The Dominion vs. SW Clones

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-02-06 08:34pm

The clones from AOTC were strong, I mean really really strong, because of their superior numbers and great training. But one thing I noticed is that it takes half a lifetime to grow and teach a clone. The Dominion on DS9 could make a clone in a Really Short time, like a day or hour or something like that. Now I am pretty sure than in a battle between the Jem'Hadar and Clones, the Jem'Hadar would win. This is not because I am all for Star Trek, it is because of how they are bred.

The Jem'Hadar are bred for War, pure and simple. Killing is like Sex for them. They crave it, they fight all the time. They will fight and die for the Founders without question, and more than half of them have never seen a Founder. They have coded into their DNA the ability to Cloak or "Shroud" (SP) as they call it. So they can hide very easy. They are super strong compared to a human, but not invincible.

There tactics are great as well. They will send in Holographic soldiers to trick the Enemy into attacking, this gives away your position, strengths, and numbers. And they do not lose a single soldier. They set up mines called Houdinis, anti-personnel mines that "hide" in subspace, then explode without warning. They could be anywhere.

Another threat is the Founders themselves. They can turn into anything. A pot, a dog, a mouse, a Clone Stormtrooper! They could blend into a wall or a rock face. They form bladed weapons with there arms and such. They can turn to liquid and ooze where you cant get to. One thing they like to do is what the Yuuzhan Vong do. Send spies to Politically break things down there. One could replace an Admiral or Vader (well not replace Vader, but if a trooper ran into a fake Vader, would you be to afraid to shoot and hit the REAL Vader? Not a risk I would take)

Oh, This is all based around a ground combat like in Guerrilla war on planet AR-558, not full scale, Armies walking towards the other Armies, like in AOTC. More like ROTJ.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-06 08:37pm

For shock troopers Jem'Hadar infantry are superb. They are fanatically loyal to their superiors even when they know they are being betrayed. They will sacrafice their lives so that their superiors will live. They can be grown in days. They are on average much stronger then Humans. If Thrawn had access to such clones when he attacked the New Republic, it is possible the NR would have failed. Such a resource is very nice to have. Additionally you have total control because of their adiction to White. It doesn't make them great soldiers, but they are very useful and fanatically loyal cannon fodder troops, something very hard to come by.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-02-06 08:41pm

Oh yes, the white. People will say, cut off the white and they will die. This is far from it. They will become crazy and fight harder than they did before. They will kill everything, and then themselves.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-06 08:41pm

But they don't think, They are repeatly beaten by many diffrent Non-Charater Shielded Federation soliders

May I remind you that the Jem'Hadar are one of the few things Red-Shirts have ever succesfuly killed?

But back to the main point, While excellent Shock Troops, they are terrible regular troops, and their lack of armor and Artillery means the Clone-Troopers wipe the deck with them every time

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-06 08:44pm

Jem'Hadar tactics were moronic.

The "Hondini" mines were a failure. They only killed a random person, they didn't deny the area.

And don't forget their great tactic of shouting loudly and a invantry charge.

The Jem'Hadar would charge the Clones and promptly be slaughtered by repeating blasters.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-02-06 08:45pm

Most likely true. But in Guerrilla war like on a planet like AR-558, there are other factors that come in. Although they do not have Armor, their dark color makes them easy to hide, plus their cloaking ability. Storm Troopers have white armor, easy to see. Even in ROTJ they had white, in a Forrest planet. White on Hoth is good, but not on Endor or AR-558.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-06 08:48pm

Sovereign wrote:Most likely true. But in Guerrilla war like on a planet like AR-558, there are other factors that come in. Although they do not have Armor, their dark color makes them easy to hide, plus their cloaking ability. Storm Troopers have white armor, easy to see. Even in ROTJ they had white, in a Forrest planet. White on Hoth is good, but not on Endor or AR-558.

The Machine Gun (or in this case Repeating Blaster) is a HUGE advantage. Basically they could set up a defensive position and mow down advancing Jemmies.

