Salt Water on Mars

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Zor
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Salt Water on Mars

Post by Zor »

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March 17, 2009
Salty, liquid water has been detected on a leg of the Mars Phoenix Lander and therefore could be present at other locations on the planet, according to analysis by a group of mission scientists led by a University of Michigan professor. This is the first time liquid water has been detected and photographed outside Earth.

"A large number of independent physical and thermo dynamical evidence shows that saline water may actually be common on Mars," said Nilton Renno, a professor at the University of Michigan, Department of Atmospheric, Oceanic and Space Sciences, and a co-investigator on the Phoenix mission.

"Liquid water is an essential ingredient for life. This discovery has important implications to many areas of planetary exploration, including the habitability of Mars."

Previously, scientists believed that water existed on Mars only as ice or water vapor because of the planet's low temperature and atmospheric pressure. They thought that ice in the Red Planet's current climate could sublimate, or vaporize, but they didn't think it could melt.

This analysis shows how that assumption may be incorrect. Temperature fluctuation in the arctic region of Mars where Phoenix landed and salts in the soil could create pockets of water too salty to freeze in the climate of the landing site, Renno said.

Photos of one of the lander's legs show droplets that grew during the polar summer. Based on the temperature of the leg and the presence of large amounts of "perchlorate" salts detected in the soil, scientists believe the droplets were most likely salty liquid water and mud that splashed on the spacecraft when it touched down. The lander was guided down by rockets whose exhaust melted the top layer of ice below a thin sheet of soil.

Some of the mud droplets that splashed on the lander's leg appear to have grown by absorbing water from the atmosphere, Renno said. Images suggest that some of the droplets darkened, then moved and merged - physical evidence that they were liquid.

The wet chemistry lab on Phoenix found evidence of perchlorate salts, which likely include magnesium and calcium perchlorate hydrates. These compounds have freezing temperatures of about -90° Fahrenheit (-68° Celsius) and -105° Fahrenheit (-76° Celsius), respectively. The temperature at the landing site ranged from approximately -5° Fahrenheit (-21° Celsius) to -140° Fahrenheit (-96° Celsius), with a median temperature around -75° Fahrenheit (-59° Celsius). Temperatures at the landing site were warmer than this during the first months of the mission.

Thermodynamic calculations offer additional evidence that salty liquid water can exist where Phoenix landed and elsewhere on Mars. The calculations also predict a droplet growth rate that is consistent with what was observed. And they show that it is impossible for ice to sublimate from the cold ground just under the strut of the lander's leg and be deposited on a warmer strut, a hypothesis that has been suggested.

Certain bacteria on Earth can exist in extremely salty and cold conditions.

"This discovery is the result of the talent and dedication of the entire Phoenix team and NASA, whose strategy for Mars exploration and the Phoenix mission is 'follow the water,'" Renno said.
Looks like there might be bacteria on mars after all.

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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Zixinus »

I'm I the only one sick of the whole "there might be life on mars" angle? I mean, yes, there is an environment that resembles one that has bacteria on Earth. But that doesn't mean that there is bacteria on Mars. That doesn't even mean that there was bacteria on Mars.

But no, this is somehow seems like an obsessive angle for NASA. Life on Mars. Am I the only one that finds this strange and obsessive?
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Zixinus wrote:I'm I the only one sick of the whole "there might be life on mars" angle? I mean, yes, there is an environment that resembles one that has bacteria on Earth. But that doesn't mean that there is bacteria on Mars. That doesn't even mean that there was bacteria on Mars.
So the fact that something might not exist in a certain area, even when there is evidence that the conditions there for it to exist is not a reason to press on investigation into weather it actual exists. Brilliant.
But no, this is somehow seems like an obsessive angle for NASA. Life on Mars. Am I the only one that finds this strange and obsessive?
Because the discovery of extraterrestrial life, extinct or exant would be a major scientific discovery and is one of the big reasons why we are shooting probes with rovers to Mars instead of Venus or Mercury in the first place.

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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Lusankya »

Zixinus wrote:I'm I the only one sick of the whole "there might be life on mars" angle? I mean, yes, there is an environment that resembles one that has bacteria on Earth. But that doesn't mean that there is bacteria on Mars. That doesn't even mean that there was bacteria on Mars.

