I suppose the next step will be to determine if anything besides neutrons can be detected, so some useful work can be extracted from the reaction.EE Times: Latest News
Cold fusion experimentally confirmed
R. Colin Johnson
(03/23/2009 8:43 PM EDT)
URL: http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtm ... =216200272
PORTLAND, Ore. — U.S. Navy researchers claimed to have experimentally confirmed cold fusion in a presentation at the American Chemical Society's annual meeting.
"We have compelling evidence that fusion reactions are occurring" at room temperature, said Pamela Mosier-Boss, a scientist with the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center (San Diego). The results are "the first scientific report of highly energetic neutrons from low-energy nuclear reactions," she added.
Cold fusion was first reported in 1989 by researchers Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, then with the University of Utah, prompting a global effort to develop the technology. Normal fusion reactions, where hydrogen is fused into helium, occur at millions of degrees inside the Sun. If room temperature fusion reactions could be realized commercially, as Fleishchmann and Pons claimed to have achieved inside an electrolytic cell, it promised to produce abundant nuclear energy from deuterium--heavy hydrogen--extracted from seawater.
Other scientists were unable to duplicate the 1989 results, thereby discrediting the work.
The theoretical underpinnings of cold fusion have yet to be adequately explained. The hypothesis is that when electrolysis is performed on deuteron, molecules are fused into helium, releasing a high-energy neutron. While excess heat has been detected by researchers, no group had yet been able to detect the missing neutrons.
Now, the Naval researchers claim that the problem was instrumentation, which was not up to the task of detecting such small numbers of neutrons. To sense such small quantities, Mosier-Boss used a special plastic detector called CR-39. Using co-deposition with nickel and gold wire electrodes, which were inserted into a mixture of palladium chloride and deutrium, the detector was able to capture and track the high-energy neutrons.
NOTE: A diagram of the test setup is viewable at the linked source
The plastic detector captured a pattern of tiny clusters of adjacent pits, called triple tracks, which the researchers claim is evidence of the telltale neutrons.
Other presenters at the conference also presented evidence supporting cold fusion, including Antonella De Ninno, a scientist with New Technologies Energy and Environment (Rome), who reported both excess heat and helium gas.
"We now have very convincing experimental evidence," De Ninno claimed.
Tadahiko Mizuno of Japan's Hokkaido University also reported excess heat generation and gamma-ray emissions.
All three research groups are currently exploring both experimental and theoretical studies in hopes of better understanding the cold fusion process well enough to commercialize it.
Research funding was provided by the Department of the Navy and JWK International Corp. (Annandale, Va.).
Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
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Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Perhaps Fleischmann & Pons are due an apology:
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Colour me extremely skeptical until more independently confirmed sources crop up.
That said, wouldn't this be considered a physics dream come true?
That said, wouldn't this be considered a physics dream come true?
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Something a bit more technical and reliable
link 1
EDIT: And now it is back
So it isn't conclusive, but it is at least intriguing. And potentially game changing if it pans out, but I'd hold off on that still.
link 1
New Scientist is currently down for some reason, but it has a few articles and editorials on this as well according to my RSS.Is the science community warming to cold fusion? It's been 20 years to the day since Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, electrochemists at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, announced the discovery of what they believed to be "cold fusion" (now often referred to as low-energy nuclear reactions, or LENR), a room-temperature nuclear reaction that reportedly generated an unexplained amount of heat. The pronouncement spawned a flurry of excitement about a new renewable energy source, but enthusiasm quickly waned after the result wasn't satisfactorily replicated. Today at the American Chemical Society's national meeting in the very same city, researchers are recapping recent developments in the field – including images of what some believe are telltale signs of reaction-born subatomic particles, as well as documentation of heat, helium, gamma rays and other products from possible low-energy nuclear reactions.
"We have been working for … years to know what kinds of questions to address," one of the presenters Antonella De Ninno, a scientist at the New Technolgies Energy and Environment in Italy, said in a statement. "After long term and intensive research, we found ourselves able to give a reasonable … explanation."
