Dawn of War 2 novel

[Ford Prefect]

Tenths of a second seems kind of slow. I actuallly did an experiment in a psychology prac on Tuesday where we were measuring how long it would take you to react to a stimulus (in this case getting your shoulder or ankle squeezed) and the average time was about .3 seconds.

EDIT: It's not much of a test, but it should be broadly accurate.

[NecronLord]

The differences appear to be cosmetic. It's not like I've never seen a fucking Terminator before.

And the same criticism still applies.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, I realize they're Custodes, but if anything those would be more maneuverable, right?

No. The custodians are a static, defensive force, whose job is to sit around and stand watch, often as individuals. The Astartes are a simplified version whose job is to go out and attack.

What's more, that's ten thousand years of full on progress behind the modern terminator armour design which I linked you to. Modern mark eight astartes armour kicks shit out of the stuff they were using in the Heresy, and terminators have likewise advanced.

[Shroom Man 777]

Seriously, seeing Space Marines and Terminators (and Custodes) in armor that big and moving so fricking fast and coming at you, that would be one scary sight. Like being charged at by an elephant or a rhino, or being attacked by a hippo or a crocodile. Very large things that you'd expect to be slow and ponderous, bursting in speed to murder the fuck out of you.

In a setting as obscene as 40k, I'd expect that kind of stuff to be pretty normal.

And what's worse is that Orks are just as big as Marines and come at you that fast with butchers knives.

[Connor MacLeod]

No, I dislike Goto for outright making up a C'tan, that's supposedly killed at the end of the book... (Much like Last Stand of the Firebrands, but that at least did it with some style)

Had a peek at Hellforged yet? Ben Counter brought he Soul Drinkers up against the Necrons too. Some bits I think you'd like, but others might make you scream lol.

Seriously, seeing Space Marines and Terminators (and Custodes) in armor that big and moving so fricking fast and coming at you, that would be one scary sight.

I actually suspect the armour's bulk may be exaggerated a bit by the artwork, the way they exaggerate teh size of the weapons too. Otherwise you get some pretty deformed people in some cases (I think lol)

[NecronLord]

To elaborate, that crummy armour design is also used by the Astartes of the time, with the exception of Ferrus Manus' personal retinue, who're in something much more modern. However, theirs is considerably less elaborate, and better proportioned for moving in.

What's more, there's a few pictures ("Saevin Terminator Squad," "Invictus Terminator Squad") Where you can see that armour side on; the pauldrons are not actually linked directly to the arms, which can traverse quite freely underneath.

Had a peek at Hellforged yet? Ben Counter brought he Soul Drinkers up against the Necrons too. Some bits I think you'd like, but others might make you scream lol.

I've read it, yes. It's like he turned necron infantry firepower down, and correspondingly turned their starship firepower up. The necron cruiser being able to core an Imperial cruiser end to end front-to-back and then vapourise it completely was particularly egregious.

[Connor MacLeod]

What's more, there's a few pictures ("Saevin Terminator Squad," "Invictus Terminator Squad") Where you can see that armour side on; the pauldrons are not actually linked directly to the arms, which can traverse quite freely underneath.

More than a few sources describe "auto reactive" pauldrons that can move (to guard the head or some nonsense like that, but oh well.) I also vaguely remember some depictions mentioning that the Paudlrons also carry things like ammo or some such. I guess it depends on the suit design or possibly just personal modifications.

I've read it, yes. It's like he turned necron infantry firepower down, and correspondingly turned their starship firepower up. The necron cruiser being able to core an Imperial cruiser end to end front-to-back and then vapourise it completely was particularly egregious.

Depends. We've discussed flayer firepower before and there has been plenty of inconsistency in its "damage" and how it does it. I'm guessing its all in the settings and whatnot. Durability seemed to be quite a bit trrimmed down though (not that its a first time for that either tho)

The industrial potential depicted on the tomb world they invaded was insane though. IT had at LEAST stellar scale power output described in the planet, and that wasn't neccesariyl for defensive purposes.

I haven't given much thought (yet) to the starship scale stuff though.

