nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by NecronLord »

StarshipTitanic wrote:The issue of approaching the Colony was obviously not gravity. The scout Raptor jumped in without knowing the proper place (and was almost smashed from debris) and Raptors, Raiders (I think), and Galactica itself have made jumps deep in gravity wells.

Are you seriously citing implied B5 jump drive capabilities from a scene set one million years after the show's main events to demonstrate the jump drive capabilities of an Omega? Bullshit, but irrelevant bullshit.
For the record, I'm fairly sure the various godawful games that are supposedly canon say that Sol was destabilised by EA jump tests in the Minbari War. It just took a million years to actually blow up. Stupid, no? Unfortunately, there's a lot of stupidity and wank that's supposedly part of the B5 canon.
You're completely ignoring the extreme secrecy and inaccessibility of the place, which were magicked away by Anders. If there were such a thing as a natural fortress in space the Cylons came pretty close.
Err... No. If Galactica had not needed to rescue Hera, they could have destroyed the entire cylon domestic population with one raptor strike. This is incredibly vulnerable. Given all the places they could have lived, that are just as secret (read, completely unknown), it's baffling.
Have you evidence of EA jump drive accuracy other than something inferred from Minbari ships? Because I'm merely assuming that the Cylon home planetoid can call upon more Raiders than merely two baseships worth.
Screenshots. Again, these fuckers decided to live in an almost literal glass house - we pretty much have a proverb to express what a terrible idea that colony was. And at the end of the series, their entire civillian population is dead, because they started throwing stones at the colonies, and were annihilated by one battlestar.

Sure, it'd make sense to have hundreds of raiders protecting the colony. It would also make sense to live somewhere where one raptor couldn't destroy your civilization. So we're back to 'do you have a picture to show how many raiders were deployed' - because if you don't, I'll have a go at producing one, but I can't say it'll be terribly high quality.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Uraniun235 »

NecronLord wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:Helo's gun throughout S1 was able to put pretty good-sized holes in Centurions. Then they retconned that for Season 2 so they could have the survival of the ship hinge on their limited supply of explosive rounds.
I never thought that was a retcon - presumably he had no reason to think they were in short supply when he loaded the gun, and would have just taken the best rounds available... I'll check...
He was able to fire multiple rounds in succession, which made rather large holes in Centurions for supposedly just being bullets.

The gun was originally supposed to be more Blade Runner-esque, if I remember right.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

StarshipTitanic wrote:Except they aren't against a planet. They're against this and they need to be here. I suggest you read up on exactly what the Cylon Colony is on the BSG wiki.
Fine, its not against a planet. I stand corrected. But if we're goign to be pedantic, has anyone actually DONE any scaling to determine the actual distance? Or are we supposed to guessf rom pretty pictures. I operate on numerical estimates when I can, not vague guesses, and if this whole "precision" thing is a big deal, I want to know for certain how fucking precise Galactica was, and how the hell this was determined.
That's not the same as hitting a moon-sized space station. The collision physics are completely different.
In case you didn't notice, I Was addressing the "White STar hitting an Omega destroying Omega" comment, I wasn't even addresisng whether or not the Omega can ram the station, since like with the whole "jump precision" issue the nBSG is utterly failing in the numerical category thus far.

But since you think ramming is such a big issue, why don't you provide evidence to back up your claim? checking the Wiki shows that Galactica rammed the thing, so I want to know WHY it would be different for an Omega. You've done calculations, I presume?
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

NecronLord wrote: As Connor has mentioned, hundreds of feet is the upper limit for EA jump point accuracy - Earthforce can maybe manage an order of magnitude less - which is more than enough to deposit an earthforce heavy cruiser into that area to begin the boarding, after using thousand mile range weapons to shoot its gun batteries.
A more specific and relevant example may be a battle that occurs in "And Now For a Word" - the Narn make a surprise ambush attack on a stationary CEntauri warship around B5, and the Narn ship practically jumped out on them at poitn blank range from what I can remember. Maybe I can ask Brian at Babtech to get me a small video of that - he's usually nice enough to do that.
According to JMS, jump engines operate inside stars, so the gravity probably won't matter.
In Season 4 "Endgame" I recall the Whitestar managed to open a jump gate inside Mar's atmosphere, just above the surface of the planet. Earlier in Season 3 (when it had to go off to destroy a rogue Shdow Ship EA had uncovered) it jumped into hyperspacee inside Jupiter's atmosphere, so its pretty much canon that gravity doesn't bug that. Its a matter of precision.

