Could a society with an Adeptus Mechanicus evolve?

[Zor]

A sociological question, but one that is really a science fiction related.

As a basic rundown of backround material that is important here in regards to the Adeptus Mechanicus are as such. The Adeptus Mechanicus is the part of the Imperium of Man that is responsible for most industrial production, science and technology. However it has several major diferences than how this is handled in modern civilization...

1-It is very religious in the way it does things, and has a whole lot of religious nonsense stapled onto science and technology, such as beleiving that machinery has a spirit of some sort that should be appeased to make it work properly and religious aspects to things such as scientific research and manufacturing
2-Is secretive, mantaining a monopoly on technology in no small part by virtue that everyone else is scientifically illiterate
3-(Related to two) Often has a poor understanding of the technology that it's are using, with the lower levels simply preforming standardized (and ritualized) matinence proceedures with a few things being very badly understood.
4-(Related to two and three) Alot of their technology was developed by a previous technologically advanced civilization. For example, they might know how to build an atomic bomb, but they have bugger all knowledge of the actual process of nuclear fission.

As such, i am wondering, is it possible for a civilization with an anolouge to the Adeptus Mechanicus to evolve? Logically such a society would emerge on some isolated offworld colony world that failed to properly develop or in a post Apocalyptic setting, but could one emerge?

Zor

[NecronLord]

Here's the rub. Since Mechanicum, we know that there actually is a machine god, and his influence kickstarted development of technology and science on Mars. While they're religious, there's actually an actual logical reason for this.

[Ford Prefect]

And frankly, the Mechanicus' religion is science, even if it is funny looking.

[Bedlam]

I'd say it would be possible in certain circumstances.

If you have all the knowledge and power held in the hands of a small group and they want to keep that power they might put together a mythology to explain by only they can use technology and that bad things would happen if other people tried. The problem would be stopping other people finding out the truth which would require a tight clamp down on independent Scientists / Engineers. Over time the people with the knowledge might start to believe their own propoganda (say some key people die unexpectedly leaving only the conditioned drones). I don't think it would last long as it would break down as knowledge is lost and indenpent groups learn how to work things themselves. I guess trade guilds in Renassance Europe were something similar trying to keep certain knowledge amonst themselves and keeping others out although without the religious aspect.

[Chris OFarrell]

Not all of the Mechanicus is created equal.

A lot of the higher up, senior people, especially those based on Mars, often appear to be much closer to the 'real' ideal of a scientist then one might think at first, often even doing proper experimentation and putting aside ritual for the sake of the scientific method.

On the other hand, a great deal of the lower and middle ranks as NOT scientists, they are just glorified technicians, nothing more or less. And the further away you get from higher ranked people on Mars, often the more dogmatic and stagnent people you can run into, even at more senior ranks.

And while a LOT of their work is swathed in ritual stupidity, especially at the lower levels, a lot of that is just foolproof ways of making damn sure the average Imperial citizen knows how to turn on a light switch, and a lot of it is the AM's way of very carefully protecting their power and position. It might be that chanting the litany of accuracy while reloading a Lasgun is utterly unnecessary, but as the lasgun DOES then reload and fire after, it becomes ingrained as 'this is why this works', and slowly that sort of thinking starts to take over your mindset.

[speaker-to-trolls]

I'd say this is more likely in an artificial habitat: Space station, underground city, giant spaceship, whatever, where resources become limited for some reason and contact with other areas becomes reduced. In that type of situation there would be very little room for experimentation since an experiment going wrong could result in very, VERY unpleasant consequences, what you'd want is people who knew how to keep the systems going well enough to keep everyone alive. In such a situation I could actually envisage an Adeptus Mechanicus analogue emerging out of the technicians and engineers, although they'd probably get less cloistered if the society ever began to seriously expand and more innovative ways of getting new resources/building more living space was required (and they now have colonies to do their dangerous experiments on).

[Juubi Karakuchi]

There are three particular issues that have to be considered in this context. The first shall be the advancement of knowledge, the second the issue of cybernetic enhancement, the third being the closed-off nature of the mechanicus.

For the first, we must consider simply how advanced 40k technology is. GW is putting forward the idea that some day technology may become so advanced and complex that it requires greater and greater degrees of specialization on the part of its practictioners. In this scenario, research and design teams will become larger and larger, requiring greater and greater numbers of specialists combining their knowledge. This is not proven, however, and even if it was it does not necessarily mean a Mechanicus outcome.

The second issue, that of cybernetic enhancement, ties into the previous issue. Scientists of the future may try to offset the need for greater specialisation through the development and use of cybernetics, improving their ability to acquire, store, and pass on information. We are arguably seeing the beginnings of this today. As with the previous point, however, this does not necessarily imply a Mechanicus outcome. The implication depends on the ability of cyborgs to interact with and function in human society, a matter not just of the cyborg's own perspective, but of the attitudes of society. If cyborgs are seen as normal, then there would be no real need for separation. If they are treated with suspicion or resentment, then a Mechanicus outcome becomes more likely.