[Ford Prefect]

I don't think any artwork can be said to properly represent what Power Armour actually looks like. We've known for years that Power Armour is 'auto-reactive' and that it can change geometry to best fit a particular movement. For example the shoulder plates dropping further when the Astartes looks to the side, or shifting to better facilitate knocking someone's head off. It seems likely that the suits are actually much more 'complex' than the art would suggest - to give a visual analogy, somewhat like how the Mk.II/Mk.III suits in Iron Man were more than just slabs of armour. Thematically Space Marines are supposed to be somewhat like monastic orders of space knights, so visually their art reflects this, to degrees depending on the Chapter in question.

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't think any artwork can be said to properly represent what Power Armour actually looks like. We've known for years that Power Armour is 'auto-reactive' and that it can change geometry to best fit a particular movement.

Seriously?! I never really saw anything like that in the Brothers of the Snake book I read. How often is that fact mentioned?

Still, Brothers of the Snake has "bulky" and "clunky" Space Marines going all 300 and Spartan on Orky asses, and we get a Marine Captain effectively having a swordfight with Eldar, and said Marine when he was a n00b totally murdering the FUCK out of multiple Dark Eldars, moving so fucking fast that they're all dead and he's not scratched an inch, so yeah.

And Land Speeders being totally badass. I'd like to imagine they're like miniature A-10s now.

Seriously, seeing Space Marines and Terminators (and Custodes) in armor that big and moving so fricking fast and coming at you, that would be one scary sight.

I actually suspect the armour's bulk may be exaggerated a bit by the artwork, the way they exaggerate teh size of the weapons too. Otherwise you get some pretty deformed people in some cases (I think lol)

Aren't there (fan) art depicting unarmored Marines as having really... odd body proportions? Plus the black carapace and various plug holes.

But I guess the artwork can be exaggerating too, since 40k is an idiotic awesome setting. Like how the Cain covers have him double-wield boltpistols when, in fact, he's never touched a boltgun ever!


(BTW, I totally dig your analysis thread. Ogryns hauling tanks! ORKS ON MOTORBIKES MAKING TITANS EXPLODE HOLY SHIT!)

[Ford Prefect]

Seriously?! I never really saw anything like that in the Brothers of the Snake book I read. How often is that fact mentioned?

Looking at Connor's post it might actually only be auto-reactive shoulder plates (to counteract their sheer hugeness).

Still, Brothers of the Snake has "bulky" and "clunky" Space Marines going all 300 and Spartan on Orky asses, and we get a Marine Captain effectively having a swordfight with Eldar, and said Marine when he was a n00b totally murdering the FUCK out of multiple Dark Eldars, moving so fucking fast that they're all dead and he's not scratched an inch, so yeah.

I have my own particular picture of Space Marine combat which is honestly very silly, but I often forget that actual 40k authors can get pretty silly themselves.

Aren't there (fan) art depicting unarmored Marines as having really... odd body proportions? Plus the black carapace and various plug holes.

They have weird proportions in universe too; a woman visited a Space Marine when he was just in his underwear and she found him both attractive and unusual looking.

[Shroom Man 777]

I have my own particular picture of Space Marine combat which is honestly very silly, but I often forget that actual 40k authors can get pretty silly themselves.

Well, he did get hit by a few glancing shots, but the point is that he was both faster AND stealthier than the Dark Eldar he was engaging! Quite a feat for a mega-armored mofo!

Admittedly, that part of the story was written in the POV of a woman accompanying the Marine, to make him look better, but still.

[NecronLord]

Also, Ryan, you glossed over the fact that I managed to find, within about a minute, a picture of a terminator-marine hefting his hand high above his head. Yeah; the modern model is flexible.

Depends. We've discussed flayer firepower before and there has been plenty of inconsistency in its "damage" and how it does it. I'm guessing its all in the settings and whatnot. Durability seemed to be quite a bit trrimmed down though (not that its a first time for that either tho)

Spoiler

Given the unusual sadism of the necron lord in that book (incidentally, read the nightbringer's TT rules and then that final confrontation - I think it might have been made with them in mind) it might be that the weapons were set to a lower power because he wanted the humans to die more slowly - after all, if there's one thing to be said for gauss flayers, it's that they're at least quick.