For the record, I'm fairly sure the various godawful games that are supposedly canon say that Sol was destabilised by EA jump tests in the Minbari War. It just took a million years to actually blow up. Stupid, no? Unfortunately, there's a lot of stupidity and wank that's supposedly part of the B5 canon.
I'm not conversant on "canon" in B5 nowadays, but the most I can remember of that is that Earth tried fiddling with Sol's radiation or something to mess with Minbari Jump points during the E-M war. That didn't work. I dont remember any "tests" like you describe. The only ones who can do something lik ethat were First Ones, and even then they couldn't really contrrol it (Some later Mongoose canon really upped the First One Wanking, trust me.)

Hell, the whole "you can desstabilize a star by using jump points" idea was pretty screwy to begin with, since its based on dodgy physics.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

NecronLord wrote:Agreed. However, given that Battlestar's guns usually (there's an explosive bullet sidearm in the pilot, that Helo carried, which obviously isn't) seem pretty modern (very recognisably modern) and there's no evidence of caseless or other variants, I'd expect their bullets are pretty much equal to various modern rounds.
Well the recoil issue will pretty much guarantee that unless they're rocket propelled (which doesnt sound likely).

Speaking of which, what do you mean by "explosive" - are they like expanding/fragmenting rounds, or rounds that actually have a bit of explosive in them?
They've fairly wide foot-pads, but even so, manage to perform adequately on what appears to be soft, loamy soil. Given that they generally seem quite loud when moving, I'd say they're more massive - but nothing like a ton. Of course, that's just a guess.
So its probably safe to assume they're not much more than several times the mass of a normal person, if that. I'll have to think how that might translate to calcs.

Mind you, I dont know how much it would matter, since triple digit KJ should be sufficient to burn even a fairly small hole through metal, unless we're talking some super-theramlly resistant material beyond what we know to exist or we know they're made of conventional stuff. (I'm assuming Iron.)
To be honest, we know that the 'bullet penetrates the hull and we all die' brainbug is, well, a brain bug, but that's the logic presented by JMS for using PPGs, IIRC.
JMS also thinks that you can destabilize stars by using jump points to suck offsome of its mass over a long period of time or some such as I recall. And that the nuclear stockpiles of Earth could render much of the planet uninhabitable, or something like that. I tend not to put 100% literal stock in much of the "behind the scenes" quotes related to B5.
Where's that incinerate quote from anyway? Are you sure it's not hyperbole?
It was discussed here. I did the analysis, and Mike asked the same thing. I took that into account this time around though.

IS it hyperbole or not? Good question. Given that its Franklin giving a diagnosis it could be argued its precise, w hich is generlaly why I weant with "Searing/cauterization" rather than definite cremation. You'd get a little cremation as a side effect, but it wouldn't neccesarily reduce the entire heart to ash. And you probably could cauterize the bone and surrounding areas to "fuse" it in some fashion. Hell, even if you assume just "boiling" the heartt (nevermind the path along it) you're going to be close to the triple digit KJ mark anyhow.

In any case, thats for a pistol round (and a rather compact one at that - we know larger pistols exist) so a rifle round would arguably be capable of higher/greater damage anyhow.
Yeah. But the station's security are cops, more than the marines this force would be carrying - the severed dreams guys all carried SMG-PPGs IIRC. We see various PPG-SMGs, and as has been pointed out, they can shoot through a fairly solid metal door - so they should be able to shoot through the weaker head armour of a centurion.
Ship to ship (or boarding actions) Are going to be confined spaces so I doubt you want to be carrying full-scale long arms. I really dont remember all of the Severed Dreams battle so I can't say how much of it we saw. And I dont remember Season 4 either when they took out the Vorlon (The only other immediate example of weaponry being used en-masse I can think of)

Why not the torso armor? is it many inches thick or something? And even if a single shot wouldn't, why not a burst of fire? We know the larger rifles are fully automatic (IE like the Centauri ones that fucked over Morden's Shadow Escorts in Into the Fire)
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Connor MacLeod wrote: Well the recoil issue will pretty much guarantee that unless they're rocket propelled (which doesnt sound likely).

Speaking of which, what do you mean by "explosive" - are they like expanding/fragmenting rounds, or rounds that actually have a bit of explosive in them?
Unknown. I watched 2*02 (cylons board galactica) the other day, and in that, head-shots to centurions tend to blast everything above the neck up in a neat little explosion. So I'm inclined to think they actually have RDX or something in there.
Ship to ship (or boarding actions) Are going to be confined spaces so I doubt you want to be carrying full-scale long arms. I really dont remember all of the Severed Dreams battle so I can't say how much of it we saw. And I dont remember Season 4 either when they took out the Vorlon (The only other immediate example of weaponry being used en-masse I can think of)
I checked out Severed Dreams yesterday. All the marines are equipped with either PPG long arms, or what looks to be some kind of grenade launcher (large vertical straight clip, wide barrel). We also see a couple of modified Steyr AUGs lying around after the battle, sickle-shaped clips and all.
Why not the torso armor? is it many inches thick or something? And even if a single shot wouldn't, why not a burst of fire? We know the larger rifles are fully automatic (IE like the Centauri ones that fucked over Morden's Shadow Escorts in Into the Fire)
The head is apparently the weak spot on them. Explosive shots don't do much to the chest armour, but drop them in one with a shot to the head.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

NecronLord wrote:Unknown. I watched 2*02 (cylons board galactica) the other day, and in that, head-shots to centurions tend to blast everything above the neck up in a neat little explosion. So I'm inclined to think they actually have RDX or something in there.
Probably, but even if they used say, ,a larrge slug like a .45, I doubt they could cram in more than a coupel grams of explosive tops. Going by the Mythbusters ep witht he exploding Pens (the one I cited for bolter analysis) that much explosive could blow apart a head, although you'd probably want at least some penetration to maximize the effect.
I checked out Severed Dreams yesterday. All the marines are equipped with either PPG long arms, or what looks to be some kind of grenade launcher (large vertical straight clip, wide barrel). We also see a couple of modified Steyr AUGs lying around after the battle, sickle-shaped clips and all.
Interesting.
The head is apparently the weak spot on them. Explosive shots don't do much to the chest armour, but drop them in one with a shot to the head.
I suppose that depends on how much explosive is in there, and whether or not it penetrateS (and if so, how far :P ) If the round doesn't penetrate, it might ricochet or bounce off and any explosive effects would be reduced (or possibly just even fail to detonate- the equivalent of a few grams of TNT would still have some fairly notiable effects methinks on anything it hit.)
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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The asteroid-mining idea I figured could either simply be a way to get a bunch of nukes in the area without anyone noticing, or a way to blackmail the Colony into handing over Hera. "Right now I have five 2-megaton nukes within a kilometer of your Colony, and you're telling me I have nothing left to lose by setting them off. Your race dies either way, Mr. Cavil."

Of course if you simply jump in and start fighting you're going to use missiles. I was brainstorming possible alternatives to the slugfest because I don't think the Agamemnon has a great chance of achieving the objective of getting Hera with such a slugfest.
Since when do Omegas carry around extra thrusters?
Are you joking?

Since when do Omegas carry nuclear missiles in canon? We are doing equal amounts of assuming as far as I can tell.
What is any of this going to do against the gigantic Colony?
Ask Racetrack. Apparently it just takes a nudge for the Colony to be in serious trouble.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Anguirus wrote:Since when do Omegas carry nuclear missiles in canon? We are doing equal amounts of assuming as far as I can tell.
Thier successors, the Warlock class certainly carry substantial missile armament - we see it in action in The Lost Tales - presumably these must be multi terajoule (IE, kiloton range) at least in order to be a worthwhile use of space, given the number of powerful energy weapons the Warlock also fields, and the heavy cruiser in the war carried two megaton warheads for something.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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NecronLord wrote:For the record, I'm fairly sure the various godawful games that are supposedly canon say that Sol was destabilised by EA jump tests in the Minbari War. It just took a million years to actually blow up. Stupid, no? Unfortunately, there's a lot of stupidity and wank that's supposedly part of the B5 canon.
Oh my, that is extremely stupid. Well thanks for the warning on B5 canon.
NecronLord wrote:Err... No. If Galactica had not needed to rescue Hera, they could have destroyed the entire cylon domestic population with one raptor strike. This is incredibly vulnerable. Given all the places they could have lived, that are just as secret (read, completely unknown), it's baffling.

Screenshots. Again, these fuckers decided to live in an almost literal glass house - we pretty much have a proverb to express what a terrible idea that colony was. And at the end of the series, their entire civillian population is dead, because they started throwing stones at the colonies, and were annihilated by one battlestar.
This is more of a sociological nitpick, but there isn't really a "domestic" Cylon population and not all Cylons were located there. And where's your jump drive accuracy evidence again or show me why your inference is better than mine.

