Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Well, it looks like GM is getting closer to the B word.
General Motors in 'intense' bankruptcy prep-source

NEW YORK, April 7 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in "intense" and "earnest" preparations for a possible bankruptcy filing, a source familiar with the company's plans told Reuters on Tuesday.

A plan to split the company into a new company made up of the most successful units, and an 'old company' of its less-profitable units is gaining momentum and is seen as the company's best configuration for the future, said another source familiar with the talks.

The sources asked for anonymity saying they were not authorized to speak on the record.

GM Chief Executive Fritz Henderson has said the company prefers to restructure out of court but could go to court if needed. GM declined to comment further.
We've been watching them circle the drain for months/years/decades now and it looks like we might be approaching the endgame for GM. I don't see Chrysler lasting much longer if GM goes down so I guess this answers the question of who will win the Car Wars. Ford is triumphant!

If GM goes under does that mean the UAW goes with it, or do they stay around sucking off the teat of Ford?
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Well, it looks like GM is getting closer to the B word.
General Motors in 'intense' bankruptcy prep-source

NEW YORK, April 7 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in "intense" and "earnest" preparations for a possible bankruptcy filing, a source familiar with the company's plans told Reuters on Tuesday.

A plan to split the company into a new company made up of the most successful units, and an 'old company' of its less-profitable units is gaining momentum and is seen as the company's best configuration for the future, said another source familiar with the talks.

The sources asked for anonymity saying they were not authorized to speak on the record.

GM Chief Executive Fritz Henderson has said the company prefers to restructure out of court but could go to court if needed. GM declined to comment further.
We've been watching them circle the drain for months/years/decades now and it looks like we might be approaching the endgame for GM. I don't see Chrysler lasting much longer if GM goes down so I guess this answers the question of who will win the Car Wars. Ford is triumphant!

If GM goes under does that mean the UAW goes with it, or do they stay around sucking off the teat of Ford?
Breaking GM into small pieces makes sense; I wonder why no one considers it with banks?
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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That worked swimmingly with Ma Bell.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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erik_t wrote:That worked swimmingly with Ma Bell.
Bell and GM's core businesses are so different, I don't think you can compare the two in that manner.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Master of Ossus »

erik_t wrote:That worked swimmingly with Ma Bell.
:roll:

Telecommunications is a natural monopoly with all manner of economies of scope and scale that strongly favor consolidation. Automakers once displayed that structure, but brands are now essentially independent all the way from design and engineering to manufacturing and parts acquisition. Moreover, since many of GM's brands target different consumer segments, it's entirely possible that some of them will be viable and profitable enterprises while some of them will not.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Master of Ossus wrote:Automakers once displayed that structure, but brands are now essentially independent all the way from design and engineering to manufacturing and parts acquisition.
Say what? I thought there was still significant use of common platforms by all the mass-market carmakers; sometimes they're even shared by multiple companies.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Master of Ossus »

Starglider wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Automakers once displayed that structure, but brands are now essentially independent all the way from design and engineering to manufacturing and parts acquisition.
Say what? I thought there was still significant use of common platforms by all the mass-market carmakers; sometimes they're even shared by multiple companies.
I'm sure there's still use of fundamental components just because it's less expensive, but it's not like Pontiac doesn't have engineers and manufacturing and labor and software and computers that are distinct from thoes of GMC (and, moreover, whatever advantages in scale and scope there are to designing two cars with similar components can easily be captured through contracts with other brands and through the same brand building multiple models of cars). It's far easier to run an independent car company than it is to run an independent telecommunications company that doesn't interconnect.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Patrick Degan »

Meanwhile, in the Theatre of the Absurd department:

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The Detroit Free Press
NEW YORK — Having conquered the world of passenger vehicles, General Motors Corp. showed off its vision of future transportation today that’s either exciting or frightening, depending on whether one cares about driving.

GM and Segway unveiled the Project PUMA, a two-seat rickshaw minus a rick that uses the Segway’s electric systems to glide around on two wheels. Capable of carrying 700 pounds in a frame about half the size of a Smart car, the PUMA (Personal Urban Mobility and Accessibility) can spin on a pin and “bows” to let passengers in and out.

The PUMA — a name that suggests someone at GM or Segway may be a hard-core Hillary Clinton supporter — can hit 35 miles an hour and travel 35 miles on a charge. The mockup vehicle had no creature comforts beyond seat belts, but GM vice president of research Larry Burns says the PUMA could “fundamentally change how we move around cities.”