Yeah, their durability didn't seem terribly good. Of course, these guys used some variant designs (their battleship was described a lot more like a normal cruiser, and vice-versa) which can also be used to explain away their... unusal... flayed ones.

The industrial potential depicted on the tomb world they invaded was insane though. IT had at LEAST stellar scale power output described in the planet, and that wasn't neccesariyl for defensive purposes.

I haven't given much thought (yet) to the starship scale stuff though.

Spoiler

It was interesting. It also had mining operations mentioned, as well as transports (and troop-transports, strangely; I did like the boarding torpedo though) and another mention of new-necron production to tick off those who claim that they can't increase their numbers. Also, the hollow-world thing is a nice explanation for how that tombworld in the Goto abortion could be destroyed by cyclonics - though that begs the question of why they bother, if it renders them more vulnerable.

I'm honestly not sure what to think of this book yet.

[NecronLord]

Well, he did get hit by a few glancing shots, but the point is that he was both faster AND stealthier than the Dark Eldar he was engaging! Quite a feat for a mega-armored mofo!

Admittedly, that part of the story was written in the POV of a woman accompanying the Marine, to make him look better, but still.

I'm reliably informed that Brothers of the Snake gimps the Dark Eldar something fierce. Supposedly it has a few thousand running away from one space marine squad or something laughable like that.

[Ford Prefect]

The Iron Snakes are apparently Dark Eldar Kryptonite - so many get killed at one point that when a Marine drops his helmet, it floats away. I remember a page from one of the comics where two Space Marines are int he middle of a veritable swarm of Dark Eldar. In two panels it's just two Marines standing on a pile of Eldar corpses. The Dark Eldar are no threat to the Imperium, but the Index Xenos article on them does try to make it clear that on a personal level that they're not exactly slouches. Examples of their speed range from 'kicking grenades back to their owners', 'dodging through las gun fire' and 'running through a crowd and dismembering people so fast that you actually have to put it into slow motion to see pick out individual movements'. Seriously, some of their saves represent their skill at bullet dodging (or they used to, at any rate).

[Ryan Thunder]

Also, Ryan, you glossed over the fact that I managed to find, within about a minute, a picture of a terminator-marine hefting his hand high above his head. Yeah; the modern model is flexible.

Erm... no? Look at his shoulder again; the only thing letting him put that hand over his head is the fact that he's wearing a huge glove over it! The only real flexibility demonstrated in that image is at his elbow. But then again, that's to be expected.

@Ford: My head just exploded. 250cm tall giants in massively bulky power armour dodging lasblasts... -_-;

[NecronLord]

Irrelevant. His hand's up there. He could stand on it. With sufficient momentum, he could backflip off it. The fact that it's a large power armoured hand doesn't matter; given that every basic terminator suit has one of those.

[Shadowtraveler]

You know, if those pauldrons on the custodes are auto-reactive, couldn't they just slide down if he wanted to raise his hands over his head?

In fact, the way the Terminator in the second picture is raising his arm suggest the pauldron has been raised higher than the one on the other arm.

A backflip should be possible, though with the suit's large squarish top it might look a bit weird.

[Ford Prefect]

@Ford: My head just exploded. 250cm tall giants in massively bulky power armour dodging lasblasts... -_-;

I was actually talking about Dark Eldar, but we do have an example of a Space Marine leaping across a largish room in space between the trigger-pulls. Poor guy pulls the trigger once, and before he can pull it again there's a Space Marine right on top of him. They've never been slow, of course, and their armour is an extension of their own body, and it already augments their considerable strength - it's a lot of explosive power for leaping.

[Elheru Aran]

You know, if those pauldrons on the custodes are auto-reactive, couldn't they just slide down if he wanted to raise his hands over his head?

In fact, the way the Terminator in the second picture is raising his arm suggest the pauldron has been raised higher than the one on the other arm.

A backflip should be possible, though with the suit's large squarish top it might look a bit weird.