Clarify whether a Raptor strike and a black hole are both necessary for destroying the Colony or just the Raptor strike? If a Raptor by itself could kill the Colony, then it doesn't really matter where the Colony is, right? The debris field could only increase the Colony's chances at survival. In fact, it did kill the Raptor pilots and almost killed the Raptor scout that found the Colony in the first place.
NecronLord wrote:Sure, it'd make sense to have hundreds of raiders protecting the colony. It would also make sense to live somewhere where one raptor couldn't destroy your civilization. So we're back to 'do you have a picture to show how many raiders were deployed' - because if you don't, I'll have a go at producing one, but I can't say it'll be terribly high quality.
Except by virtue of instantaneous Colonial/Cylon FTL there is no safe place to hide. The Colony wasn't even the most important location for Cylons; they had already lost the Resurrection Hub and therefore immortality. The Cylons guarded the Hub with two baseships and constantly jumped it to different locations but once the rebel Cylons and Colonials found the location it was dead. All one needs is a location and a nuke.

As I've said, there are about 100 Raiders visible immediately after the two sides declare a truce. That means the Colony started the battle with at least 100 Raiders. I got the picture from Hulu with some difficulty and all I have are crappy and SDTV recordings so I'm not even going to try to take mid-battle counts. I welcome your help with those.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Connor MacLeod wrote:Fine, its not against a planet. I stand corrected. But if we're goign to be pedantic, has anyone actually DONE any scaling to determine the actual distance? Or are we supposed to guessf rom pretty pictures. I operate on numerical estimates when I can, not vague guesses, and if this whole "precision" thing is a big deal, I want to know for certain how fucking precise Galactica was, and how the hell this was determined.
Pedantic? There's a big difference between a planet and a tricked out asteroid if the question is how close Galactica came.

Are you in the United States? Go to Hulu and look at about 0:23:45 in Daybreak Part II for an excellent "above" view of Galactica in relation to where it jumped. The "dock" certainly isn't wider than Galactica is long.
Connor MacLeod wrote:In case you didn't notice, I Was addressing the "White STar hitting an Omega destroying Omega" comment, I wasn't even addresisng whether or not the Omega can ram the station, since like with the whole "jump precision" issue the nBSG is utterly failing in the numerical category thus far.
Ok.
Connor MacLeod wrote:But since you think ramming is such a big issue, why don't you provide evidence to back up your claim? checking the Wiki shows that Galactica rammed the thing, so I want to know WHY it would be different for an Omega. You've done calculations, I presume?
Of course it's an issue if the Omega is expected to do exactly what Galactica did. Then again, it just occurred to me that the Omega can't reverse its way out of a ram to form a jump point so ramming probably isn't the best strategy.

But now I'm curious. Have any calculations been done on the Omega-Omega ram in "Severed Dreams" or the White Star-Omega collision later in the show?
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Anguirus wrote:The asteroid-mining idea I figured could either simply be a way to get a bunch of nukes in the area without anyone noticing, or a way to blackmail the Colony into handing over Hera. "Right now I have five 2-megaton nukes within a kilometer of your Colony, and you're telling me I have nothing left to lose by setting them off. Your race dies either way, Mr. Cavil."
Presumably a standoff like that would end with the Colony jumping away.
Anguirus wrote:Are you joking?

Since when do Omegas carry nuclear missiles in canon? We are doing equal amounts of assuming as far as I can tell.
Omegas have red-domed missile tubes along their hulls. We know EA ships 10 years prior to the Omega carried nuclear weapons. It's not that much of a stretch.
Anguirus wrote:Ask Racetrack. Apparently it just takes a nudge for the Colony to be in serious trouble.
Racetrack wasn't nudging pebbles at the Colony, she was shooting nuclear missiles.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Presumably a standoff like that would end with the Colony jumping away.
Possibly, but it is even easier to jump away from missiles being fired at long range (an Omega outside the debris field). With the mines, Sheridan at least can detect them spinning up and detonate (ships in Galactica-verse can tell when other ships are spinning up, first ep of season 4 has an example of this as does "Revelations").
Omegas have red-domed missile tubes along their hulls. We know EA ships 10 years prior to the Omega carried nuclear weapons. It's not that much of a stretch.
Are those confirmed missile tubes? If so, I suppose I stand corrected.
Racetrack wasn't nudging pebbles at the Colony, she was shooting nuclear missiles.
Kiloton nukes are not going to shift an installation of that size very far, and yet they still destabilized the orbit enough so that it almost instantly started hitting rocks and, according to RDM, the thing shortly thereafter fell into the singularity. I'd call that a "nudge."
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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NecronLord wrote:
Err... No. If Galactica had not needed to rescue Hera, they could have destroyed the entire cylon domestic population with one raptor strike. This is incredibly vulnerable. Given all the places they could have lived, that are just as secret (read, completely unknown), it's baffling.


