nBSG GRIMDARK

[Havok]

So I have seen many, many people complain about the GRIMDARK, or "grittiness" of the series. A simple question.

How exactly would you portray a show where the premise is that 60,000 survivors of a human holocaust are being ruthlessly hunted down to be exterminated and are blindly chasing false hopes and mythical planets as their only chance of survival and are fighting for their lives at every turn, in a manner that doesn't qualify it as "GRIMDARK"?

If you say oBSG, you get cyberpunched in the face.

[DrMckay]

BSG 1980?


Kidding. to retain realism and interesting characters while still having a valid plot, I'd shoot for a series with tones similar to Aaron Allston's Wraith Squadron Series. Many of the characters have genuine emotional problems, Wedge's survivor's guilt, Kell's in-cockpit performance anxiety, Face's self-loathing at being used for propaganda as a child, etc.

The books had their sad moments, their heartwarming moments, and excellent plotting and drama (the whole Lara Notsil/Gara Petothel thing,) and still managed to be genuinely funny at times.



Yub Yub, Commander

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I, for one, have no problem with the so-called "grimdark" (a term I've come to despise). I enjoy the darker themes and atmosphere. I'm not even sure exactly what people are referring to in nBSG's case, because Havok makes an excellent point: the whole fucking premise is inherently both rather dark and pretty grim, which is half the point of the damn story.

[Thanas]

I am with Havok and Brother-Captain Gaius here. As I said in another thread, if you get too light-hearted, you turn this into oBSG or Star Trek.

[Cecelia5578]

Ok, I agree, but what about the rather large detour into mysticism? I suppose that can be portrayed as neutral, not really grim or light hearted, but I think the series did take a detour from around New Caprica towards dealing heavily with the more mystical aspects of their universe.
Exceptions like the last tube of toothpaste in the galaxy included.

[General Zod]

Ok, I agree, but what about the rather large detour into mysticism? I suppose that can be portrayed as neutral, not really grim or light hearted, but I think the series did take a detour from around New Caprica towards dealing heavily with the more mystical aspects of their universe.
Exceptions like the last tube of toothpaste in the galaxy included.

What detour? Anyone who thought religion wouldn't be a central aspect since Season 1 wasn't paying attention.

[Cecelia5578]

Ok, I agree, but what about the rather large detour into mysticism? I suppose that can be portrayed as neutral, not really grim or light hearted, but I think the series did take a detour from around New Caprica towards dealing heavily with the more mystical aspects of their universe.
Exceptions like the last tube of toothpaste in the galaxy included.

What detour? Anyone who thought religion wouldn't be a central aspect since Season 1 wasn't paying attention.

It was hardly the issue in the first two seasons that it was after New Caprica. Plus, there was some genuine uncertainty over who/what was behind the nBSG "religion." To be fair, Razor was really the last grasp of gritty, humanistic nBSG, silly hybrid nonsensespeak to the contrary.

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, just wow. I could make some snide comment but that's too easy and pointless.

Instead I will point out as I asked in the Series finale, demonstrate why the other person is either off his or her rocker in some fashion beyond your personal preference. You like these shows or whatnot? Good. If you're just going to lash out at other people, then really we can just slot this into trolling, because it is getting there in the sheer rabid nature of it all.

If the other person is reasonable and logical in their dislike, don't retort "You're a fucktard ninny.". Demonstrate why it's illogical or unreasonable.

[Cecelia5578]

Wow, just wow. I could make some snide comment but that's too easy and pointless.

Instead I will point out as I asked in the Series finale, demonstrate why the other person is either off his or her rocker in some fashion beyond your personal preference. You like these shows or whatnot? Good. If you're just going to lash out at other people, then really we can just slot this into trolling, because it is getting there in the sheer rabid nature of it all.

If the other person is reasonable and logical in their dislike, don't retort "You're a fucktard ninny.". Demonstrate why it's illogical or unreasonable.

Because I disgree with the notion that GRIMDARK has always been such a defining characteristic of nBSG? Or that later in the series it became seriously overshadowed, to a degree not present earlier in the series, by convoluted mysticism?

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, just wow. I could make some snide comment but that's too easy and pointless.

Instead I will point out as I asked in the Series finale, demonstrate why the other person is either off his or her rocker in some fashion beyond your personal preference. You like these shows or whatnot? Good. If you're just going to lash out at other people, then really we can just slot this into trolling, because it is getting there in the sheer rabid nature of it all.

If the other person is reasonable and logical in their dislike, don't retort "You're a fucktard ninny.". Demonstrate why it's illogical or unreasonable.

Because I disgree with the notion that GRIMDARK has always been such a defining characteristic of nBSG? Or that later in the series it became seriously overshadowed, to a degree not present earlier in the series, by convoluted mysticism?

I love people who have enough ego to think I am talking specifically to them when I make a broad statement. But maybe using various general phrases was too vague.