I've been slowly working on a costume Space Marine suit of armour, from cardboard, and the pauldrons have actually been one of the most frickin' hard parts to work with, because of their size and weight-- I have to figure out some way to hang them onto my shoulders. Hanging them from the shoulders of the body section won't work because then they'll be flapping all over the place (I think) plus I can't figure out how to make it so it'll rotate properly. One presumes that they wouldn't put such huge-assed pauldrons on the armour unless they could figure out how to make them as mobile as possible! It simply stands to logic.

In NL's picture of the Terminator, for example, not only is the Termie obviously able to rotate his arm almost straight upwards, it seems that the pauldron has actually slid upward (backwards) over the shoulder joint as it rotated. I would presume, then, that the pauldrons are attached with some sort of means to automatically manipulate it upward or downwards to the deltoid area of the shoulder.

[Ryan Thunder]

In NL's picture of the Terminator, for example, not only is the Termie obviously able to rotate his arm almost straight upwards, it seems that the pauldron has actually slid upward (backwards) over the shoulder joint as it rotated. I would presume, then, that the pauldrons are attached with some sort of means to automatically manipulate it upward or downwards to the deltoid area of the shoulder.

He's leaning back and his arm is held out straight, and then bent up at the elbow.

It does look a tad higher than on the other side, however.

[NecronLord]

He's leaning back and his arm is held out straight, and then bent up at the elbow.

Which of course, limits his ability to do this:



Somehow. NB: This is a proper backflip. Note that at no point do her arms need to elevate higher than his in that picture. Note also her considerable clearance of the ground throughout - were she in terminator armour (scaled for her body) the bulky back section would not hit the floor.

What you're obviously imagining is a hand stand.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well there's the bit where she curls up into a ball that would pose a problem. With his chest sticking out as much as it is he wouldn't be able to swing his legs far enough up to get enough momentum, unless the suit is ridiculously light. And she clearly raises her arms higher than he did in the third frame there. :3

[Connor MacLeod]

Astartes despite being taller and bulkier, can run MUCH faster in power armor and cover much greater lengths in stride (multi-meter, which is pretty much mean making small leaps with each step) and that likely means increased jumping/leaping ability as well (I can vaguely recall incidents of astartes jumping but the exact instances elude me)

In any case, we know Terminator armour can and usually does (did?) have suspensors equipped (along with targeters and other neat gear), and suspensors will help a ton with leaping.

[Ryan Thunder]

Astartes despite being taller and bulkier, can run MUCH faster in power armor and cover much greater lengths in stride (multi-meter, which is pretty much mean making small leaps with each step) and that likely means increased jumping/leaping ability as well (I can vaguely recall incidents of astartes jumping but the exact instances elude me)

You'd think they'd pretty much have to be leaping to do some of that. Maybe not jumping outright, but certainly not touching the ground...

In any case, we know Terminator armour can and usually does (did?) have suspensors equipped (along with targeters and other neat gear), and suspensors will help a ton with leaping.

There's something that just strikes me wrong about that whole notion, but whatever, I'll conceed the point.

[Kuja]

I'm reliably informed that Brothers of the Snake gimps the Dark Eldar something fierce. Supposedly it has a few thousand running away from one space marine squad or something laughable like that.

It's actually the exact opposite. The Dark Eldar get stomped by a major Iron Snakes force, rig their fort to blow and then flee out the back entrance, which happens to be covered by Priad and his squad. At that point the ludicrous number of kills they rack up can be largely attributed to the fact that the elder were more concerned about Getting the Fuck Out than about covering each other from enemy fire. (IE, sacrifice the poor slobs who have to pass right by the space marines and save your own bacon.)

[andrewgpaul]

Astartes despite being taller and bulkier, can run MUCH faster in power armor and cover much greater lengths in stride (multi-meter, which is pretty much mean making small leaps with each step) and that likely means increased jumping/leaping ability as well (I can vaguely recall incidents of astartes jumping but the exact instances elude me)

In any case, we know Terminator armour can and usually does (did?) have suspensors equipped (along with targeters and other neat gear), and suspensors will help a ton with leaping.

I'm not sure if it's still mentioned, but the Space Marine 1st edition rulebook mentions that "Neuroplastic fiber-bundles replicate and amplify the wearer's movements, so that powered armor is no more cumbersome to wear then a normal suit of clothes."

As for Terminator Armour's mobility, how about these: