Best and Worst of Battlestar Galactica

[Stark]

I've certainly been turning what I've seen over in my mind (and I can certainly see how it works much better in this way), but I'm not sure I'll be able to put aside the more 'superficial' levels to properly appreciate the actual dramatic content. I imagine this will become easier over time as the degree of irritating fan madness decreases, but I think I'm going to be stuck with the dichotomy between the iconic or mythical nature of the show and the 'grimdark' pretentious nature of the actual plot and such.

It's actually fascinating; I fucking hated this show for being massively pretentious, gasbagging bullshit with faux-depth that was just one absurdity after another - after the finale many fans hated I think I can pretty clearly see how it was 'supposed' to work the whole time. I'm just not sure I'll ever be able to see past RM thinking he's clever or relevant.

And I certainly never meant to imply that nBSG fans were less articulate than any other fanbase, which by definition are terrible.

[Thanas]

I've certainly been turning what I've seen over in my mind (and I can certainly see how it works much better in this way), but I'm not sure I'll be able to put aside the more 'superficial' levels to properly appreciate the actual dramatic content. I imagine this will become easier over time as the degree of irritating fan madness decreases, but I think I'm going to be stuck with the dichotomy between the iconic or mythical nature of the show and the 'grimdark' pretentious nature of the actual plot and such.

Yeah, that is fair criticism. But they probably felt it was necessary to cloud the mythology in all that stuff in order to hide it and keep the watchers guessing. I for one will fully admit that it worked for me - up until headSix physically picked Baltar up in S4 and held him I had pretty much dismissed the mythology as the ravings of people who had gone mad due to what they did or coincidence. In that sense the strategy of the producers worked and I wonder how many fans are still refusing to accept the mythology even when having it flat-out told to them...certainly judging from the review thread, no small number.

Plus, people will obsess over it for ages trying to rationalize it, thus ensuring the show is still talked about and generates interest even when it is gone.

It's actually fascinating; I fucking hated this show for being massively pretentious, gasbagging bullshit with faux-depth that was just one absurdity after another - after the finale many fans hated I think I can pretty clearly see how it was 'supposed' to work the whole time. I'm just not sure I'll ever be able to see past RM thinking he's clever or relevant.

Heh. As RDM says so in the interview I linked to, all that grimdark leading up to the finale was a final head fake for the semi-happy ending.

[Gandalf]

Maybe the Cylons' plan was just Cavil's screwing with the final five because he can?

I felt that the show's best moments often didn't come from the Galactica characters, but rather everyone else in the fleet from Colonial One to the Daru Mozu.

I'm a big fan of Dirty Hands*. It showed that the populace was suffering, and that the nature of Colonial society was changing. There was a class system developing, much to the chagrin of those who were stuck on the tylium refinery, and presumably other labourers. Baltar was going to be able to ride that discontent into some form of influence once again. Where was the follow up to this episode? What happened to the discontent, the striking, the potential to revolt? Did they all join Baltar's parish?

* By this, I'm referring to the season three episode. IRL I cannot abide having dirty hands.

[JME2]

Maybe the Cylons' plan was just Cavil's screwing with the final five because he can?

I felt that the show's best moments often didn't come from the Galactica characters, but rather everyone else in the fleet from Colonial One to the Daru Mozu.

I'm a big fan of Dirty Hands*. It showed that the populace was suffering, and that the nature of Colonial society was changing. There was a class system developing, much to the chagrin of those who were stuck on the tylium refinery, and presumably other labourers. Baltar was going to be able to ride that discontent into some form of influence once again. Where was the follow up to this episode? What happened to the discontent, the striking, the potential to revolt? Did they all join Baltar's parish?

* By this, I'm referring to the season three episode. IRL I cannot abide having dirty hands.

Aye. This is partially why I wish they'd gone 5 seasons as planned; little stuff like this (or even the Sons of Ares subplot from S4) were never really satisfactorily resolved; they got pushed to the side for the final brouhaha.

[Patrick Degan]

I suppose one question before the bar which has yet to be answered is: how well will this series age? To be certain, it's going to last a lot better than it's progressively cheap and hokey Space Mormons From Planet Egypt predecessor as the years wear on. But how are people years down the line going to look back upon what RDM wrought and find it at all relevant in a different time and a viewing from the perspective of a different personal or social consciousness? How well will its themes hold up against the test of time?

[Anguirus]

Aye. This is partially why I wish they'd gone 5 seasons as planned; little stuff like this (or even the Sons of Ares subplot from S4) were never really satisfactorily resolved; they got pushed to the side for the final brouhaha.

I couldn't disagree more. At least a third of Season 3 is filler.

Season 4, whatever else you may think of it, has no filler. Deciding that 4 would be the last season before they started writing it is one of the best things they did.

Sons of Ares were never going anywhere, they were just a minor plot element. The striking workers were underused, I agree, but some of them did appear again in Revelations (stock footage) and in Islanded. (Dirty Hands actually showed what good leaders Adama and Roslin were...for the safety of the fleet they had to crush the strike immediately, but once the fuel started flowing again they actually made a good attempt to address the workers' concerns.)

[Morilore]

So, to sum up and comment before this drops off the first page:

People like BSG's character development, dramatic conflicts, a dose of ambiguity about the plot, and occasional tendency to avoid reset buttons and give actions real consequences. People disliked one-shot episodes, discontinuities, emo grimdark characters, plot contrivances, and lack of follow-up for central or interesting plot threads. Early on Thanas cites Season 4's "descent into mythology" as a negative point. Anguirus has the uncommon opinion that the show's overall quality was consistent over it's run. Stark feels the show has potential as a character study in an iconic or mythical setting but for now cannot get over certain implausible and stupid plot contrivances and the writers' pretensions of serious relevance.

It's interesting that no one here has yet explicitly cited religion or spirituality (mythology and religion are not the same thing) as a bad element, despite certain fanwhore bleatings in the Daybreak thread that the reason the finale is criticized is because of its religious elements. It's also interesting that I'm the only one so far who has ranked any part of Daybreak as among the worst of the show. There are definitely some battles among people's list of best episodes, but not as many as you might think (if battles are what people like, where are The Captain's Hand or He That Believeth In Me on the best lists?). It seems that at least the people who have posted in this thread so far do appreciate RDM's "character-driven drama" schtick.

[General Zod]

It's interesting that no one here has yet explicitly cited religion or spirituality (mythology and religion are not the same thing) as a bad element, despite certain fanwhore bleatings in the Daybreak thread that the reason the finale is criticized is because of its religious elements.

I don't generally tend to have problems with religious aspects in a show as long as they meet the criteria of being important to the setting if they get brought up often enough and not being a vehicle for the writer to pontificate his pet ideals, myself. (I realize that a lot of writers are going to do this to some extent or another anyway but some manage make it so blatantly obvious they'd have to smash your head into a wall to be more so).

[Stark]

I think that's because the people who don't are over in the other thread being sad.

It's quite remarkable to me how now the series is over and RM's 'plan' is out of the bag, just reading interviews and talking to Thanas has nearly reversed my opinion on the show. I might be too anal to ever watch the miniseries without rolling my eyes at the appalling contrivance that started the show, but if you drop the specifics even the crap I've seen is much more 'valid' or 'successful'. Certainly moreso than whatever else is on television.

[Thanas]

It's interesting that no one here has yet explicitly cited religion or spirituality (mythology and religion are not the same thing) as a bad element, despite certain fanwhore bleatings in the Daybreak thread that the reason the finale is criticized is because of its religious elements. It's also interesting that I'm the only one so far who has ranked any part of Daybreak as among the worst of the show. There are definitely some battles among people's list of best episodes, but not as many as you might think (if battles are what people like, where are The Captain's Hand or He That Believeth In Me on the best lists?). It seems that at least the people who have posted in this thread so far do appreciate RDM's "character-driven drama" schtick.

Well, I for one liked the finale and even the angels. Of course I can only comment on myself, but for me religion has always been one of the biggest plot elements over the series, from the time of 33 where HeadSix tried to convert Baltar. To claim otherwise would be pretty stupid in light of that evidence.

Once that premise is accepted, the question is whether the resolution in the finale lives up to that. I am of the opinion it does (Plus, it gives me a reason to rewatch the series from the start in order to see how in light of that relevation my interpretation might change).

That said, my earlier "descent into mythology" was me poorly expressing that I feel the show spent too much time in S4 on mythology, especially the cult of Baltar subplot, which went nowhere.

[Thanas]

I don't generally tend to have problems with religious aspects in a show as long as they meet the criteria of being important to the setting if they get brought up often enough and not being a vehicle for the writer to pontificate his pet ideals, myself. (I realize that a lot of writers are going to do this to some extent or another anyway but some manage make it so blatantly obvious they'd have to smash your head into a wall to be more so).

Yeah, that is how I feel about the show myself. Of course, the question is whether RDM pontificated in his show. I tend to say no because if you watch the show from the start, it is a gradual increase in the various religious viewpoints with the show - although proving the angels right at the end - having the viewer guessing which one is the correct viewpoint.

That said, even the ending leaves enough wiggle room.

I think that's because the people who don't are over in the other thread being sad.

It's quite remarkable to me how now the series is over and RM's 'plan' is out of the bag, just reading interviews and talking to Thanas has nearly reversed my opinion on the show.

Cool.

I might be too anal to ever watch the miniseries without rolling my eyes at the appalling contrivance that started the show, but if you drop the specifics even the crap I've seen is much more 'valid' or 'successful'. Certainly moreso than whatever else is on television.

Hmm. What awful contrivance do you mean especially? Because the miniseries was full of them and even had a dreadful bit of technobabble (which thank god wasn't ever repeated in the show). That said, nowadays I just tend to skip to the scenes that really matter with regard to the bigger story nowadays.

As an aside, does this mean you'll (re-)watch the show sometimes?

[Thanas]

I'll just add one more thing - there is no way the show would have succeded in mainstream television. Even with Time and major news outlets lobbying for the show, only 2.5 million watched the finale, which is half of what programs on mainstream TV get on regular night.

[Stark]

Pretty much everything before 'a fleet of starships are being chased by nasty robots' is offensively stupid and forced, and did much to turn me off the show from the get-go. Indeed, it's possible when I caught the show again, I was very ready to recognise such contrivances again, simply because of the frankly pathetic way the mini sets up the situation. My continued negative reactions may have been me simply thinking 'oh look another totally unrealistic and forced situation, ho hum'.

'uh... a wizard... and then... everyone is dead, start the drama'...

[Morilore]

Well, I for one liked the finale and even the angels. Of course I can only comment on myself, but for me religion has always been one of the biggest plot elements over the series, from the time of 33 where HeadSix tried to convert Baltar. To claim otherwise would be pretty stupid in light of that evidence.

Once that premise is accepted, the question is whether the resolution in the finale lives up to that. I am of the opinion it does (Plus, it gives me a reason to rewatch the series from the start in order to see how in light of that relevation my interpretation might change).

That said, my earlier "descent into mythology" was me poorly expressing that I feel the show spent too much time in S4 on mythology, especially the cult of Baltar subplot, which went nowhere.

I find myself forgiving Daybreak 3 as time goes on and I get used to certain ideas. Not that I still don't want to see the Divine Mystery notion of plot resolution deconstructed, but I can appreciate character moments more.

P.S. D13, you may want to update your sig.

[General Zod]

Pretty much everything before 'a fleet of starships are being chased by nasty robots' is offensively stupid and forced, and did much to turn me off the show from the get-go. Indeed, it's possible when I caught the show again, I was very ready to recognise such contrivances again, simply because of the frankly pathetic way the mini sets up the situation. My continued negative reactions may have been me simply thinking 'oh look another totally unrealistic and forced situation, ho hum'.

'uh... a wizard... and then... everyone is dead, start the drama'...

All I have to say about the mini is thank Cthulhu they decided to ignore the stupid glowing spine during sex angle.

[Stark]

Sadly, shit like that made the S1 OMG WHO IS A SYLON thing retarded. I honestly think I would have enjoyed the show much more if I'd never, ever watched the miniseries.

[Thanas]

Yeah, the glowing spine was unnecessary. However if one is willing to disregard that and cut the series some slack, I think one will enjoy it.

Seriously, by comparison S1 of NuWho required me to shrug off many more things and contrivances. Without the excellent acting of Ecclestone and the chemistry between the two main figures S1 would certainly fare worse than the miniseries of BSG IMO.

Stark, if you dislike the miniseries, I suggest you start simply with 33 and work your way up from there. With the revelation of the angels, the Olympic Carrier gets a whole new angle etc.

[His Divine Shadow]

Heh. As RDM says so in the interview I linked to, all that grimdark leading up to the finale was a final head fake for the semi-happy ending.

I dunno how happy it reallt is, they all went mad with anti technology luddite bullshit in the end, probably most of them died of in 10 years or so. Maybe Lee died soon after because it turned out he was allergic to pollen and they sent all the antihistamines into the sun

"And then they all died, of gangrene"

Hmm, that kind of ending appeals to me more actually.

[Sam Or I]

High and Sight is 20/20

33 is still my favorite episode.

The Highs of the series:
-Seasons 1, 2 and the first few episodes of 3: Very militaristic, which is what sucked me in. Things actually resembled the military. Stupid accidents kill people, corny traditions, and the cylons still felt like a major threat. A sense of desperation, that was lost somewhere along the lines in season 3. (will talk more about it later)

-Tighs Character Arch (Season 1-4.0: At first he seemed like a character that was not going anywhere, just a washed up old drunk out of his league put there to create conflict and nothing else. Ended up leading the resistance, killing his wifeand turned out being a cylon himself.(will talk more about it later)

-The Athena, Helo, and Hera Character choice (All the way through): Ok, at first I was iffy about this until the very end, and it dawned on me. Either through Moores writing or by chance (I am going with chance), that the least flawed of the Humans and Cylons are the ones holding each races hope for the future. So the best of Human and Cylon is Hera.

-The Rules and Style of the Universe(All the way through): Love the style of the Battlestars, the Flak Cannons, Missile Barrages, the Damage taken(and remained on the ships) and the Jump Drives. People died. (With exceptions, like the fiber optic in the arm bit.) The low tech feel of the show also made it more also added to how I related to it, vs Star Trek or B-5.

-The small touches(All the way through): The memorial wall, Chief making moonshine, the Pegasus crew keeping a gun kill count will the Galactica crew did not. These little things added greatly to the show.

-Baltar (1-4.0): You loved to hate the guy, such a sleazy little weasle. Everyone is complaining about a copy of the crew in every other Sci Fi show, I can't think one has a Baltar type going back and forth so often.

-Adama: I like him, so what!!

The lows (I will try to put it in order to make sense):

The opera house is CIC ending. It felt very forced. Going to the next topic for further explanation.

Cylon Civil war/the Human Cylon alliance: It took away from the desperation of the fleet, and took away the fear of a lot of the Cylons. All the "bad guy/girl" (Baltar and Six) from the opera house sequence turned out to be on the same side as Roslin and Athena, it did not seem critical any more. The more they humanized the Cylons as a whole (individuals seemed to work but half of the cylon race did not work for me), I felt like the more the show was degraded.

The final five: They took to much away from the show. I saw it as a distraction to the main plot once they were revealed. Did not like that they were "unique", they could have done it with or two cylon models, to still have the main plot. Also too many known characters were cylons. Now that being said, Tigh should have been a cylon, sleeper or not. I also thing he should have been sucked out the airlock standing at attention as a military officer.

Baltar's Redemption : I did not like it. I would have ended it with him stuck on a planet all alone with only head six for company, either completely insane, or having dealt with the devil which ever way you wish to interpret it.

Starbuck, and Starbuck wank: To much 90210 with Starbuck. Keeping it subtle worked best in season 1. I do not mind not like a character, but when the writers want you to like her, and force her on you and you still don't like her, something is wrong. She is great at everything even made it worse.

[Stark]

High and Sight is 20/20

Excuse me? What do you think this means? Look up 'hindsight' in the dictionary and explain what 'high and sight' means.

[Anguirus]

Anguirus has the uncommon opinion that the show's overall quality was consistent over it's run.

Uncommon in this thread, maybe.

Slightly OT, but I liked the Opera House resolution. It's not just "CIC." It's CIC, within the Cylon Colony, orbiting the naked singularity, i.e. the one place in the universe where the song is the coordinates to Earth.

[Stofsk]

I suppose one question before the bar which has yet to be answered is: how well will this series age? To be certain, it's going to last a lot better than it's progressively cheap and hokey Space Mormons From Planet Egypt predecessor as the years wear on. But how are people years down the line going to look back upon what RDM wrought and find it at all relevant in a different time and a viewing from the perspective of a different personal or social consciousness? How well will its themes hold up against the test of time?

I will say this: Battlestar Galactica is certainly a product and reflection of the times in which it was made in. Whether you think it was a good show or a terrible one, looking back people will recognise the style and themes the show had were indicative of a certain time, like for instance the use of suicide bombing by a resistance movement against a technologically and numerically superior occupier... who often happen to be morally bankrupt, with the rationalisation 'we're occupying you for your own good' being revealed to be total bullshit.

That alone will place this show in the conciousness of those who grew up listening to daily reports of the war in Iraq, especially how uncomfortable realities began surfacing.

That may not be a bad thing, though. I think a common theme in Battlestar, that of sacrifice, leaving behind the old life and facing a future that is at best uncertain and at worst scary, will resonate with people not just today but in later years to come.

For me, the best parts of this show aren't episodes with 'battleporn' or Edward James Olmos growling at people, and it's not in any one episode or select few episodes. For me, the very best moments of the show was when the plot seemed to move forward, for me it was a big thing for them to find the sign posts towards earth. Themes such as love, loss, and desperation were presented through the drama and action of the show in great fashion (which includes depictions of how terrifying it must be to sit in the cockpit of a Raptor or Viper and expect to survive the experience).

The worst parts of the show again, weren't episodes (that would be too easy) but more like moments in many episodes where the plot wasn't given the very best attention needed to make the story work, plus characters acting like lunatics half the time. And the constant violence. The grittiness may appeal to some, and I think it's a valuable thing to portray the desperate climate and state the characters are in, but to show week after week unrelenting violence that seems capricious and random... it gets sickeningly tiring after awhile. Season 4 has been the worst offender in this regard. You NEED to have lighter moments to make the grim darkness bearable. That's how it would be in real life by the way, I know this from personal experience having gone through two years of hell. You either learn to have a defiant laugh, or you kill yourself. Or you go nuts.

[Thanas]

...alll of which happened to the characters.

People killed themselves (Dee, Starbuck), went nuts (Bulldog) or just have a defiant laugh (Adama). There were lighter moments, methinks, like Tigh and Adama cracking jokes etc.

[Stofsk]

...alll of which happened to the characters.

People killed themselves (Dee, Starbuck), went nuts (Bulldog)

When the hell did Starbuck kill herself? When did she commit suicide?

Anyway, the point I was making is that the 'grimdark' style to the story is the worst aspect of the show.

or just have a defiant laugh (Adama). There were lighter moments, methinks, like Tigh and Adama cracking jokes etc.

All welcome, but not enough of it occurred. Having Tigh and Adama exchange a crack is heart warming, but you need to show it throughout the cast. Starbuck and Apollo sharing a kiss in the middle of the mutiny is a good example. Never say die.

[Thanas]

...alll of which happened to the characters.

People killed themselves (Dee, Starbuck), went nuts (Bulldog)

When the hell did Starbuck kill herself? When did she commit suicide?

In the season three episode "Maelstrom".

Anyway, the point I was making is that the 'grimdark' style to the story is the worst aspect of the show.

I am not so sure of that - it certainly fits with the story of "all of this has happened before etc". I did enjoy the Grimdark episodes, usually because they were accompanied by great character acting.

or just have a defiant laugh (Adama). There were lighter moments, methinks, like Tigh and Adama cracking jokes etc.

All welcome, but not enough of it occurred. Having Tigh and Adama exchange a crack is heart warming, but you need to show it throughout the cast. Starbuck and Apollo sharing a kiss in the middle of the mutiny is a good example. Never say die.

Well, even in the finale plenty of things made me chuckle. Like the reaction to the angels, the "one track mind" etc.

Frankly, I doubt one could have told that story without the grimdark to it.