One team, led by Pamela Mosier-Boss, an analytical chemist at the U.S. Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, has announced visual evidence of a fusion-like reaction. "If you have fusion going on, then you have to have neutrons," Mosier-Boss said in a statement. “People have always asked 'Where's the neutrons,'" she said, and in their presentation, they reported finding evidence of these neurons. By exposing a special kind of plastic to the reaction, patterns of minute dents (or "triple tracks" that show three close nearby forms) were made by excited neutrons created from a nuclear reaction, they report.
In other signs of fusion, Tadahiko Mizuno, an assistant professor in the department of nuclear engineering at Hokkadio University in Japan, reports having detected gamma radiation and De Ninno notes the production of helium gas in experiments; both are possible byproducts of a nuclear LENR reaction.
The hope of LENR is to replicate the powerful energy generation that occurs in stars such as our sun, but to do so at a much cooler temperature. If successful, it could provide a nearly infinite supply of clean energy here on Earth. But many remain skeptical, including the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). After reviewing a July report by LENR researchers, the DOE said the evidence "did not conclusively demonstrate the occurrence of cold fusion." DOE recommended research continue, but even its tempered response and skepticism in the scientific community has done little to quell the enthusiasm of researchers.
"The solution of the global warming issue… energy problems, and carbon dioxide can be expected," Mizuno said in a statement, "by putting this nuclear reaction and the energy generation device to practical use." In the meantime, even the already-demonstrated hot fusion waits for its turn in the sun, as work on the collaborative international ITER thermonuclear fusion reactor project crawls along.
EDIT: And now it is back
Twenty years to the day that two electrochemists ignited controversy by announcing signs of cold fusion at an infamous press conference in Utah (watch a video of the 1989 event), a separate team has made a similar claim in the same US state. But this time, the evidence is being taken more seriously.
Back in 1989, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons at the University of Utah announced the tantalising prospect of abundant, almost-free energy, but their claims of fusion reactions in a tabletop experiment were dismissed by nuclear physicists, not least because such reactions normally occur inside stars. The small quantity of extra energy they found was widely considered a fluke or the result of experimental error.
Now Pamela Mosier-Boss and colleagues at Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR) in San Diego, California, are claiming to have made a "significant" discovery – clear evidence of the products of cold fusion.
On 23 March, the team presented its work at the American Chemical Society's spring conference in Salt Lake City, Utah, a few months after the study was published in a peer-reviewed journal (Naturwissenschaft, DOI: 10.1007/s00114-008-0449-x).
Plastic fantastic
Using a similar experimental setup to Fleischmann and Pons, the researchers found the "tracks" left behind by high-energy neutrons, which, they suggest, emerge from the fusion of a deuterium and tritium atom.
The team used a low-tech particle detector: a plastic called CR-39 that is otherwise used for spectacle lenses. When CR-39 is bombarded with subatomic charged particles, a small pit forms in the material with each impact.
The researchers placed a sample of CR-39 in contact with a gold or nickel cathode in an electrochemical cell filled with a mixture of palladium chloride, lithium chloride and deuterium oxide (D2O), so-called "heavy water". When a current was passed through the cell, palladium and deuterium became deposited on the cathode.
Triple tracks
After two to three weeks, the team found a small number of "triple tracks" in the plastic – three 8-micrometre-wide pits radiating from a point (see diagram, top right). The team says such a pattern occurs when a high-energy neutron strikes a carbon atom inside the plastic and shatters it into three charged alpha particles that rip through the plastic leaving tracks. No such tracks were seen if the experiment was repeated using normal rather than heavy water.
Johan Frenje at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, an expert at interpreting CR-39 tracks produced in conventional high-temperature fusion reactions, says the team's interpretation of what produced the tracks is valid.
"I must say that the data and their analysis seem to suggest that energetic neutrons have been produced," he says, although he would like to see the results confirmed quantitatively.
More controversial is the team's suggestion for the process that produced the neutrons. High-energy neutrons are unlikely to be produced by a normal chemical reaction, says Mosier-Boss. So, it's possible, she says, they are created during the fusion of deuterium and tritium atoms tightly packed in palladium framework at the cathode. The tritium also being a product of the fusion of two deuterium atoms.
Some researchers in the cold fusion field agree. "In my view [it's] a cold fusion effect," says Peter Hagelstein, also at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Alternative theory
Others, though, are not convinced. Steven Krivit, editor of the New Energy Times, has been following the cold fusion debate for many years and also spoke at the ACS conference. "Their hypothesis as to a fusion mechanism I think is on thin ice … you get into physics fantasies rather quickly and this is an unfortunate distraction from their excellent empirical work," he told New Scientist.