[Genii Lodus]

It's a false dilemma to suggest that nBSG has to be oBSG to be less dark. One easy thing the series could have done would be having a few less character relationships fucked up by writer's fiat. One that particularly annoyed me was Adama and Lee not talking during Balthar's trial - they had been through so much together that it was a major back step in their relationship - it felt to me tacked on just for the sake of adding more character conflict and the only justification seemed to be that Adama was particularly cranky that day.

Regarding the mysticism angle I do remember that there was a 9 episode run from the end of season 1 about finding the Arrow of Apollo, Temple of Athena and the path to Earth. That was as 'magical' as anything later on so if you could rationalise that to yourself as sufficiently advanced technology so can you the rest of 'God's' miracles.

I liked nBSG as a whole, it's probably my favourite TV SF show. That doesn't mean I can't accept or find valid criticism of it. Sure some people have probably overreacted at the finale and the way things turned out but that doesn't mean you have to make a strawman out of their criticisms to defend the honour of the series.

[Covenant]

When I hear grimdark referred to I think of the theme and setting of 40k and similar sorts of conventions, not relationships. I haven't read the novels, but didn't some of the Cain books have lighthearted moments, and endings other than "everyone dies" in them?

I wouldn't consider the collapse of interpersonal relationships a form of grimdark, since that seems to be a common feature of a daytime drama TV that don't include bolters or robot death legions. I'd consider that a failing of the Battlesoap Opratica symptom that plagued a good deal of the series.

nBSG's grimdark is appropriate for the setting. However, there could have been more people who turned out like the Agathons, who got shot up, beat up, blown up occasionally, had their child stolen, hidden, prodded and so forth, and ended up laughing and joking and relatively happy none-the-less. Grimdark is fine, but people can't stay depressed forever without snapping--which is what most people did. However, a few more optimists and a few less snapped souls would have been fine by me and probably would have alleviated some of the claims of excessive grimdark. Not all of BSG's issues stem from the same source though, nor is it appropriate it call the grimdarkness of the year 150,000bc the sole reason for people to be unable to form stable family units.

[NecronLord]

How exactly would you portray a show where the premise is that 60,000 survivors of a human holocaust are being ruthlessly hunted down to be exterminated and are blindly chasing false hopes and mythical planets as their only chance of survival and are fighting for their lives at every turn, in a manner that doesn't qualify it as "GRIMDARK"?

In four words: Spirit of the Blitz.


In all honesty, it's quite difficult to do, but people getting over their problems, and pulling together would change the feel of it. I've been re-watching Season 1, just as an example of needless grim-darkness: Starbuck's Negligence led to the death of Adama's son. While that's good drama, it is an example of the kind of grim-darkness that is not necessitated by the setting's genocidal premise.

Of course, this isn't to say I don't like the grim-darkness of the setting, but examples like that, or Helo getting manipulated back on Caprica by faux-Boomer, and real-Boomer's angst about herself being a cylon... These are all examples of grim-darkness that aren't necessitated by the refugee premise.

And that's just from the episode I watched today.

[Thanas]

But would nBSG the same without those storylines? The Boomer/Athena angle is probably the second-most important storyline of S1.

Of those examples, the only thing that could be dropped IMO is Starbuck being negligient.

EDIT:

The triangle soap opera was not only bad storytelling, it was bad drama as well. That was unnecessary, so that would be my prime example of unnecessary grimdark.

[Genii Lodus]

I wouldn't consider the collapse of interpersonal relationships a form of grimdark, since that seems to be a common feature of a daytime drama TV that don't include bolters or robot death legions. I'd consider that a failing of the Battlesoap Opratica symptom that plagued a good deal of the series.

I meant it more as since you can't make the series' premise less grim given its about the last few thousand people left alive being hunted by killer toasters then all you've got to play with are the characters and giving more of them a little bit of happiness would have made season 3 in particular more bearable. There's moments like the dance after Baltar's inauguration as VP in season 1 where the characters seem happy and it would have been nice to have more of that kind of thing. Even a card game that doesn't end in plotting, a fight or some other gratuitous drama just friendly banter would have been welcome towards the end of season 3.

I actually liked the dire situation of 'Earth' being nuked, the coup and the degenerating condition of Galactica towards the end of season 4 (even if the latter was somewhat overplayed). There seemed to be more humour in those episodes, even if some was black, things like Starbuck in the toilet talking to Baltar. However most of season 3 and the early half of season 4 was a remorseless grind and its during that period that people seem to have problems with the way the series was going.

[Havok]

So the consensus I am gathering is that it isn't so much the setting that people have a problem with or the humanity on the brink of extinction angle, but the way the individual characters just have ultra dark lives and make even darker decisions on a consistent basis.

[Ghost Rider]

So the consensus I am gathering is that it isn't so much the setting that people have a problem with or the humanity on the brink of extinction angle, but the way the individual characters just have ultra dark lives and make even darker decisions on a consistent basis.

That's likely one of the more popular dislikes since the show is character focused. It likely runs a gamut of options to initial bits of the mini series to what happened.

[Mayabird]

So the consensus I am gathering is that it isn't so much the setting that people have a problem with or the humanity on the brink of extinction angle, but the way the individual characters just have ultra dark lives and make even darker decisions on a consistent basis.