The likelihood of a raptor strike getting through without Galactica to focus their attention and Anders to completely screw over their defenses aren't that great. In fact, with their observed sensor capabilties against nuke carrying vessels, I'd say they're pretty much non-existent.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Anguirus wrote:Possibly, but it is even easier to jump away from missiles being fired at long range (an Omega outside the debris field). With the mines, Sheridan at least can detect them spinning up and detonate (ships in Galactica-verse can tell when other ships are spinning up, first ep of season 4 has an example of this as does "Revelations").
Why would the Colony be more vulnerable to a mine than it would be to a missile? You think the Colony allows errant asteroids to slam into it for no reason, especially if some guy said he hid warheads in them? And EA sensors are not Cylon/Colonial sensors.
Anguirus wrote:Are those confirmed missile tubes? If so, I suppose I stand corrected.
I have no idea. They look like missile tube hatches to me. I've seen comments attributed to the Omega's designers that they are missile tubes. I know the EA uses missiles.
Anguirus wrote:Kiloton nukes are not going to shift an installation of that size very far, and yet they still destabilized the orbit enough so that it almost instantly started hitting rocks and, according to RDM, the thing shortly thereafter fell into the singularity. I'd call that a "nudge."
This response is nonsensical. You suggest that Sheridan should attach engines to asteroids to push them at the colony. I point out that there's no reason to use asteroids over nuclear missiles, especially since we saw the effective result of nuclear missiles. You go "Ah hah! Nukes work!" What is your point?

And anyway the nukes violently shifted the Colony in an obvious way in the footage. I suggest you rewatch it.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Ghost Rider »

So unless Starship starts producing a number versus "I don't have too!!!" this is going really quick down the shitter.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Connor MacLeod wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Unknown. I watched 2*02 (cylons board galactica) the other day, and in that, head-shots to centurions tend to blast everything above the neck up in a neat little explosion. So I'm inclined to think they actually have RDX or something in there.
Probably, but even if they used say, ,a larrge slug like a .45, I doubt they could cram in more than a coupel grams of explosive tops. Going by the Mythbusters ep witht he exploding Pens (the one I cited for bolter analysis) that much explosive could blow apart a head, although you'd probably want at least some penetration to maximize the effect.
The explosive rounds used in the Colonial sidearms are actually quite large. They're loaded into the underbarrel launcher on the gun.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

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Ghost Rider wrote:So unless Starship starts producing a number versus "I don't have too!!!" this is going really quick down the shitter.
For what? Scrolling up reveals...
I wrote:As I've said, there are about 100 Raiders visible immediately after the two sides declare a truce. That means the Colony started the battle with at least 100 Raiders. I got the picture from Hulu with some difficulty and all I have are crappy and SDTV recordings so I'm not even going to try to take mid-battle counts. I welcome your help with those.
Maybe that's what you meant by "number?" I don't have the tools or skills yet to go beyond anything much more complex than counting things on screen, which is why I've asked if anyone can provide to me data on Omega collisions. And I've already said my resources for Raider counts are limited. If you need me to say it in debate language then I formally concede everything (except obviously my post-battle Raider count, which is easily verifiable).

Now let's get on with learning about the show.
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Okay, I actualyl got around to watching what SST told me to watch and... that's fucking it??

From mym viewing of the scene this is the following:

1.) Yes, they do jump in very close. Its hard to actually judge given the shakycam, camera angles, and the generall darkness of everyhting (They seem to like dark and shadows, or maybe its just the quality of the clip) but maybe a 2 km range or so is likely - that's about as best as you're going to get though.

Mind you, this assume sthe Galactia is as large as I've seen some people claim, which is based on "out of universe" data. I've also heard they state a distance in the episode (a click or something) and if thats the case then the distance (an the Size of the Galactica) are going to be alot smaller.

As it is I'll give a pass on the demands for scaling since I doubt anyone else could have done a bette guess than I could without actually doign a frame by frame pixel scaling (and not even then.) But then again I better not be getting asked for anythig more precise either, since that would involve alot more work and I'll get pissed off.

2.) They can, for all I see, just sit there for seconds taking abuse while they wait for the defenses to get hacked (even though for some reason there's a deay in them TRYING to hack it, where they continue to take abuse.) They just sit there doing nothing while taking said abuse.

