Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Tahlan wrote:It's all very interesting. However, my question is: Where are the other nations of the world in laser development? Allies and antagonists? The USA can't be the only country developing lasers. Are we leading the way or are we going to get smoked like a cheap cigar by another nation?
The US is leading the way in solid state lasers, many nations already have high power chemical lasers though, and if World War III started tomorrow both Russia and China would be able to use chemical lasers from static positions to destroy satellites. Not much reason exits to assume the US advantage will last long. Anyone with a military worth a damn already produces a range of solid state lasers of low power for use as target designators and rangefinders, and even small lasers like that can be used as very effective blinding weapons (you can even filter them to cause no permanent damage, making them legal) and potentially they can also damage optical systems like gun sights.

In the long term lasers have at least the theoretical potential to make air warfare between developed near impossible,, except for very highly stealthy aircraft, and very low flying cruise missiles.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The current US lead lies in the fact that the US has invested considerable resources in Nd doped YAG ceramic slabs. At the moment, the only other nation I know of that can make such slabs is Japan. China and Russia can't make it (otherwise, heh, some of the disadvantaged nations would have gone to them to procure them.) The US defends its lead through export controls. No one else can use a Nd:YAG rod or slab for military use except for research.

There are of course other nations who are doing laser research, and I would like to name a few, but the classification tag comes up.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Would it be possible that advances in laser technology make missiles mostly useless to reliably attack aircraft and ships? For example a naval cruiser armed with laser point defenses would be very difficult to successfully attack with conventional anti ship missiles. You would probably need to spam dozens of missiles against a single ship to swamp the point defense and achieve a hit.

What would be the most effective ways to counter the laser defense systems? Perhaps armoring a missile might help to make it more difficult to destroy although that would make it heavier and decrease the range. I can also imagine a heavy rain could reduce the effective range of a laser.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Sky Captain wrote:Would it be possible that advances in laser technology make missiles mostly useless to reliably attack aircraft and ships? For example a naval cruiser armed with laser point defenses would be very difficult to successfully attack with conventional anti ship missiles. You would probably need to spam dozens of missiles against a single ship to swamp the point defense and achieve a hit.
That's already true for ships (and task forces) equipped with AEGIS or equivalent; lasers will just raise the threshold from 'dozens' to 'hundreds'. The obvious solution to that is hypervelocity weapons; the faster approach speed gives the beam less dwell time and kinetic penetrators in an unpowered mach 5 dive are much harder to destroy than thin-shelled subsonic missiles packed with explosives and jet/rocket fuel. I would not be surprised if the recent revival of USAF enthusiasm for hypersonic stand-off weapons is at least partly motivated by the need to penetrate future laser point defences.
What would be the most effective ways to counter the laser defense systems?
Some proposed mechanisms to defeat THEL;
A review of the types of technologically feasible countermeasures would include (though not be limited to) the following :
1. Reflective coatings which attempt to reflect a large proportion of the incident radiation which is incident upon the aimed projectiles. This would not necessarily reduce the absorbed incident radiation to such an extent that the projectile is not destroyed - but in combination with other types of countermeasure, reflective coatings would feasibly ensure that target kill is achieved despite the use of THEL.
2. Modification of projectile geometries to take into account the possibility that laser light radiation might be used to neutralize the projectiles. Such geometries might also be concomitant with the purpose of improving the aerodynamic properties of the projectile - thus ensuring that it can travel faster (and, conceivably, would thus be able to rely upon the increased convective dissipation which is associated with heat transfer between the air and the projectile). Note: This includes the possibility of using projectile shapes which are NOT cylindrical. A different missile form would help to ensure that a minimum cross-section surface area is exposed to laser light.
3. As is the case in "hyper-planing torpedoes", which envelope the torpedo in a gaseous envelope so that they may travel at supersonic speeds underwater, it is also found that the use of similar (supersonic) gaseous envelopes around a missile would ensure that a sufficiently cool gas will carry away proportion of the incident radiation energy which is incident upon the missile by both convective and diffusive effects (ie: partial reflection, partial expansion upon being heated by the laser radiation and partial convection due to the temperature increase, though the latter two could arguably be considered as being of similar affect). This would thus also have the effect of a countermeasure to the THEL system. The enveloping gas/substance can be modified so as to consist of fine droplets which carry away a significant proportion of incident radiation and heat on the projectile as they are vaporised (provided, of course, they are chosen so as to absorb the heat radiation corresponding to the frequency of the incident radiation). Note, the larger the gaseous diameter around a cylindrical projectile (measured in terms of its cross section), the disproportionately larger the amount of incident radiation required by the THEL laser to destroy the projectile (consider the volume of the envelope and the highest level of heat dissipation which this corresponds to).
4. An oscillating or chaotic trajectory (one which is difficult to predict, but which will still ensure that the target is killed) will increase the difficulties in the use of the THEL system due to guidance. If guided into windy or turbulent environments, such a chaotic trajectory would also ensure that there more of a turbulent gaseous flow around the missile (though this would be due to the nature movement of air due to the fast moving missile rather than any specifically designed affect as in the case of 3).
5. In a similar vein to the above, a rotating missile will halve the effective area over which the radiation is incident, yet another countermeasure technique or method. This occurs as it is assumed that there would only be one direction from which the THEL radiation would be incident – but this technique has a countermeasure affect even when there are multiple THEL laser radiation sources pointed at the same projectile (assuming that there is some outer boundary area of the missile upon which no laser radiation is incident).
6. Heat Resistant Coating Layers (HRCLs). These are similar to the use of a reflective coating in the sense that coating layers attempt to avoid too much heat causing guidance system malfunction or propellant autoignition within the THEL countermeasure projectile. However, in the case of HRCLs, internal capillaries/coolant mechanisms can be built quite simply into a projective design (consider wrapping the exterior of the projectile in a series of hollow air-pipes which allow air to flow parallel to the fast-moving projectile, but in a manner which does not impede air flow around the projectile - perhaps even aided via the use of a simple internal refrigeration system). Of course the notion of using an internal refrigeration mechanism within a small projectile system is, a priori, not something which seems sensible (though it might very well be economically feasible in the realms of missile design). However, the use of a 'disposable' interior to a THEL type system would ensure that excessively large amounts of heat which are generated due to incident radiation on the missile could be dissipated via the use of 'fall away' layers – such as occurs with the NASA space shuttle as it re-enters the earth's atmosphere (within this type of a design, what occurs is that ceramic heat blocks at the base of the shuttle become red to white hot and are designed to fall off the shuttle, carrying away excess heat with them as they fall – this is clearly a heat dissipation strategy which could be applied as a countermeasure to the THEL type system, and, due to the way in which the heat blocks dissipate large quantities of heat, this method could be applied to artillery as only a thin heat dissipation based ceramic layer would be required for the purposes of carrying away incident heat energy).
By combining all of those you might increase the laser power requirement to destroy the projectile by somewhere between one and two orders of magnitude, but only at significantly increased manufacturing cost and as you say likely reduced range/payload.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I wonder if a thick enough plasma sheath around a missile might do the same thing. Plasma if I recall correctly has a great skin depth and might act as an effective shield. Sort of the theories going around in circles about plasma stealth.