But no, this is somehow seems like an obsessive angle for NASA. Life on Mars. Am I the only one that finds this strange and obsessive?
It might also put a big tape over the mouth of those "Earth is fine-tuned for life!" types. Sort of. My own experience suggests that they will change their argument to "Earth is fine-tuned to our kind of life!"

It would still be a huge advance in our understanding of life, though.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Zixinus wrote:I'm I the only one sick of the whole "there might be life on mars" angle? I mean, yes, there is an environment that resembles one that has bacteria on Earth. But that doesn't mean that there is bacteria on Mars. That doesn't even mean that there was bacteria on Mars.
Like it or not, the idea of being the first to discover life on another planet is exciting and they're chasing the possibility. And don't forget space exploration is expensive; I wouldn't be surprised if the search for aliens gets publicity because it generates hype, public interest, and investments among the common man, especially where there are so many necessary things on earth to be spending money on.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Zac Naloen »

Finding life on mars would be supremely awesome, i don't think it's weird of NASA to be focusing on that aspect of mars research at all.

Imagine if they find life that was distantly related to us genetically, imagine the moment.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Solauren »

Zixinus wrote:I'm I the only one sick of the whole "there might be life on mars" angle? I mean, yes, there is an environment that resembles one that has bacteria on Earth. But that doesn't mean that there is bacteria on Mars. That doesn't even mean that there was bacteria on Mars.

But no, this is somehow seems like an obsessive angle for NASA. Life on Mars. Am I the only one that finds this strange and obsessive?
If Mars can support alien life, it could be made to support OUR life.

Simple as that.

(Sarcasm) That, and you know, the whole 'looking for easy alien chicks to bang. Zap Branagain would be proud!(/Sarcasm).
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by General Zod »

Solauren wrote: If Mars can support alien life, it could be made to support OUR life.

Simple as that.
Errr. . . no. Not necessarily. There's any number of microbial lifeforms that exist in environments we couldn't possibly hope to survive in. Unless by "our" life you mean other, similar microbes.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Tahlan »

Zor wrote:
Article wrote:
Certain bacteria on Earth can exist in extremely salty and cold conditions.
Looks like there might be bacteria on mars after all.
That's an intuitive leap the article does not make.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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So the fact that something might not exist in a certain area, even when there is evidence that the conditions there for it to exist is not a reason to press on investigation into weather it actual exists.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't look into it, but rather, that we've already looked into it. How many goddamn probes did we send again?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for it, but Jesus, is there anything other to be said about Mars other than that it probably, plausibly and theoretically might have harboured life?

I'm not against Mars exploration, but please everyone, spare us the bullshit: the odds of finding anything after when we've already shot probe after probe, is smaller and smaller. We want to explore Mars for the sake of exploring Mars? Fine. Say that. Just stop saying that "there might be life there" because we've been told that again and again. We've found none.

Can we look at another angle of Mars? Could our probes look at something other than the signs of life? Don't tell me that's the only interesting thing about Mars.
Because the discovery of extraterrestrial life, extinct or exant would be a major scientific discovery and is one of the big reasons why we are shooting probes with rovers to Mars instead of Venus or Mercury in the first place.
Great. We've looked at Mars. We've looked at it again. We've looked at it closer and closer. We're at the level that we're desperately looking for traces of microbiological life or bacteria.

At this rate, why don't we look elsewhere, like Jupiter, Venus or Io? Why aren't we sending probes there?
Imagine if they find life that was distantly related to us genetically, imagine the moment.
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Yeah, I don't think that many people outside the direct field of biology would care much. Probably most would shrug and go on with their daily lives. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if many people would have doubts.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Zixinus wrote:
So the fact that something might not exist in a certain area, even when there is evidence that the conditions there for it to exist is not a reason to press on investigation into weather it actual exists.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't look into it, but rather, that we've already looked into it. How many goddamn probes did we send again?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for it, but Jesus, is there anything other to be said about Mars other than that it probably, plausibly and theoretically might have harboured life?