And the dark color/cloaking could be beaten by built in sensors in the Clone Armour.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-06 08:49pm

Oh and RESPOND
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-02-06 08:49pm

And don't forget their great tactic of shouting loudly and a invantry charge.

really depends on the Troopers reflex. In any battle, ambush is deadly.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-06 08:49pm

Why bother cutting off the white? The clone troopers have better armor, weaponry and aim. They have vision-enhanced helmets which allow them to fire accurately in harsh environments, while the Jem'Hadar don't have any kind of head gear to speak of (from my recollection; feel free to correct me on this). The Jem'Hadar's artillery support is weak/non-existent when compared to that of the clone troopers. Sure, the Jem'Hadar may be fanatically loyal, but the clone troopers obey any order without question without the need for addiction to narcotics. A brutally efficient, technologically superior fighting force like the clone troopers would mop the floor with the Jem'Hadar.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-06 08:50pm

Storm Troopers have white armor, easy to see. Even in ROTJ they had white, in a Forrest planet. White on Hoth is good, but not on Endor or AR-558.

We are talking about Clone Troopers not Storm Troopers, The Cloners had better sensors and thicker armor, plus more powerful weapons, They are War Troops not a Security/Police Force

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-06 08:53pm

Sovereign wrote:
And don't forget their great tactic of shouting loudly and a invantry charge.
really depends on the Troopers reflex. In any battle, ambush is deadly.

Which is why war cries went out of style.

And you're ignoring the point. Replace the Feds with WWII Germans with Mg42s and the Jemmies would be slaughtered.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-06 08:56pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Storm Troopers have white armor, easy to see. Even in ROTJ they had white, in a Forrest planet. White on Hoth is good, but not on Endor or AR-558.
We are talking about Clone Troopers not Storm Troopers, The Cloners had better sensors and thicker armor, plus more powerful weapons, They are War Troops not a Security/Police Force

While clone trooper armor was white, this does nothing to negate the monstrous advantages in artillery, weaponry and visual acuity that the clone troopers possess.

Need I remind anyone that the clones had the droid army in full retreat in about 20 minutes? And the droid army had comparable (if not greater; droids can be mass-produced much more easily than clones) numbers and artillery. The Jem'Hadar would last less than 5.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-02-06 09:00pm

Need I remind anyone that the clones had the droid army in full retreat in about 20 minutes?

That was Army marches towards Army, not Guerrilla War.

They are War Troops not a Security/Police Force

Good point.

And you're ignoring the point. Replace the Feds with WWII Germans with Mg42s and the Jemmies would be slaughtered.

Thats a little too far back in history. The Jem'Hadar are still stronger than that.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-06 09:01pm

Just popped my head in to say:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-02-06 09:04pm

Sovereign wrote:The clones from AOTC were strong, I mean really really strong, because of their superior numbers and great training. But one thing I noticed is that it takes half a lifetime to grow and teach a clone.

First, what world do you live in that 10 years is half a life time? Secondly did you not notice that the clones were in all stages of devolpment, they just didn't put 100,000 embryos in a jar, and then they all poped out 10 years later. EU material says it takes a year to devolp a fully grown clone, and much shorter if in the absence of the force.

The Dominion on DS9 could make a clone in a Really Short time, like a day or hour or something like that.

Good to know your basing you assumtions of hard facts and evidence.

Now I am pretty sure than in a battle between the Jem'Hadar and Clones, the Jem'Hadar would win. This is not because I am all for Star Trek, it is because of how they are bred.

Clonetroopers are bred for war as well, they use a expert gun fighter as the templat, and then they train them in different stages of there life. They are just killing machines, they are highly trained soldiers with natural talent.

The Jem'Hadar are bred for War, pure and simple.

So are CTs.

Killing is like Sex for them. They crave it, they fight all the time.

Good to know that they are only thinking about blood thirsty killing and not things like tactics.

They will fight and die for the Founders without question, and more than half of them have never seen a Founder.

CTs are raised to be 100% loyal.

They have coded into their DNA the ability to Cloak or "Shroud" (SP) as they call it. So they can hide very easy.

CTs have sensors in their helmet, allowing them to fight even in the poisonous cloud from the Trade Federation command ship.

They are super strong compared to a human, but not invincible.

Notice the size of guns the CTs were carrying and weren't even slowed down by?

There tactics are great as well. They will send in Holographic soldiers to trick the Enemy into attacking, this gives away your position, strengths, and numbers.

If the holograms even fool their sensors, especially if they are looking for cloaked soldiers.

And they do not lose a single soldier.

Or kill a single one.

They set up mines called Houdinis, anti-personnel mines that "hide" in subspace, then explode without warning. They could be anywhere.