And for some reason the Colony doesn't launch fighters until AFTER their guns go down. I'm not entirely sure if there is a plausble reason for this given or just stupidity.

3.) They eventually DO ram the station, without noticably jarring it, ,but don't seem particularily damaged structurally, and the Colony doesnt even seem to be significantly moved by the station (Yet they are by nukes, which puzzles me to no end) I see nothing in this mind, that indicates an Omega would NOT be able to do that. Nothing about the station or the incident as described suggests it is exceptionally well armored or durable (or that its side is particularily thick - form what Ic an tell of the Galactica ramming it, its probably not very thick skinned OR structurally durable. Which if its meant to be hidden, may not be all that surprising)

Given the things an Omega HAS rammed, its quite possible they can pull off what the Galactica does and not be destroyed. If anything I'm certin they have to be careful NOT to ram it at too high a speed since there's a good risk they could end up knocking the station off axis.

Now, to establish the possible accuracies and distances a Jump point can accurately form...

Walkabout the episode, the Narn Cruiser comes out of a jump point practically on top of a shadow cruiser and manages to spear it just as it passes by pursing the white star (34:30 or thereabouts) - well within a few km of the target.

Also a Narn Cruiser in And Now for A Word comes out within a few km of a Centauri cruiser to do battle at 36:45 - indeed they come out within close range of B5 itself and they simply pass it by

The Narn and EA are roughly comparable in firepower, technology, etc. (and to the Centauri) in capability (indeed, much of EA tech is BASED on Narn/Centauri tech purchased during the various early Wars, like the E-M War) so its a reasonble benchmark.

other examples include the Agamemnon coming out right behind a Streib cruiser in "All Alone in the Night" which I can't find/check yet, and examples of the Centauri doing so (In the Beginning) - the Centauri are possibly a bit more advancecd than EA in some ways but they're not Dramatically more advancecd than the Narn and less so than the Minbari, so they're reasonably accurate as well.


All in all I don't see what the hell is supposed to be so special about what the Galactica did in that scene that is suppsed to be all that hard for anyone else to pull off, or why it has to be 100% as accurate as the Galactica. No, the Omega won't be coming out at a perfect stop a few km from the station, but they don't HAVE to come ot at that exact spot since its bloody unlikely they're just going to "sit there and take it" for seconds. you can come out at speed from a jump poit with weapons firing (it's been done before) and in the lnks above the accuracy is close enough for their purposes. Especially since the formation of the jump gate itself will arguably destroy anyhing nearby dangerous right on top of it (and possibly close by, but the exact damage mechanism of "proximity" I should note is debatable, since as I noted you can open it pretty close to the surface of Mars and not blast/melt/vaporize anything noticably.)

And given the siz of a jump point relative to a ship (the jump point itself is going to be kilometers across) inaccuracies are going to be less than a full diameter and an Omega, coming out at speed, can compensate esily (again they're not just going to sit there and take abuse.)

And its possible they'll have fighters deployed (which can supplement the defenses, or at least sufficient distraction - those cannon rounds aren't going out any worse han what B5 has demonstrated gunnery-wise)

And i anyone asks "why won't the cylons keep shooting with the ship close by" I can give a good reason for that - B5 ships can and nd will blow up catastrophically if you do that indiscriminately - either the weapons array (As established in Legend of the Rangers by G'Kar) taking too muh damage or a hit in the wrong location - or the reactors going up (Severed Dreams, ItB, etc.) and if the ship goes up in close proximity t the Colony the conlony is fucked. I assum ehte Cylons would at least know this beforehand, otherwise this is going to be impossible for the Cylons to win without killing themselves.

Hell, Sheridan could just as well openly proclaim that fact as a threat.

I am left wondering if we know exactly how many troops the colony itself has inside, sincee that's going to be a big factor in defense. The Omega could quite possibly (likely) carry more troopers overall, than the galactica could muster, and the only figures I get from the wiki or other are "hundreds" of which is unsourced.

I'll try to get a more precise PPG figure (for metal) by looking at the door scene.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Since ITB isnt up and I dont have it on DVD (I'll have to ask Brian if he can grab it and I'm lazy with email) this is the best I can come up with there:

B5tech's Sharlin scaling chart Scroll down some and you'll see images of a Nova ramming the War Cruiser - the bugger actually goes straight through and out the other side.

The only other bit is about 3 minutes into this clip[ showing the severed dreams battle. The hammerhead is mostly intact, but the explosions tend to muddle up the cacl because something does explode on contact rather than just strictly ramming (but they do remain more or less intact even with collision.)