I would also point out that adaptive optics also have relaxation times, and with enough missiles, you could overwhelm the system especially if one employs multiple terminal stage trajectories. Firing lasers in pulsed mode also induces some stress in the ceramic slab. Not even laser designators can be fired for ever, for example.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Starglider wrote:
Sky Captain wrote:Would it be possible that advances in laser technology make missiles mostly useless to reliably attack aircraft and ships? For example a naval cruiser armed with laser point defenses would be very difficult to successfully attack with conventional anti ship missiles. You would probably need to spam dozens of missiles against a single ship to swamp the point defense and achieve a hit.
That's already true for ships (and task forces) equipped with AEGIS or equivalent; lasers will just raise the threshold from 'dozens' to 'hundreds'. The obvious solution to that is hypervelocity weapons; the faster approach speed gives the beam less dwell time and kinetic penetrators in an unpowered mach 5 dive are much harder to destroy than thin-shelled subsonic missiles packed with explosives and jet/rocket fuel. I would not be surprised if the recent revival of USAF enthusiasm for hypersonic stand-off weapons is at least partly motivated by the need to penetrate future laser point defences.

That would mean railguns? I can imagine lots of hypersonic railgun projectiles fired at once would be difficult to intercept. Also swamping the defenses with bunch of railgun shells would be much cheaper than spamming 500 000 dollar missiles.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I wonder if a thick enough plasma sheath around a missile might do the same thing. Plasma if I recall correctly has a great skin depth and might act as an effective shield. Sort of the theories going around in circles about plasma stealth.
Yeah, the big advantage there would be absorbing the radar so they don' see the missile coming. What you don't see, you can't hit.