Finally, the possible reasons for separation from wider society, the Mechanicus outcome. As has been shown, advancements in scientific knowledge and the development of cybernetics are not sufficient in themselves for this outcome, though they may contribute to it. I would argue that the creation of the Adeptus Mechanicus was not the cause of an ignorant and possibly obscurantist society, but is rather the result of such a development. When one considers the often religiously-motivated hostility directed at scientists and the learned in general, the idea that they might remove themselves from a society that scorns, fears, and even hates them does not seem entirely implausible.
Let us put this in perspective. Such a response would be ridiculously extreme in real life. In 40k however, we have the AI rebellion and a general collapse of law and order leading to the Age of Strife. Under such extreme circumstances, the idea of scientists removing themselves from a collapsing society in order to preserve knowledge and prevent another 'fall of Rome', becomes somewhat plausible.

As to whether such a society could evolve, we must consider what we mean by this word 'evolve?'. If we mean scientific development, then of course this will continue, for what other purpose does the Mechanicus serve? If we are thinking of the advancement of humanity into something better than itself (the Star Trek or Babylon 5 approach), then things get somewhat complicated. It is necessary to know whether the Mechanicus controls all science, or merely the development and provision of technology. If the former, and we consider that the advancement of humanity includes making science available to all, then let us hope that such an institution never comes into existence, or for that matter is never needed.

[NecronLord]

The mechanicus doesn't control all science. Sociology and things are types of science they'll have a crack at, but are also researched outside the Mechanicus. They seem to have a legal monopoly on scientific advancement in 'hard science' fields (and the likes of computing) but do not have a monopoly on its use or production - rather, they liscence a lot of manufacturing out to those who bid for it, in exchange for an unspecified remuneration of some sort. We see this in Dark Heresy, where the best weapons designs are liscenced out by the Mechanicus, and various companies and competitors are free to make their own inventions too, so long as they don't committ techno-heresy.

[Connor MacLeod]

The AdMech doesnt seem to give a flying fuck about alot of lesser technologies or the very basic stuff on alot of worlds. The Underhives of Necromunda are often quite devoid of the "machine spirit" for example and can go whole lives without seein ga Techpriest. Then there was fifteen hours where you had lazy techpriests telling the planet's inhabitants what they needed to do to fix a pump because they were too lazy to do it.

Some people in the AdMech seem to really buy into the bunk but then you always have others who seem to be more "casual" believers (kind of like the people who may believe but only go to church every week because its expected). And then there are the ones who probably feign belief or give it lip service but purely because its "expected" or its how "things work" and they really don't give a shit about it (or they just use the belief for their own ends.)

At its core though the AdMech is basically just like any monopoly, with or without the religious trappings, and except for its more extreme ends evolution could still go on in some form (although this doesn't mean the evolution goes around at all equally. Just as not everyone may go broke if the economy goes to shit, but that doesn't mean everyone will come out of it equally well or poorly.)

Edit: I should modify the monopoly analogy to allow that while there is only ONE AdMech, there are enough divisions and subdivisions and allied groups and such that they still come into conflict or bicker or disagree (like every other branch of the Imperium.) Manyy of the forge worlds, for example, will not share technology readily with other forge worlds (Mars in particular.) and that creates (I believe) a certain measure of competition that does allow some measure of development and research to occur (the Vanquishers and Baneblades are an example.)

[Shadowtraveler]

If anything, such a religious group would evolve more along the lines of Scientism from Asimov's Foundation than the Mechanicus. The AM restricts a lot of research simply because any number of cliche sci-fi disasters can and will happen. Mad science is a given in 40k.

For what it's worth, though, technological heresy is somewhat common throughout the Imperium, although many of these "heriteks" are just mechanics who don't care about the religious trappings of the AM.

[NecronLord]

If anything, such a religious group would evolve more along the lines of Scientism from Asimov's Foundation than the Mechanicus. The AM restricts a lot of research simply because any number of cliche sci-fi disasters can and will happen. Mad science is a given in 40k.

Correction. It restricts them, because the Emperor said 'no machine intelligence, unauthorised warp tech, and so on, or I WILL DESTROY YOU!' They didn't have those limitations before the Treaty of Mars.

[open_sketchbook]

Yet they still had restriction before the treaty. Machine intelligence has been out since the Dark Age of Technology at least, ever since the Iron Men.

[NecronLord]

Yet they still had restriction before the treaty. Machine intelligence has been out since the Dark Age of Technology at least, ever since the Iron Men.

Wrong. See the artbooks. The Magus who made the Kaban machine specifically says the treaty is what banned such research.

Of course, Tales of Heresy features Spoiler

a non-imperial world that has constructed fully-AI warriors that are seemingly loyal.

[Cykeisme]

I don't think it's the same ZOMG SKYNET EVERY SINGLE TIME sort of problem we see in other sci-fi.. the problem is that Chaos corrupts, and Abominable Intelligences are very vulnerable.

[NecronLord]

I don't think it's the same ZOMG SKYNET EVERY SINGLE TIME sort of problem we see in other sci-fi.. the problem is that Chaos corrupts, and Abominable Intelligences are very vulnerable.

