago, which suggests we're more indigenous Earth human than anything else. Although I guess that might depend on exactly how the critical genes worked themselves out. Or maybe the Earth humans were Cylons too - I don't really buy that they evolved completely independently.

[Ender]

I am sorry, are you saying that the humans in Galactica were all Cylons, or that today humans are fully cylons?

Both. If humans and cylons were fully distinct species, there is no way Hera should have been fertile. So for this to work, then despite the things like glowy spines and fiber-optic veins, they have to be close enough to produce viable, fertile offspring. Additionally, like us in the future/present, she has organelles that are fully cylon; yet there are no problems with this. It also keeps with the theme of "all this has happened before, and will happen again" and helps explain why the spines and data jacks weren't dead giveaways - the baselines have them too, they just don't utilize them or we don't notice them.


Christ, I'm getting weirded out using the word "fertile" to talk about a character that was 2 years old in the series.

That we, the humans right now, are full Cylon. I came to that conclusion myself. Although the hard wiring of "technology creates technology = KILL" is interesting. One could take that premise and look on the final conversation of Head Baltar and Head Six as almost an ongoing discussion of a grand science project in morality and probability.

Correct, it adds a new layer of depth to the ending.

[Ender]

That we, the humans right now, are full Cylon.

Doesn't the fact that we can get cancer seem to contradict that?

Cancer is a natural phenomena that results from cells behaving like cells. It doesn't really say much of anything.

And the fossil record does not support a rapid replacement of one human type with another 150K years ago, which suggests we're more indigenous Earth human than anything else. Although I guess that might depend on exactly how the critical genes worked themselves out. Or maybe the Earth humans were Cylons too - I don't really buy that they evolved completely independently.

1) Prove the fossil record in nBSG is the same as ours. We can expect basic scientific principles to hold, but not history.
2) Given the extreme unlikelyhood of fully compatible humans being found like that - something the show remarked upon - the implication is that their presence is the result of God/Iblis/Ship of Lights. That kind of chance is too low to assign to anything other then an active agency.

[Junghalli]

If humans and cylons were fully distinct species, there is no way Hera should have been fertile. So for this to work, then despite the things like glowy spines and fiber-optic veins, they have to be close enough to produce viable, fertile offspring.

That stuff sounds like it's more likely some kind of cybernetic implants, which shouldn't effect genetic compatibility.

Cancer is a natural phenomena that results from cells behaving like cells. It doesn't really say much of anything.

The Cylons apparently have defenses against cancer that humans don't, as Cylon blood can be used as a somewhat effective cancer treatment. Of course, it's possible it isn't completely effective. Or, going with your theory, maybe they just didn't incorporate that feature into the "Earth model" for some reason.

How does your theory account for Homo Erectus and the like? Or are you assuming they don't exist in that universe because they're not mentioned? Maybe the fossils are fakes?

1) Prove the fossil record in nBSG is the same as ours. We can expect basic scientific principles to hold, but not history.

Obviously I can't do that, but I personally would prefer to integrate the show into real history as well as I can. I see no evidence against the Colonials being assimilated into the natives, and it's the explanation that fits best with the fossil record. If you assume the Earth natives were Cylons put there by ... somebody ... it could still work with your theory.

2) Given the extreme unlikelyhood of fully compatible humans being found like that - something the show remarked upon - the implication is that their presence is the result of God/Iblis/Ship of Lights. That kind of chance is too low to assign to anything other then an active agency.

Very true, and per your theory, does not make the previous objection a crippling problem.

[Thanas]

I am sorry, are you saying that the humans in Galactica were all Cylons, or that today humans are fully cylons?

Both. If humans and cylons were fully distinct species, there is no way Hera should have been fertile. So for this to work, then despite the things like glowy spines and fiber-optic veins, they have to be close enough to produce viable, fertile offspring. Additionally, like us in the future/present, she has organelles that are fully cylon; yet there are no problems with this. It also keeps with the theme of "all this has happened before, and will happen again" and helps explain why the spines and data jacks weren't dead giveaways - the baselines have them too, they just don't utilize them or we don't notice them.

Actually, wouldn't the best explanation for that simply be that the final five, when creating the skinjobs, used genetic material that was derived or the same as their own? Thus the glowing spines and data jacks can still be Cylon things, but would not affect genetic material.

And we already know the F5 do share the same genetic material as the rest of the crew does, being both decended from Kobol.

[Sarevok]

This is all too confusing.

What happened to old fashioned robot uprising with war bots and space fighters ?

[Havok]

This is all too confusing.

What happened to old fashioned robot uprising with war bots and space fighters ?

HOW DARE YOU SIR! OLD Battlestar Galactica is waiting for you right over there. Go. Shoo.

THIS IS GRIMDARK!!

[Sarevok]

Never watched the old one actually. It is just that it is hard to accept the whole Cylon deal when the massive shadow of writers hand forcing impossible events to happen is in front of your eyes. Things were simpler in earlier seasons when Galactica just a lone survivor fleeing from Cylons. I wish the series remained like that instead of shoehorning every possible important thing in the universe to one random ship full of random people.

[Havok]

Never watched the old one actually. It is just that it is hard to accept the whole Cylon deal when the massive shadow of writers hand forcing impossible events to happen is in front of your eyes. Things were simpler in earlier seasons when Galactica just a lone survivor fleeing from Cylons. I wish the series remained like that instead of shoehorning every possible important thing in the universe to one random ship full of random people.

I actually liked that myself. Most of it has decent in universe explanations. (Cavil forcing most of it) It is just that they didn't think through the plots enough. The time frames for certain events are either way to short or way too long or just plain don't make sense. I can understand that though as they were going by the seat of their pants the whole time and didn't start the series with an overreaching 5 year story arc. I'm not even sure if they thought they would get past the mini-series/pilot.

[Anguirus]

^ I'm 95% sure they did not start writing season 1 until after the miniseries aired. In fact, I know that they cast Richard Hatch even after he saw the miniseries and disliked it (he liked Season 1 though, and the script/character they gave him).

The podcast DID reveal that as early as season 1 Eick and Moore agreed that the last shot of the last episode would be Head Six in her red dress walking through Times Square.

[Junghalli]

Incidentally, the idea that different species can never mate and produce fertile offspring is something of a misconception. In big cat hybrids like ligers/tigons the males are usually sterile but the females are often fertile.

Reference.

Unusually for hybrid animals, female big cat hybrids are usually fertile, though the males are most often sterile. The same is seen in many small cat hybrids e.g. Asian Leopard Cat x domestic cat where the F1 (first generation) males are sterile. Due to conservation efforts, deliberate hybridization is banned in most zoos. It still happens in private collections, behavioural/reproduction studies institutes and as part of attempts to breed domestic big cats. A loophole in some laws makes it illegal to own lions, tigers or leopards, but legal to own hybrids! Although ligers and tigons are the best known hybrids, lions are more closely related to jaguars and leopards than to tigers.

Wolves, dogs, and coyotes can all have fertile offspring with each other too.

[Havok]

Continuing....

14. Where the hell did the "song" come from? The 13th Tribe Cylons knew it, as did Starbuck and Hera, but who put it there in the first place. The coordinates it translate out to are to OUR Earth, not to Earth 1. So who put it in the Final Five? They didn't know where OUR Earth was at all, only their own.