For whatever its worth you can look here for another instance of collision analysis, (an asteroid from ItB), although I know its not universeally accepted. and my own calcs of the incident varied (order of magnitude or two - its been a long time since I did calcs like that.) but take it as you will.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:So unless Starship starts producing a number versus "I don't have too!!!" this is going really quick down the shitter.
For what? Scrolling up reveals...
I wrote:As I've said, there are about 100 Raiders visible immediately after the two sides declare a truce. That means the Colony started the battle with at least 100 Raiders. I got the picture from Hulu with some difficulty and all I have are crappy and SDTV recordings so I'm not even going to try to take mid-battle counts. I welcome your help with those.
Maybe that's what you meant by "number?" I don't have the tools or skills yet to go beyond anything much more complex than counting things on screen, which is why I've asked if anyone can provide to me data on Omega collisions. And I've already said my resources for Raider counts are limited. If you need me to say it in debate language then I formally concede everything (except obviously my post-battle Raider count, which is easily verifiable).

Now let's get on with learning about the show.
The poitn he's trying to make is that you're debating in an extermely lazy way. You've been around long enough to know the rules. you make a point, you are expected to be able to back it up. You didn't even provide a link to ME, all you did was "go look it up yourslef, here's where to go." Which puts an IMMENSE burden of time on me (It took me nearly two hours to dig through nBSG, rewatch it enough to try to figure out where it is, nevermind hunting through it, waiting for it to buffer and get through the commercials, and then write up my reply.. and THEN put together some information with regards to Omega Durability and Jump point precision.)

Like I said, I gave a pass on the scaling bit, but if it had been anyone else (Say mike) you probaby wouldn't have gotten away with it. And I'm not making a bigger deal about your being lazy simply because I didn't do it to begin with (if I had, I'd have been *much* harsher - I dont appreciate having to waste two hours in having to actaully argue my poitn and then d my opponent's research ON TOP OF THAT) and I'm still not being that thorough anyhow (IE I'm not going to expect you to scale it now but I ain't gonna do it either.)
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Connor MacLeod »

As for B5 starship firepower:

there

That should pretty much cover most of what we need to know.
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by Anguirus »

No, the Omega won't be coming out at a perfect stop a few km from the station, but they don't HAVE to come ot at that exact spot since its bloody unlikely they're just going to "sit there and take it" for seconds.
If you're familiar with the scenario, that's the only safe place to jump in in immediate proximity to the Colony. The area is like a blender, and there's a singularity at the bottom.

(Note: I am not not NOT an astronomy expert, all I'm going by are the statements in the episode: there is one tiny safe zone for ships to jump in and out, it's less than a klick away from the installation, and jumping into the system from outside the system to a point not in that safe zone results in the vessel sliding toward the singularity. EA ships also do not have high acceleration, as evidenced by the fact that they have no gravitic technology and yet people don't hit the wall when they go to flank speed.)

Why would the Colony be more vulnerable to a mine than it would be to a missile? You think the Colony allows errant asteroids to slam into it for no reason, especially if some guy said he hid warheads in them? And EA sensors are not Cylon/Colonial sensors.
1) It's not. However, this is a conceivable way to sneak nukes close to the colony, presuming that the bulk of the asteroid blocks the radiation from Cylon scanners.
2) No. However, if the Cylons don't see the nukes till they are in place, scrambling fighters means Sheridan pulls the trigger.
3) Cylon/Colonial sensors appear worse in most respects. I don't see why the EA couldn't detect the Colony spinning up presuming they had a little bit of intelligence. They can tell when ships are about to jump or fire weapons.

This response is nonsensical. You suggest that Sheridan should attach engines to asteroids to push them at the colony. I point out that there's no reason to use asteroids over nuclear missiles, especially since we saw the effective result of nuclear missiles. You go "Ah hah! Nukes work!" What is your point?
My point was initially that it doesn't take that much of a nudge, in the absolute sense, to destabilize the vessel's orbit, considering that very small missiles managed to do so. It is not much of a stretch to figure that larger bombs detonated in close proximity might also destabilize the orbit even if they don't kill it outright.