Anti-personnel? Like shrapenal? Shrapenal that would be almost to entirely useless against their armor?

Another threat is the Founders themselves.

When have the founders ever been seen in combat?

They can turn into anything. A pot, a dog, a mouse, a Clone Stormtrooper! They could blend into a wall or a rock face. They form bladed weapons with there arms and such. They can turn to liquid and ooze where you cant get to.

And meat the business end of a chemical weapon, once faced with such a threat, I doubt they would think twice before chemically bombing the whole place, then send in their nice air tight armored stormies.

One thing they like to do is what the Yuuzhan Vong do. Send spies to Politically break things down there. One could replace an Admiral or Vader (well not replace Vader, but if a trooper ran into a fake Vader, would you be to afraid to shoot and hit the REAL Vader? Not a risk I would take)

Nice mid-opening arguement change there, remember you said a guerrela battle on AR-588, in a real all out war the dominion would quickly be slagged and all the founders would be come are pathetic terrorist.

Oh, This is all based around a ground combat like in Guerrilla war on planet AR-558, not full scale, Armies walking towards the other Armies, like in AOTC. More like ROTJ.

And then you go right back to the original. Which one is it?

Unfortunately, Sov, the Jem'hadar don't stand a chance, the clonies have shrapenal and chemical protection, which the Jem'hadar and changlings do not and chemical weaponry to use against them. The clonies have artilery, mech, and air support. They are better trained and just as fearless.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-06 09:07pm

Ah so you once again show no proof(Germans having better tactics and distribution of military, but hey because they are older the Jem'hader will crush them

Too bad the guerilla quote is a laughable deflection.

Also just as a reminder...you'll remember this.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-02-06 09:08pm

Sovereign wrote:The clones from AOTC were strong, I mean really really strong, because of their superior numbers and great training. But one thing I noticed is that it takes half a lifetime to grow and teach a clone. The Dominion on DS9 could make a clone in a Really Short time, like a day or hour or something like that. Now I am pretty sure than in a battle between the Jem'Hadar and Clones, the Jem'Hadar would win. This is not because I am all for Star Trek, it is because of how they are bred.

Production rates will have hardly anything to do with taking AR-558. As it is, if we count a "unit" as a single soldier, the Republic has 200,000 clones.

The Jem'Hadar are bred for War, pure and simple. Killing is like Sex for them. They crave it, they fight all the time. They will fight and die for the Founders without question, and more than half of them have never seen a Founder. They have coded into their DNA the ability to Cloak or "Shroud" (SP) as they call it. So they can hide very easy. They are super strong compared to a human, but not invincible.

Oh geez, and here I thought the cloneswerebred for war, my mistake. Cloaking can be detected by thermal scans, and if not (unlikley) I'm sure the footprints in the sand'll give them away.

There tactics are great as well. They will send in Holographic soldiers to trick the Enemy into attacking, this gives away your position, strengths, and numbers. And they do not lose a single soldier. They set up mines called Houdinis, anti-personnel mines that "hide" in subspace, then explode without warning. They could be anywhere.

I'm sure by "tactics" you mean screaming loudly and running at the enemy position. Holograms will be able to be detected by the "flicker" ie-any short time when the hologram isn't active in a certain area (even for a slpit second). The mines you speak of appear randomly at unspecific time intervals, hardly devastating.

Might I add the clone troops have superior armor, sensors (in their helmets), weapons, artillery, air support, ect.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-06 09:10pm

Gentlemen, PLEASE, there is no other reason to respond to him except with this:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

What ever he posts whatever nonsense he spouts should only be met with this:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-06 09:13pm

Sovereign wrote:The Jem'Hadar are bred for War, pure and simple.

So are clone troopers, dumbass. The purpose behind the construction of something does not mean that it is good at what it is intended to do.

Killing is like Sex for them. They crave it, they fight all the time. They will fight and die for the Founders without question, and more than half of them have never seen a Founder. They have coded into their DNA the ability to Cloak or "Shroud" (SP) as they call it. So they can hide very easy. They are super strong compared to a human, but not invincible.

They are still visible to passive IR scans. They just can't be detected by the human eye. That is not an advantage over clone troopers.

There tactics are great as well. They will send in Holographic soldiers to trick the Enemy into attacking, this gives away your position, strengths, and numbers.

LMAO! The Jem'Hadar tactics qualify as "great?" Moreover, their holograms would be easily detected by clone troopers, who have helmets with sensors and passive infrared systems.

And they do not lose a single soldier. They set up mines called Houdinis, anti-personnel mines that "hide" in subspace, then explode without warning. They could be anywhere.

The Houdinis are NOT as effective as normal mines, because they do not prevent an enemy from occupying a piece of territory. They merely annoy the enemy. Moreover, the Jem'Hadar have lost MANY soldiers in DS9.

Another threat is the Founders themselves. They can turn into anything. A pot, a dog, a mouse, a Clone Stormtrooper! They could blend into a wall or a rock face. They form bladed weapons with there arms and such. They can turn to liquid and ooze where you cant get to. One thing they like to do is what the Yuuzhan Vong do. Send spies to Politically break things down there. One could replace an Admiral or Vader (well not replace Vader, but if a trooper ran into a fake Vader, would you be to afraid to shoot and hit the REAL Vader? Not a risk I would take)

Is this thread about the Jem'Hadar or the Founders?

Oh, This is all based around a ground combat like in Guerrilla war on planet AR-558, not full scale, Armies walking towards the other Armies, like in AOTC. More like ROTJ.

So what? The clone troopers win.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-02-06 09:14pm

I am not saying that they dont have all this stuff in there helmets, but, does anybody have a pic of the inside of one, that shows all this stuff? Mechs are not in this battle either. I openly said they would be slaughtered in Army vs Army, that is why I said Guerrilla War on AR-558 instead. And for some small planet, they would not use 200,000 troops. How many are in a small unit such as this?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-06 09:15pm

Sovereign wrote:Oh yes, the white. People will say, cut off the white and they will die. This is far from it. They will become crazy and fight harder than they did before. They will kill everything, and then themselves.

Erm, no. The UFP's tactic was to cut off their supply of ketracel white. It worked. End of story.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-06 09:15pm

Stravo wrote:Gentlemen, PLEASE, there is no other reason to respond to him except with this:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

What ever he posts whatever nonsense he spouts should only be met with this:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

I'm not responding to him so much as I am responding to the topic.

That said, Jem'Hadar in their ST form are good shock soldiers. Jem'Hadar given a little more formal training and integrated into a good combined arms ground based military will be excelent. They will have better tactics, have access to better weapons, and will benefit from support weaponry. Imagine if the Republic Clone Army had both standard Clone Troopers and the Jem'Hadar for shock troops. You get say 250,000 normal clones and another 1 million+ of shock troops as well. Thats a decided advantage having such a vast source of soldiers. Hell, they don't just have to be shock troops. They can be used as filler starship crew quite well.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-02-06 09:18pm

Sovereign wrote:I am not saying that they dont have all this stuff in there helmets, but, does anybody have a pic of the inside of one, that shows all this stuff? Mechs are not in this battle either. I openly said they would be slaughtered in Army vs Army, that is why I said Guerrilla War on AR-558 instead. And for some small planet, they would not use 200,000 troops. How many are in a small unit such as this?

I'm pretty sure the OT:VD has a pic on the inside of a stormies helmet. Should be similar.

And so what if this is guerrila war? Since when does guerrila war = no artillery/mechs allowed! IIRC the Rebels were fighting guerrila style on Endor and there still was AT-STs roaming about. Since AR-558 isn't heavily forrested, this makes even more possibilites...

And how do you know how many troops they would send? I'm sure they've got plenty to spare. Unless you'd like to assume the size fo the force sent to it in DS9. Otherwise I see no reason NOT to send 200,000 troops.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-06 09:19pm

Alyeska wrote:I'm not responding to him so much as I am responding to the topic.

That said, Jem'Hadar in their ST form are good shock soldiers. Jem'Hadar given a little more formal training and integrated into a good combined arms ground based military will be excelent. They will have better tactics, have access to better weapons, and will benefit from support weaponry. Imagine if the Republic Clone Army had both standard Clone Troopers and the Jem'Hadar for shock troops. You get say 250,000 normal clones and another 1 million+ of shock troops as well. Thats a decided advantage having such a vast source of soldiers. Hell, they don't just have to be shock troops. They can be used as filler starship crew quite well.

True. Both offer advantages. In this case (since the poorly defined scenario seems to indicate parity of numbers), the Clones win. The Jem'Hadar can only win with a large numbers advantage.

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