I'm not against Mars exploration, but please everyone, spare us the bullshit: the odds of finding anything after when we've already shot probe after probe, is smaller and smaller. We want to explore Mars for the sake of exploring Mars? Fine. Say that. Just stop saying that "there might be life there" because we've been told that again and again. We've found none.
We've landed . . . how many experiments on Mars capable of directly detecting life? Two. Viking 1, and Viking 2. And they were fixed landers, completely incapable of moving to greener pastures. Everything else? Pathfinder/Sojourner? Nope, they were the testbed for the later Mars Exploration Rovers. The Mars Exploration Rovers? They're geologists. They don't do biochem. Mars Phoenix? Sorry, it wasn't quite geared towards searching for life either.

As for future missions, there's Mars Science Laboratory, due to launch in 2009 2011, which has some experiments capable of discerning chemistry generated by biology. Of course, the whole MSL project is plagued by enormous cost overruns and may not actually ever launch.

There's only so much we can conclude by examining Mars with orbiters, and the evidence gathered from orbit is a solid "maybe."
Can we look at another angle of Mars? Could our probes look at something other than the signs of life? Don't tell me that's the only interesting thing about Mars.
We're examining the geological history of Mars as well. Though all that really tells is is that Mars used to be really wet all over a few billion years ago, then became considerably drier. While the reason why this is so is a fascinating avenue of research by itself, it's not quite the draw that searching for life is. Especially since Mars will be the only planet we're likely to conduct sample-return and manned exploration of before the dawn of the 22nd century.
Great. We've looked at Mars. We've looked at it again. We've looked at it closer and closer. We're at the level that we're desperately looking for traces of microbiological life or bacteria.

At this rate, why don't we look elsewhere, like Jupiter, Venus or Io? Why aren't we sending probes there?
Cost. You could conceivably build four or five rovers along the lines of Spirit and Opportunity for the cost of a single mission to the outer solar system. A probe looking for life on Europa, or Titan and Enceladus costs significantly more to transport to its destination. You're also waiting years for it to get there. It has to be hardened against the hostile radiation environment surrounding the big gas giants. Furthermore, any life living on the icy moons of the outer giants are likely to be located under tens of kilometers of solid fucking ice. Drilling down through that ice presents technical hurdles we are only just beginning to solve in small-scale, and ignores the problem of how the vehicle will work once we get through all that ice.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Saying that you're fed up with NASA probes not looking at anything else but signs of microbial life shows such an incredible ignorance of the subject matter that a moon hoaxer would be proud of you, Zixinus.

They heavily publicize new discoveries relating to possibility of life existing on Mars, but that's far from the only activity the probes are doing.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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PeZook wrote:Saying that you're fed up with NASA probes not looking at anything else but signs of microbial life shows such an incredible ignorance of the subject matter that a moon hoaxer would be proud of you, Zixinus.

They heavily publicize new discoveries relating to possibility of life existing on Mars, but that's far from the only activity the probes are doing.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Even despite the cost, a probe to Pluto is halfway there. It will arrive in 2015. So certainly we're doing stuff- we're sending probes to almost every planet except Venus (because nobody cares about Venus, it sucks).

Halfway by time, that is, not distance- it's accelerating and building up speed, and/or going to gravity boost off of some planet.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Duckie wrote:Even despite the cost, a probe to Pluto is halfway there. It will arrive in 2015. So certainly we're doing stuff- we're sending probes to almost every planet except Venus (because nobody cares about Venus, it sucks).
I wish we were sending probes to Venus. "Why does Venus suck so much?" could turn out to be a very important question; at the very least, it's an interesting one.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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RedImperator wrote:
Duckie wrote:Even despite the cost, a probe to Pluto is halfway there. It will arrive in 2015. So certainly we're doing stuff- we're sending probes to almost every planet except Venus (because nobody cares about Venus, it sucks).
I wish we were sending probes to Venus. "Why does Venus suck so much?" could turn out to be a very important question; at the very least, it's an interesting one.
The problem of course would be to construct probes that could endure for any appreciable length of time in the Venusian environment and be able to do useful work. It is certain anything with delicate instrumentation is right out —such units would never survive the conditions on the surface.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Coyote »

Earth, the Sol System, is a backwater of the galaxy. We're in the middle of nowhere.

Finding life on Mars --two planets right next door to one another-- means that life, and the conditions for it, are far, far more prevalent than previously thought. Finding life on Mars, even a little amoebic booger-thing, raises the possibility that the Galaxy as a whole could be full of all sorts of life.

I think once we satisfy our curiosity about Mars, we'll see the same obsessive behavior about the moons of the Giants. Chances are good that some sort of life may be there, too.

Think about it-- if it turns out that there are three, four, five bodies in one asscrack solar system that have life on them, then the possibility exits that the whole damn Galaxy is a teeming pool of life-- which increases the chance of meeting intelligent life.

I call it fascinating, and worth the look.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by spikenigma »

if it takes $20-30 billion dollars for a manned mission to Mars, like the ESA proposition near the bottom of the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Mars_Mission

surely even with the financial crisis, if that cost was split among G8 nations evenly because they would all benefit. It would be $3.75 billion per nation, or approximately 9 days in Iraq (based on 845 billion currently spent)
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

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Well, with the money the US blew on Iraq you could've practically built a moon base already :D

Maybe not quite, but at the very least Constellation would be on schedule...
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Lord Relvenous »

Coyote wrote: I think once we satisfy our curiosity about Mars, we'll see the same obsessive behavior about the moons of the Giants. Chances are good that some sort of life may be there, too.

Think about it-- if it turns out that there are three, four, five bodies in one asscrack solar system that have life on them, then the possibility exits that the whole damn Galaxy is a teeming pool of life-- which increases the chance of meeting intelligent life.

I call it fascinating, and worth the look.
I got my money on a giant fish eating the first probe into the oceans of Europa ;) [/brevity]

Personally Zixinius, I've found the Spirit and Opportunity missions amazing outside of the reason of lookig for life. They are the (IMO) successful NASA missions, the rovers have done a huge amount of research, and techniques of control and construction used in them have been improved for use in future rovers. The fact that the rovers are still functional after all this time (far, FAR pat their epected operational life) fills me with a great deal of pride in the efforts of the NASA engineers who designed and built them. If you don't know much about them past their search for life, I'd check out this site:
Mars Exploration Rover Mission (NASA site)
It's a day by day record of what the rovers are doing, and the missions they've undertaken is quite cool.

(I don't know how much you know about the rovers, so I included the information)

But seriously, an operational lifetime expectancy of 90 days, and they're still going! 5 years later![/gushing]
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Duckie wrote:Even despite the cost, a probe to Pluto is halfway there.
Indeed. But it's only going so fast because it's intended to be a flyby mission, so we can trade off being able to stop once there for getting there as quickly as possible.
we're sending probes to almost every planet except Venus (because nobody cares about Venus, it sucks).
What? No love for ESA's Venus Express? The Europeans have a Venus orbiter which is currently active. It's even been used to search for life . . . on Earth, that is. The Japanese are also expected to launch a Venus orbiter sometime next year.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Erik von Nein »

Didn't the Russians land a probe on Venus?

Well, according to the Wiki, yes, they did. And it subsequently melted. Well, after more or less an hour. Got some good data, though.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Ilya Muromets »

Coyote wrote:Earth, the Sol System, is a backwater of the galaxy. We're in the middle of nowhere.
Er, given the immense amount of space between even the nearest stars (not counting those stars orbiting each other) wouldn't that apply to pretty much all solar systems? Even a quarter of a lightyear is still unimaginably far away as to effectively isolate any two bodies from each other.

As for the discovery, it is pretty interesting. I know such similarities might not entail that there may/is life on Mars, the discovery still has some pretty interesting ramifications about the chemical composition of the rest of the Solar system. Also, the origin of water in the Solar System has been a pretty big mystery, so any study related to water on bodies other than Earth may well be pertinent to answering that particular set of questions.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by Sarevok »

Er, given the immense amount of space between even the nearest stars (not counting those stars orbiting each other) wouldn't that apply to pretty much all solar systems? Even a quarter of a lightyear is still unimaginably far away as to effectively isolate any two bodies from each other.
Not all stellar neighborhoods are same in the galaxy. The core for example a rather exotic place. Earth in comparison is in bog standard place orbiting a mundane yellow star.
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Re: Salt Water on Mars

Post by defanatic »

Lusankya wrote:It might also put a big tape over the mouth of those "Earth is fine-tuned for life!" types. Sort of. My own experience suggests that they will change their argument to "Earth is fine-tuned to our kind of life!"
Or it might go to the "Our Solar System is fine tuned for life!". Back-pedaling is fun!

Regardless, I guess it's like lots of other scientific pursuits. You may not see the benefits now, but you can't really predict how it will help in the long run.
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