Basically, yes. Kat didn't need a past as some illegal smuggler and Adama didn't need that thing with Valkyrie and Rosalyn didn't need that affair with Adar and Lee very much didn't need the entire episode of "Black Market." Yeah, some of the folks are frakups. Most people aren't saints. We get that. We knew from the get-go that Tigh was a drunk and Starbuck had issues. But by the end, who didn't have some ridiculously dark background story? I'm thinking Helo and that's about it.

[Skylon]

Basically, yes. Kat didn't need a past as some illegal smuggler and Adama didn't need that thing with Valkyrie and Rosalyn didn't need that affair with Adar and Lee very much didn't need the entire episode of "Black Market." Yeah, some of the folks are frakups. Most people aren't saints. We get that. We knew from the get-go that Tigh was a drunk and Starbuck had issues. But by the end, who didn't have some ridiculously dark background story? I'm thinking Helo and that's about it.

Adama's background with the Valkyrie I think sorta paid off with the flashbacks in "Daybreak". They show him at rock-bottom, assigned to command a "broken-down old ship" due to what happened with the Valkyrie and contemplating leaving the service. In the end he decides "screw any other life" and elects to be a Battlestar Commander as long as he can.

The Roslin affair with Adar struck me as dumb from day one. "Oh look! We've thrown in Lewinsky too!"

Kat's whole death episode always bugged me. Why did she need to fly a suicide mission? By going out there, in a state where she would get a fatal dose of radiation, she actually put people at risk. She could have croaked mid-flight. Oh wait, she needs to atone for these random-ass sins invented for the episode.

Lee's backstory in "Black Market" I'm indifferent to.

Starbuck's bugged me from a standpoint of military protocol. She pretty much pissed me off from that point on, with some breaks. The best part of that whole sub-plot was EJO flexing some acting skills and telling her (with a mix of hurt and rage) "Walk out of this cabin while you still can" after she confesses.

Billy didn't seem to have that dark a background. Nor Sam (Cylon revelation aside). I daresay Billy and Sam Anders are the only two people whose every decision I agreed with during the course of the series (Helo too, if not for the bioweapon episode).

[Stark]

Would it count as 'less grimdark' if they learned how to point a fucking camera at a stationary object without shaking like a three-legged washing machine? I have no problem with the 'gritty' themes of nBSG; the ham-fisted way we're informed THIS IS EXCITING or OMG DID YOU SEE THAT is just tiresome.

[Sarevok]

Galactica grimdark ? Come on ! It's just a silly way to stage a proxy argument about something irrelevant to hide the real problems with the show. I could write an essay on them but let's not get there because it is more important to discuss how edgy and dark Galactica was in depicting humanity. Because realistic writing is all about maladjusted walking plot devices being shoved from scene to scene by supernatural magic.

[NecronLord]

But would nBSG the same without those storylines? The Boomer/Athena angle is probably the second-most important storyline of S1.

Who gives a flying monkey's toss? The question was: can you do the show with less grimdark while sticking with the premise? The answer is yes.

The question wasn't 'can you cut the grimdark and have it be the same show' - obviously the answer isn't the same.

So the consensus I am gathering is that it isn't so much the setting that people have a problem with or the humanity on the brink of extinction angle, but the way the individual characters just have ultra dark lives and make even darker decisions on a consistent basis.

You got it. Let's take a look at one of the the latest ones I watched, Flesh and Bone - that's pretty much an excersise in unnecessary grimdark. As Starbuck actually points out in the show, there is no logical reason why a cylon shouldn't be able to just 'turn off the pain software' - rendering the whole torture and waterboarding thing a waste of time.

And for good measure, it's revealed that Starbuck's mother was an abusive bitch who liked to torture her.

That's forty minutes of unnecessary grimdark, right there.

[Skylon]

Would it count as 'less grimdark' if they learned how to point a fucking camera at a stationary object without shaking like a three-legged washing machine? I have no problem with the 'gritty' themes of nBSG; the ham-fisted way we're informed THIS IS EXCITING or OMG DID YOU SEE THAT is just tiresome.

That was a directorial decision from day one, that I think gave the show its own feel. So long as it stays unique to BSG, and is not copied to death by subsequent sci-fi shows and movies, I have no problem with it.

Some of the biggest effects scenes actually stopped the camera shaking...maybe to serve as a cue that it was important. The image was pretty steady during Pegasus' suicide run and the destruction of the Resurrection Ship.

[Erik von Nein]

Wait, wait, shakey cam was invented for nBSG? Even the Bourne movies started using it before nBSG, and that's what I can remember off the top of my head. I don't think this makes it unique to the series. Pan-and-scan, like what's been used for some of the battles, was used even in the show Skylon's avatar is from. Several space battles or faux news reports in series used it. It's nothing unique to nBSG.

[General Zod]

Wait, wait, shakey cam was invented for nBSG? Even the Bourne movies started using it before nBSG, and that's what I can remember off the top of my head.

I'm pretty sure Blaire Witch is responsible for popularizing the whole shakey-cam fad.