Krivit thinks cold fusion remains science fiction. Like many in the field, he prefers to categorise the work as evidence of "low energy nuclear reactions", and says it can be explained without relying on nuclear fusion.
In 2006, Allan Widom at Northeastern University in Boston and Lewis Larsen of Lattice Energy, LLC, suggested that the key to the process was oscillating surface plasmons – waves of energy rippling through electrons on the surface of the electrode.
They said that the rough surface of the palladium on the electrode focuses the energy into small pits, where it can be transferred to a single electron. The high-energy electron can then shoot into the nucleus of a nearby deuterium atom and combine with a proton to release a neutron and a neutrino (European Physical Journal C, DOI: 10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8).
"Electrons and protons don't have trouble attracting," Widom told New Scientist, and he says the explanation conforms to the Standard Model of particle physics. He speculates that this theory could explain instances of exploding laptop batteries, and could be harnessed as an energy source – something Larsen's company hopes to commercialise.
Journal reference: Naturwissenschaft (DOI: 10.1007/s00114-008-0449-x)
So it isn't conclusive, but it is at least intriguing. And potentially game changing if it pans out, but I'd hold off on that still.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Not an earth shattering discovery now, but give it twenty years, and who knows? Like super-conductivity. At the time it was expensive and only existed in laboratories. Now, NYC is replacing copper with a super-conductive conduit. The practical application arrives years after the initial discovery. Perhaps so to with neutron producing cold fusion.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Oh, for heaven's sakes, not another rallying cry of "Fusion is only 20 years off!"Tahlan wrote:Not an earth shattering discovery now, but give it twenty years, and who knows? Like super-conductivity. At the time it was expensive and only existed in laboratories. Now, NYC is replacing copper with a super-conductive conduit. The practical application arrives years after the initial discovery. Perhaps so to with neutron producing cold fusion.
It isn't like we've never heard that one before.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Until an increase in helium is observed, it's hard to take this seriously. Allan Widom's hypothesis of inverse beta decay has the benefit of not postulating a spontaneous violation of the standard model at energy scales where it's known to be reliable.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
From the first article Ender posted:Until an increase in helium is observed, it's hard to take this seriously. Allan Widom's hypothesis of inverse beta decay has the benefit of not postulating a spontaneous violation of the standard model at energy scales where it's known to be reliable.
So, apparently, they have observed an increase in helium. Doesn't mean it still can't be something else, of course.Today at the American Chemical Society's national meeting in the very same city, researchers are recapping recent developments in the field – including images of what some believe are telltale signs of reaction-born subatomic particles, as well as documentation of heat, helium, gamma rays and other products from possible low-energy nuclear reactions.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