GM envisions a real PUMA would be stuffed with electronics for constant communications among other vehicles that would handle much of the driving. GM showed off a video imagining how fully formed PUMAs would work – zipping around streets in perfect single file, using telemetry to avoid crashes, and bodywork that folds open like a mechanical egg, like a mashup of “Transformers” and “Paul Blart: Mall Cop.”

“Think Facebook on wheels,” says Burns, the first of several obligatory and stretched Internet references set for this year's New York International Auto Show.

Burns and Segway chief Jim Norrod gave an estimated price tag for a PUMA as one-sixth of what a car costs today. They declined to do the math, but we won’t: call it $4,000. Burns said the PUMA could also turn into a “fashion statement," with custom designs.

“They’re almost lifelike," he said. "The body gestures as it accelerates, and it bows down as it stops…It’s very polite."

Given GM’s current 53-day deadline by the Obama administration to cough up fresh cost cuts or head to bankruptcy court, the 18 months spent on developing the PUMA may seem like a waste.
NPR's All Things Considered programme had some coverage of this project on this afternoon's show. The PUMA is designed to zip about at around 35mph. This makes it not only too slow for driving on city streets but too fast (and bulksome) for sidewalks. GM executives, replying to these objections, said that their hopes lay in cities creating "special traffic lanes" to accommodate vehicles like the PUMA.

That isn't going to happen.

You also have to wonder at the market GM is aiming for with this scooter. The Segway hasn't exactly been a roaring success as it is and this thing doesn't bring enough of the advantages of a car, a motorcycle or even something like a Vespa to justify the price.

Nice to see that, even in the face of bankruptcy, GM still has plenty of time to spare for stupid decisionmaking in the boardroom.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by erik_t »

Master of Ossus wrote:
erik_t wrote:That worked swimmingly with Ma Bell.
:roll:

Telecommunications is a natural monopoly with all manner of economies of scope and scale that strongly favor consolidation. Automakers once displayed that structure, but brands are now essentially independent all the way from design and engineering to manufacturing and parts acquisition. Moreover, since many of GM's brands target different consumer segments, it's entirely possible that some of them will be viable and profitable enterprises while some of them will not.
Sure, it's possible. GM might well be viable as a collection of smaller brands. It might well be viable as a monolithic entity in ten years, if things went the right way. I'm not seeing that breaking GM into separate brands has any inherent purpose other than to, you know, break up GM. I've seen lots of arguments for "GM could still xxxxxxxxx if it were broken up, and here's why." I've seen very little credible "GM's problem of yyyyyyyyyyyy would be mitigated or solved if it were broken up, and here's why."

There's a pretty major distinction there.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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I like how everyone here like idiots are saying 'hurr hurr break 'em up' like some anti-UAW fanboys.

Do you have any idea about how much is shared between the brands?
Breaking up GM is completely impossible. Everything from car electrics to seat foam is shared- think before you speak.

Here's how to solve GM's woes in several easy steps.

1. Make sure a fucking bean counter isn't running the company.
2. Make sure a fucking bean counter isn't running the company.
3. Kill off half the dealerships, bring those that survive under DIRECT control of GM inc.
4. All of these surviving dealerships will now carry the entire GM product line, and only keep one or two of each model in stock.
5. Kill or sell Hummer.
6. Axe Buick and Cadillac down to 1-2 cars per brand.
7. Stop importing Daewoo crap and badging it as Chevy or Pontiac.
8. Chevy is now the no-frills cars division, Pontiac is the sporty division. Amalgamate the good saturns (i.e. Opel/Vauxhall) with either Pontiac or Chevy depending on class.
9. All trucks are now Chevy, GMC is made redundant.
10. Do something about the UAW- Ultimatums are in order.

This will solve the majority of the problems that GM has right now.
also, if they restructured in this matter as drastically, they are MUCH more likely to get bailout money.
The first two points refer to the fact that whenever GM has had a bean counter running the company, it ends up turning out unremarkable shit for the most part.
GM needs a John Z. Delorean or a Bob Lutz right now, not a fucking Wagoner.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Sephirius wrote:GM needs a John Z. Delorean or a Bob Lutz right now, not a fucking Wagoner.
Newsflash: Wagoner is gone. Bob Lutz is one of the key executives at GM, and has been for the last 8 years or so.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Master of Ossus »

erik_t wrote:Sure, it's possible. GM might well be viable as a collection of smaller brands. It might well be viable as a monolithic entity in ten years, if things went the right way. I'm not seeing that breaking GM into separate brands has any inherent purpose other than to, you know, break up GM. I've seen lots of arguments for "GM could still xxxxxxxxx if it were broken up, and here's why." I've seen very little credible "GM's problem of yyyyyyyyyyyy would be mitigated or solved if it were broken up, and here's why."

There's a pretty major distinction there.
If 100% of GM's brands are unprofitable then they have no chance to save the company, but if some of them are independently profitable then you can spin those off and save them even if the rest of the company collapses.
Sephirus wrote:I like how everyone here like idiots are saying 'hurr hurr break 'em up' like some anti-UAW fanboys.

Do you have any idea about how much is shared between the brands?
Breaking up GM is completely impossible. Everything from car electrics to seat foam is shared- think before you speak.
And couldn't be split into individual brands? I find that difficult to believe.

Edit: Just because you buy the same things from the same supplier doesn't mean that there's an economy of scale that couldn't be preserved with separate companies. Seat foam is a perfect example because it's a commodity. I don't know what you mean by "car electrics," since there are a heck of a lot of electronics that go into a car, but virtually all of those are also commodities and buying them for a single brand is not markedly worse than buying them for many brands. Things like drive trains, that have to be designed and are often shared by several brands, are far more significant but don't seem unmanageable because you'd presumably be concentrating the engineering talent in fewer companies which leads to higher cost but similar quality, and moreover because engineers at much smaller companies are able to produce and design these things without such a significant loss in scale as to compromise their profitability.
Here's how to solve GM's woes in several easy steps.

1. Make sure a fucking bean counter isn't running the company.
2. Make sure a fucking bean counter isn't running the company.
3. Kill off half the dealerships, bring those that survive under DIRECT control of GM inc.
4. All of these surviving dealerships will now carry the entire GM product line, and only keep one or two of each model in stock.
How is that going to help if they're up against competitors that offer many options and keep many of each model in stock? Granted, it would be necessary if they're trying to consolidate their dealerships because then they wouldn't have enough inventory space at individual dealers, but having several versions of each model in each dealership is a useful selling device because you can offer different packages to different customers.
5. Kill or sell Hummer.
No argument there. It has virtually nothing in common with the other brands.
6. Axe Buick and Cadillac down to 1-2 cars per brand.
Why not consolidate them? They both target the same market segment and neither is profitable.
7. Stop importing Daewoo crap and badging it as Chevy or Pontiac.
8. Chevy is now the no-frills cars division, Pontiac is the sporty division. Amalgamate the good saturns (i.e. Opel/Vauxhall) with either Pontiac or Chevy depending on class.
9. All trucks are now Chevy, GMC is made redundant.
10. Do something about the UAW- Ultimatums are in order.
They've already been doing 10, and the UAW still isn't budging (or do you think that the UAW is treating the current threat of bankruptcy as being overblown?).
This will solve the majority of the problems that GM has right now.
also, if they restructured in this matter as drastically, they are MUCH more likely to get bailout money.
The first two points refer to the fact that whenever GM has had a bean counter running the company, it ends up turning out unremarkable shit for the most part.
GM needs a John Z. Delorean or a Bob Lutz right now, not a fucking Wagoner.
Delorean couldn't get one version of one car made in a profitable manner. What chance would someone like that have of saving the company? IIRC, Lutz is a top-executive at GM, also, and he hasn't helped things very much.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Stark wrote:
This will solve the majority of the problems that GM has right now.
Explain how.
1-2. As explained in the above post. Bean counters are responsible for atrocities such as the cavalier and lest we forget Rick Wagoner's baby was the AZTEK.

3-4. Most of the problems that many people have are at dealership level. For instance: If you were to go to an Audi dealership, that dealership reports to AUDI. If you go to a GM dealership, they are nowhere near as accountable to their parent company as most other manufacturers. In the olden days, GM used to have dealers more like those of their competitors, that were VERY accountable, but as time has gone on and the dealers have become more bloated they started to become more powerful and less accountable to GM.
I will relate to you the story of my friend who tried to buy a 2004 GTO.

He wanted a 2004 GTO Black on Black, with a 6MT. He had 30 Grand in cash ready to go to buy said car. Every dealer he went to tried to sell him something he didn't want- either the wrong colour, or an AT car, and NONE of them would take his cash up front. Worse yet none of them would even bother to order the car from GM for him unless he financed for something rediculous like 96 months at 3+%. For a car with a sticker of ~30 000, you can see he said no fucking way. When trying to complain to GM directly about it, he was informed several times that 'they would take it up with the dealer' or 'need substantiation to prove their claims' and basically told him 'no, we won't sell you a car, go to your dealer.'
So he bought a used Jaguar XK8 instead.
I repeatedly hear tales of this sort of dealer mistreatment among my age group as one of the defining reasons as to why they would never set foot in a GM dealership again- be it an example of a dealer trying to take them to the cleaners as above or generally being dicks because they happened to be younger car buyers that were looking for something in a higher price bracket than an entry level car.
(I myself was once turned down to be allowed to test drive a G8 GT for the fact that I am under 25- despite the fact that I was factfinding for my family. I walked out when they let some asshole go out alone just cause he was 40+ ).

4. This ensures that there is no longer a large overhead of cars at dealers 24/7 waiting to be sold, as well as ensuring that there is a test driver car for that model as well as a potential sale one for on the spot sales (doesn't happen as often as you might think.)

5. Should be fairly self explanatory, just by doing this GM can win in terms of money saved as well as the 'green' and 'modernizing' PR they can get off it.

6. Buick is quite a niche brand, and only profitable in the chinese or pensioner markets. (You can't kill off or consolidate them because for some reason Mainland China has a huge hardon for Buick, but not caddy. Go figure.) Cadillac is likewise a niche brand due to the relative expense of the cars- keep it as a halo brand, don't make cheap cars to fill up the lineup like they're doing now. Buick should be the midrange luxury segment and Cadillac the high-end luxury. This establishes a proper brand hierarchy that people can more easily ascertain than a bunch of buicks and caddies all competing for the same market segment as they are now.

7. Doing this cheapens the brands and GM's image as a whole- Imagine you are a first time buyer. You buy a rebadged Daewoo as a Chevy. You don't know cars and hence do not know that it is infact a Daewoo and not a Chevrolet. The Daewoo is crap. Do you ever buy Chevy or GM again? Didn't think so.

8. This hearkens back to a past time when the brands were more well defined than they are now- and GM was much more successful. It also limits cross-platform competition, which as we know from British Leyland is a horrible thing. (Austin Allegro et al.)

9. Again, saves on trimmings, limits brand competition etc. I should focus this point more though- standard pickups and whatnot should remain chevy, whereas the more industrial vehicles will be GMC.

10. Basically tell the UAW to agree to wages inline with other firms in North America or get stuffed, something along those lines. I'm sure with the help of Obama and other politicos this could be much easier than most people make it out to be.

I hope this clarifies my reasoning for you Stark.

Addendum: "On February 9, 2009, GM announced that Lutz would be stepping down on April 1, 2009 from his position as Vice-Chairman of Global Product Development, to take an advisory role. He will retire from GM at the end of 2009. Lutz said that one reason for his decision was the increasing regulatory climate in Washington that would force him to design what Federal regulators wanted, rather than what customers wanted."

And Ossus, if you're referring to the Chevy Vega, it's a bad example, everyone involved in the production of that car hated it, it was a product of the bean-counters trying to compete with the Japanese imports, and was doomed to failure as like the Aztek it was a car that tried to hard to appeal to everyone and therefore turned everyone off it.

EDIT: Also, I was using Wagoner as an example of someone who does the bloody Finance -> CFO -> CEO route.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Master of Ossus wrote:
erik_t wrote:Sure, it's possible. GM might well be viable as a collection of smaller brands. It might well be viable as a monolithic entity in ten years, if things went the right way. I'm not seeing that breaking GM into separate brands has any inherent purpose other than to, you know, break up GM. I've seen lots of arguments for "GM could still xxxxxxxxx if it were broken up, and here's why." I've seen very little credible "GM's problem of yyyyyyyyyyyy would be mitigated or solved if it were broken up, and here's why."

There's a pretty major distinction there.
If 100% of GM's brands are unprofitable then they have no chance to save the company, but if some of them are independently profitable then you can spin those off and save them even if the rest of the company collapses.
I agree. However it's difficult to tell how those different product lines and brands interact, so to speak. To present a simplified example: I bet airlines have a larger profit margin on first-class seats, but an all-first-class airline would not work in most markets. It's not quite as simple as a loss-leader in retail, but the potential exists for considerable interaction between products.

It's not clear to me (or, I bet, anyone who doesn't work in the auto industry day-in and day-out) how feasible it is to spin off some brands and keep others. We don't know enough about the interaction between product lines. I do not mean to suggest the idea of a breakup should be rejected out of hand; only that splitting into separate brands does not confer some kind of automatic improvement in profitability.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Master of Ossus wrote:
They've already been doing 10, and the UAW still isn't budging (or do you think that the UAW is treating the current threat of bankruptcy as being overblown?).
Most definitely. Same thing happened with BL, and no one played hardball with them until it was too late.

Too many UAW or CAW people see the bailout as inevitable due to the catastrophic effect that GM dying would have on the American Economy.
Also, too many politicos are UNDERESTIMATING how bad it would be if the company did go under, basically setting up conditions for something awful in the future.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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erik_t wrote:However it's difficult to tell how those different product lines and brands interact, so to speak. To present a simplified example: I bet airlines have a larger profit margin on first-class seats, but an all-first-class airline would not work in most markets. It's not quite as simple as a loss-leader in retail, but the potential exists for considerable interaction between products.

It's not clear to me (or, I bet, anyone who doesn't work in the auto industry day-in and day-out) how feasible it is to spin off some brands and keep others. We don't know enough about the interaction between product lines. I do not mean to suggest the idea of a breakup should be rejected out of hand; only that splitting into separate brands does not confer some kind of automatic improvement in profitability.
I don't think it would increase the profitability of the company as a whole, but it would isolate the profitable segments from the non-profitable ones. It's fair enough that it's not totally clear how the brands interact and how much they share, but I think we can leave that to GM: "Find out which of your brands you can save, if any, and spin them off." I also don't see any structural issues in the industry that make it better to run a single giant company like GM, rather than individual brands as separate, smaller, and more focused companies.

@Sephirius: I think you're underestimating the union's stubborness. I don't think there's any serious question that the union contracts have crippled GM (and Ford, and...), but I don't see any willingness on the part of organized labor to negotiate. They're also not the ones being hauled in front of Congress. But regardless, I think they have to realize how close GM is to folding entirely, now, and the silence on their part is deafening.

Also, the car that DeLorean failed to manage was... his namesake. The DeLorean. It was a disaster at every level, and frankly it can be traced directly to John DeLorean's very poor management skills. He might've gotten better since the early 1980's, but he doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that he can run a company of anywhere near the size and complexity of GM.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Master of Ossus wrote: Also, the car that DeLorean failed to manage was... his namesake. The DeLorean. It was a disaster at every level, and frankly it can be traced directly to John DeLorean's very poor management skills. He might've gotten better since the early 1980's, but he doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that he can run a company of anywhere near the size and complexity of GM.

Gotten better? Uhhh. . . .John DeLorean died in 2005. It's safe to say that nobody's going to be having him run a company without the ability to reanimate the dead.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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General Zod wrote:Gotten better? Uhhh. . . .John DeLorean died in 2005. It's safe to say that nobody's going to be having him run a company without the ability to reanimate the dead.
Touche, but the main point stands: GM needs a legitimately capable executive; not a designer whom makes cars people think look cool.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

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Master of Ossus wrote:Touche, but the main point stands: GM needs a legitimately capable executive; not a designer whom makes cars people think look cool.
True, but even that would be a start. Instead you got rolling monstrosities like the Pontiac Aztek... but then, much criticised as that is at least it doesn't invoke a feeling of morbid obesity, the way most of your SUV and pickup designs do.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Glocksman »

I'm in the market for either a late model used or inexpensive new car, and due to my last experience with a used dealer car (I would have wound up paying $3000 for repairs in less than 2 years after purchase except for the add on 2 year Toyota* used car warranty).

Bad luck can happen to anyone though and since I have had little trouble out of the car since the warranty expired in 2002 until the last year, I'm perfectly willing to buy another recent year low mileage GM car.

My problem is that when I went to a local Chevy dealer who had a 2005 Chevy Malibu that was GM Certified with a 12 month/12k 'bumper to bumper' warranty with only 44k miles listed on the GM Certified website for $7990, the salesman said that 'certification was extra' when I mentioned the GM Certified warranty and said that I'd have to talk to his manager about the fact that it was already listed on the GM website with the warranty included at the quoted price.

While I was willing to overlook the less than perfect interior (cigarette burns and liquid stains in the upholstery) and exterior (scratches in the paint and a perforation in the vinyl cover over the rear bumper) for that lower price, I didn't like the salesman trying to pressure me NOW into signing for the car despite my clearly telling him that I was just looking right now because in less than 3 months I'll have $4000 or more for a down payment on a decent used car.

Not to mention the SOB trying to charge me extra for a warranty that was already built into the car's asking price. :evil:

Compare that $8k price for a low mileage crap cosmetic condition car to another local dealer having both several low mile 2008 Chrysler PT Cruisers in stock that had less than 25k miles and were still under the factory 3/36 warranty listed for $9990 and also had 3 2008 Mitsubishi Galants with 30k or so miles that still were covered under the factory 5/60k bumper to bumper warranty listed for $11,990.

Ethics aside, if I were a used car salesman, the instant a 'mark' mentioned seeing a price for a certified used car on both my lot's website and the manufacturer's used car certification website, I wouldn't have said a word about certification and warranty costing a dime above the posted price.

As it is, this salesman has just about convinced me to go over to Expressway Mitsubishi in a couple of months and get a 2008 Galant with most of its factory warranty left.

I'm not comfortable with buying a foreign brand car, but at least the Galants are assembled here in the USA at the former DiamondStar joint venture plant.
Aside from the 'meh' reliability reputation that PT Cruisers have, I also don't care for the fact that they're assembled in Toluca, Mexico.

Though of course if I can get a used low mile 2008-09 Cobalt in a few months for around 10k, that will deserve a look as well.

I guess my point is that from a personal POV, a large part of GM's problems have more to do with the asshats working in their dealer network than they do with the cars themselves.
Unless the salesman at Expressway Mitsubishi tries to sell me a $2k 'warranty transfer' or some other such bullshit of course.
At that point if we had a decent pubtrans network here in town, I'd just as soon give up on owning a car and spend the money to buy a Suzuki Burgmann 650 for trips in good weather and ride the bus the rest of the time. :evil:



*The car was an Oldsmobile, but had less than 60K miles when I bought it in early 2000 and was purchased from the 'pre owned' lot the local Toyota dealership ran.
Hence the actual provider of the 2 year/24k warranty on this 1992 GM car was Toyota. :D

God knows they lost money on the deal after paying to repair/replace the water pump, master cylinder, a set of rear wheel bearing assemblies, the alternator, a rear brake rebuild brought on by the leaky rear wheel bearings, and a new ignition cylinder switch after the original one locked up and wouldn't start the car.
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D.Turtle
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by D.Turtle »

The best bailout for GM and and so on is immediately implementing a socialized health-care system, improving the benefits of social security, thereby removing the health and pension costs to GM and making them cost-competitive.

If you do not remove the roots of the problem, you will only have to bail them out later again. Alternatively, you can let them go bankrupt also removing those costs, but depriving the people who payed for those pensions and health-care benefits of the same.

At the moment, it looks like the second will be done by default, because the democrats (especially in the Senate) are still too scared to take proper drastic measures.
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by General Zod »

Master of Ossus wrote:
General Zod wrote:Gotten better? Uhhh. . . .John DeLorean died in 2005. It's safe to say that nobody's going to be having him run a company without the ability to reanimate the dead.
Touche, but the main point stands: GM needs a legitimately capable executive; not a designer whom makes cars people think look cool.
Sure, wasn't contesting that. Just pointing out it was kind of funny talking about DeLorean in the present tense. :)
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Master of Ossus »

General Zod wrote:Sure, wasn't contesting that. Just pointing out it was kind of funny talking about DeLorean in the present tense. :)
Yeah, and I hadn't realized he was dead. There must be a "rolling over in his grave" joke, here, somewhere... :)
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Re: Everybody Get Ready for the Big Flush (GM)

Post by Solauren »

I found that the dealerships are the problem, marking up the prices.

Case in point; Caius and i were looking for a car, and we went to a few dealerships.

One dealership, which was owned directly by GM, the salesmen was nice, no preasure, was within sight but not looking over your shoulder. Unfortunately, they didn't have any cars we liked.

Most of the other dealerships, new especially, it was like buzzards attacking fresh meat. Buzzards in expensive suits and with rings comparable to a low-end rappers bling.

We ended up going with the used car dealer that had cars we liked, but the 'no preasure, seen but not looking over your shoulder' approach.


That problem is a major part of the problem; Car dealerships living up to the '(used) cars salesmen' stereotype.
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