No they're not. A Golden Age war-vessel sat in the very heart of the Maelstrom for several thousand years without the slightest trace of chaos corruption.

One iron-man example does not prove anything - especially when other AIs remain largely uncorrupted. (Mechanicum, Demon-world..., the above example - oh, and every single tomb-world anywhere)

The rumours about machine uprisings are just that - rumours, as far as we know, the real reason for the Age of Strife was the emergence of mass numbers of human psykers, and the warp storms and demonic infestations that went with that.

[Cykeisme]

You're right NecronLord, it was just that one time. Silly for me to think it the rule.

The Iron Men problem of ages past, then, was a batshit insane Skynet killbot-army rebellion on a massive scale, or something like that?
Is there more information on it?

[NecronLord]

You're right NecronLord, it was just that one time. Silly for me to think it the rule.

The Iron Men problem of ages past, then, was a batshit insane Skynet killbot-army rebellion on a massive scale, or something like that?
Is there more information on it?

Not really. It's all mythology.

All we know is that they're hated and reviled by the Imperium, and that the real cause of the age of strife was mass psychic awakening. Perhaps they started taking anyone with any psychic talent out and shooting them.

In truth, of course, it comes from the Dune origins of the 40K setting, where thinking machines were destroyed in the Butlerian Jihad, which was pretty much summed up as "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." One may hazard that something similar is the case with the Golden Age of Technology; but that's entirely speculative.

[Zor]

Bizzarely enough, this gives me the idea it would be interesting to have Codex: Iron Men. Have something about groups of fuctional dark age of technology war robots. And no, these ones never betreyed mankind or were corrupted by Chaos or any such bullshit. They are still loyal to mankind and fight against those things that threaten mankind (Chaos, Eldars, Orks and so forth), of course they think the same of the Imperium and so forth (and the Adeptus Mechanicus hates them for being AI Abominations and such) and their efforts to restore age of strife conditions often end badly for the people they try to liberate.

Zor

[Juubi Karakuchi]

No they're not. A Golden Age war-vessel sat in the very heart of the Maelstrom for several thousand years without the slightest trace of chaos corruption.

Where did you get this from? I'm quite intrigued.

[NecronLord]

No they're not. A Golden Age war-vessel sat in the very heart of the Maelstrom for several thousand years without the slightest trace of chaos corruption.

Where did you get this from? I'm quite intrigued.

The novel Demonworld.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

^Who is in command of that ship!? There are at least 1 or 2 Primarchs missing in the Eye of Terror if I recall.

[NecronLord]

^Who is in command of that ship!? There are at least 1 or 2 Primarchs missing in the Eye of Terror if I recall.

Arguleon Veq, a pre-Imperium human.

[Lost Soal]

^Who is in command of that ship!? There are at least 1 or 2 Primarchs missing in the Eye of Terror if I recall.

Arguleon Veq, a pre-Imperium human.

And allegedly the greatest Chaos Champion to ever live.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't think it's the same ZOMG SKYNET EVERY SINGLE TIME sort of problem we see in other sci-fi.. the problem is that Chaos corrupts, and Abominable Intelligences are very vulnerable.

No they're not. A Golden Age war-vessel sat in the very heart of the Maelstrom for several thousand years without the slightest trace of chaos corruption.

One iron-man example does not prove anything - especially when other AIs remain largely uncorrupted. (Mechanicum, Demon-world..., the above example - oh, and every single tomb-world anywhere)

The rumours about machine uprisings are just that - rumours, as far as we know, the real reason for the Age of Strife was the emergence of mass numbers of human psykers, and the warp storms and demonic infestations that went with that.

Wasn't there that super0Titan in "Dark Adeptus" though? I think that was a corrupted machine intelligence or something like that. And the Multus was corrupted/possessed itself in Daemon World. I think it depends alot on the nature/quality of the AI in question more than anything (Hell we know very little about the Slaughtersong itself... do we know for certain how representative of the "standard" of tech it was in the DaOT?)

And its not so much in my mind that AIs or machines are somehow intriniscally or innately at threat of possession as it is that the fact it MIGHT happen. I mean, its not really much different than how the Imperium deals with humans (Humans CAN get possesssed or corrupted, but that doesnt mean every human neccesarily WILL be. But the possibility they might is enough for the Imperium, at least.)

And in any case, it suffices as a pretext (and scare tactic) for the AdMech to retain as much of its monopoly a it can.

In truth, of course, it comes from the Dune origins of the 40K setting, where thinking machines were destroyed in the Butlerian Jihad, which was pretty much summed up as "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." One may hazard that something similar is the case with the Golden Age of Technology; but that's entirely speculative.

We dont know, in-universe, how wide-spread the actual belief may be. For all we know that excerpt with the "Iron men" and all related stuff may be restricted to only a (relatively) small part of the Imperium, rather than an Imperium-wide belief. And its possible even likely that some sort of Butlerian Jihad like events tok place SOMEWHERE in the galaxy during the Age of Strife (though again, not neccsearily with justification, since 40K humans can be downright insane without much provocation.)