And because I feel like we are talking past each other, I will make this absolutely clear...the only reason to use nuclear mines is if Sheridan can get them close to the Colony without them being detected. Of course missiles are better in a slugfest, but I was exploring alternatives to a slugfest that John "Nuke 'Em" Sheridan might come up with. Just popping farther out in the system and shooting the Colony is a great idea, but the Colony can jump away, other Cylons can jump out to engage, and it doesn't get them Hera back. Cavil is only going to be willing to negotiate if he knows Sheridan has the upper hand...he's not going to be afraid of Sheridan's one capital ship unless it whips several basestars without a problem, which I'm not sure it can do. (AND he can't jump the Colony.)
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by StarshipTitanic »

Connor MacLeod: I think there's a lot of confusion here so I'm going to go through my posts and see exactly what has been said if that's ok with you.
StarshipTitanic wrote:Exactly how strong and large are these EA ships? They can't jump right on top of the colony, so they'll come in further out and in the heavy debris field. The EA ships will be under constant fire without Anders to disrupt Cylon defenses. Thousands of Raiders should shred Starfuries and pummel the capital ships. The only advantage the EA ships have, as far as I know, is the relative extreme range of their weapons but the small safe area around the colony eliminates that advantage.
My actual claims:
EA jump point accuracy isn't precise enough to match the Galactica.
The Omega will be under constant fire without an Anders there to disable the guns.
There are thousands of Raiders, which are more than enough to shred the Omega.
EA ships have a range advantage, which is not in contention.

Raiders and Anders

For this scenario, let's just give Anders to the Omega so we can focus on other things. For Raiders, I have already explained that I felt the Colony would have more Raiders than just two baseships but I have no proof so consider that claim dismissed.

I did however give the episode and approximate place in the episode for where about 100 Raiders are visible on screen, which is frankly better than some of the citations you've been giving me when you cite Babylon 5 at all. But in the interests of clearing up all confusion anyone can find the Raiders in Daybreak Part II at 0:50:00 which is immediately after the fifth commercial break at hulu.com. There are no DVDs yet for a screenshot so that's frankly the best I can do but if anyone has the footage from Sci-Fi HD for screenshots then please contribute them.

Omega Ramming Survivability

I asked about the strength and size of EA ships because I felt the opening post implied that an Omega would have to perform exactly what the Galactica did in the episode (ram a big station without exploding). I made no point whatsoever. I have no burden of proof to bear with regards to Omega ramming capabilities. Anguirus said something about Omegas not being strong enough to ram the Colony and you mentioned some Omega collisions. I pointed out that ramming the Colony isn't the same as the collisions that the Omega experienced and you rightfully pointed out that you weren't replying to whether or not the Omega could survive and then demanded something ridiculous:
Connor MacLeod wrote:In case you didn't notice, I Was addressing the "White STar hitting an Omega destroying Omega" comment, I wasn't even addresisng whether or not the Omega can ram the station, since like with the whole "jump precision" issue the nBSG is utterly failing in the numerical category thus far.

But since you think ramming is such a big issue, why don't you provide evidence to back up your claim? checking the Wiki shows that Galactica rammed the thing, so I want to know WHY it would be different for an Omega. You've done calculations, I presume?
Provide evidence that the physics is different? I didn't realize I had to point out the obvious to you. We're dealing with ships of different sizes, different profiles, different relative speeds and different accelerations. A child could see that the forces involved are not going to be the same from case to case. Visuals adequately demonstrate that a Battlestar is not an Omega and a Colony is not a White Star if you want to be a pedantic ass about it. That's why I never made claims regarding whether or not the Omega could survive. You just did.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Given the things an Omega HAS rammed, its quite possible they can pull off what the Galactica does and not be destroyed. If anything I'm certin they have to be careful NOT to ram it at too high a speed since there's a good risk they could end up knocking the station off axis.
Burden of proof is on you, Connor MacLeod. Give us the forces involved in the Omega-Omega, Omega-White Star, and Galactica-Colony collisions and show that the Omega collisions are similar to the Galactica's collision. Show us it is "quite possible."

Jump Point Accuracy

I'm out of time but I'll address this topic later.
Anguirus wrote:And because I feel like we are talking past each other, I will make this absolutely clear...the only reason to use nuclear mines is if Sheridan can get them close to the Colony without them being detected. Of course missiles are better in a slugfest, but I was exploring alternatives to a slugfest that John "Nuke 'Em" Sheridan might come up with.
You know, you're probably right. Let's just drop it then, shall we?
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Re: nBSG Force Sub: Final Battle

Post by DrStrangelove »

Anguirus wrote:he's not going to be afraid of Sheridan's one capital ship unless it whips several basestars without a problem, which I'm not sure it can do.
Let me get this straight, you dont think an Omega class destroyer; with numerous nuclear weapon yield energy weapons, is a threat to a basestar.

Which several are destroyed by galactica and pegasus throughout the series with decidedly non nuclear weaponry. Your logic here is odd
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