Neocon fundies encourage flaunting of OHS regs

[Surlethe]

Oh, wait. He's a Republican. He probably does disapprove.

Bin-go. While not all Republicans disapprove, that particular school of fundamentalist, neoconservative thought does. When my wife went to Camp American as a youngster, cabins were awarded points for violating OSHA standards. The cabin with the fewest points had to clean the bathrooms at 11 pm.

[Lusankya]

Oh, wait. He's a Republican. He probably does disapprove.

Bin-go. While not all Republicans disapprove, that particular school of fundamentalist, neoconservative thought does. When my wife went to Camp American as a youngster, cabins were awarded points for violating OSHA standards. The cabin with the fewest points had to clean the bathrooms at 11 pm.

Is that even legal? I mean, I guess the "randomly making the cleanest students do cleaning" is more dicky than illegal, but isn't there some kind of law against management or people of positions of authority encouraging people to break OHS laws?

[Tolya]

Bin-go. While not all Republicans disapprove, that particular school of fundamentalist, neoconservative thought does. When my wife went to Camp American as a youngster, cabins were awarded points for violating OSHA standards. The cabin with the fewest points had to clean the bathrooms at 11 pm.

What? Are you serious? You mean people were awarded for things like not-wearing-a-helmet-at-a-construction-site stuff?

So basically the more dangerous and stupid stuff you did during the day, the more points you get? What is this shit? I've heard of Camp America before, but I always thought they are religious neocon nutjobs rather than people who encourage you to physically harm yourself.

Oh and I only know what OSHA is from reading their webpage, so maybe there is something I don't know but should. Excuse me for that.

[RedImperator]

Oh and I only know what OSHA is from reading their webpage, so maybe there is something I don't know but should. Excuse me for that.

I've worked in the oil industry, and so has my father, and I can tell you OSHA regs can be a pain in the ass at times, but without them, a lot of people alive and healthy right now would be blind, deaf, or crippled, or dead, because sure as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, if the refinery managers weren't afraid of OSHA, they'd cut every corner they could find and fire anyone who refused to work in unsafe conditions. Lolbertarians hate OSHA because they're the platonic ideal of government interference in private industry, and big business conservatives hate OSHA because it cuts into their profits and they don't give a shit about working people, but I'm at a loss to explain why religious conservatives would care.

[Kanastrous]

Maybe they object to any form of authority outside their Holy Book, and flaunting OSHA regs is a fun way to display their contempt for rules that don't originate in the Torah or Gospels.

[Patrick Degan]

Maybe they object to any form of authority outside their Holy Book, and flaunting OSHA regs is a fun way to display their contempt for rules that don't originate in the Torah or Gospels.

You are not far off. Fundies consider that only God's government is legit and that the authority of man, particularly over matters of fate, life, and death, cannot take precedence.

[The Spartan]

Maybe they object to any form of authority outside their Holy Book, and flaunting OSHA regs is a fun way to display their contempt for rules that don't originate in the Torah or Gospels.

It may go beyond that, or at least be reinforced by it. But playing loose and fast or outright ignoring safety rules is hardly unique to Texas. I recall a video I had to watch as part of my mandatory training called Remembering Charlie. The short version is that a man named Charlie recounts what happened to him because of all the safety rules he flaunted. In the end he endured months of painful burn rehabilitation, lost his wife, very nearly lost his children, one of whom attempted suicide. Not to mention the numerous reconstructive surgeries.

And for what little it's worth that camp Surlethe mentioned is not in Texas, it's in Indiana. Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain that you'll find camps like that here, though I'm not aware of any that so openly and deliberately violate OSHA.

[RedImperator]

Maybe they object to any form of authority outside their Holy Book, and flaunting OSHA regs is a fun way to display their contempt for rules that don't originate in the Torah or Gospels.

I don't find this hypothesis particularly convincing. It's not like fundies chronically violate parking regulations because Deuteronomy doesn't saying anything about handicapped spaces.

[Kanastrous]

Violating parking rules leads to having to pay tickets.

Cheerfully trashing OSHA regs somewhere private where you are unlikely to get called to account or reported is a safer form of disobedience.

I don't find it improbable that these people would flaunt their contempt for civil authority more-or-less privately, in a manner unlikely to inconvenience them with a fine.

Do you really think this crowd - in general - is actually interested in paying a price for following their precious beliefs? I sure don't.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

It might be worth noting that flaunting OSHA regulations isn't the only "non-religious conservative" action done by the Camp American group, if their website is any indication. The topics for their essay contest include the second amendment and constitutional constructionism, they advertise a live machine gun demonstration, and have some sort of discussion on the importance of property rights. They might just be flaunting the regulations because it's a general American Conservative thing to do, not necessarily a Christian Conservative thing.

[Lagmonster]

Split OHS discussion from here.

[Junghalli]

Maybe they object to any form of authority outside their Holy Book, and flaunting OSHA regs is a fun way to display their contempt for rules that don't originate in the Torah or Gospels.

You are not far off. Fundies consider that only God's government is legit and that the authority of man, particularly over matters of fate, life, and death, cannot take precedence.

I think this is probably overthinking their reasons. I suspect it has very little to do with philosophy or theology and a lot more to do with simple mindless tribalism. The lolbertarians hate OSHA, and the big business types hate OSHA, so the fundies hate OSHA too because it looks like part of being a good member of the conservative tribe.

[MarshalPurnell]

I suspect that's probably overthinking things as well. Religious fundamentalist conservatives rarely have a very developed political consciousness or understanding of other ideologies. They tend to divide the world into "good people" and "godless quasi-Marxists" and frankly have no idea what libertarianism is or any conception of big business as a separate interest or political actor. I would suspect while there may be some atavistic dislike of government in all its forms, on the feeling of persecution that these groups thrive on, the most important reason for having contempt for safety regulations is a mindless sense of swaggering machismo. There's an element in American culture that tends to look favorably on improvisation and amateur "know-how" over an expert knowledge and the taking of precautions, and one can probably guess which attitude the average religious fundamentalist in America associates with being a "real man."

[CaptainChewbacca]

I just got my annual OSHA HAZWOPR (Hazardous Work Products) re-certification, and I can tell you if they didn't do what they did, I'd have probably died by now.

[Kanastrous]

Next time I need the right kind of character name for the right kind of story, I'm using Osha Hazwopper. Thanks, Cap'n Chewie.

[Darth Wong]

I suspect that's probably overthinking things as well. Religious fundamentalist conservatives rarely have a very developed political consciousness or understanding of other ideologies. They tend to divide the world into "good people" and "godless quasi-Marxists" and frankly have no idea what libertarianism is or any conception of big business as a separate interest or political actor. I would suspect while there may be some atavistic dislike of government in all its forms, on the feeling of persecution that these groups thrive on, the most important reason for having contempt for safety regulations is a mindless sense of swaggering machismo. There's an element in American culture that tends to look favorably on improvisation and amateur "know-how" over an expert knowledge and the taking of precautions, and one can probably guess which attitude the average religious fundamentalist in America associates with being a "real man."

Their position is not based on any thought at all. It is sheer tribalism; if you watch "King of the Hill", that seems to be the template for the way they think. There are the cool guys like Hank who hang out in the alley and drink and reminisce about the way things used to be, and then there are the weird freaks who have fancy edumacational degrees and stuff, and who are bad people because they keep trying to ruin Hank's life. The irony is that Hank himself is a completely self-absorbed bastard who neglects to raise his own son and whose friends range from narcissistic twit to sociopath, but he doesn't see it, and neither do they.

[RedImperator]

I just got my annual OSHA HAZWOPR (Hazardous Work Products) re-certification, and I can tell you if they didn't do what they did, I'd have probably died by now.

I can just imagine the refineries without it: "Polyethylene hazmat containers? Those are expensive! We got a shitload of steel drums, don't we? Just pour the HF in them."

[TheLostVikings]

I just got my annual OSHA HAZWOPR (Hazardous Work Products) re-certification, and I can tell you if they didn't do what they did, I'd have probably died by now.

I can just imagine the refineries without it: "Polyethylene hazmat containers? Those are expensive! We got a shitload of steel drums, don't we? Just pour the HF in them."

Reminds me of a real accident that happened at a lab where my friend works.

Some idiot though the plastic containers looked too flimsy, so he decided to use a sturdy metal bucket instead...

[TithonusSyndrome]

The irony is that Hank himself is a completely self-absorbed bastard who neglects to raise his own son and whose friends range from narcissistic twit to sociopath, but he doesn't see it, and neither do they.

Hank definitely sees that something "ain't right" about them, but the fact that he repeatedly bails them out and they all go on miserably ever after being utter losers is supposed to be some kind of a paean to friendship and community, when in fact it's just plain-old enabling. That's another problem that carries over to real life from the show.

[Zixinus]

The joke about conservatives, natural selection and laughing at OHS is yet to be made.

Seriously, I can understand creationism on some level, but hating safety regulations? I cannot believe that this level of retardation is not intentional.

Say, a guy's hand gets ripped off because there was not proper warning or training to prevent the accident. What insane logic does this not justify OHS or something similar?

[Pulp Hero]

Say, a guy's hand gets ripped off because there was not proper warning or training to prevent the accident. What insane logic does this not justify OHS or something similar?

It was his own fault. And it is better to live life as free man than have to do everything those socialists in Washington tell you.

[Zixinus]

It was his own fault. And it is better to live life as free man than have to do everything those socialists in Washington tell you.

It's his own fault that the employer didn't either properly train the kid or provide him with proper warnings about what he's doing? How is having an federal-level standardization on safety socialist? How is he free with half an arm missing? How is he less free by having to follow rules that are there for his safety?

Acknowledgements:
1. I don't know the details of the kid's case, just that he got caught in the factory line and got his arm ripped off without the employer giving a shit.
2. I know Pulp Hero isn't stating his own opinion. I'm curious about his answer regardless.

[Junghalli]

It was his own fault. And it is better to live life as free man than have to do everything those socialists in Washington tell you.

The scary thing is that really is exactly how these kind of people think.

[Broomstick]

It was his own fault. And it is better to live life as free man than have to do everything those socialists in Washington tell you.

^ I'm kinda hoping that was sarcasm, but people really should make it clear when it is.

It's his own fault that the employer didn't either properly train the kid or provide him with proper warnings about what he's doing?

Back when that accident occurred none of the above were required and in fact injured workers could have their pay docked or be brought to court for damaging the equipment. So much for the good old days....

How is having an federal-level standardization on safety socialist?

Believe it or not, there are folks who believe ANY Federal regulation is "socialist".

How is he free with half an arm missing? How is he less free by having to follow rules that are there for his safety?

It was actually pretty much his whole arm, and the tools who claim that shit are invariably those who benefit from the pain of others.

That sort of maiming used to be all too common in the 19th Century.

[Junghalli]

It was actually pretty much his whole arm, and the tools who claim that shit are invariably those who benefit from the pain of others.

I'm not so sure about that myself. If the only lolbertarian tools around were the high-level white collar types who actually benefited from lolbertarian social policies I suspect the movement would be a lot less strong than it is. One of the greatest tricks the lolbertarian movement ever pulled was to convince tons of people to basically sympathize more with the economic interests of the wealthy than their own.