Sky Captain wrote:
Starglider wrote:That's already true for ships (and task forces) equipped with AEGIS or equivalent; lasers will just raise the threshold from 'dozens' to 'hundreds'. The obvious solution to that is hypervelocity weapons; the faster approach speed gives the beam less dwell time and kinetic penetrators in an unpowered mach 5 dive are much harder to destroy than thin-shelled subsonic missiles packed with explosives and jet/rocket fuel. I would not be surprised if the recent revival of USAF enthusiasm for hypersonic stand-off weapons is at least partly motivated by the need to penetrate future laser point defences.
That would mean railguns? I can imagine lots of hypersonic railgun projectiles fired at once would be difficult to intercept. Also swamping the defenses with bunch of railgun shells would be much cheaper than spamming 500 000 dollar missiles.
He's talking railguns, but that needn't be the case. Russia tested hypersonic ICBMs years ago, one could scale down the technology to allow hypersonic missiles for this purpose.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Sea Skimmer wrote:In the long term lasers have at least the theoretical potential to make air warfare between developed near impossible,, except for very highly stealthy aircraft, and very low flying cruise missiles.
It would also be a game changer for ground combat, as any moderate sized vehicle could eliminate the threat of artillery and mortars in an area. Might work against some tank shells as well, depending on where the respective tech lead.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

These lasers are likely going to be housed in a container and hauled by a trailer. It remains to be seen how compact the system can be, what with the cooling apparatus taking up the most volume.

One may be able to house in a tank of sorts, but it's going to be quite large.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:These lasers are likely going to be housed in a container and hauled by a trailer. It remains to be seen how compact the system can be, what with the cooling apparatus taking up the most volume.

One may be able to house in a tank of sorts, but it's going to be quite large.
In the near term, certainly. But Skimmer was speaking to the long term of solid state lasers, and that is quite a bit more openended. EG the impact metamaterials will have on them, cooling cycles, etc.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Metamaterials are those things with the negative refractive index right?
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Aranfan wrote:Metamaterials are those things with the negative refractive index right?
Yes. They might have potential uses with regard to polarization and wavefront manipulation if they can be made to work.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Ender wrote: He's talking railguns, but that needn't be the case. Russia tested hypersonic ICBMs years ago, one could scale down the technology to allow hypersonic missiles for this purpose.
Every ICBM ever is hypersonic, so are much smaller ballistic missiles, even Army Tactical Missile reached hypersonic speed for a portion of its flight. Problem is even if the ballistic missile releases some kind of hypersonic glider, which is what I think you meant, its high trajectory still makes it an easy target. You simply can’t pull sharp maneuvers at those speeds and at long range the adjustments a laser would have to make to stay on target would be tiny.

Air breathing hypersonic are a promising technology, but unless we can make them fly nap of the earth instead of at 40,000 feet or more they aren’t likely to accomplish much against high end lasers either. Plasma stealth would help… but if that technology ever works then we’ll start dumping lots of money into infrared telescopes. That’s something the US hasn’t paid much attention too so far for ground and naval air defence, but other nations without the worlds best radar have.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Problem is even if the ballistic missile releases some kind of hypersonic glider, which is what I think you meant, its high trajectory still makes it an easy target. You simply can’t pull sharp maneuvers at those speeds and at long range the adjustments a laser would have to make to stay on target would be tiny.
At anything other than point blank range (where slew rate may become relevant) no plausible maneuvering is going to help; tracking and aiming systems will continue to improve until it is effectively impossible to dodge the beam. The advantages of a hypersonic projectile over a subsonic one are a) crossing the laser's engagement range faster (even better if you can fly low enough that horizon is relevant, though that's hard) and (given good enough guidance) b) kinetic kills become viable, resulting in a more robust projectile. This might render the assorted penetration aids mentioned above actually useful; they're unlikely to be of any use to a Tomahawk, but would work rather better on a guided tungsten spear in a hypersonic dive. This is for tactical terminal-defense lasers only; there isn't much you can do if the enemy can hit your missiles in the boost phase and monster static lasers may be able to vaporise practically any projectile.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Air-breathing hypersonic flight at low altitude is impossible without unobtanium. The heat flux is just too high.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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erik_t wrote:Air-breathing hypersonic flight at low altitude is impossible without unobtanium. The heat flux is just too high.
It's possible for missiles and shells, because you can use ablative heat shielding. Obviously this won't work on a full aircraft.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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No, it's not. Ignoring all the other problems, an ablating engine won't work. The pyrolizing phenolics will kill any combustion you were hoping to have (combustion which, I point out, we have major difficulty achieving without these issues).

In the future, please phrase your hypersonic discussions as questions. You are not sufficiently knowledgeable to state these things as facts.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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erik_t wrote:No, it's not. Ignoring all the other problems, an ablating engine won't work.
I'm sorry, I fail reading comprehension, I somehow skipped over the 'air breathing engine' part. I was thinking of a rocket sustainer, which will work fine for the last 30km to the target; the first stage can either be subsonic cruise up to the edge of the laser engagement zone, with a booster to accelerate, or it can be a high-altitude ram/scramjet cruise stage (or indeed, aircraft) with the final stage diving to implement a hi-lo attack profile. I don't know if this tactic is viable in the context of an integrated air defence system, but it may well help in overcoming the point-defence capability of individual laser installations.

That said, SLAM (Project Pluto) was designed to cruise at mach 3.5 at 1000 feet and mach 4.2 at 30,000 feet without using ablative materials. That was with early 60s materials - I don't know if the ramjet combustion is feasible in that envelope, but with modern materials we should be able to make an airframe/intake that can survive mach 4 at treetop height for 100s of km.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Starglider wrote:I'm sorry, I fail reading comprehension, I somehow skipped over the 'air breathing engine' part. I was thinking of a rocket sustainer, which will work fine for the last 30km to the target; the first stage can either be subsonic cruise up to the edge of the laser engagement zone, with a booster to accelerate, or it can be a high-altitude ram/scramjet cruise stage (or indeed, aircraft) with the final stage diving to implement a hi-lo attack profile. I don't know if this tactic is viable in the context of an integrated air defence system, but it may well help in overcoming the point-defence capability of individual laser installations.
I believe one of the one of the objectives of the Aegis system is to defeat missiles such as the Russian Kh-15 which has a terminal stage that if I am not wrong is rated for MACH 5. I do not know if the cruise speed is also MACH 5 however, but I suspect no.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Plasma stealth would help… but if that technology ever works then we’ll start dumping lots of money into infrared telescopes. That’s something the US hasn’t paid much attention too so far for ground and naval air defence, but other nations without the worlds best radar have.
I suspect part of the problem is the difficulty in generating sufficient plasma to sheath the missile, while maintaining the plasma density in flight. The Russians did a lot of experiments with plasma I would imagine, because of their research into Tokomak reactors.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: I believe one of the one of the objectives of the Aegis system is to defeat missiles such as the Russian Kh-15 which has a terminal stage that if I am not wrong is rated for MACH 5. I do not know if the cruise speed is also MACH 5 however, but I suspect no.
The Kh-15 is an air launched ballistic missile; it reaches mach 5 at motor burnout but it will slow down by the time it hits. Peak of the trajectory is some 125,000 feet so aerodynamic heating is not a serious problem. AEGIS was not specifically meant to beat Kh-15 because it didn’t exist at the time AEGIS was developed, but AEGIS always was meant to counter supersonic missiles diving from high altitude, most big Russian and some early US cruise missiles (Kh-22 and Snark for example) dive on the target though from more like 60,000 feet. It was also always meant to counter ballistic missiles in general, but this capability was neutered partway through development least it violate the almighty ABM treaty. That of course has since changed.
I suspect part of the problem is the difficulty in generating sufficient plasma to sheath the missile, while maintaining the plasma density in flight. The Russians did a lot of experiments with plasma I would imagine, because of their research into Tokomak reactors.
[/quote]

To say the least those are problems, indeed it’s thought that generating an effective amount of plasma could consume as much as half the power of an aircraft or missile even with a decently efficient process. The Russians keep claiming they have plasma stealth, but never even begin to demonstrate it on a usable scale, while the rest of the world says that’s a technology at least 50-100 years away.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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What would be effects of a bad weather on a laser weapons? I`m fairly sure things like heavy rain/snow/fog would decrease effective combat range, but how much? Would it be possible that otherwise nearly impenetrable laser defense systems become vulnerable to missiles and aircraft in bad weather. Although such conditions would also negatively affect guidance systems of missiles possibly leading to more missiles missing their targets than in good conditions.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Sky Captain wrote:What would be effects of a bad weather on a laser weapons? I`m fairly sure things like heavy rain/snow/fog would decrease effective combat range, but how much? Would it be possible that otherwise nearly impenetrable laser defense systems become vulnerable to missiles and aircraft in bad weather. Although such conditions would also negatively affect guidance systems of missiles possibly leading to more missiles missing their targets than in good conditions.
I would imagine that it would be pretty bad. Water on the lenses, refraction effects due to the water. The list goes on.

It's possible for missiles to switch to infra-red homing however, if the guidance option is available.
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Re: Scientists invent the Superlaser

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Infrared homing doesn’t see through smoke or thick clouds or rain either. For that matter several radar bands commonly used for weapons also don’t see through rain very well or not at all. That’s one of the reasons why warships had radars that operate in several different bands. Bad weather can and will reduce the effectiveness of just about any weapon systems, even artillery which is often triumphed as being unaffected. Its something you just live with and counter by using a verity of weapons systems. A laser will work very poorly in bad weather, but it certainly can make up for that by being so very effective in clear weather. All this means is a purely laser armed military wont work.

A laser could have some effectiveness in bad visibility though, simply because to an extent the beam can burn away water and small bits of debris (like dust) that are in the path over several very rapid pulses. This would of course mean it takes longer to kill each target.
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