I'll hold my bated breath until
1. The Experiment has been repeated
2. They publish.
1. The Experiment has been repeated
2. They publish.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Um, 1) It is a replication of an experiment 20 years earlier and 2) They have been published in a peer reviewed journal. Specifically Naturwissenschaft (DOI: 10.1007/s00114-008-0449-x). Go to the New Scientist page I linked to and they have a hyperlink to it.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'll hold my bated breath until
1. The Experiment has been repeated
2. They publish.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Given quantum tunneling, it is always possible that nuclear reactions occur at any temperature. But if they occur in such low quantity that they needed technological advances before they could detect their presence, one must be rather skeptical of the whole concept as a power generation method, which is the whole point of cold fusion or any other kind of fusion. There are actually many types of fusion which do not involve a Tokomak-style super-hot plasmoid, and the problem with most of them is that there is no way they will ever produce enough energy to be worthwhile.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
I would be more impressed if they managed to get it published in Physics Review however.Ender wrote:Um, 1) It is a replication of an experiment 20 years earlier and 2) They have been published in a peer reviewed journal. Specifically Naturwissenschaft (DOI: 10.1007/s00114-008-0449-x). Go to the New Scientist page I linked to and they have a hyperlink to it.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Even if they are, the same problem remains: if the actual neutron flux is so much lower than what Pons and Fleischman measured, then it's still not a verification of their work, and it's probably not evidence that this is a viable concept either.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I would be more impressed if they managed to get it published in Physics Review however.Ender wrote:Um, 1) It is a replication of an experiment 20 years earlier and 2) They have been published in a peer reviewed journal. Specifically Naturwissenschaft (DOI: 10.1007/s00114-008-0449-x). Go to the New Scientist page I linked to and they have a hyperlink to it.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Even if it is as Mr. Wong states about the quantum tunneling effect and there fore impratical as a power source the knowledge gained from it will perhaps have other benefits. If nothing else it will either give a better understanding of our universe or baffle the shit out of everyone and leave people scratching their heads.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Even fusion in the Sun is generally a quantum tunneling effect. Quantum tunneling is not an exotic phenomenon; it is just a side-effect of the probabilistic nature of subatomic reactions. To put it in the simplest possible terms, if you keep rolling dice someone will eventually roll two sixes, so nuclear fusion can happen even when the conditions do not seem to permit it. If the rate is extremely low, then they will stay low under those conditions, because the probabilities won't really change.dragon wrote:Even if it is as Mr. Wong states about the quantum tunneling effect and there fore impratical as a power source the knowledge gained from it will perhaps have other benefits. If nothing else it will either give a better understanding of our universe or baffle the shit out of everyone and leave people scratching their heads.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
I thought quantum tunneling had to due with that there is a remote chance of finding the particle on the other side of a barrier based off the Schrödinger's wave-equation.Darth Wong wrote:Even fusion in the Sun is generally a quantum tunneling effect. Quantum tunneling is not an exotic phenomenon; it is just a side-effect of the probabilistic nature of subatomic reactions. To put it in the simplest possible terms, if you keep rolling dice someone will eventually roll two sixes, so nuclear fusion can happen even when the conditions do not seem to permit it. If the rate is extremely low, then they will stay low under those conditions, because the probabilities won't really change.dragon wrote:Even if it is as Mr. Wong states about the quantum tunneling effect and there fore impratical as a power source the knowledge gained from it will perhaps have other benefits. If nothing else it will either give a better understanding of our universe or baffle the shit out of everyone and leave people scratching their heads.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
That phrasing is not a whole lot different from what I said.dragon wrote:I thought quantum tunneling had to due with that there is a remote chance of finding the particle on the other side of a barrier based off the Schrödinger's wave-equation.Darth Wong wrote:Even fusion in the Sun is generally a quantum tunneling effect. Quantum tunneling is not an exotic phenomenon; it is just a side-effect of the probabilistic nature of subatomic reactions. To put it in the simplest possible terms, if you keep rolling dice someone will eventually roll two sixes, so nuclear fusion can happen even when the conditions do not seem to permit it. If the rate is extremely low, then they will stay low under those conditions, because the probabilities won't really change.dragon wrote:Even if it is as Mr. Wong states about the quantum tunneling effect and there fore impratical as a power source the knowledge gained from it will perhaps have other benefits. If nothing else it will either give a better understanding of our universe or baffle the shit out of everyone and leave people scratching their heads.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
miss read it sorry.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Ouch. That's what I get for reading only the New Scientist article.Psychic_Sandwich wrote:From the first article Ender posted: ...
Which is in itself very odd--why would a biology journal publish a paper on nuclear physics and what was the quality of its referees in that field?Ender wrote:Um, 1) It is a replication of an experiment 20 years earlier and 2) They have been published in a peer reviewed journal. Specifically Naturwissenschaft (DOI: 10.1007/s00114-008-0449-x).
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
My personal take was that they would rather have it published in some obscure journal rather than have it stand up to scrutiny in say Physics Review E or C.Kuroneko wrote:Which is in itself very odd--why would a biology journal publish a paper on nuclear physics and what was the quality of its referees in that field?
But I would wait for the criticism to come in before making a judgment.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
What would radiation shielding requirements for a fusion reactor be? If a hypothetical cold fusion reactor would produce usable power levels would`t there be also high neutron flux requiring tons of shielding thus limiting the potential application only to large scale systems as opposed as some people have imagined cold fusion if viable would make a tabletop nuclear reactors possible.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
I believe a fusion reaction would be creating just as much high gammas as any ordinary nuclear reactor, which would necessitate some sizeable shielding.Sky Captain wrote:What would radiation shielding requirements for a fusion reactor be? If a hypothetical cold fusion reactor would produce usable power levels would`t there be also high neutron flux requiring tons of shielding thus limiting the potential application only to large scale systems as opposed as some people have imagined cold fusion if viable would make a tabletop nuclear reactors possible.
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Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Yes, there would be, as well as a high gamma flux as Chewie noted. You'd need a good amount of shielding to stop both, and it would have to be changed out periodically. This is because the neutron flux from the reaction would make the shielding itself radioactive (atoms would gain several extra neutrons, leading to beta decay).Sky Captain wrote:What would radiation shielding requirements for a fusion reactor be? If a hypothetical cold fusion reactor would produce usable power levels would`t there be also high neutron flux requiring tons of shielding thus limiting the potential application only to large scale systems as opposed as some people have imagined cold fusion if viable would make a tabletop nuclear reactors possible.
Viable tabletop nuclear reactors of any sort producing a significant amount of energy are pure folly because of the shielding problem, and where the hell are you going to put the steam turbines necessary to generate the electricity? No, to be cost effective (not to mention safe), cold fusion reactors would be large scale affairs. The attraction obviously lies in the very low activation energies required compared to conventional fusion.
Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Layman question here.. point out anything that's gone wrong.
We can initiate fusion at present, but only by setting up a state of high temperature (and pressure?), which we do by using a fission reaction. Only useful for bombs, and not for power generation, because the kickstart would destroy any apparatus (or a powerplant) that we do it in.
Cold fusion is all about finding a way to start fusing atoms together without needing that state of high temperature and pressure. Hence, we can start it in a controlled environment and contain it while carefully feeding it and getting lots of useful heat from it.
Is that in any way correct?
We can initiate fusion at present, but only by setting up a state of high temperature (and pressure?), which we do by using a fission reaction. Only useful for bombs, and not for power generation, because the kickstart would destroy any apparatus (or a powerplant) that we do it in.
Cold fusion is all about finding a way to start fusing atoms together without needing that state of high temperature and pressure. Hence, we can start it in a controlled environment and contain it while carefully feeding it and getting lots of useful heat from it.
Is that in any way correct?
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"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus
"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:My personal take was that they would rather have it published in some obscure journal rather than have it stand up to scrutiny in say Physics Review E or C.Kuroneko wrote:Which is in itself very odd--why would a biology journal publish a paper on nuclear physics and what was the quality of its referees in that field?
Guys.
First of all - the real name of the journal is "Naturwissenschaften".
Second - as the name applies, it covers biology, chemistry and life sciences.
Furthermore, this might be a homage to Otto Hahn, who first published the discovery of nuclear fission in the same journal.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs
Re: Cold fusion experimentally confirmed by the US Navy!
Not quite. The rate of fusion is determined by temperature and density, and confinement time is another important parameter. A self-perpetuating fusion burn is one that gives off enough heat to keep the temperature high enough for fusion to continue. While we create the conditions for this in a bomb with a fission reaction and rely on inertial confinement for the fusion reactions to occur (i.e., all the fusion occurs in a very short period of time before the hydrogen has time to disperse), it's quite possible to construct controlled fusion; all you need to do is hold the reactants in place somehow while they're heated up. We haven't achieved confined, controlled self-perpetuating fusion, but we have certainly achieved fusion. The problems with controlled fusion include that we have difficulty keeping plasma confined (like herding cats), and there are also issues with finding materials that can handle the radiation and neutron flux.Cykeisme wrote:We can initiate fusion at present, but only by setting up a state of high temperature (and pressure?), which we do by using a fission reaction. Only useful for bombs, and not for power generation, because the kickstart would destroy any apparatus (or a powerplant) that we do it in.
The problem with cold fusion is that, as far as is known (this article notwithstanding), it's physically impossible for hydrogen atoms to overcome the Coulomb barrier en masse without sufficiently high average kinetic energies, which translates to very high temperatures.Cold fusion is all about finding a way to start fusing atoms together without needing that state of high temperature and pressure. Hence, we can start it in a controlled environment and contain it while carefully feeding it and getting lots of useful heat from it.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass