Dawn of War 2 novel

[dragon]

Saw this at the local book store and having played the game its based on is it worth it to pick up the book.

[Aaron]

Saw this at the local book store and having played the game its based on is it worth it to pick up the book.

I haven't read any of Chris Roberson's work, actually I've never seen his name before on any BL novels but the original DoW novels were absolute shite. They were written in such a fashion that I don't think Goto had any familiarity with the universe or back story before he started. Whether these are the same or not, I couldn't say but I'm not exactly filled with hope.

[Samuel]

Saw this at the local book store and having played the game its based on is it worth it to pick up the book.

I haven't read any of Chris Roberson's work, actually I've never seen his name before on any BL novels but the original DoW novels were absolute shite. They were written in such a fashion that I don't think Goto had any familiarity with the universe or back story before he started. Whether these are the same or not, I couldn't say but I'm not exactly filled with hope.

I was thinking the same thing, but the 2 amazon reviews are different. Wheter they are truthful or advertising I cannot say. Maybe the local borders has a copy I can skim.

[Tanasinn]

Goto is legendarily bad, yes. SPESS MEHRENS with multilasers, musings over Eldar kidneys, destroying gravtanks with sticks...

[Connor MacLeod]

How manyy people who are criticizing him have actually read his works? The worst of his IMHO was "Eldar Prophecy" and that was because it was a poor attempt at an Eldar version of Dune. He's by no means a great author, but he's hardly the worst 40K author there was. Far worse IMHO are the Soul Drinkers novels or Andy Hoare's Rogue Trader novels (Age of Sail in space - literally - AND Tau wanking.). The First DoW novel actually wasn't bad (it wasn't great either) but it was definitely the best of that parrticular series (the problems are likely because it seemed to closely follow the DoW game, which in itself isn't the best characterization of 40K I can think of.

And if you want to critize "not knowing the universe" I take it noone has read, say, James Swallow? He's generally depicted 40K in a far odder way than Goto has.

As for the DoW2 novel itself, I grabbed it and looked it over. Its okay but nothing spectacular. Some interesting technical tidbits but It's not going to be worth much unless youw ant to follow the exploits of the Blood Ravens some more without having to actually deal directly with Angelos (which may actually be a good point in the novel.)

Otherwise it strikes me as a perfectly average novel.

[Connor MacLeod]

Goto is legendarily bad, yes. SPESS MEHRENS with multilasers,

And what the fuck makes that a "problem?" If they can do man portable lascannon there's no reason they couldn't have man-portable multilasers. For fuck's sake, Grey Hunter had something similar as did the Ian Watson short story Warped Stars (which had an entire fucking Chapter of Space Marines using solely lasweapons).

It actually makes sense that the Space Marines might want to employ man-portable laser weapons for some purposes. Lasweapons can have advantages that bolt (or other) weapons don't in some situations (versatility and lack of recoil for example) that would make them quite useful.

musings over Eldar kidneys,

Still doesn't beat the stuff in Hoare's Rogue Trader novels. I

destroying gravtanks with sticks...

Perhaps you could be more specific about which incident from which novel you are referring to?

[Tanasinn]

And what the fuck makes that a "problem?" If they can do man portable lascannon there's no reason they couldn't have man-portable multilasers.

It would be less a problem if Goto wasn't disconnected in general from WH40k canon and if the multilaser wasn't nearly exclusively depicted as a large weapon mounted on an IFV. The use of multilasers as a personal weapon is also depicted as something not worthy of comment.

Still doesn't beat the stuff in Hoare's Rogue Trader novels.

No argument there.

Perhaps you could be more specific about which incident from which novel you are referring to?

It was one of the Dawn of War books - I can't remember which one specifically. Some primitive humans foil an Eldar grav-tank by getting rocks into its air intakes. (I don't know why I said sticks. It's been a while.)


Goto, I agree, is far from the worst 40k author and far from the worst sci-fi author, but his stuff is still pretty poor. He seems to be a fan favorite to pick on, as well. Hence the "legendarily."

[Connor MacLeod]

It would be less a problem if Goto wasn't disconnected in general from WH40k canon and if the multilaser wasn't nearly exclusively depicted as a large weapon mounted on an IFV. The use of multilasers as a personal weapon is also depicted as something not worthy of comment.

Oh, so basically if everything in the books don't 100% follow the content of the game then the author is somehow "disconnected from WH40K?" Because if thats teh case you can apply it to MOST of the BL authors (anyone who dares to suggest more than a million worlds in the Imperium, anything Abnett or Sandy Mitchell write in general, Graham McNeill and his hardon for older material, etc.)

If you actually look at it logically there's no reason why your statement should hold true, since we know lascannons can exist both as a man porrtable AND vehicle mounted type (Hell the vechile mounted types often result from the application of man porttable types.) Same for autocannons and heavy bolters too.

It was one of the Dawn of War books - I can't remember which one specifically. Some primitive humans foil an Eldar grav-tank by getting rocks into its air intakes. (I don't know why I said sticks. It's been a while.)

Its from the second novel, but I don't see why you're complaining about this. Is jamming up intakes (or gun barrels, which is mentioned) or attacking anyone who steps out of a vehicle (which is also mentioned) something the Eldar are somehow completeyl and uttelry immune to for some reason?

I should also note that from a purely "40K" standpoint, this sort of tactic probably WOULD fit in with the tabletop (right up whtere with the idea of cavalry and feral troopers and whatnot.) Besdes I'm pretty sure at least one of those tribseman was a psyker as I recall it.

Goto, I agree, is far from the worst 40k author and far from the worst sci-fi author, but his stuff is still pretty poor. He seems to be a fan favorite to pick on, as well. Hence the "legendarily."

I see, so basically Goto's reputation comes from "Alot of fans don't like him", and we should all buy into that because, as we all know, the general consensus of fandom must always be right?

[Aaron]

How manyy people who are criticizing him have actually read his works? The worst of his IMHO was "Eldar Prophecy" and that was because it was a poor attempt at an Eldar version of Dune. He's by no means a great author, but he's hardly the worst 40K author there was.

I actually have the DoW omnibus sitting on my shelf. My primary complaint is that the characters didn't act like they were in WH40K, the Guard especially in the first novel.

Edit: Space Marines using las or weapons outside their usual is actually a good thing from where I stand, I often wondered why the rest of the Imperium uses them but there not good enough for the SM.

Far worse IMHO are the Soul Drinkers novels or Andy Hoare's Rogue Trader novels (Age of Sail in space - literally - AND Tau wanking.). The First DoW novel actually wasn't bad (it wasn't great either) but it was definitely the best of that parrticular series (the problems are likely because it seemed to closely follow the DoW game, which in itself isn't the best characterization of 40K I can think of.

I haven't read the Rogue Trader novels (there always out of stock) but I have the Soul Drinkers series and I agree, it is horrible.

And if you want to critize "not knowing the universe" I take it noone has read, say, James Swallow? He's generally depicted 40K in a far odder way than Goto has.

The Flight of the Eisenstein was excellent IMO but Faith and Fire wasn't that great. I've read the free extract of the Blood Angels series on BL but it didn't really strike my fancy.

As for the DoW2 novel itself, I grabbed it and looked it over. Its okay but nothing spectacular. Some interesting technical tidbits but It's not going to be worth much unless youw ant to follow the exploits of the Blood Ravens some more without having to actually deal directly with Angelos (which may actually be a good point in the novel.)

Otherwise it strikes me as a perfectly average novel.

I might pick it up then, I do like the Blood Ravens or the concept of a Librarian heavy chapter at any rate.

[white_rabbit]

To be blunt, its boring as fuck.

I was awestruck at the authors ability to make superhuman power armoured killing machines murderising giant fungus monsters and alien dinosaurs actually boring.

One funny bit jumps out in the first few chapters, one of the Marines is musing on how awesome his armour is, and that he could survive a close pass to the Photosphere of a star.

I might pick it up then, I do like the Blood Ravens or the concept of a Librarian heavy chapter at any rate.

You know, we don't actually every see the whole Librarian heavy thing come out in a Blood Ravens novel.

SILLY CODEX WHORE
It was one of the Dawn of War books - I can't remember which one specifically. Some primitive humans foil an Eldar grav-tank by getting rocks into its air intakes. (I don't know why I said sticks. It's been a while.)

I'm pretty certain slinging shit into the air intake vents of modern aircraft can totally fuck their day up as well. Don't aircraft carrier crews do intensive inspections of their landing decks specifically to avoid that sort of thing ?

SILLY FUCKING CODEX WHORE
It would be less a problem if Goto wasn't disconnected in general from WH40k canon and if the multilaser wasn't nearly exclusively depicted as a large weapon mounted on an IFV. The use of multilasers as a personal weapon is also depicted as something not worthy of comment.

This is just fucking madness, its okay for Space Marines to lug around a fucking plasma cannon, but multilasers ? Thats not in the codex, so its goddamn impossible.

Fucking codex whores.

KENDALL
I haven't read the Rogue Trader novels (there always out of stock) but I have the Soul Drinkers series and I agree, it is horrible.

Ignoring the deeply irritating character of Sarpedon, and the dumb fucking nonsense of the Soul Drinkers current ethos, what stabs my brain every time I read it in a Ben Counter novel is the Plasma guns. Supersoakers of doom. *pukes*

He manages to combine pure awesome with some really dumb shit, and its a question of which book manages to tip the scales in the right direction.

If you want to read a CS Goto book that is genuinely totally fucking boring, or a short story which really IS actually complete bullshit, I suggest you read Eldar Prophecy, which put me to sleep, and a short story in a recent anthology, whose name escapes me, which had the Eldar wipe out nearly an entire company of Dark Angels, plus First Company support, while a Vindicare watched, then sniped the Exarch in charge.

Apparently so they could send a message......Frankly I think a better message to send would have been killing the fucking lot of them with your uber sniper rifle, and not having the DA suffer a massive loss of manpower and equipment. At least James Swallow gives us a long story arc and decent explaination when he fucking murderises vast chunks of a major chapter!

[Aaron]

You know, we don't actually every see the whole Librarian heavy thing come out in a Blood Ravens novel.

That is disappointing.

I'm pretty certain slinging shit into the air intake vents of modern aircraft can totally fuck their day up as well. Don't aircraft carrier crews do intensive inspections of their landing decks specifically to avoid that sort of thing ?

Anywhere a jet turbine is in operation should be checked and cleared for a foreign object. Shredding a turbine and grounding a millions+ dollar aircraft is somewhat of a bad thing.

Ignoring the deeply irritating character of Sarpedon, and the dumb fucking nonsense of the Soul Drinkers current ethos, what stabs my brain every time I read it in a Ben Counter novel is the Plasma guns. Supersoakers of doom. *pukes*

He manages to combine pure awesome with some really dumb shit, and its a question of which book manages to tip the scales in the right direction.

Kind of defeats the purpose of carrying both a flamer and a plasma gun if they both do the same thing.

If you want to read a CS Goto book that is genuinely totally fucking boring, or a short story which really IS actually complete bullshit, I suggest you read Eldar Prophecy, which put me to sleep, and a short story in a recent anthology, whose name escapes me, which had the Eldar wipe out nearly an entire company of Dark Angels, plus First Company support, while a Vindicare watched, then sniped the Exarch in charge.

Apparently so they could send a message......Frankly I think a better message to send would have been killing the fucking lot of them with your uber sniper rifle, and not having the DA suffer a massive loss of manpower and equipment. At least James Swallow gives us a long story arc and decent explaination when he fucking murderises vast chunks of a major chapter!

Bit of a tangent but I can't stand the Eldar and it's one of the reasons why the last book in The Soul Drinkers Omnibus is so bad, IMO

[NecronLord]

Is it true that Eldar Prophecy has inherited, noble farseers on Kaelor? Because that is a major variant from every other craftworld, where anyone seems to be able to walk any path they've the ability for.

[Kuja]

CS Goto's work, in my opinion, ranges from good to the lesser side of mediocre. The guy's one falling-down-point, (and this is subjective, I know) is that the bastard couldn't end a book on a fucking positive note if his life depended on it. Everything I've read of his, it seems, ends on a massive downer, not even a very well-executed one, which just makes me shelve his books.

Yeah, and I despise his eldar too.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is it true that Eldar Prophecy has inherited, noble farseers on Kaelor? Because that is a major variant from every other craftworld, where anyone seems to be able to walk any path they've the ability for.

From my recollection last year (and I've blocked that out) yeah I think so. Mind you as I recall there was some conjecture as to whether this was a genuine craftworld or not. I dont really want to go through and dig into it again - it was self contained enough I think that you can dismiss it as legend if you had to lol.

As for ben counter and his super-soaker plasma weapons, ,yeah that is a pain in the ass and I dont know how the fuck I'd reconcile it (something electrothermal maybe - some sort of "augmented" flamethrower - not that I think that'd make sense - ) but he's far from the only author to make that screw up either. And its not as if 40K plasma wasn't described as bizarre shit to begin with even in the game fluff.

Most authors though will range from "good" to "shit" though depending on the work in question. Even Abnett has his down points and I think alot of people tend to regard him as high quality. Counter has his high points too, and I can say that Hoare had a work in the Tactica Imperialis book and that wasn't bad the way the Rogue Trader novels were.

As far as Goto's endings go I think that depends on how he's writing. When it comes to Eldar stuff he invariably seems to want to fuck it up somehow. It seems impossible for him not to. Wheras when its his precious blood ravens he seems to change position (A chapter run by authorial fiat that can only be outdone by the Soul Drinkers).

Mind yo u, Salvation had a pretty fucked up ending too.

Bit of a tangent but I can't stand the Eldar and it's one of the reasons why the last book in The Soul Drinkers Omnibus is so bad, IMO

Depends on which angle he's writing. He really didn't write much on the Dark Eldar side of things other than to have a dsiposable enemy to throw the Imperial Guard forces at (and thereby have someone Sarpedon's Soul Drinkers could come along and screw over). It really ticked me off the way the Guard forces got screwed over in that book.

My beef tends to be that ever chapter that shows up in the Soul Drinkers novel aside from the Soul Drinkers are invariably total assholes, and the Soul Drinkers are incompetent and easily manipulated. Chapter War is the worst of the lot so far though.

What happens next I admit I am curious to see since we're supposed to be getting the next chapter of that saga *Shudder8 next week.

[Ryan Thunder]

Goto is legendarily bad, yes. SPESS MEHRENS with multilasers,

And what the fuck makes that a "problem?"

He had guys in Terminator armour doing backflips. [/thread]

[NecronLord]

Which is probably based on the supposed ability of knights in armour to do the same thing - they often have the same reputation as terminators (clunky, unmanouverable, and so on). Frankly, so long as they weren't doing it in battle, I approve.


No, I dislike Goto for outright making up a C'tan, that's supposedly killed at the end of the book... (Much like Last Stand of the Firebrands, but that at least did it with some style)

[Chris OFarrell]

Luckily, the newest edition of 40K IIRC makes a strong suggestion that this could easily have just been a Necron Lord with delusions of grandeur.

And I have the DOW Omnibus as well.

I find parts of them good. For example, I do love the double nature of the Blood Ravens as scholars and warriors, where their Librarians are valued even more for their scholarly skills, as their combat expertise. The competent, professional and 'smart' warrior monk style they have, which, at least in the Second Book and to a degree in the Third, helps lead them out of very complex situations without resorting to the 'BASH! SMASH! KILL!' of some of the more well known Astartes Chapters, even earning the grudging respect of the Eldar Harliquins, as well as a little bit more about the story of the Eldar fighting the Necrons back in the good ole days, and the story of the Blades of Vaul they used.

There are other parts I found absurd, especially the Necron Wanking in the third book, the inability for ANY of the books to end with something less GRIMDARK then the previous book, and the retonned ending to DOW, where the Inquisitor and Colonel of the Guard both HAVE to fall to Chaos, a great deal of the non Marine characters BS...and of course, turning a Battlebarge into an Eclipse class SSD at the end of the Second Book...

So I'll have at least a LOOK at the DOW II novel...

[Ryan Thunder]

Which is probably based on the supposed ability of knights in armour to do the same thing - they often have the same reputation as terminators (clunky, unmanouverable, and so on). Frankly, so long as they weren't doing it in battle, I approve.

Are you quite sure about that?


I'd like to see one of these guys try to touch their own shoulders, never mind backflip.

[NecronLord]

Congratulations. You've picked something that's not even a space marine.



This is a space marine terminator. From the same bloody page you got that from.

[Ryan Thunder]

The differences appear to be cosmetic. It's not like I've never seen a fucking Terminator before.

And the same criticism still applies.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, I realize they're Custodes, but if anything those would be more maneuverable, right?

[Ford Prefect]

Doing a backflip is just a matter of turning end over end, and getting high enough to make a full revolution. The explosive power of a Terminator's actuators is probably extremely high simply due to there being more of it compared to a suit of Power Armour. The landing would be interesting though.

[Aaron]

The differences appear to be cosmetic. It's not like I've never seen a fucking Terminator before.

And the same criticism still applies.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, I realize they're Custodes, but if anything those would be more maneuverable, right?

I'm curious as to your reasoning here. Why would a suit of SM Terminator armor not be able to do a back flip? They are consistently portrayed in the novels (I know nothing of the codex) as being stronger then a conventional suit, the users just as fast and generally having the same abilities. For all the talk of them being bulky (they are), clumsy and slow, in the novels they are not portrayed all that different then the regular SM's.

[Ryan Thunder]

The differences appear to be cosmetic. It's not like I've never seen a fucking Terminator before.

And the same criticism still applies.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, I realize they're Custodes, but if anything those would be more maneuverable, right?

I'm curious as to your reasoning here. Why would a suit of SM Terminator armor not be able to do a back flip? They are consistently portrayed in the novels (I know nothing of the codex) as being stronger then a conventional suit, the users just as fast and generally having the same abilities. For all the talk of them being bulky (they are), clumsy and slow, in the novels they are not portrayed all that different then the regular SM's.

Could you imagine doing acrobatics of any sort in something so restrictive? They're portrayed that way by author's fiat. Zero consideration is given to the inherent limitations of something that large, heavy, and bulky.

I wouldn't necessarily call them clumsy. Just--frakking huge. It'd be like trying to type with a boxing glove on, in the "precise but not accurate" sort of way.

If you want to go the other way, I suppose you could say that the artists/modellers clearly have no idea what they're drawing/modelling. All of them.

[Aaron]

Could you imagine doing acrobatics of any sort in something so restrictive? They're portrayed that way by author's fiat. Zero consideration is given to the inherent limitations of something that large, heavy, and bulky.

Actually I can, it would be pretty consistent with the tech the SM's use and I don't recall any thing in the fluff on Terminators being unable to do things they could do with out armor.

Why you would want to do one is another story, I can't think of any reason to do one that couldn't be better served by taking cover or just using their super-human running abilities.

I wouldn't necessarily call them clumsy. Just--frakking huge. It'd be like trying to type with a boxing glove on.

And yet, despite being large, SM armor both standard and Terminator is consistently mentioned to be dexterous.

If you want to go the other way, I suppose you could say that the artists/modellers clearly have no idea what they're drawing/modelling. All of them.

GW's art isn't always consistent .

[Connor MacLeod]

You can float in some cases of Space Marine armour (I remember that from one of the Bill King SM novels) and they can run freaking fast and react within tenths of a second (again Spacec wolf novels) so yeah that shit is pretty agile. Terminator armour is bulkier, but its basically a exo-frame rather than just "augmented armor"

Besides I bet if you stuck shit like suspensors on the armour it would be alot less bulky (Terminators had suspensors on their gear as I remember it, and Goto is one of those 40K authors with a hardon for the older editions too.)