Examples of Vulcans lying

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-06 05:32pm

ENT's "The Andorian Incident" comes to mind. The Vulcan's must have repeatedly lied to the Andorian's about the non-existence of their listening post.

It seems to me that Vorik was rather dishonest in VOY's "Blood Fever", but specific example of a lie would help me in an argument I'm having.

I assume that Tuvok must have lied while infiltrating the Maquis, prior to events in VOY.

I suspect that Tallera must have lied at some point in "Gambit". I believe that she failed to deliver a promised reward to the mercenaries, at the very least.

Can anyone help me nail these down?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-06 05:55pm

Not exactly a lie, but rather a big mistake: in "Amok Time" Spock said that they would only lose so many light days by diverting to Vulcan. When you go off course you gain distance and lose time. IOW, Spock made the same kind of mistake that Trekkies are so critical of Han Solo making with Parsecs.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-06 07:09pm

Any particular reason?

I thought the "Vulcans don't lie" thing was just a myth propogated by the Vulcans.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-06 07:23pm

Actually, Solo was RIGHT about 'parsecs' because it was the shortest distance anyone had ever traveled from Point A to Point B, because Line AB was right along the Maw.

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-02-06 08:12pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Actually, Solo was RIGHT about 'parsecs' because it was the shortest distance anyone had ever traveled from Point A to Point B, because Line AB was right along the Maw.

This was invented after the fact as way to explain it without making Han look dumb though.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-06 08:23pm

This was invented after the fact as way to explain it without making Han look dumb though.

Not it was explained in EU by KJA of all people, Fast ships can skim closer to the Maw in Hyperspace than others, You have to take the nice big wide route if your not that fast

Thusly it has a direct relation

Faster in Hyperspace-Less Distance nessary to go
The diffrence between the two, is that "Vulcans don't lie" is pure bullshit on many levels while "12 Parsecs" can be explained

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-02-06 08:31pm

Mr Bean wrote:
This was invented after the fact as way to explain it without making Han look dumb though.
Not it was explained in EU by KJA of all people, Fast ships can skim closer to the Maw in Hyperspace than others, You have to take the nice big wide route if your not that fast

Thusly it has a direct relation

With disbelief suspended, yes. I was simply pointing out both actors (or writers, rather, I suppose) simply made a blooper, and SW has jumped through hoops to explain it away so that Han doesn't look like an idiot like Spock does now.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-06 09:14pm

WILL YOU GUYS SHUT UP ABOUT THE PARSECS BIT!!!!!

The point was, even without the explanation from the EU, Trekkies have no business criticising Han since their beloved Mr Spock did the same stupid thing

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-06 10:18pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Any particular reason?

A solid refute of the apparently widespread notion that anything said "in canon" must be true. In "Data's Day", Data recorded in his log that "Vulcans don't lie", yet we have multiple examples of Vulcans lying.

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2003-02-06 10:31pm

Didn't Spock lie extensively in Wrath of Khan ?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-06 10:34pm

He "exaggerated." Sounds like he's becomming a politician.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-06 11:46pm

Damn, I could swear I heard somewhere that the whole "Vulcans cannot lie" thing was canonically stated to be untrue... by a Vulcan, no less. (well, spoken in inner monologue, but still) Maybe it was just a book.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-07 02:22am

Uraniun235 wrote:Damn, I could swear I heard somewhere that the whole "Vulcans cannot lie" thing was canonically stated to be untrue... by a Vulcan, no less. (well, spoken in inner monologue, but still) Maybe it was just a book.

I believe it was in WoK. Didn't someone ask Spock about Vulcans not lying. And he said something like they can, but only for specific purposes or something. Somebody will have to verify that, but I think that was it.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-07 07:53am

The Dude wrote:Didn't Spock lie extensively in Wrath of Khan ?

Not really. Kirk understood him perfectly.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-07 11:51am

Back in TOS, check out the infamous incident in which Kirk steals a Romulan cloaking device(The Enterprise Incident):

Spock engages in extensive subterfuge, poses as acting captain even though he knows his captain is still alive and kicking, applies a fake Vulcan death grip, lies about the existence of that Vulcan death grip and his having used it instinctively in self defense, romances a comely Romulan Commander, and at one point (unless my memory is going entirely) even tells her flat out that the Vulcan inability to lie is a myth and that all intelligent beings must be able to die.

Similarly, in TNG (Sarek): Sarek's losing his mind, and thus his emotional control, and his aides are covering for it. Both aides and the admittedly unbalanced Sarek all lie their Vulcan posteriors off, strenuously denying that Sarek is not in fact going nuts, that Sarek did not cry at the concert, and so on. Sarek was obviously just in denial, but the aides deliberately lied to cover for their boss, trying to save face even at the risk of causing potentially catastrophic interstellar political screw-ups.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-07 11:53am

Ted C wrote:
The Dude wrote:Didn't Spock lie extensively in Wrath of Khan ?
Not really. Kirk understood him perfectly.

Technically it was lying. However the way it was done, one can say it was just analogy.

It was along the lines of: Hours become days. So it will take 3 DAYS to fix the ship. ...

Kind of lying, though the argument can be made that he just made an analogy or something.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-07 12:47pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:Back in TOS, check out the infamous incident in which Kirk steals a Romulan cloaking device(The Enterprise Incident):

Spock engages in extensive subterfuge, poses as acting captain even though he knows his captain is still alive and kicking, applies a fake Vulcan death grip, lies about the existence of that Vulcan death grip and his having used it instinctively in self defense, romances a comely Romulan Commander, and at one point (unless my memory is going entirely) even tells her flat out that the Vulcan inability to lie is a myth and that all intelligent beings must be able to lie.

That's a good one.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-07 12:49pm

neoolong wrote:
Ted C wrote:
The Dude wrote:Didn't Spock lie extensively in Wrath of Khan ?
Not really. Kirk understood him perfectly.
Technically it was lying. However the way it was done, one can say it was just analogy.

IMO, for it to qualify as a lie, the speaker has to be deliberately deceiving the person to whom s/he is speaking. Spock was speaking to Kirk, and he didn't deceive Kirk. Whether any other listeners misunderstood is irrelevant.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-07 01:50pm

Ted C wrote:
neoolong wrote:
Ted C wrote: Not really. Kirk understood him perfectly.
Technically it was lying. However the way it was done, one can say it was just analogy.
IMO, for it to qualify as a lie, the speaker has to be deliberately deceiving the person to whom s/he is speaking. Spock was speaking to Kirk, and he didn't deceive Kirk. Whether any other listeners misunderstood is irrelevant.

But the point was to inform Kirk, but he also knew that Khan was listening, and the objective was to decieve Khan. It was for both of them, IMO.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-07 04:02pm

neoolong wrote:But the point was to inform Kirk, but he also knew that Khan was listening, and the objective was to decieve Khan. It was for both of them, IMO.

Not really. Spock probably suspected the possibility that Kahn might be listening in, but couldn't be certain. Kirk noted to Savik that it was a Fed regulation to code messages during battle. So all this particular incident proves is that Spock follows regulations.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-07 04:06pm

Darth Servo wrote:
neoolong wrote:But the point was to inform Kirk, but he also knew that Khan was listening, and the objective was to decieve Khan. It was for both of them, IMO.
Not really. Spock probably suspected the possibility that Kahn might be listening in, but couldn't be certain. Kirk noted to Savik that it was a Fed regulation to code messages during battle. So all this particular incident proves is that Spock follows regulations.

Ok. Whatever. It's been awhile since I've seen it.